Edgar Allan Pillow
Ero-Sennin
Is Elkenigge now a thing? Do we start giving draft pairings nicknames? That's kinda great .
Doesn't work well all the time. Bastekas or Pusten ain't goin nowhere
Is Elkenigge now a thing? Do we start giving draft pairings nicknames? That's kinda great .
I really think that this is Joga's best formation - yes, I will bother him with my left side, but he has Pluskal and Desailly here to cover. Despite Joga keeping a straight face here, we all know that 7:1 is not something that I can overcome here, especially against such well-constructed side as his, so don't think that I'm not saying this genuinely.Sure, but he isn't the sort of midfielder you need there IMO. What made him excellent isn't required all that much and nowhere near as much as other qualities are needed in your midfield.
Granted, those are also needed on the basis I really dislike Desailly there, I understand the idea but don't think it works all that well.
Essentially, you should be playing Desailly in defence and a more beastly defensive midfielder to deal with Schuster and the occasions when Sarosi drops/Meazza drifts in.
You don't have the chance to make BOTH changes given squad/restriction so I understand how you are trying to work around it, but it impoverishes your side. It's not as good as the sum of individual parts, his midfield makes far more sense any way you look at it.
Dzarozza?Doesn't work well all the time. Bastekas or Pusten ain't goin nowhere
I really think that this is Joga's best formation
Tbh, I would just swap Suarez with Effenberg in original formation.
5-3-2 with Pluskal and Effenberg running loads for Platini and a front 2. Much simpler.
Suarez, whom I don't like here and I don't think that he will compliment Platini, is a must - because Joga only has Pluskal and Platzer-Taibi as his pre-66 players.Tbh, I would just swap Suarez with Effenberg in original formation.
5-3-2 with Pluskal and Effenberg running loads for Platini and a front 2. Much simpler.
Yeah, it's certainly is the reason. When you look at his performance against Germany in 1976, for example, there are three different stages of his game. In the first 50-60 minutes or so he plays like a god, he finds his teammates with his great passing and he feels strong enough to constantly take on (and win) Vogts. In the last 30-20 minutes, when he thinks that the game is done, he plays it safe and keeps it simple - both strategically and because he is already tired, he was way past his peak at the time. And then, when Germany scored and moved this to the extra-time, he decides "feck it!". He knows that his teammates are already tired and don't believe that they can win it, so he pick the ball and run, pick the ball and run, he finds himself in dangerous positions inside the box, he gets fouled a lot (a very Alonso-esque foul from Beckenbauer, how the hell was not a red?)... That's what happens when he realises that his teammates are useless pieces of crap that lost their 2:0 lead and failed to score from his crosses to make it 3:0 But he is playing with his equals here.Fair enough but I did watch full games of Dzajic but he never really came across as that player. Tbf, it could also have been due to him bearing the responsibility of carrying his team almost single-handedly which brought out the most individualism in him.
Doesn't work well all the time. Bastekas or Pusten ain't goin nowhere
Suarez is needed as a Pre-66 I think.
Agree though that Effenberg still works better if it were possible. Still not ideal, but goes to show how surplus to requirements Suárez' best attributes are here
Still, I don't agree with the logic of dropping Demyanenko
Maybe, the best formation without age restrictions certainly includes Demyanenko instead of Suarez here, but with them I would prefer Effenberg in the centre.Still, I don't agree with the logic of dropping Demyanenko. He is getting a rough ride from @harms but he is absolutely fine in that role and the system overall works better with 3 + WBs IMO.
Despite Joga keeping a straight face here, we all know that 7:1 is not something that I can overcome here, especially against such well-constructed side as his, so don't think that I'm not saying this genuinely.
Maybe, the best formation without age restrictions certainly includes Demyanenko instead of Suarez here, but with them I would prefer Effenberg in the centre.
It's just that Demyanenko, who is fine by himself, is still one of the weakest performers on the pitch (well, look at the names, no shame here), and he is up against the best LB and the best LW in the draft. Hence the critique.
Yes mate, it would work. In the sense that Suárez was a tactically intelligent player in the mould of a CM/AM for Spain '64 but he wasn't a Pirlo or heck even a Xavi type of a player who would hamper Platini here.
"I started deep but covered a lot of ground and I had a wide perspective and vision. I had a change of pace, good technique and could shoot from outside the box." He shares a special affinity with one of his Barça successors, saying: "I recognise myslef in Andrés Iniesta, because he's always looking to finish off a move himself or looking for a team-mate to score."
As Suárez himself says, a more versatile and tactically intelligent player like Iniesta would be the more apt comparison here. A fine hybrid of a ball carrying player and a passer who is versatile in various phases with added tactical nous and a fair bit of defensive ability (under tutelage from Herrera at this time naturally).
I've posted this video a lot of times and said that he didn't morph into a Pirlo during his Inter phase a few times as well .
The point being that he is perfect here as a tactically intelligent player who can stay deep when needed and play a supporting role to Platini or make a forward incision and go on one of his mazy runs if Platini decides to drop deep (a key feature of Platini's game). It gives them both a wide berth to function in and gets the best out of them. Just think of an immense upgrade of Giresse who also can function as a CM. He is absolutely vital in this set-up. I knew I might face the two playmakers = Not complementary accusations etc. Heck I even got that for Suarez-Schuster in my sheep draft initially but the key was that they both had a fair mix of qualities that meant they could function together. Platini is more rigid than Schuster, most definitely, however it is the CM-AM version of Suárez here and not the Barca AM version or the Inter DLP version which would be a bad fit here. It isn't like I'am playing Bozsik (whom I very well could have got in reinforcements and he does get rated very highly, justifiably so) or say, Netzer here.
The Spain version who remained fairly central but still loved to burst forward when needed is perfect here. For instance, as stated in the OP, Suárez assisted 2 and played a major role in the other of the 3 goals that Spain scored in the semis and the final of the Euro 1964, which they won and he was widely regarded as the best player of the tournament.
The Giresse comparison seems a good one to me, and its what I originally thought of when I was judging whether Suarez/Platini would work. Suarez seems to have shared Giresse's ability to peel out wide to create chances too, which is a bonus given that Platini tended to operate so centrally. I'm confident the could work together.
The Giresse comparison seems a good one to me, and its what I originally thought of when I was judging whether Suarez/Platini would work. Suarez seems to have shared Giresse's ability to peel out wide to create chances too, which is a bonus given that Platini tended to operate so centrally. I'm confident the could work together.
I agree. Suarez is not a ball hugging playmaker, rather a very all round player with good dribbling, great off the ball runs and he linked up great with most players he played with. "Pass - then run in to space" type of player who could be so effective because he handled the wide areas as well which made him operate at a really high level everywhere.
The thing is Suarez is far more than a better version of Giresse. Would he be content with a Giresse role? Probably not. One of the cases where the total is slightly lesser than sum of its parts imo. Functional not optimal.
The midfield now looks a little lightweight, isn't it?
Suarez - Platini. I'm not sure if they are the best fit for each other, even though both are fantastic and intelligent players, I just don't see them having the best of games, I don't feel the chemistry between them - do you? This is a minor issue.
will Suarez/Platini work...
and both Platini and Suarez aren't exactly a ball-winners themselves.
Platini with Suarez are hardly defensive contributors themselves
only Pluskal is there to win the ball for Suarez
Sure, but he isn't the sort of midfielder you need there IMO. What made him excellent isn't required all that much and nowhere near as much as other qualities are needed in your midfield.
Granted, those are also needed on the basis I really dislike Desailly there, I understand the idea but don't think it works all that well.
Essentially, you should be playing Desailly in defence and a more beastly defensive midfielder to deal with Schuster and the occasions when Sarosi drops/Meazza drifts in.
You don't have the chance to make BOTH changes given squad/restriction so I understand how you are trying to work around it, but it impoverishes your side. It's not as good as the sum of individual parts, his midfield makes far more sense any way you look at it.
Agree though that Effenberg still works better if it were possible. Still not ideal, but goes to show how surplus to requirements Suárez' best attributes are here.
The thing is Suarez is far more than a better version of Giresse. Would he be content with a Giresse role? Probably not. One of the cases where the total is slightly lesser than sum of its parts imo. Functional not optimal.
instead of Suarez here, but with them I would prefer Effenberg in the centre
Suarez, whom I don't like here and I don't think that he will compliment Platini
I agree. Suarez is not a ball hugging playmaker, rather a very all round player with good dribbling, great off the ball runs and he linked up great with most players he played with. "Pass - then run in to space" type of player who could be so effective because he handled the wide areas as well which made him operate at a really high level everywhere.
The thing is Suarez is far more than a better version of Giresse. Would he be content with a Giresse role? Probably not. One of the cases where the total is slightly lesser than sum of its parts imo. Functional not optimal.
I don't even for a minute think Suárez won't work. It is more a case of Joga needing a more defensively sound midfielder. To be honest, sticking Pluskal there doesn't fly with me at this stage.
Pluskal, I admit, is a mystery to me and in the absence of any argument to the contrary I'm just viewing him as a very good but not great all-rounder like an Antonio Conte.
done. Sorry for the delay, went to bed shortly before you posted.Tactical change with Desailly slotting back into defense. @Balu
done. Sorry for the delay, went to bed shortly before you posted.
??? He's still on the bench, isn't he?I like the change Joga, changed my vote.. to clarify for me the Suarez-Platini combination wasn't an issue, it was more me posing the question to see how you'd respond and explain it.
I like the defence better now and Effenberg adds to an already one sided midfield battle in my opinion. Your team will dictate the game, more numbers in there and simply the better midfielders too taken as a whole.
I like the change Joga, changed my vote.. to clarify for me the Suarez-Platini combination wasn't an issue, it was more me posing the question to see how you'd respond and explain it.
??? He's still on the bench, isn't he?
??? He's still on the bench, isn't he?
Agreed on Suarez, but I loved Joga's original formation and I wish he hadn't moved Desailly to centre back. For me he was at his absolute peak as a defensive midfielder and I found nothing wrong with Joga's tactical depiction of him.
Pluskal, I admit, is a mystery to me and in the absence of any argument to the contrary I'm just viewing him as a very good but not great all-rounder like an Antonio Conte.
His status as one of the best centre-halves of his era was established by his appearance in the Rest of the World XI against England, in Wembley to commemorate the prestigious centenary year of English football. A quick look at the XI would be revealing (Yashin-Djalma Santos-Schnellinger-PLUSKAL-Popluhar-Masopust-Kopa-Denis Law-Di Stefano-Eusebio-Gento, with Puskas and Seeler on the bench); truly your cream of the crop bunch and not your average past it ceremonial XI.
The last manager to invoke that game as proof of quality was @Cutch, but you seem to have overlooked Fefo Eyzaguirre on the bench there.
Calamity is an understatement.
Why what happened in Cutch's match? I don't really know too much about Eyzaguirre tbh, but the game itself did seem all right, in that it was a fixture celebrating a prestigious event and it was fairly competitive. Back when the Rest of the World/Europe XIs etc and friendlies used to mean something.
I'm surprised you kept Eyzaguirre with McGrath available to shore up the RB spot.
Its only Thierry Henry. If he was faced with a Best, Ronaldo or Garrincha perhaps but when Ronaldo is on offer theres no way i'm turning that down.
Eyzaguirre is more than capable. He'll be fine.
Eyzaguirre EXPOSED
Brwned said:He was known as an outstanding attacking right back. Roberto Carlos is considered one of the outstanding left backs of his time but he'd have a nightmare up against Stoichkov - I think it's the same here with Eyzaguirre v Henry. I watched him against Italy in '62 the other week and thought about compiling a clip of all his defensive lapses for our game but couldn't be bothered in the end, here's one example of his idea of defending in that game.
That one clip doesn't prove anything but you'll have to take my word for it. He got caught under the ball for that long diagonal countless times and got sucked into the tackle over and over again. Great on the ball though, excellent passer for a fullback and really composed in possession.
This prompted me to watch one of the most dour games of football I've seen. I was making a clip but it was taking forever as I had to keep stopping, chopping, etc. and these were the most inept Italians I've ever seen so they did no damage as a result. Ultimately, once Italy were reduced to 9 you could also excuse him being so far up the pitch and relying on the CB to cover (he does, a lot).
So I picked the Brazil game and fast forwarded to the four goals conceded. Lo and behold, he is at fault or has "WTF?" moments/positioning in all of them.
But surely, if playing for Rest of the World (their manager being the Chile manager) is testament to his quality and how he peaked so brightly as one of the best in the World, why not find footage on that game? He would then be playing alongside the sort of players on this draft! Brilliant.
Here it is, he came on in the second half at 0-0 for Djalma Santos. The guy really is not a defender. Everyone caught on to that immediately as most of the England attacks switched from right to left flank from one half to the next (despite England not making subs).
His positioning is atrocious, half the time you don't have the first clue what he could possibly be doing. He is lackadaisical, walks around watching on as his side is torn apart, has no composure, no reaction, no physical presence, nothing.
He is without a shadow of a doubt the worst fullback in this draft, John O'Shea would actually do a more competent job on Henry, and I'm not exaggerating.
But enough of me talking, here's Eyzaguirre playing with the very best, straight from English Pathé. You make up your own mind.
You may need to watch that a few times for it to sink in as some of the play is and it's hard to keep focused on where the feck Eyzaguirre has gone AWOL to, or the fact the man he was tracking suddenly appears on screen and then Eyzaguirre appears, several yards late.
Of course, the Chilean press had some major coverage of the event, blamed the rest of the team for not showing up (serious, I have the full article) and highlighted Yashin's performance in the first half -helps explain the goals that he came out, although he was indeed exceptional- and Eyzaguirre as one of the few bright lights in the RotW performance.
AT THIS LEVEL PLAYERS DON'T FREE-SCORE (WHICH MANY OF MINE DID), IT IS GLARING MISMATCHES THAT DECIDE GAMES AND THERE'S NO GREATER X-RATED MISMATCH THAN FACCHETTI AND HENRY ON EYZAGUIRRE.
THAT'S THE SORT OF ACHILLES HEEL THAT GETS MERCILESSLY EXPOSED TIME AND AGAIN UNTIL, SOONER OR LATER, THE GOALS COME
EYZAGUIRRE WAS PICKED BECAUSE AT HIS PEAK HE WAS CALLED UP FOR "REST OF THE WORLD" (BY A CHILEAN MANAGER). HERE'S A PATHE CLIP OF THE GAME. HE IS THE THE NUMBER 2 IN BLUE IN THE 2ND HALF.
The right back being a liability means John Charles will be dragged out of position. The moment he is, I no longer have to worry about his aerial dominance, any crosses I float in will find Stoichkov & Pelé v Santos & Baresi. Baresi is in all sorts of trouble against Pelé.
Right guys, time to hold up the white flag.
Anto is the deserved winner here. The acquisition of Pele and Maradona in the last couple of rounds was a disaster for my chances here. He's got an extremely strong spine with very few weaknesses.
Re: Eyzaguirre, fecking nightmare. Couldn't get the fecker out of my side, worse than a rash. Every opponent i faced and none i could nick a right back off (didn't know McGrath played there).
Played a bit on the popular picks (would be silly not to), as i havn't seen as much of a lot of these older players as some of the rest of you.
Been a good learning experience and good fun.
Well played Anto. Deserved winner.
I definitely prefer his midfield version and actually spent the last game screaming bloody murder he was wasted as one of three defenders on Baros.
In this case though the defence absolutely needed him and the case for him in midfield was comparatively weak.
In fact, this game is a killer blow for Team EAP as Desailly for Deschamps would have both improved his already great midfield and quelled any concerns on his defence.
I actually give him more credit than that, but taking your Conte: do you really think Suárez was what that midfield needed next to a Conte?
It's a bit fallacious though as Pluskal ain't a Conte. In fact, he would make a very complementary mudfield pair, but with Platini in there I get the feeling a different sortof player would be a better fit.
Pele, Maradona, Beckenbauer, Rijkaard, Figueroa, Andrade and Facchetti in one team. Christ .
When Henry is hands down your worst player, it says something. Even then he can play as a tactical role of making runs cutting inside, freeing up space for Facchetti to do the damage. Even Cutch's team was excellent bar the flank of Ronaldo and Eyzaguirre (relative to the company they had ofc).
However much I love the 1958 striker incarnation of Pelé, my ideal final team was this but with Ronaldo Fenómeno or Romario, but I never crosssed paths with those who had them.
Indeed, where were you that entire game when people told me I should swap Stoichkov and Henry because I needed a left-footer to expose Eyzaguirre? The whole point was Facchetti and Henry would work EXACTLY how you want it to work. They would completely destroy a great rightback, let alone a comical one.