The First Redcafe Sheep Draft

Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I think you are missing the point here. It's not a debate on Cannavaro vs Sammer, but on impact on fullbacks vs a libero/DM to my team. And the fact that we have much more fullbacks on offer in the pool than libero/DM's make it a probability game, that favours us!
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Jaysus man :lol: I said the same thing!

Re-read what I said - I agree with you on the Sammer pick (or Thuram), as you needed that position more.

What I disagreed with is Sammer being considered a superior footballer than Cafu. It was just an off the cuff remark and I didn't expect to generate this level of discussion really.
 
Brwned said:
What we disagree on is the idea that Cafu was better as a fullback than Sammer as a defender. Ergo Cafu was the better player, essentially. I don't get that at all. And I didn't say he was the second best anything?! I did say he was the best in his position since Scirea and that happens to be a role that is essential to this team but it seems we agree on that.

What you're talking about with Thuram necessitates a fundamental change in system. A defence with three stoppers in that trio is much more defensive in nature and not what we're going for at all. Lucio being good on the ball is neither here nor there as he isn't capable of playing as a sweeper and that position is key in this setup.
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Noo, I mean that I wouldn't call him the second best at anything - as in I wouldn't class him as the second best at a particular thing. I know that you didn't say he was the second best at anything! That would be ridiculous.

Hmm you've gone more narrow than I did in your description of him as the second best. For example I used Nesta as an example of a better defender who has played in a back three, but of course he plays the role nothing like Sammer would. If you mean as a real libero then yeah it's a fair shout, but as I said its a really rare position and there isn't huge recent competition there.

Yup Lucio changes it completely. It's not necessarily worse though, its a more typical back three I think.
 
Theon said:
Noo, I mean that I wouldn't call him the second best at anything - as in I wouldn't class him as the second best at a particular thing. I know that you didn't say he was the second best at anything! That would be ridiculous.

Hmm you've gone more narrow than I did in your description of him as the second best. For example I used Nesta as an example of a better defender who has played in a back three, but of course he plays the role nothing like Sammer would. If you mean as a real libero then yeah it's a fair shout, but as I said its a really rare position and there isn't huge recent competition there.

Yup Lucio changes it completely. It's not necessarily worse though, its a more typical back three I think.
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Why are we talking about second best anything?! Why has ranking come into the conversation? Cafu being the second best fullback of all time and Sammer being the 4th best libero of all time is neither here nor there, surely? It doesn't mean Cafu was the better player as far as I'm concerned.

Not sure I agree with you on the more normal setup. If we're talking about throughout football history then I disagree completely. If we're talking about in recent years then I still don't really agree. Not every side has a libero but the vast majority have a sweeper flanked by two stoppers and that has been a constant over the years in my view. That's why Sanchis would have to have played instead of Lucio as far as I'm concerned.
 
Brwned said:
Why are we talking about second best anything?! Why has ranking come into the conversation? Cafu being the second best fullback of all time and Sammer being the 4th best libero of all time is neither here nor there, surely? It doesn't mean Cafu was the better player as far as I'm concerned.
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:lol: I was sure you brought it up?! It says you edited it so did you change 'second best' to 'best'?

This is where I got the second best stuff from anyway,

Brwned said:
Sammer was only the second defender to win the Ballon d'Or (with the other of course being Beckenbauer) which alone should be evidence enough of his pedigree. He was the best player of the last 20 years in the role
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I read that as second best, presuming you meant Scirea or maybe Baresi as being better.

If you didn't edit it then I just misread :lol:
 
Nope, edited in a bit after that (I always do!) but that was always just about him being the next defender after Beckenbauer to win it!
 
Brwned said:
Nope, edited in a bit after that (I always do!) but that was always just about him being the next defender after Beckenbauer to win it!
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Fair enough then, the second best stuff looks pretty daft now!

It doesn't change too much of what I was saying really, just substitute second best to best and the arguments are the same. So with the Nesta example I'd still prefer him in a back three ahead of Sammer, and consider him a better defender, but he would clearly not play the role the same way as the German - and the Italians of course defended differently in 2000.
 
If you're saying that you would go for Nesta over Sammer when you have two stoppers in the side already then I think you're mad and I doubt many would agree with you. Sammer can have a transformational effect in such a scenario and completely define how the team plays, making it fluid, versatile and cohesive while Nesta just makes it a stronger defence. I reckon you're underrating Sammer.
 
Brwned said:
If you're saying that you would go for Nesta over Sammer when you have two stoppers in the side already then I think you're mad and I doubt many would agree with you. Sammer can have a transformational effect in such a scenario and completely define how the team plays, making it fluid, versatile and cohesive while Nesta just makes it a stronger defence. I reckon you're underrating Sammer.
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I'm saying that Nesta was the better player. Which one I would choose is neither here nor there and depends on the rest of the players.

If I had a back three with Maldini and Thuram already in it, then of course I would go with Sammer because you really are getting diminishing returns when the defence is that good already.

If I had two normal level footballers then I would go with Nesta. If I was picking blindly I would also go with Nesta.
 
2 of my players gone in the first 3 picks.. :lol: Still not enough to win!
 
God, this reads like Theon has got into an argument over Sammer, Cafu, Thuram, Nesta and whatnot... The beauty with ignore is you can imagine both sides reading just the more sensible one. Neuron-saver.
 
Now my pick... you feckers have left it for me to choose... Mmmmm...

One option has more voter kudos, the other is probably the better fit long term. Do I have a long term though? :(
 
Not sure what antohan is talking about with Pol being happy with that pick. Pol has a great team but could really do with an upgrade to Gallas at right back and Cafu/Thuram were the obvious options.

The pool at centre back is much deeper.

Cutch said:
Gio will be loving this
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How come?
 
Theon said:
I'm saying that Nesta was the better player. Which one I would choose is neither here nor there and depends on the rest of the players.

If I had a back three with Maldini and Thuram already in it, then of course I would go with Sammer because you really are getting diminishing returns when the defence is that good already.

If I had two normal level footballers then I would go with Nesta. If I was picking blindly I would also go with Nesta.
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Well that's where we disagree. I'd have Nesta as the better player but not by much and if I was given a blank slate and told that I could only choose one with the intention of building a three man defence I'd go for Sammer. What he offers is unique in this draft whereas many players can do what Nesta does, just to a lesser degree. And that's even more true in the case of Cafu. Sammer is the better player in every way for me.
 
Brwned said:
Well that's where we disagree. I'd have Nesta as the better player but not by much and if I was given a blank slate and told that I could only choose one with the intention of building a three man defence I'd go for Sammer. What he offers is unique in this draft whereas many players can do what Nesta does, just to a lesser degree. And that's even more true in the case of Cafu. Sammer is the better player in every way for me.
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The Nesta comments are off track really, I think he is a better defender than Sammer but it's not too important. Sammer is of course a better option for libero and if you want a player to do that you would pick Sammer, if you wanted a normal defender then Nesta is the better option - in a back three or in a two. There isn't a need for a Sammer type of player in a back three and the vast majority of teams don't use one.

Me and TITO were weighing up a Montero -- Ferrara -- Thuram back three but decided against it in the end. That would have been a good set up, just improving on the Juventus back three from the 90's and putting Thuram in his best role from his days at Parma.

Where we disagree is really on Cafu/Zanetti who I don't think are lesser players than Sammer. It is a lesser role so going for Sammer was the better choice, but I don't think he can be considered a better player than the others. You don't get a right back better than those two - its the pinnacle of the position IMO. Cafu I think splits opinion more than Zanetti so maybe the latter would have been a better example. I agree that what Sammer offers is unique in this draft and that he was the right pick.

It's an interesting point though and I have kind of changed my mind slightly. You are right that the importance of the position does have a big impact on how useful/great the player is. I'm not sure what I think of that but its no doubt true.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow : 1. Matthias Sammer
Cutch: 1. Kaka
Thisistheone 1. Cafu
Pippa: 1. Vieira
antohan: 1. Thuram
Gio 1. Kohler
Polaroid 1. Busquets
VivaJanuzaj

@VivaJanuzaj
 
Really sorry for delaying this, guys.

Edgar Allan Pillow : 1. Matthias Sammer
Cutch: 1. Kaka
Thisistheone 1. Cafu
Pippa: 1. Vieira
antohan: 1. Thuram
Gio 1. Kohler
Polaroid 1. Busquets
VivaJanuzaj 1. A. Cole 2. Effenberg

@Polaroid
 
Edgar Allan Pillow : 1. Matthias Sammer
Cutch: 1. Kaka
Thisistheone 1. Cafu
Pippa: 1. Vieira
antohan: 1. Thuram
Gio 1. Kohler
Polaroid 1. Busquets 2. Cannavaro
VivaJanuzaj 1. A. Cole 2. Effenberg

@Gio
 
Theon said:
Didn't predict that pick
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I wouldn't mind Thuram/Cafu but they were taken, not so lucky this time:lol:
The one-touch interplay between Zidane-Redondo-Busquets will be awesome

antohan said:
Wow. Pol passed on Rio-Vidic/Stam?
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Tempted to pick Stam/Vidic as a United fan but Cannavaro is better than both. Mind over heart this time. Reckon there will be quite a few who will bang on about Vidic's lack of pace too.
 
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