From what I have read in a book called the history of Brazil at World cup long ago, he was pretty hard working. Jose would have loved him.
Zagallo relied a good amount on him for steel in midfield post 1970.
The Fifth Redcafe Sheep Draft Round 1 - 2mufc0 vs. Invictus/Ecstatic
- Thread starter green_smiley
- Start date
From what I have read in a book called the history of Brazil at World cup long ago, he was pretty hard working. Jose would have loved him.
Zagallo relied a good amount on him for steel in midfield post 1970.
OK if you ignore the TOT awards let's go by public and professional opinion, Carvajal is the best right back in the world and for good reason at the moment you don't get to that position by being a liability. Ronaldinho is a tricky customer but Dani has help from Simeone and if he beats him he has Fabio to confront him. Do not agree about him being a defensive liability esp in a wing back position.
Good luck to both. Hope to read more once am back online in a few hours.
If Valencia was in that RM team, he would have been the best RB in the world.
Winning stuff gets you lots of glory. Sometimes not fully deserved.
Obviously not calling him a sheep and he serves the attacking purpose here, but I just don't rate him that highly defensively considering what I have watched.
Not to forget, adding Dinho+Zambrotta to the context.
In isolation I can see where you're coming from although I do think you are underrating Jack's abilities. Remember though he has two cultured defenders playing alongside him to offset some of his deficiencies. Jack was your "nothing gets past" type of defender and in the era he came from that was not metaphorical.
Sorry don't buy that, Carvajal can actually cross the ball.
Haha, lets agree to disagree
I forgot how much I hate Ecstatic's colourful spam, tempted to vote for 2mufc just because of it
Now, I know why you systematically vote against my team in the drafts
Curious to know how he could explain why Carvajal has apparently 13 caps with Spain.
I do? Interesting. Maybe I do, but it's not a conscious thingNow, I know why you systematically vote against my team in the drafts
edit: nah, checked the last 2 games that I found, 1 for, 1 against.
I do hate the unnecessarily long copy-pastes with colourful formatting though
Ok, @Ecstatic needs a breather, and I can't be nearly as active so this is more of a dump post.
What I find interesting is that Varela's role is being questioned repeatedly in terms of the narrative, but there are no mentions of Simeone vs. Zico - which is a very, very tough assignment. Yes, Simeone has a bit more defensive cover - but Zico has more weapons alongside or ahead of him - numerically, it evens out - plus, I can envision both Jack Charlton and Carvajal having a torrid time vs. Jairzinho + Ronaldinho, and Zambrotta when he surges up the left channel in the absence of attacking threats down that part. Another interesting observation is the tactical advantage argument...when wingbacks are critical to a 523, and Júnior wasn't exactly Facchetti or Cabrini in terms of manning a flank alone and mostly operated up until the half-way line - same thing happens with Marzolini or Schnellinger in these drafts, as an example - though they were admittedly a tad bit more reserved, and Carvajal faces the brunt of Ronaldinho + Zambrotta. Can't quite fathom how Bobby Charlton (who's going to obviously accrue a handful of scan votes on a United board, btw) will be harder to stop than Zico. And the latter can link up with Jairzinho and Ronaldinho through the right or left side as well. It's like Chumpitaz, Perfumo and Schulz (all three a couple tiers above Jack Charlton) don't exist for our team against an attack that will rely overwhelmingly on Eusébio and Charlton, and is more constricted and less eclectic by comparison
What I find interesting is that Varela's role is being questioned repeatedly in terms of the narrative, but there are no mentions of Simeone vs. Zico - which is a very, very tough assignment. Yes, Simeone has a bit more defensive cover - but Zico has more weapons alongside or ahead of him - numerically, it evens out - plus, I can envision both Jack Charlton and Carvajal having a torrid time vs. Jairzinho + Ronaldinho, and Zambrotta when he surges up the left channel in the absence of attacking threats down that part. Another interesting observation is the tactical advantage argument...when wingbacks are critical to a 523, and Júnior wasn't exactly Facchetti or Cabrini in terms of manning a flank alone and mostly operated up until the half-way line - same thing happens with Marzolini or Schnellinger in these drafts, as an example - though they were admittedly a tad bit more reserved, and Carvajal faces the brunt of Ronaldinho + Zambrotta. Can't quite fathom how Bobby Charlton (who's going to obviously accrue a handful of scan votes on a United board, btw) will be harder to stop than Zico. And the latter can link up with Jairzinho and Ronaldinho through the right or left side as well. It's like Chumpitaz, Perfumo and Schulz (all three a couple tiers above Jack Charlton) don't exist for our team against an attack that will rely overwhelmingly on Eusébio and Charlton, and is more constricted and less eclectic by comparison
Great to see your contributions about Charlton. I rate both players. Top credentials.
The debates should be more focused on the ability of 2mufc0 to keep under control the Brazilian trio.
See the performance of Zico for example against Liverpool.
RIGHT TIME TO CELEBRATE ZICO
- PLEASE WATCH THE VIDEO IN THE OP- 1953: birth of Zico who came from a lower-middle-class family of Portuguese origin, in the neighbourhood of Quintino Bocaiúva, Rio de Janeiro.
- At that time he was playing for Juventude and River Futebol Clube.
- 1967: He joined Flamengo at the age of 14.
- Zico made Flamengo a successful team, being the key player in their Golden Era.
- He led the team to victory: 1981 Copa Libertadores, 1981 Intercontinental Cup, 4 national titles (1980, 1982, 1983, and 1987).
- On the field, the two-footed player made goals in all imaginable ways, was also a great provider of assists and team organizer known for his excellent vision.
- He joined Italy at the age of 30 because he was happy in Brazil with his beloved Flamengo... At that time, Brazilian players didn't seem to have a strong desire to join Europe until the WC 86. Players like Renato Gaucho, Edmundo or Romario preferred to play in Brazil instead of Europe. For example, in 1997, Edmundo was making more money at Vasco than Ronaldo in Barcelona...
- In Italy, his 1st season was excellent: the very modest Udinese finishing 2nd and Zico the 2nd best scorer in La Serie A behind Platini. That said, he had the best goals scored/games played ratio.
- At that time he was playing for Juventude and River Futebol Clube.
- 1967: He joined Flamengo at the age of 14.
- Zico made Flamengo a successful team, being the key player in their Golden Era.
- He led the team to victory: 1981 Copa Libertadores, 1981 Intercontinental Cup, 4 national titles (1980, 1982, 1983, and 1987).
- On the field, the two-footed player made goals in all imaginable ways, was also a great provider of assists and team organizer known for his excellent vision.
- He joined Italy at the age of 30 because he was happy in Brazil with his beloved Flamengo... At that time, Brazilian players didn't seem to have a strong desire to join Europe until the WC 86. Players like Renato Gaucho, Edmundo or Romario preferred to play in Brazil instead of Europe. For example, in 1997, Edmundo was making more money at Vasco than Ronaldo in Barcelona...
- In Italy, his 1st season was excellent: the very modest Udinese finishing 2nd and Zico the 2nd best scorer in La Serie A behind Platini. That said, he had the best goals scored/games played ratio.
Source: www.bbc.com/sport/football/27574661
That said, the article doesn't mention the defence's weaknesses. Argentine 86 and 90 was very strong defensively contrary to Brazil 82. Suffice to look at the goals scored by Italy.
1981 INTERCONTINENTAL CUP FINAL LIVERPOOL 0-3 FLAMENGO >> ZICO MAN OF THE MATCH, BRILLIANT UNDER PRESSURE AND 2 ASSISTS.
- If you're curious about the Beautiful Game: see how he destroyed the great Liverpool of the 80's, former ruling team in Europe. Intelligence, mobility, passing skills, ball conduction.... perfection. Not just dribbling or Joga Bonito. This is FOOTBALL.
Invictus will replace me. See you tonight ++
I'm not even sure that it was — the original criticism was a sarcastic remark about your spelling mistake on the formation pic and then you lot exaggerated the point with being way too defensive about it.
Also, Ecstatic made this:
Perfumo's first position at the field was midfielder but he began to play as right back in the Racing reserve team. He debuted in Primera División promoted by Néstor Rossi during a match against Ferro Carril Oeste. Playing with Racing Club Perfumo was regarded as one of the best Argentine defenders, winning the Primera title, the Copa Libertadores and the Intercontinental Cup. In all those tournaments Perfumo was praised by media and fans as the most notable player of Racing Club.
Perfumo's first position at the field was midfielder but he began to play as right back in the Racing reserve team. He debuted in Primera División promoted by Néstor Rossi during a match against Ferro Carril Oeste. Playing with Racing Club Perfumo was regarded as one of the best Argentine defenders, winning the Primera title, the Copa Libertadores and the Intercontinental Cup. In all those tournaments Perfumo was praised by media and fans as the most notable player of Racing Club.
Because Del Bosque wrongly preferred Juanfran? Since Carvajal's form has picked he's been first choice and provided no injuries he will be in the starting lineup in the world cup.
I was just responding to @idmanager comment about Jack Charlton not being ideal against your front four and I said while I agree that that was true in isolation you had to consider @2mufc0 defense as a whole in which I think Jack could play a vital part. For the most part Brazilians have been known to suffer against physical play. I think Jack would make them suffer.
Also has had many injuries during international games:
https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/daniel-carvajal/nationalmannschaft/spieler/138927
We got defensive about it because we needed to iron out potential narrative issues out the gate - especially since we were expecting a -5 deficit at the very least in terms of irregular scan votes given the presence of Bobby Charlton on a United board. Oh well...
And again, just to reiterate, the strength of our defense is being undermined. Chumpitaz is also one of the greatest ever, and Perfumo is comparable to someone like Ruggeri for Argentina. Then there's Schulz, who played defensive sweeper under Schön with Beckenbauer in midfield:
Anyway, more from Ecstatic:
3 SPECIALISTS TO COVER ALL THE SPECTRUM OF FREE KICKS
1. ZICO: ONE OF THE GREATEST FREE KICK TAKERS OF ALL TIME
Zico's unique free kick technique, which often saw him raise his knee at a very high angle when striking the ball, thus enabling him to lift it high over the wall, allowed him to score free kicks even from close range, within 20 to 16 metres from the goal, or even from just outside the penalty area. In Italy, his free kicks caused such an impact that TV sports programs would debate how to stop them.
2. RONALDINHO: 66 FK below
3. CASE STUDY: SEE HOW PIRLO'S IMPACT AGAINST FRANCE -WORLD CUP 2006 FINAL
13' Corner - opportunity to score
18' Corner - Goal
27' Corner - another opportunity to score
35' Corner - Crossbar
76' Long-distance FK
3 SPECIALISTS TO COVER ALL THE SPECTRUM OF FREE KICKS
1. ZICO: ONE OF THE GREATEST FREE KICK TAKERS OF ALL TIME
Zico's unique free kick technique, which often saw him raise his knee at a very high angle when striking the ball, thus enabling him to lift it high over the wall, allowed him to score free kicks even from close range, within 20 to 16 metres from the goal, or even from just outside the penalty area. In Italy, his free kicks caused such an impact that TV sports programs would debate how to stop them.
2. RONALDINHO: 66 FK below
3. CASE STUDY: SEE HOW PIRLO'S IMPACT AGAINST FRANCE -WORLD CUP 2006 FINAL
13' Corner - opportunity to score
18' Corner - Goal
27' Corner - another opportunity to score
35' Corner - Crossbar
76' Long-distance FK
@Invictus I didn't understand your reply. You quoted my post about the physicality that was rampant against Brazilian players by players like Jack Charlton from the 1960s (to great effect by the way) by showing me a video about Zico against Liverpool in 1981. I'm missing something obviously.
@Invictus your doing Sir Bobby a massive disservice by saying he will attract votes because we are on a united forum (please correct me if I misinterpreted) . I know we have to sell our teams but that's not fair. Even neutrals would agree he's one of the best players of all time and belongs in the company of the likes of Zico. If anything your team is more prone to scan votes with that front 4.
The point was fairly straightforward, really - the physicality and ruggedness angle is overplayed - a cliché that's somehow embedded in popular consciousness. There's nothing to suggest Charlton will fare well vs. the opposition aside from that very physicality cliché. And aye, the effect was great in and around the 1960s, evidenced by Brazil's head to head record:
11 Jun 1958 Brazil v England D 0-0 FIFA World Cup
13 May 1959 Brazil v England L 2-0 International Friendly
10 Jun 1962 Brazil v England L 3-1 FIFA World Cup
08 May 1963 England v Brazil D 1-1 International Friendly
30 May 1964 Brazil v England L 5-1 Copa das Nacoes
12 Jun 1969 Brazil v England L 2-1 International Friendly
07 Jun 1970 England v Brazil L 0-1 FIFA World Cup
Great effect, definitely.
I'm really not doing him a disservice, mate. He was a great, great, wonderful player - you can browse through some of my posts to see how highly I rate him - and that post wasn't meant to be disparaging. However, there's just no getting around the fact that his presence influences votes - it's almost an empirical draft evidence. This isn't moaning, btw, just to state in the interest of fairness - we benefited from the presence of George Best in a previous draft. It's like having Di Stéfano on a Madrid board, and we had to plan around it - that's all the post was meant to convey.
Not sure that the potential voting imbalance between, said, Charlton and Zico isn't well compensated by Ronaldinho/Eusebio. More so, most of scan voters haven't even watched Charlton play, while Ronaldinho is an obviously appealing figure for 95% of this forum.
To be honest having picked them both already I don't think there is much between them (Zico and Sir Bobby), but my impression is that Zico, mostly due to his flamboyant style is more rated around here especially at the #10 position where both are occupying.
I love Sir Bobby and rate him among the very best in history but still slightly prefer Zico marginally. Don't think there is much between them and Platini and all of them receive great deal of appreciation both from United fans and regular posters.
Personally I'd put Zico slightly above Sir Bobby all things considered and only behind Cruyff, Di Stefano, Pele and Maradona in terms of impact from that position - central/insideish channel.
I don't even think Eusebio was that highly rated around here when I first picked him. In one of the drafts he even went as a 8th pick or something from memory.
Your front four is awesome mate and IMO will get plenty of appreciation
Good you brought up all those games since Jack Charlton didn't play in any of them. Bottom line is that lesser teams often used physicality against Brazil, it was often the only way those nations could compete.
Two greats teams. I don't mean to gang up on either side, but I've got a few issues with what's been said in the thread.
I'm not really sure what the point is? How does him playing in a midfield 3 in a 3-5-2 more challenging than playing alongside Clodoaldo and a bunch of 10s from 1970?
Sorry, but this is nonsense. Your brilliant midfield - and it's a fabulous and beautiful concept going forward - bears next to no resemblance to Italy's 2006 set-up. They were all about a compact four who defended narrowly and sacrificed themselves for the greater good. None of that will happen with your lot.
Pirlo is so revered because he wasn't the complete defensive midfielder, yet still succeeded and won it all at the top level.
Agree with this. To me the main point of comparison isn't who we rate higher between the two, but how they contribute to the collective on each side.To be honest having picked them both already I don't think there is much between them (Zico and Sir Bobby), but my impression is that Zico, mostly due to his flamboyant style is more rated around here especially at the #10 position where both are occupying.
I love Sir Bobby and rate him among the very best in history but still slightly prefer Zico marginally. Don't think there is much between them and Platini and all of them receive great deal of appreciation both from United fans and regular posters.
Personally I'd put Zico slightly above Sir Bobby all things considered and only behind Cruyff, Di Stefano, Pele and Maradona in terms of impact from that position - central/insideish channel.
I don't even think Eusebio was that highly rated around here when I first picked him. In one of the drafts he even went as a 8th pick or something from memory.
Your front four is awesome mate and IMO will get plenty of appreciation
You did write 'players like Jack Charlton from the 1960s'.
Why do you suggest Brazilian players can't cope with players with strong physical impact?
Its not about them getting defensive and it definitely wasn't exaggerated. Let me re summarize my points..
Firstly, lets talk Pirlo and then get to Varela.
Ecstatic uses the below video to call Pirlo a complete DM with good work rate.
Watched it earlier and what I saw was a deep lying player, playing the box to box role sometimes in an attacking sense.
I didn't see the DM part of it at all. In fact at around 1:25 mins, Edgar Davids plays a 1-2 around him as if he wan't there.
In an all time context, he will be a highly creative passenger whose defensive burden fully falls on Varela.
Invictus stated Varela will have some positional freedom and hence was slightly placed ahead of Pirlo.
Giving him any sort of positional freedom in this game is suicidal with Pirlo and Zico around. That is a tactical fault IMO.
He should be behind Pirlo considering he will have very little help.
Then it was stated that Varela would be assigned to take care of Charlton who would obviously constantly like to drift to the left where Eusebio is already working on a off prime out of best position perfumo.
How this would work I dunno considering Varela is placed on the left of Invistatic midfield while Charlton would be impacting heavily on the opposite side of pitch where Pirlo is operating.
Varela should be on the right of Invistatic midfield to not only track Charlton but also protect the zone ahead of Perfumo.
I dunno how much you people consider the impact of CB's or MF's on the correct sides, but I surely think its very important.
If something does feel exaggerated without reason, I am sorry, but they are all key reasons in a very tight midfield battle.
Varela is rightly highly regarded, but just because he is a shiny name, doesn't mean he is correctly used here. At least not in my personal opinion.
@green_smiley
Am I allowed to vote just to see the score but don't want it to count if I consider it a stalemate?
Am I allowed to vote just to see the score but don't want it to count if I consider it a stalemate?
In a 3-5-2 system, the central midfielders have to defensively support the wing backs while in a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 it's up to the wingers to defend.
Of course, we are not Italy 2006. In reality, the intention was to show Pirlo is more versatile that most of us think from a tactical perspective.
Italy 2006 isn't Milan 2007 that isn't InvictusRedCafeDraft
It depends on how you define the term 'complete'. Of course, he isn't Edgar Davids or Makélélé but it doesn't mean he can't contribute to the defensive strategy in his manner.
The pure defensive midfielder is the bodyguard Obdulio Varela and I'm not of those who think Pirlo is a pure liability as suggested here, a player whose only talent is only to deliver some passes.
Also, we did consider prime Pirlo (12-14 years ago), the Milanese version less static that the Juventino one.
Gattuso said
Don't vote in this game. I will PM you the result if you're curious.
Why is Eusebio on the left? His best position was right side and more suitable to exploit Zambrotta.
Charlton from his origins as left wingers, is already naturally placed to drift left and can operate in sync with Eusebio on right.
Charlton from his origins as left wingers, is already naturally placed to drift left and can operate in sync with Eusebio on right.
It depends though. A pair of hard-working strikers can be expected to pick up the full-backs and, only if they don't, would I expect a CM to cover across.
Agree with all this. Tricky man to accommodate in an all-time draft, but he's a bit like Gerson on the other side in that his defensive game can be under-appreciated.
I thought Eusebio was pretty tasty at that Henry-esque move of skinning defenders on their right side by moving the ball from right to left foot at pace.