The Fifth Redcafe Sheep Draft Round 1 - 2mufc0 vs. Invictus/Ecstatic

Who would win in the following draft game with all players at their peak?


  • Total voters
    37
  • Poll closed .

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TEAM 2MUFC0

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VS

TEAM INVICTUS/ECSTATIC

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TACTICS 2MUFC0

I believe the formation picture is pretty clear on how i will be setting up and there are many legends in the lineup who don't need any introduction. Looking at the opposition there are some fantastic attackers and fine defenders, however looking at their squad they are most likely to play a midfield of Varela and Pirlo and against my 3 man midfield and the personnel i have in midfield i would most likely dominate the midfield.

Main points on why i think my team would win:

  • Likely to dominate a 2 man midfield, Gerson-Simeone-Charlton midfield 3 is physical, skillful and powerful while Varela would be upto the task Pirlo is likely to struggle ina midfield 2 and they won't get much help from Zico playing in the 10 role. Varela won't be able to do it by himself. And with Baresi stepping up at times we will have control of the midfield.
  • After cutting of the supply i also have the defence to deal with the threat, Buffon-Baresi-Cannavaro at the core are formidable defenders not only in terms of skill but also leadership and mentality and are big match players. Then i have the old school stopper world cup winner Jack Charlton bringing that physical presence.
  • The previous point also extends into the midfield everyone knows what Sir Bobby is about and in Simeone we have someone who will drive the midfield and Gerson able to keep the play ticking over.
  • Upfront i have Eusebio who will be deadly on the counter.
  • The master libero setting up attacks from the back Baresi
  • Eusebio and Sir Bobby will relish the knock downs from Shearer, with Sir Bobby one of the best long range shooters of all time.
  • Both of my strikers are serial goal scorers at the highest level with 959 career goals between them.
  • Carvajal and Leo Junior are able to run the flanks and get good crosses into Shearer, the team is able to attack in various ways.

TACTICS INVICTUS/ECSTATIC

DEFENSIVE STRATEGY

We'll start by highlighting the strength in defense (in terms of both configuration and reliable quality) against an attack that will rely significantly on Eusébio for dynamism and fluidity through the final third.

Gianluca Zambrotta will have the most offensive oriented role of the quartet - capable on going on lung-busting runs for 90+ minutes, he will flank Ronaldinho on the outside channel and seek to repeatedly create numerical overloads against the opposition right wingback. Another facet of Zambrotta's game that will be useful here is his expertise at tucking in a wee bit to temporarily add an extra man in midfield areas.

Now that the attacking strategy through defense is covered, we turn our sights to three venerated defenders' defenders that will collectively attempt to out-scheme and outwit the opposition attack:

Captain América Héctor Chumpitaz was renowned for his great technique, his leadership, his organization ability on the field; a strong reader of the game with excellent ball skills and distribution, he marshaled a capable defense to support Peru’s attack led by Teofilo Cubillas. Overall, Chumpitaz is considered one of the greatest defenders of all-time and was named to the list of best World Cup players of all time by Terra.com in 2006 - on top of being selected as the 35th best South American footballer of the 20th century by the IFFHS in 2000.

On the right, we've decided to employ a slightly unorthodox approach to provide extra security against Eusébio - a wingback would be counter-intuitive considering the opposition's narrow-ish attack. El Mariscal Roberto Perfumo is another South American defensive behemoth and will play in a slightly offset position from his younger days. We do not want him to surge up the flank. He will advance a bit in support of Jarizinho, but will function mostly as a cover defender given his grit, positional nous and understanding of spaces. His presence will allow us to keep the Portuguese forward in check and monitor any advances by Júnior.

Then there's the grand old German defensive sweeper, Willi Schulz (via @mazhar13) - who was one of the greatest center-backs in the world in the mid-1960s and a reference point for West Germany - peaking with a Top 12 finish in the Ballon D'Or. Schulz was not only superb in positional play as a conservative sweeper with no urge to join the attack of his teams and focused on marshalling his defense but also had a high quality at man-to-man duels. He was noted for his calmness even under pressure, his solid passing game, aerial ability and a special expertise at sliding tackling. Kicker rate Schulz in 3 world-class seasons and 6 seasons include world-class of international-class include the 1966 World Cup. This rating is the best ever for German center-back position.

With Schulz and Chumpitaz being comfortable on either the left or right side, we could designate Chumpitaz as an extra marker on Eusébio given his physicality, athleticism and low center of gravity - and leave Schulz to mind Shearer as the defensive sweeper.

And the man shielding the goal is appropriately nicknamed The Iron Curtain, Rinat Dasayev. We'll quote @Enigma_87 for this one: simply put - The best goalkeeper of the 80's. He's a tall keeper with magnificent reflexes. However his biggest strength is the ability to command his box and area, his anticipation and aerial presense. One of the most dependable keepers - usually prevented any dangerous situation before it even happened.

CENTRAL MIDFIELD

In midfield we have Andrea Pirlo - widely regarded as one of the most celebrated central midfielders in football due to his vision, ball control, creativity and passing ability, as well as for being a free-kick specialist. Here we are going to use Pirlo in a role that is somewhat similar to the 2006 World Cup Italian team - here, Pirlo is going to be one of the Top 3 creators in the team on the ball after Zico and Ronaldinho.

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Patrolling the midfield area is El Negro Jeffe Obdulio Varela - the man who brought Brazil to its knees in 1950, and led Uruguay to the summit of the football world in front of a hostile 200,000 strong Maracanã Stadium. Given the up-tempo nature of our team, the talismanic Varela is going to be the center of gravity player - involved in both breaking down the opposition moves and instigating the build-up play from the back with efficient passes primarily to Pirlo alongside him, and then Zico or Ronaldinho.


OFFENSIVE STRATEGY

Up front we needed a dynamic, tactically perceptive, efficient and industrious forward to lead the line - and we believe we have the perfect fit in two time Ballon D'Or winner Karl-Heinz Rummenigge. A target striker might have hampered the fluidity of the attack despite holding more of nominally higher line, but Rummenigge can disorient the opposition defense, go wider if need be to pull central markers, and most importantly - link up brilliantly with the trio behind him given his all-round play and technique.

And speaking of the trio, we reach the most exhilarating part of the team featuring some the purest proponents of o jogo bonito of the Seleção...

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On the right we have Furacão Jairzinho - a spellbinding superstar of the greatest national team of all time - Brazil 1970, and one of only two player to have scored in each match of the World Cup for the eventual champions. A supremely gifted athlete, Jairzinho was a devastating offensive threat - renowned for his powerful runs, bamboozling dribbles, superb short passing, scintillating pace, and lethal shooting ability, evidenced by 33 goals for Brazil, 200+ goals for Botafogo, and an incredible 9 goals at the World Cups, third highest for a Brazilian player after Ronaldo and Pelé.



Through the middle is the crown jewel of the team - Zico - nicknamed The White Pelé, he has everything that you need from a player for this position. A diminutive playmaker, with a small, slender physique, he was a two-footed player, known for his flair, exceptional technique, ball control, and dribbling skills, as well as his use of tricks and feints to beat opponents with the ball - and is mentioned in the same breath as the likes of Maradona and Platini for his sumptuous play through the '70s and '80s. And if that wasn’t enough, his goal scoring record from this position is simply breathtaking - with a peak of 105 goals in just 2 seasons at Flamengo and 19 goals in just 24 games in close to prime Serie A.

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And on the left of the dazzling attack is a guy who needs needs no introduction given the era he played in. A mindbogglingly talented creative threat who peaked as the greatest player in the world in the mid 2000s - providing a mix of goals, assists, bewitching skills and unleashing an endless repertoire of crafty moves that flabbergasted opponents, and left them foaming at their mouths...Ronaldinho.
 
Wow at the 2 sides. It's almost unfair to the rest of us and the struggles in the first round looking at the formations...

That @Invictus front four :drool:

and then the spine 2mufc2 has - Eusebio, Shearer, Baresi, Cannavaro, Gerson...:eek:
 
As an opponent, so glad these two met in the first round :lol:
Unfair for either to go out though.

Not a fan of Verala in the Invistatic midfield. Looks terribly out of place.
 
As an opponent, so glad these two met in the first round :lol:
Unfair for either to go out though.

Not a fan of Verala in the Invistatic midfield. Looks terribly out of place.
Would you mind elaborating, please? Thanks! Better if we iron out any potential narrative issues now. Varela is going to be the muscle + simple passer with a bit of positional freedom to seek-and-destroy - hence a marginally higher placement than Pirlo. From a functional standpoint, it's not too dissimilar to how Toninho operated behind Zico - of course, the two situations aren't similar - just a comparison of approaches, and someone who knows a great deal about Varela (antohan) has used him in a similar-ish role in the past in a Chain Draft: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/all-time-chain-draft-r1-antohan-vs-joga-annah.409195/ (we are employing a more flashy strategy, so Pirlo is better suited to our style than Tito mopping things up). Plus, because of the extra security provided by Perfumo against opposition counters on the inside channel, Varela can join in on our counter-attacks from time to time. This method extracts the maximum out of his skill set, in our opinion - rather than just him being a static, run-of-the-mill, anchor.
 
Oh that is Varela there and not Verala? Okay.
Sorry, the spelling in the image put me off :D
FWIW, he is obviously a pretty good fit there.

Jesus, @2mufc0 better be careful, all guns blazing these two already :lol:
 
Oh that is Varela there and not Verala? Okay.
Sorry, the spelling in the image put me off :D
FWIW, he is obviously a pretty good fit there.
Yep, he is a pretty good fit there:
Uruguay also had three of the best players in the world lining up in their team: inside forward Juan Alberto Schiaffino, winger Alcides Ghiggia, and the domineering (and aforementioned) box-to-box midfielder Obdulio Varela.

...

The flaw in the plan was that Uruguay were too good to be teased and manipulated in this way. Varela, now with fewer defensive duties, stepped up to augment the attack.
Plus, in defensive terms in terms of his remit off-the-ball, we'd posit that Varela will do a better job of curtailing Charlton's influence than Simeone on Zico - don't think that's a controversial statement either because Varela is one the most disruptive midfielders of all time (after the likes of Rijkaard and Desailly), and arguably the most disruptive out of the South American continent as regards putting the brakes on the momentum of the opposition team:
The Uruguayan party weren’t just wary. They were petrified. The Brazilians had, after all, put seven past Sweden and six past Spain in their last two games. And there was high expectation that the hosts would do the same to Uruguay. That day’s Rio papers had printed a photo of the side with the headline “Today, Brazil wins the World Cup”.

But, in the highly intimidating surroundings of a packed Maracana, Varela’s influence went beyond mere instruction and inspiration. There’s arguably never been a single player that has so dominated a World Cup final. Varela had a huge psychological effect on his team.

Certainly, Varela was winning the battle. As Brian Glanville wrote “it was now Varela who bestrode the field, nonchalant and indomitable, masterfully breaking up and launching attacks, the old-school centre-half par excellence.”
 
Varela is going to be the muscle + simple passer with a bit of positional freedom to seek-and-destroy - hence a marginally higher placement than Pirlo.

Whether this is a good idea is debatable though.
I'd prefer the muscle guy with Pirlo to have very limited or even no positional freedom, especially with Zico already in the mix.

I would have put Varela definitely behind Pirlo. Would not want Pirlo to be caught out alone against the central power houses of 2mufc0 .
 
Whether this is a good idea is debatable though.
I'd prefer the muscle guy with Pirlo to have very limited or even no positional freedom, especially with Zico already in the mix.

I would have put Varela definitely behind Pirlo. Would not want Pirlo to be caught out alone against the central power houses of 2mufc0 .

To be honest the ideal setup for Pirlo has always been as the deepest midfielder flanked by two box to box players:

B2B---------B2B
-------Pirlo-----

So that shouldn't be a concern given that Varela will have to mind most of the defensive duties in midfield.

However, Varela will most likely have to have a man mark job here on Sir Bobby tho, as otherwise he could make a real impact especially with Eusebio there in the mix.

I wouldn't want either of Sir Bobby or Eusebio running at Pirlo in that zone.
 
Alright, Varela will do a job on Charlton. Let's have it that way. Pirlo vs. Gérson, and Perfumo + Schulz vs Eusébio. :)
 
To be honest the ideal setup for Pirlo has always been as the deepest midfielder flanked by two box to box players:

B2B---------B2B
-------Pirlo-----

So that shouldn't be a concern given that Varela will have to mind most of the defensive duties in midfield.

Totally different setup here though with Zico present. Pirlo becomes a huge liability without Varela always behind him or even slightly out of position IMO.

On another note, I'd swap Pirlo and Varela too considering it was Bobby's favourite side and Eusebio is working in the same areas.
If both of them combine on that side against a CB working as a tucked RB, that is trouble.
 
Good luck @Invictus and @Ecstatic.

Pirlo was playing in a midfield 3 in 06 with Gattuso and Perrotta and has always been at his best in a midfield 3. Pirlo vs either Sir Bobby or Eusebio works in my favour.
 
Like I've said in the OP Varela is a fine player but won't be able to do it by himself. Sir Bobby will out work Zico and dare I say it he's just as good as him going forward imo. Secondly if Varela is going to mark Sir Bobby, Eusebio and Simeone will overload his midfield.
 
@Ecstatic from my limited knowledge of him Perfumo was a centre back, did he ever play RB for any significant period?
 
@Ecstatic from my limited knowledge of him Perfumo was a centre back, did he ever play RB for any significant period?
The younger version of him played in multiple positions iirc. He started as a DM, RCB and RB occasionally. He was pretty versatile and could play there. Wouldn't call him a RB specialist or the Gentile/Burgnich/Bergomi type tho.
 
Also with Perfumo being instructed to keep an eye on Eusebio , Leo Junior will have plenty of room when he gets forward , this would be a clear route to creating chances and scoring goals with Sir Bobby's runs into the box and Eusebio and Shearer ready to pounce. I honestly believe i have the tactical advantage here and hope voters consider this as it's easy to be wowed by that front 4.
 
The younger version of him played in multiple positions iirc. He started as a DM, RCB and RB occasionally. He was pretty versatile and could play there. Wouldn't call him a RB specialist or the Gentile/Burgnich/Bergomi type tho.
Thanks. It appears he's there just to man mark Eusebio but no 100% suited to it as he's not like Gentile. This also opens up space on that left hand side for Junior to exploit as Perfumo won't be getting much help from Jairzinho.
 
My favourite match-up so far. Can't decide on the winner at the moment though
 
Good luck @Invictus and @Ecstatic.

Pirlo was playing in a midfield 3 in 06 with Gattuso and Perrotta and has always been at his best in a midfield 3. Pirlo vs either Sir Bobby or Eusebio works in my favour.

Let's compare our team with Italy 2006 if you want.

Totti = Zico
Gattuso = Varela
Perrotta = Ronaldinho
Camoranesi = Jairzinho

The two teams are perfectly balanced in the sense that Zico is an attacking MIDFIELDER while Totti was more advanced, more second striker.
 
THE CONTEXT MAKES US THINK RONALDINHO WOULD STRONGLY IMPACT THE GAME

1. NEYMAR HAS PAVED THE WAY ON HOW A PRIME BRAZILIAN WINGER COULD HUMILIATE CARVAJAL


Below, Neymar Versus Carvajal between 2013 and 2017




2. RONALDINHO TO COMBINE WITH ZAMBROTTA VERSION JUVE 2002-05



3. IN THE MEANTIME, THE SPANISH LB WOULD BE UNHAPPY TO BENEFIT FROM A LIMITED SUPPORT

Simeone will be lost between Zico and Ronaldinho... and we know Gerson isn't a pure defensive midfielder but rather a central midfielder, the Brazilian Pirlo in a certain sense. The difference being that Pirlo isn't asked to cover a wing.....

 
Let's compare our team with Italy 2006 if you want.

Totti = Zico
Gattuso = Varela
Perrotta = Ronaldinho
Camoranesi = Jairzinho

The two teams are perfectly balanced in the sense that Zico is an attacking MIDFIELDER while Totti was more advanced, more second striker.
So you're saying Dinho will be playing as the 3rd CM? Not the best way to utilise him imo.

And then theres the fact that Italy played a defensive tactic in that tournament on the counter, your team is not setup to play this way. This is not a valid comparison.
 
I forgot how much I hate Ecstatic's colourful spam, tempted to vote for 2mufc just because of it :lol:
 
So you're saying Dinho will be playing as the 3rd CM? Not the best way to utilise him imo.

Perrotta was a right-side midfielder in that game... not a central midfielder...
 
Thanks. It appears he's there just to man mark Eusebio but no 100% suited to it as he's not like Gentile. This also opens up space on that left hand side for Junior to exploit as Perfumo won't be getting much help from Jairzinho.

You don't have a left-winger so Schulz and Perfumo are largely sufficient to keep Eusebio under control.

Chumpitaz would be more focused on Shearer.
 
THE CONTEXT MAKES US THINK RONALDINHO WOULD STRONGLY IMPACT THE GAME

1. NEYMAR HAS PAVED THE WAY ON HOW A PRIME BRAZILIAN WINGER COULD HUMILIATE CARVAJAL


Below, Neymar Versus Carvajal between 2013 and 2017




2. RONALDINHO TO COMBINE WITH ZAMBROTTA VERSION JUVE 2002-05



3. IN THE MEANTIME, THE SPANISH LB WOULD BE UNHAPPY TO BENEFIT FROM A LIMITED SUPPORT

Simeone will be lost between Zico and Ronaldinho... and we know Gerson isn't a pure defensive midfielder but rather a central midfielder, the Brazilian Pirlo in a certain sense. The difference being that Pirlo isn't asked to cover a wing.....

:lol: i was expecting these hyperbolic and anecdotal arguments against Dani. I'm not saying Ronaldinho won't be a challenge that's why i have Cannavaro and Simeone on that side. Secondly Carvajal is no sheep, he's been the best right back in the last 2 years and a key component in Real's 2 CL wins selected in the team of the tournament both times.
 
Perrotta was a right-side midfielder in that game... not a central midfielder...
This is why wikipedia formation pics can be misleading.

But my point stands Pirlo played in a completely different tactical environment to what you are proposing here.
 
The issue is Carvajal isn't the most suited player to be ....a right wing back in a 3-5-2 system.

Any credentials in this regard?
Watch him play? In this system he has less defensive responsibility and more licence to get forward which he's fantastic at.

 
You don't have a left-winger so Schulz and Perfumo are largely sufficient to keep Eusebio under control.

Chumpitaz would be more focused on Shearer.
It's liek my wing backs don't exist.
 
It's not really been mentioned to any great extent but I love @2mufc0 back three and goalkeeper. In Baresi and Cannavaro you've got two of the best defenders of all time and in "Big Jack" you've got someone who will win everything in the air and at the same time put his body on the line to make sure nothing gets past him on the ground. In addition, some will argue that Buffon is the best goalkeeper of all time. Overall @2mufc0 gets my vote.
 
@Ecstatic didn't you have a natural RB in your roster? Who are your subs?

The only thing I'm not particularly fond of in your setup is Pirlo - especially with Zico already there you don't really need a DLP, another B2B would've been great there and a more RB specialist, especially when not facing an out and out left winger.
 
It's not really been mentioned to any great extent but I love @2mufc0 back three and goalkeeper. In Baresi and Cannavaro you've got two of the best defenders of all time and in "Big Jack" you've got someone who will win everything in the air and at the same time put his body on the line to make sure nothing gets past him on the ground. In addition, some will argue that Buffon is the best goalkeeper of all time. Overall @2mufc0 gets my vote.
Thanks, i was just about to post this, Baresi really was match winning defender.

Franco Baresi: How to defend like a master
 
Did you read in the OP we replicated Italy 2006? Did we describe Ronaldinho as the All-Mighty Perrotta?
So why on earth are you comparing Pirlo in your setup to Italy 2006? Just admit this isn't accurate?
 
as for @2mufc0 I think tactically he's set up the best way he could with the roster he has. I assume Junior will be playing in his 82' role? I'm pretty fond of that front three - Sir Bobby,Eusebio and Shearer.

Undecided at the moment. Invictus/Ecstatic have hands down the better attack (which says a lot considering the other team fields Shearer,Eusebio and Sir Bobby), the midfield is about on par and 2mufc0 has the better defence and looks like tactically more suited to the opposition.
 
as for @2mufc0 I think tactically he's set up the best way he could with the roster he has. I assume Junior will be playing in his 82' role? I'm pretty fond of that front three - Sir Bobby,Eusebio and Shearer.

Undecided at the moment. Invictus/Ecstatic have hands down the better attack (which says a lot considering the other team fields Shearer,Eusebio and Sir Bobby), the midfield is about on par and 2mufc0 has the better defence and looks like tactically more suited to the opposition.

This part of the discussion has been sidetracked but I think the quality of my defenders will be able to offset the quality of his attack.
 
I like Carvajal here even though I do consider him a defensive liability no matter the team of the tournaments he was in. The same teams and awards rate Ramos as the best defender in world and did the same to Pique.

Anyways, things I like and dislike in each team:

Invistatic
Like:
1. The front 4, obviously. Way too good. Feckers have Seeler on the bench.
2. Zambrotta+Dinho flank looks tasty and demands a more defensively astute RWB, even if there is Cannavaro to cover

Dislike:
1. Neither of Chumpitaz and Schulz would be my favourites to deal with crosses into Shearer. That is a big advantage for mufc
2. I don't think they are winning the MF battle. Have already posted my reservations about that, even without considering Baresi stepping it up.
3. Perfumo needs Varela on his side or is struggling IMO.

mufc -
1. That midfield looks awesome. Baresi and Charlton at top and bottom with the steel of Gerson and Simeone in the middle is lovely.
2. Eusebio+Charlton

Dislike:
1. Don't like either of the fullbacks here. Carvajal for defensive reasons.
2. And Junior because I don't expect him to pump in too many quality crosses consistently from the left. Shearer against that centreback pair deserves a standout left footed crosser from the left to compliment Carvajal on the right/
3. Jack Charlton against that front 4 and Kalle is not ideal. From what I know, he was one of the weakest players of that 1966 Team.

I would probably not vote for this game, but agree that this has been the best game by miles till now.
 
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We are familiar with these drafts so we knew in advance Pirlo has always been caricatured.



I was speaking about the role of Pirlo... What is your next post? A comparison of Luca Toni with Kalle?
No because you have to take into consideration the positions and roles the teammates played. Perrotta was tasked with making a midfield 3 in defence and to break off when on the counter, but his primary role was to stay central. None of your players can do this role.
 
We are familiar with these drafts so we knew in advance Pirlo has always been caricatured.
It's not about Pirlo - he's a great midfielder, more of the current matchup and the Eusebio/Sir Bobby roaming in that zone.

In most cases Varela will be enough as a holder, but a double pivot in that 4-2-3-1 would be better in the current game to neutralize 2mufc0 spine.

Also we're getting into really detailed territory here as both teems like like 2 players away from being final ready...