The Fifth Redcafe Sheep Draft QF - indnyc/crappycraperson vs. prath92/KM

[green_smiley]

TEAMS INDNYC/CRAPPYCRAPERSON

VS

TEAM PRATH92/KM

TACTICS INDNYC/CRAPPYCRAPERSON

3-4-1-2 formation centered to bring out the best of Platini, Sivori and C. Ronaldo

Goalkeeper: Oliver Kahn.. Easily one of the greatest of all times

Defense

Paolo Maldini, Rio Ferdinand and Cesare Maldini combine to form a strong back three. P. Maldini is easily amongst top 5 defenders of all time and Rio is as graceful as they get and they are backed by C.Maldini who was one of the greatest Italian defenders of all time.

They are flanked by Cabrini who won the 1982 World Cup with Italy at Left Wing Back and is one of the greatest left backs of all time. Manuel Amoros completes the defense at right wing back.

Both Cabrini and Amoros are given a license to venture forward with the back 3 covering for them. Noby Stiles will fall back in defense as required

Midfield

Noby Stiles, Neeskens, and Platini give the team a great balance. Noby Stiles was the player that sat and did the dirty work as Charlton and co. led United to the European cup. His role here is to break up attacks and feed the ball to Platini and Neeskens.

Neeskens is probably one of the greatest box to box midfielders and will be a key player in both attack and defense. In this formation he is given a bit more licence to move forward and join the attack. He still maintains his role as a box to box midfielder

This setup allows Platini to thrive by allowing him to dictate the play from midfield. Platini is playing the role he played for Juventus 1983-1885 when he won 3 consecutive European Player of the Year awards. He will dictate play from midfield and look to score at every opportunity

Attack

Omar Sivori is the main striker. Regarded as one of the greatest players of his generation and as one of the greatest football players of all time, Sívori was known for his outstanding skill, speed, goalscoring ability, and technique; and he won the European footballer of the year in 1961.

Cristiano Ronaldo completes the line up. He is given a free role and would be devastating in his current position. C. Ronaldo is easily one of the greatest players ever and adds another dimension to our attack

TACTICS PRATH92/KM

Team Roles

Gordon Banks - Goalkeeper
Pietro Vierchowod - Stopper/Sweeper
Thiago Silva - Stopper/Sweeper
Denis Irwin - Right Back
Eric Abidal - Left Back
Gennaro Gattuso - Defensive Midfielder
Mario Coluna - Box to Box Central Midfielder
Ronaldinho - Left winger
Socrates - Attacking midfielder
Pavel Nedved - Right Winger
Denis Law - Centre Forward

Why we will win

1. Solid defence

We have a very reliable defence. Gordon Banks is one of the keepers who is probably considered one of the greatest of all time. Vierchowod was someone who even top players like Maradona found it difficult to play against and Thiago Silva is probably the best in the current generation with Maldini and Baresi likening him to some of the best Italian defenders of the past. Both Abidal and Irwin are exceptional in balancing the attacking and defensive aspects of the full back position to a T, helping them to play instrumental roles in the Barcelona (09) and United (99) trebles respectively.

2. Tough midfield

Gattuso may not be the biggest name but he certainly did a wonderful job, being key in Milan reaching three CL finals and Italy winning the World Cup in 2006. Mario Coluna was an exceptional CM with great vision in attack to match his work rate and hard work in the defensive aspects and was rated as a top CM of his era. They have clear roles with little overlap and can avoided being dominated. Gattuso is very efficient in holding a midfield together having covered for Pirlo for years together for club and country. Here coluna is also very

3. Lethal Attack

Denis Law was a Balon D’or winning CF who is one of Manchester United’s top scorers and had been part of a successful United attacking trinity alongside George Best and Sir Bobby Charlton

Pulling the creative strings behind him are Ronaldinho to the left, Pavel Nedved to the right and Brazilian genius Socrates through the middle in a attacking 3. Effective width will also be provided by Abidal and Irwin.

People may underrate Thiago Silva so



Some comments on Thiago Silva during his Milan days

Franco Baresi

It’s always difficult to make comparisons. In any case, I think that Thiago Silva is a great player, a great defender who’s proving his worth. He has exceptional qualities, so I believe Milan have found a player for the long run, a defender who has a bright future ahead of him. Making comparisons is part of the game, but I think he must be himself, demonstrating his value as a player. Playing with the kind of continuity he had this season proves he really belongs to the elite

Paolo Maldini

Certainly, Thiago shows that security that characterized Franco when he used to play. For one reason or another, when Baresi came off during the break or during the game, we all felt his loss and I think the same thing is happening with Thiago, because he gives so much security at the back. Physically, Thiago is superior to Franco, but despite that, Franco was a monster from every other point of view. From a technical and tactical standpoint, Franco was number 1, no doubt about it.

 

[green_smiley]

Good luck @Indnyc @crappycraperson @prath92 @KM

 

[crappycraperson]

Good luck to all. Would leave the arguing to Indync from now on.

Just to give my perspective -

- We have tried to model the team on Platini's Juve team of 80s. Back line misses someone like Scirea but Rio is capable of carrying the ball forward. Most importantly Platini gets to the play the role he can excel in. He can drop deep to kick start the attacks, play the proper 10 or make the forward run in space vacated by Sivori. Up front Sivori and C.Ron have great potential to gel in the same way Cristiano did with Benzema at Madrid. Sivori is capable of playing across the front line so will drop deep to allow Cristiano to make his trademark runs into the box from left. Platini finding Cristiano seems like the surest path to goal here,
- Out on wings both Amoros and Cabirini are seasoned wing backs. Cabrini plays the exact same role as his Juve one alongside Platini. Amoros played alongside Platini too for France and is capable of running the wing on his own. A back 3 and presence of Stiles, allows more freedom to wing backs.

In terms of opposition, I think they have a solid side but are outmatched in quality. Midfield is a clear window to the same- Platini + Neeskens is much superior version of Socrates and Coluna. Our wing backs/full backs are better (though my United bias allows me to call Amoros/Irwin a draw even though very few neutrals outside United fans would say the same). Their wingers seem like the biggest threat (small point on Nedved, I think he is fine on right but this is not his peak role), I believe our attacking threat is better.

 

[harms]

Sivori - Cristiano - Platini?
Who was your center forward in the first round?

 

[Lord SInister]

Sivori - Cristiano - Platini?
Who was your center forward in the first round?

Lewandowski

 

[harms]

Lewandowski

To be honest, I would much prefer to see him here instead of Sivori.

 

[Physiocrat]

To be honest, I would much prefer to see him here instead of Sivori.

Agreed. Sivori here is a little odd. IIRC he was a dribbling second-striker. Now with Platini there him being able to drift wide to allow Platini to enter the box could work but with Sivori so far forward I don't think you'll see the best from him. Apart from that the other 10 players look very well balanced.

Big issue for Prath is Gattuso on Platini

 

[Gio]

It would be good to see the facets of Sivori’s game that will make him a success in that role. Not ruling it out, but need a little selling.

 

[Indnyc]

Sivori was not necessarily a second striker only.. He was a forward who could play anywhere across the front.. The idea is to allow him and Cristiano to not be fixed in one position but move around

 

[Indnyc]

Although he was an excellent goalscorer, especially while with Juventus, Sívori was also able to utilise his vision and passing accuracy to create chances for team-mates, working in unison with Charles and Boniperti in the club's attacking trident, and was capable of playing both in the center as a main striker and in a deeper role as a second striker or inside forward on the left side of the pitch.

The above is on his Wikipedia.. The below video gives some more context on his skills.. You can see that he sometimes played deep and sometimes was right up top with his back to the goal.



The battle we should highlight is of course Platini against Gattuso which is a big mismatch.

Playing 3 at the back also gives a lot more freedom to Neeskens to join the attack particularly as Coluna would have to support Gattuso with Platini. Stiles is perfect for looking after Socrates.

 

[prath92]

Agreed. Sivori here is a little odd. IIRC he was a dribbling second-striker. Now with Platini there him being able to drift wide to allow Platini to enter the box could work but with Sivori so far forward I don't think you'll see the best from him. Apart from that the other 10 players look very well balanced.

Big issue for Prath is Gattuso on Platini

Gattuso was a key member of a successful Milan side in the DM role. I don’t think it’s really one sided as is being made out. It’s not any different to Stiles on Socrates imo. Not to mention that he will have support from one of the CBs as well.

Ronaldinho on Cesare Maldini is a clear mismatch. One was GOAT and while the other was a good defender. With Amoros playing higher up, him and Abidal will wreak havoc that side

 

[Physiocrat]

Gattuso was a key member of a successful Milan side in the DM role. I don’t think it’s really one sided as is being made out. It’s not any different to Stiles on Socrates imo. Not to mention that he will have support from one of the CBs as well.

Ronaldinho on Cesare Maldini is a clear mismatch. One was GOAT and while the other was a good defender. With Amoros playing higher up, him and Abidal will wreak havoc that side

Gattuso was a wide shutter on the right side of a diamond. Pirlo was a DLP flanked by Gattuso and Ambrosini/Seedorf

 

[prath92]

Gattuso was a wide shutter on the right side of a diamond. Pirlo was a DLP flanked by Gattuso and Ambrosini/Seedorf

The guy played as a pure DM many times though. Playing alongside pirlo is akin to defending for two anyway. He was a hard tackler and had exceptional work rate and would give no joy to players. Not saying he is a GOAT or anything but you don’t become a key member of a WC winning and CL winning sides by being unable to deal with the best.

Sivori a SS playing as a CF vs a defender who maradona himself felt extremely irritated playing against is more of a mismatch imo. It might actually free up Thiago Silva more to cover Platini as well.

 

[prath92]

I’m in a safari so connectivity is going to be limited. Will try to post later

 

[antohan]

Big issue for Prath is Gattuso on Platini

Why? Platini is always a worry in his own right, but don't see what Gattuso has done wrong to get such a targeted comment.

Team is underwhelming though, I'm not even sure where they improved. I'd argue Raí would work better than Socrates with that frontline but the midfield pair looks off to me either way.

At the other end, it looks a bit of a mess too. No striker? Sívori isn't exactly the best foil for Platini as a striker and Cristiano is occupying the area he could influence effectively to combine well.

Also, what is Cesare Maldini doing there? He doesn't HAVE to be played any more. Get shot of him, play Amoros (an excellent man marker) more conservative, Sívori-Lewa upfront and nominally give Cristiano the right wing with a license to roam. Simple.

 

[antohan]

I’m in a safari so connectivity is going to be limited. Will try to post later

Look up!

Now!

It's not a Pokemon it's a L...Too late.

 

[Indnyc]

The guy played as a pure DM many times though. Playing alongside pirlo is akin to defending for two anyway. He was a hard tackler and had exceptional work rate and would give no joy to players. Not saying he is a GOAT or anything but you don’t become a key member of a WC winning and CL winning sides by being unable to deal with the best.

Sivori a SS playing as a CF vs a defender who maradona himself felt extremely irritated playing against is more of a mismatch imo. It might actually free up Thiago Silva more to cover Platini as well.

Gattuso played as a RM in the 2007 champions league final. I'll agree that he played as a pure DM sometimes but that wasn't his best position. He is directly against one of the Greatest no. 10's off all time in Platini so it is a big mismatch.

Sivori is played in a SS position but will have a lot of movement.. He will constantly be moving and vacating central space for Platini. In addition even Neeskens showed in Dutch system that he can foray forward and occupy the central space in the box if needed.

I will also bring up the wingback postion. Cabrini is playing as an attacking wingback here that will often end up double teaming Irwin with Cristiano.

 

[crappycraperson]

The guy played as a pure DM many times though. Playing alongside pirlo is akin to defending for two anyway. He was a hard tackler and had exceptional work rate and would give no joy to players. Not saying he is a GOAT or anything but you don’t become a key member of a WC winning and CL winning sides by being unable to deal with the best.

Sivori a SS playing as a CF vs a defender who maradona himself felt extremely irritated playing against is more of a mismatch imo. It might actually free up Thiago Silva more to cover Platini as well.

Come on that's all a bit of stretch..

Thiago is not free from anything given Ronaldo would be attacking the area he is posted in. Gattuso is ok but that's the point, he is up against an all time great no.10. Even if you had Keane in there, Platini would have the upper hand. Overall, making a man for man comparison for MF trio is a losing game for you IMO. Cesare is fine, he is no sheep by any measure. In back line with his son and Rio, there is no liability, especially when you have Amoros on that side.

I am surprised over the "uproar" over Sivori's role. Indnyc has said his piece but

- Goal for us is to get maximum out of Platini and C.Ron. They are the two best attacking players on the pitch. I am not going to pretend that I have seen hundreds of hours of footage of Sivori but everything I read about him does not signify him as someone who can only play as a pure 10. Benzema who C.Ron plays with at Madrid is not an out and out 9 as well, probably a 9.5. Similarly at United he played with Rooney and Tevez who many would classify as support strikers than pure 9s. With Sivori we have the added benefit of him capable of switching to left when Ronaldo takes a more central role. And when you add in Platini and Neeskens as players comfortable with occupying central areas in penalty box, I don't see Sivori as an issue at all, he fits in well with attacking players capable of switching positions. It is no different to using Nedved on the right when his peak position was a LAM. If we sacrifice peak effectiveness of Sivori to aid Platini and C.Ron, then it is fine. Not everyone can play their favoured position in all stars' teams.

Let me know if you don't want me to post, I will stop.

 

[crappycraperson]

Woops started to write my post before seeing Indync above so will stop now!

 

[Indnyc]

Why? Platini is always a worry in his own right, but don't see what Gattuso has done wrong to get such a targeted comment.

Gattuso was a great player but anyone coming up against Platini is going to struggle and unless you are a world class DM, there will be targeted comments because that is an obvious mismatch.

At the other end, it looks a bit of a mess too. No striker? Sívori isn't exactly the best foil for Platini as a striker and Cristiano is occupying the area he could influence effectively to combine well.

Also, what is Cesare Maldini doing there? He doesn't HAVE to be played any more. Get shot of him, play Amoros (an excellent man marker) more conservative, Sívori-Lewa upfront and nominally give Cristiano the right wing with a license to roam. Simple.

We did think of having Lewa up top with Ronaldo and Platini behind but did not want a traditional striker.. Sivori gives us another dimension in attack as he can drop deep, interchange with Cristiano and also move to the right when required

Cesare Maldini is fine as a Right sided centerback.. He is on par with any of the defenders the opposition has. He provides extra protection against Ronaldinho

 

[Indnyc]

Gattuso was a key member of a successful Milan side in the DM role. I don’t think it’s really one sided as is being made out. It’s not any different to Stiles on Socrates imo. Not to mention that he will have support from one of the CBs as well.

Ronaldinho on Cesare Maldini is a clear mismatch. One was GOAT and while the other was a good defender. With Amoros playing higher up, him and Abidal will wreak havoc that side

Stiles played much of his career doing the dirty role of man marking people, breaking up play and generally being in your face nuisance. He is the perfect foil to look after Socrates much like he did against Eusebio in the 1966 World Cup. Your centerbacks have to deal with Sivori and Cristiano as well so it is unlikely that they will be able to help much against Platini

Cesare Maldini started his career as a Right back and then became a center back. He is in a great situation with Amoros as the right back helping out with Ronaldinho. Ronaldinho has been covered pretty well

 

[Gio]

Sivori was not necessarily a second striker only.. He was a forward who could play anywhere across the front.. The idea is to allow him and Cristiano to not be fixed in one position but move around

I quite like the concept of Sivori leading the line. Certainly buy it in the right conditions - would assume the right service (early ball in to feet, plenty of options to spin off) would be key. Only issue for me is him dropping off into the inside-left channel as Ronaldo powers through from the other side. If they play more like a conventional front two, I buy it more.

 

[antohan]

Gattuso was a great player but anyone coming up against Platini is going to struggle and unless you are a world class DM, there will be targeted comments because that is an obvious mismatch.



We did think of having Lewa up top with Ronaldo and Platini behind but did not want a traditional striker.. Sivori gives us another dimension in attack as he can drop deep, interchange with Cristiano and also move to the right when required

Cesare Maldini is fine as a Right sided centerback.. He is on par with any of the defenders the opposition has. He provides extra protection against Ronaldinho

This is comfortably a better team:

 

[Indnyc]

This is comfortably a better team:

Maybe.. But that moves Cristiano to the right which isn't utilizing his best skills.. Collectively we feel the formation we have brings out the best in Cristiano and
Platini and gives both Cristiano and Sivori a free role which they both liked

 

[Indnyc]

I quite like the concept of Sivori leading the line. Certainly buy it in the right conditions - would assume the right service (early ball in to feet, plenty of options to spin off) would be key. Only issue for me is him dropping off into the inside-left channel as Ronaldo powers through from the other side. If they play more like a conventional front two, I buy it more.

In this role, he would drop to the inside left only if Cristiano moves centrally.. Much like the Benzema/Ronaldo partnership where both players move about.. So there is limited overlap between the two

 

[Indnyc]

A lot of discussion so far on Sivori but would like to bring up Nedved's position here.. Nedved's favored position was Left winger i.e. similar to what Ronaldinho is playing here or in the Socrates position. He'll do a job at Right wing but his best matches and peak was at LAM. With P.Maldini playing there, i can see him not getting much joy at all.

Our defense is much better than the oppositions to handle their attackers. In Maldini family, Ferdinand, Amoros and Cabrini you have as good a back 5 as you can get.

 

[Gio]

A lot of discussion so far on Sivori but would like to bring up Nedved's position here.. Nedved's favored position was Left winger i.e. similar to what Ronaldinho is playing here or in the Socrates position. He'll do a job at Right wing but his best matches and peak was at LAM. With P.Maldini playing there, i can see him not getting much joy at all.

Our defense is much better than the oppositions to handle their attackers. In Maldini family, Ferdinand, Amoros and Cabrini you have as good a back 5 as you can get.

The reason behind that is Nedved playing on the right or left doesn’t critically impact the functionality of the whole attacking unit, whereas your attack hinges on Sivori’s role.

 

[Indnyc]

The reason behind that is Nedved playing on the right or left doesn’t critically impact the functionality of the whole attacking unit, whereas your attack hinges on Sivori’s role.

Ronaldo and him are intelligent enough to interchange positions and Sivori will also move to the right/drop deep when required. So there shouldn't be a hindrance to the team

My point on Nedved is he isn't adding significant value to the attack from that position.. He is a great player and will cause trouble for most defenses but that's not his favored position. Given he was a reinforcement pick, i would assume you would want him to play in his best position

 

[Physiocrat]

Why? Platini is always a worry in his own right, but don't see what Gattuso has done wrong to get such a targeted comment.

Of course Platini is a handful for anyone. I just don't think Gattuso is a good fit as a DM in any system let alone against Platini. I'd rather have Ince there (IIRC he's in his squad)

 

[antohan]

Maybe.. But that moves Cristiano to the right which isn't utilizing his best skills.. Collectively we feel the formation we have brings out the best in Cristiano and
Platini and gives both Cristiano and Sivori a free role which they both liked

It really doesn't though. Particularly with Platini, he is your playmaker and you are giving him nothing out right and a subdued Sívori who has to be off his game not to interfere with Cristiano.

Platini calls for movement ahead of him and Sívori as a second striker, a referencia de área in Lewandowski and Cristiano nominally right but free to roam and pop in elsewhere makes for an attack far more difficult to contain.

 

[antohan]

Of course Platini is a handful for anyone. I just don't think Gattuso is a good fit as a DM in any system let alone against Platini. I'd rather have Ince there (IIRC he's in his squad)

Gattuso is the only one in that trio I would keep. Ince and Gattuso behind Raí would be a better unit than the current one. Less famous, sure, but a better unit.

 

[Indnyc]

I think we have defended Sivori's position quite a bit so far.. He isn't playing a traditional SS role and will drift around to accommodate Cristiano, Platini and Neeskens. Amoros and Cabrini will provide additional width on the flanks. There is enough in this attack to score and win the game.

Our midfield is much more superior to what the opposition has and a defense which will neutralize the opposition attack. Nedved isn't playing in his favored position and Ronaldinho will have both Amoros and C.Maldini on that side

 

[idmanager]

I like both the starting lineups.
The formation pictures could have been much more better.

Ronaldo as a right forward with Sivori left and Platini in the false 9 role would have been how I would have played it.
With Cabrini and Amoros, a back 4 is a bad idea and a back 5 is perfect. I have never watch C.Maldini play, so will refrain from commenting on him.
Ronaldo on the right won't be as devastating as Ronaldo on the left is not always true, especially as a forward in a two man setup rather than a wing forward.
In a 3-4-1-2 with a play maker like Platini behind, I wouldn't mind putting Ronaldo anywhere across the front line.
Platini scored loads as well. I love that front 3. Not the best arrangement though.

Coming to the Nedved and Gattuso team, again, not the best way of arranging the players IMO although the lineup is perfectly fine.
Nedved could be much more deeper helping in the midfield battle with a slight rightward drift on Socrates, which makes the job easier for Gattuso as well while making the right hand side unpredictable.
Coluna probably would need to be moved as well.

Keeping these minor things aside, I think both teams are well built although not very flashy or the best of the rest lot.
For now Cabrini and Amoros make me tilt slightly towards the Platini team. Would vote after reading a few more arguments. Good luck.

 

[Indnyc]

Our lineup could easily be something like this while attacking



Or the other way around with Sivori on the right and Cristiano on the left.. Both of them are given a free role to drift around and interchange.. Platini is can then find either of them, score himself or setup Neeskens to run from deep

Amoros and Cabrini then add width to the attack as required.

 

[antohan]

Our lineup could easily be something like this while attacking



Or the other way around with Sivori on the right and Cristiano on the left.. Both of them are given a free role to drift around and interchange.. Platini is can then find either of them, score himself or setup Neeskens to run from deep

Amoros and Cabrini then add width to the attack as required.

You are leaving three at the back to deal with lone frontman Denis Law. He is good alright, but that's crazy.

 

[Indnyc]

You are leaving three at the back to deal with lone frontman Denis Law. He is good alright, but that's crazy.

Plus Socrates and Ronaldinho to avoid getting caught on quick counters

 

[Indnyc]

Final pitch from my side before i go to bed.

Key points one why we will win

a) Superior Attack: In Platini and Cristiano we have two of the greatest of all times.. Platini is allowed to dictate play from midfield. Cristiano and Sivori are given a free role to do their thing.

b) Balanced midfield: Stiles and Neeskens compliment each other. With a 3 man defense Neeskens is given the license to join the attack and be the furthest player like he was with the Dutch teams. Cabrini and Amoros provide width as wing backs and overload the wide areas

c) Strong Defence: P.Maldini is the best defender on the pitch and is backed by Rio and C. Maldini to counter any attacks from the opposition. Ferdinand will bring the ball out from defence when required.

Gattuso and Nedved aren’t playing in their favored positions and Law will be isolated upfront. In short, we will be able to stop the opposition and back ourselves to score against that defense.

@crappycraperson can do the remaining arguments when he comes online

 

[crappycraperson]

Bumping bump

 

[crappycraperson]

Both of us voting for our team is going to cost us



Edit switched to give a
Better pic of tally

 

[crappycraperson]

Platini or Ronaldo to score last min goal!