The Euro Draft - SF - harms vs Joga Bonito

[Balu]

All players shall be judged only on their performances at the tournaments (From 1927 to 1960 the CEICs, from 1960 to 2012 the Euros). Please take this into account before voting. You can read up on the theme by clicking here.
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Team harms​

My team is built in the spirit of the Soviet side of 1980's - an individual brilliance balanced with a team coherence, all my players are disciplined and hardworking, and, at the same time, I have a spark of genius in Meazza and Schuster, directness and unpredictability of Dzajic and ruthlessness of Sarosi. It's a Communist's version of the Total Football - hard pressing when out of possession, rapid movement of the ball, and interchange of players while in. Control of the space is still the key, just like it was in the Michels' version, but it's not as dependent on luck (a several players of that Netherland side grew and played together for years) and more on the philosophy and the system. It's a system that requires, like every Lobanovsky's team, an insane level of fitness, but I have one of the best athletes in football's history on my side in Facchetti, Rijkaard, Brehme etc.

Versatility, completeness and, at the same time, different skillset of my players allows me to say it without any hesitation - the goal can came from anywhere, it can be a piece of magic from Meazza, an inevitable poacher goal from Sarosi, a smart run from Dzajic with his almost 1 in 1 record on 2 European Championships, a sheer brilliance of the young and electric Schuster, who created 4 goals in just 2 games of 1980 Euro, a set-piece goal from anyone of my defenders...

Difference from the quarter-finals:
I added up two unbelievable players, Facchetti and Rijkaard. Facchetti is the best left-back in the draft in my opinion, his only competitor here is Maldini, who edges it on longevity, but Facchetti's influence in Italy's win in 1968 was unmatched. Rijkaard's performance in 1988 as Koeman's defensive partner was as good as any other defensive performance in Euro history, I would rate him in 1988 and Beckenbauer in 1972 as two of my favorites, but Rijkaard is a better fit for my philosophy.

I already beat Platini once in the quarter-final, and there he is again, playing for even better team this time - the only difference is that I can't think of a better player than Rijkaard to play against Michele. He is one of the very few defensive players that can match Platini in their understanding of the game, he is comfortable just about everywhere on the pitch and, most importantly, he clearly is a superior athlete. Platini's only real weakness, as he stated himself, was when he was up against a tireless runners, like he was in the opening game of 1984 tournament against Denmark - he struggled to perform against two-lunged Berggreen and had, probably, his worst game of the tournament. It's not fair to say that I can completely handle Platini - he is the best player in the draft, no two ways about that, but I have the perfect set-up and personnel to reduce his influence as much as possible.

Another big change - I moved my German duo on the right flank, Schuster will play in his right-sided box-to-box role, in which he was at his best in the game against Netherlands, and Brehme will play as a right-back, like he did in the semi-final of 1988, for example. Ondrus will sweep in the back - like he did in his MotM performance against Cruyff's Netherlands in 1976, Joga's fluidness in attack reminds me of them a little, and Rijkaard will have a free role - he understands his football better than me, Lobanovsky or any of you, I would imagine. Both Brehme and Facchetti are ridiculously complete fullbacks, who can ran all day long and they are a good much for the unique blend of physicality and flair of Joga's inside forwards (I don't think that I need to say anything about Facchetti on that regard and watch how Brehme handles his rare duels with Gullit in that 1988 semi-final).

Points of discussion:

• Goalkeeping issue. Peter Platzer was the second choice for Austria when Hiden was around - and he played in the same era as two of my forwards, which makes in ridiculously easy for me to dig up some stats - Sarosi scored 4 goals in his 3 European games against him (I excluded the game when Platzer was subbed on for Hiden at 90 minute, Sarosi played as a central defender than anyway) and also 1 in 1 in the World Cup, which is, though, irrelevant. In the most important game of his life, semi-final of 1934 World Cup, he lost the ball after the clash with on other than Meazza and Austria lost 1:0. On the other hand, I have the best goalkeeper in history and in this draft, Lev Yashin.
• Suarez - Platini. I'm not sure if they are the best fit for each other, even though both are fantastic and intelligent players, I just don't see them having the best of games, I don't feel the chemistry between them - do you? This is a minor issue.
• Can't hurt to remind you that Moore was fooled by Dragan Dzajic in 1968 when England conceded a match-winning goal, that's what UEFA official report says: "Showing tremendous ball control for someone so tall and well built, he (Dzajic) beat three men with bewildering sleight of foot before being stopped by a fourth. When a long ball came in from the left, he stole behind the admirable Bobby Moore, chested it down and hammered it high past Gordon Banks in the England goal"

My write-up, as usual, looks a little negative on Joga's team, so I just want to say that he built a ridiculous side and it was easily my second favorite team through the draft, and it will be, regardless of the result. After replaying this game in my head over and over for the past week I convinced myself that my team has a slight edge over Joga's, but in a play-offs everything can happen. Anyway, good luck, Joga!

PLAYER PROFILES

HarmsTV presents:
Nothing of interest. I hope that you took your time earlier and watched my Van Moer and Schuster compilations that I posted in the main thread, because UEFA rejected my claims for fair use and blocked my content worldwide. Again. And I'm tired of fighting with hem. If you have any questions about performances of my players, don't hesitate to ask.

EURO form guide:
1. Yashin
1960, 1964 TotT; Ballon D'Or 1960 - 5th, 1964 - 8th; Player of the tournament 1960*
2. Facchetti
1968 TotT; Ballon D'Or 1968 - 5th
3. Ondrus
1976 TotT; Ballon D'Or 1976 - 6th
4. Rijkaard
1988 TotT; Ballon D'Or 1988 - 3rd
5. Brehme
1984, 1992 TotT
6. Voronin
Best Soviet player 1964; Ballon D'Or 1964 - 11th
7. Van Moer
Ballon D'Or 1980 - 4th
8. Schuster
1980 TotT; Ballon D'Or 1980 2nd
9. Dzajic
1968, 1976 TotT; Ballon D'Or 1968 - 3rd; Top-scorer 1968 (2 goals); Player of the tournament 1968*
10. Meazza
CEIC Champion 1927/30, 1933/35; runner-up 1931/32, 1936/38 (abandoned, Italy were first by lost points). The best football player in Italian history according to Italian Football Federation.
11. Sarosi
CEIC "Champion" 1936/38 (abandoned); CEIC top-scorer 1933/35 (7 goals), 1936/38 (10 goals). All-time CEIC leading goalscorer

Subs:
12. Viktor
1976 TotT; Ballon D'Or 1976 - 3rd; Player of the tournament 1976*
13. Rava
CEIC runner-up 1936/38 (abandoned, Italy were first by lost points)
14. Khurtsilava
1972 TotT; Ballon D'Or 1972 - 11th
15. Bezsonov
Runner-up 1988
16. Chislenko
Runner-up 1964

*There was no official player of the tournament award until 1996, yet Yashin, Dzajic and Viktor are widely recognized as the best players in 1960, 1968 and 1976 respectively.

Spoiler

vs

tactical change during the first half

Spoiler: original line-up

 

[Balu]

Team Joga Bonito​

Key Tactical Changes

Addition of Le Roi and El Arquitecto

A substantial injection of flair and match-winning prowess with the inclusions of Suárez and Platini in their peak 'one-man tournament winning' form.

The heart and soul of the '64 Spanish vintage which won the Euros, Suárez had been specially flown to each match with a private charter machine from Italy, by the Spanish Football Association. And it was well worth it. In the semifinal Suarez provided the pass for right winger Amancio to score the winning goal in the 2-1 win against Hungary. In the final against the Soviet Union, the then 29-year-old carved out both goals to gave the Spanish side a 2-1 win. The USSR keeper Lev Yashin’s spell had been broken. Spain heralded by El Arquitecto, succeeded in winning a major title with their national team for the first and only time up to 2008. All this on the back of a European Cup triumph with Inter – after beating Real Madrid 3-1. The mercurial Suárez inevitably ended up as runner-up in the Ballon d'Or to a non-Euro participating and our very own Denis Law.

The peerless Platini brought forth the apogee of European Championship performances in 1984. Simply put, no one else compares to the individual impact he made on the Euros and his perfect amalgam of classy playmaking and lethal goalscoring prowess. Captaining the Bleus to their first international trophy, he scored in all five matches, including hat-tricks against Belgium and Yugoslavia, with his other three goals being all winners - including strikes in the semi-final and the final against Spain. The second top scorer, Arnesen, finished with 3 goals - a tally which was a paltry one-third of Platini's 9 (only one of which was a pen as opposed to Arnesen's two penalties). Even then, Platini's goals doesn't even begin to paint the full picture of Le Roi's incomparable contributions - he commandeered the team and was the heartbeat and conductor of that glorious French ensemble. One of the greatest individual knock-out tournament performances of all time.


Defensive Line : Normal-Slightly pushed up

Style of Play :

Offensive Phase

Spoiler: Offensive Phase

Elkenigge making decoy runs out wide, dragging defenders away, opening up space for Platini who makes his trademark run forward, with Suarez looking to take up support playmaking duties if needed.

As I will elaborate below, it doesn't mean Elkenigge's sole job is making space for Platini nor are they just making harmless tactical decoy runs. They can make incisive runs into the box before/after their forays out wide - with Platini and Suárez being the glorious supply line - to add an element of unpredictability to my set-up.

Something like this for example

The dual threat of the twin-pronged Elkenigge and the magical Platini will be a mouth watering blend, capable of both unstoppable tactical combinations and sheer individual brilliance. Bluntly put, it will be hard to find a more complementary pair for Platini here - a terrific duo of electric forwards who aren't just compatible with Platini, but will actually bring out the best in him without, crucially, any drop in individual quality.

Do not make the mistake of downplaying Elkenigge as mere 'tactical pawns' here. Unlike a few of Platini's club/international forwards, who lost their threat on the ball, after their tactical errand of making space for Platini by moving out wide/making decoy runs had been completed (almost as if to say - there I've done my bit, now it's up to you (Platini)), Elkenigge are equally deadly out wide and more so in the case of Rummenigge. Meaning, Elkenigge aren't just sheer tactical components who are just making space for Platini but are individual threats themselves, who pose a threat on their runs and aren't impotent in the secondary phases.

Their effectiveness doesn't become diminish or become redundant in any phase of that tactical manoeuvre. That is the beauty and synergy of this symbiotic partnership, Platini-Elkenigge will both thrive off each other, without either reducing each other to a bit-part role, solely designed in bringing the best out of the other component.

Spoiler: Offensive Phase 2

Suárez can push up further forward for some insane link-up play with Platini, with the impenetrable barrier of Pluskal-Desailly protecting the back-line.

(Suárez's intelligent gameplay and forward incursions, provide full freedom for Platini to roam around and take command in midfield, especially fulfilling his penchant for dropping back and getting on the ball.)

Another quintessential feature of the offensive dimension of my game, would be the contribution of Suárez here - who will prove to be paramount in elevating Platini's influence, all whilst posing a major threat on the ball himself - with his mazy runs and rapier like through balls. A tactically astute player, the CM-AM version of Luisito will cherish playing alongside a fellow technical genius in Platini. Be it linking up with Platini higher up the pitch - safe in the knowledge that there is the barricade of Pluskal-Desailly protecting the backline - or making a forward incursion with Platini dropping back to cause chaos and confusion in the opposition's defense, Suárez is an all-round threat.

Naturally this tactical synchrony allows both Platini and Suárez full freedom of expression tactically, without particularly limiting their influence in certain phases/areas of the pitch, thereby providing them the ideal platforms to shine. Once again, as with Elkenigge, do not brush off Suárez's forward forays as just a trivial tactical manoeuvre, designed in getting the best out of Platini - this is THE star player of Euro 1964 Suárez (who assisted 2 goals and played a crucial part in the other of the 3 goals that Spain scored in the semis and final whilst also finishing 2nd in the Ballon d'Or) that we are talking about here.

 

[Balu]

Defensive Phase

Spoiler: Defensive Phase

Off the ball, Desailly will be dropping back into defense, esp when the ball is out wide for harms. Naturally, this is a particularly effective manoeuvre against the imposing left flank of harms which consists of Facchetti and Dzajic. This tactical scheme, leaves Dzajic facing one of the very few RBs who could stop him in his this draft - Bergomi - whilst leaving the effervescent Demyanenko, to deal with the potential forward forays of Facchetti. Demyanenko is ideally suited for this role as he can both function as a defensive player, tracking runners and being reliable on one v ones and also as a buccaneering offensive player with his wingmanship, sheer pace and deliveries from out wide. harms left flank couldn't possibly face more resistance here and having an astute and complete player in Demyanenko, is much better than having a right midfielder or a winger who would in all likelihood, find it overwhelming to come to grips with Facchetti.

More importantly, Desailly dropping back into defense is well facilitated by the tactical intelligent Suárez and the formidable holding midfielder Pluskal forming a great transitional midfield duo of sorts, with Platini ahead of them, thus not compromising the integrity of the midfield in any way.

It's a bird. It's a plane. it's Superm... No it's Elkenigge

Spoiler: Gifs of Elkenigge

Another key facet of my off-the ball game would include Elkenigge dropping into the flanks (as the diagram under defensive phase would illustrate) to pose a direct and rapid counter attacking threat whilst also functioning as an immediate out-ball. Naturally, with 2 forward oriented WBs in Brehme/Bezsonov and Facchetti, there will be space left behind on the flanks that could be capitalized on. I'm not stating that they are gung-ho and reckless WBs, they are clearly not and are quality players who know when to pick their moments but even then, they naturally had players covering for them. In this match-up though, Rijkaard will find it tough to leave Platini alone for a moment, Dzajic-Meazza won't offer much tracking back and he has two slow CBs who won't be at ease covering the flanks. This will inevitably create openings on the flanks off the ball, which can be seized upon on a quick transition/counter-attack. Not many are better suited to executing this stratagem, than the electric Elkenigge who are absolutely rapid whilst possessing an incisive threat from the channels/flanks.


Why I'd Win This

1) Multi-faceted attack

It is a complete attack with many avenues to goal - be it Elkenigge's direct threat, their incisive incursions from out wide, their dummy runs facilitating Platini's runs forward, Platini putting it on a plate for them with his vision, Demyanenko's searing forward forays, Suárez creating a plethora of goalscoring chances and putting it in the net himself. Overload your resources on stopping one of those components and the others will capitalise on the resultant space and/or time on the ball. It is simply too deadly an attack to stop, with all of them being fairly complete footballers who are gifted in various phases of the game. For instance, all three of Platini, Rummenigge and Elkjaer possess elusive movement, a composed finish and are equally well versed at putting the ball in the net, with their left foot, right foot and their head (Platini had quite the header on him). Talk about potency.

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Good luck @harms @Joga Bonito

 

[Annahnomoss]

 

[Raees]

Feckin scavengers... Beckenbauer in the last game, L. Suarez, Rijkaard and Facchetti . No Zebec?

Anyway as to the game, tough match up.. few goals to be scored here due to the strength of both defences but Joga's midfield is mind-bogglingly good.. will Suarez/Platini work... is it meant to be a Zico/Socrates combination?

 

[harms]

My players are acting strangely at your defensive phase image, what's there behind my goal, an ice cream truck?

On a serious note, good luck, @Joga Bonito, may the best team win.

 

[harms]

I feel like you underestimated my right flank - this axis of Meazza - Schuster - Brehme is as good as any and I would argue that my attack is even more "multi-faceted" than yours, which is your first and only argument in "Why I'd win this" . Anyway, I'll wait until you're here to continue.

Dzajic not tracking back is a strange argument also, I only have Meazza that won't contribute much to defensive play, and both Platini and Suarez aren't exactly a ball-winners themselves.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I feel like you underestimated my right flank - this axis of Meazza - Schuster - Brehme is as good as any and I would argue that my attack is even more "multi-faceted" than yours, which is your first and only argument in "Why I'd win this" . Anyway, I'll wait until you're here to continue.

Dzajic not tracking back is a strange argument also, I only have Meazza that won't contribute much to defensive play, and both Platini and Suarez aren't exactly a ball-winners themselves.

I watched Platini in his Euro for this game and I wouldn't agree with that. He often dropped back to central midfield to win the ball, or force a mistake and then orchestrated the following attack from the central midfield. He was involved in winning the ball plenty of times.

Suarez Euro I haven't watched extensively myself yet.

 

[harms]

I watched Platini in his Euro for this game and I wouldn't agree with that. He often dropped back to central midfield to win the ball, or force a mistake and then orchestrated the following attack from the central midfield. He was involved in winning the ball plenty of times.

Suarez Euro I haven't watched extensively myself yet.

That's why I haven't mentioned it in OP - but I'm quite sure that Meazza did that too - he forced a Platzer's mistake for example, he wasn't the one to run away from a tackle. But if you say that Dzajic doesn't contribute then, by this standards, Platini with Suarez are hardly defensive contributors themselves (when, in my opinion, neither are a liability)

 

[Annahnomoss]

That's why I haven't mentioned it in OP - but I'm quite sure that Meazza did that too - he forced a Platzer's mistake for example, he wasn't the one to run away from a tackle. But if you say that Dzajic doesn't contribute then, by this standards, Platini with Suarez are hardly defensive contributors themselves (when, in my opinion, neither are a liability)

I think Dzajic is more of a wing-forward than a right midfielder, or a modern winger who has a huge part to play defensively. Defensively more of a George Best type so to say a classic winger. I think a more relevant discussion would be how Rummenigge and Elkjaer compares in this regard to Meazza-Dzajic as they're defensively playing the same roles(out wide.)

Suarez as a central midfielder clearly had a lot more defensive responsibility than those four and the same goes for Platini. Would just be a disservice for your team to compare the defensive contribution of your wing forwards to one of his central midfielders.

 

[harms]

I think Dzajic is more of a wing-forward than a right midfielder, or a modern winger who has a huge part to play defensively. Defensively more of a George Best type so to say a classic winger. I think a more relevant discussion would be how Rummenigge and Elkjaer compares in this regard to Meazza-Dzajic as they're defensively playing the same roles(out wide.)

Suarez as a central midfielder clearly had a lot more defensive responsibility than those four and the same goes for Platini. Would just be a disservice for your team to compare the defensive contribution of your wing forwards to one of his central midfielders.

My equation was dzajic + meazza vs elkjaer + rummenigge = van moer + schuster vs platini + suarez in terms of workrate and defensive contribution, but not my wingforwards, nor his midfielders are not a liability ala Pirlo and will do their fair share of defensive work.

Best is not the best comparison for Dzajic, who was more of a team player and contributed more in a defensive side of the game than Georgie.

 

[Annahnomoss]

My equation was dzajic + meazza vs elkjaer + rummenigge = van moer + schuster vs platini + suarez in terms of workrate and defensive contribution, but not my wingforwards, nor his midfielders are not a liability ala Pirlo and will do their fair share of defensive work.

Best is not the best comparison for Dzajic, who was more of a team player and contributed more in a defensive side of the game than Georgie.

Hmm...Personally I think that Dzajic-Meazza-Sarosi versus Elkjaer-Platini-Rummenigge should be the clear comparison. The front three of both teams who will defend from similar positions as well, how will Sarosi defend by the way? He's your spearhead striker here.

Then Desailly-Pluskal-Suarez versus van Moer-Voronin-Schuster.

 

[harms]

Hmm...Personally I think that Dzajic-Meazza-Sarosi versus Elkjaer-Platini-Rummenigge should be the clear comparison. The front three of both teams who will defend from similar positions as well, how will Sarosi defend by the way? He's your spearhead striker here.

Then Desailly-Pluskal-Suarez versus van Moer-Voronin-Schuster.

I'll answer it when I'll get home, because it's a long one and it will be my first serious post about my issues with Joga's formation

 

[antohan]

Hmm...Personally I think that Dzajic-Meazza-Sarosi versus Elkjaer-Platini-Rummenigge should be the clear comparison. The front three of both teams who will defend from similar positions as well, how will Sarosi defend by the way? He's your spearhead striker here.

Then Desailly-Pluskal-Suarez versus van Moer-Voronin-Schuster.

Yups, I'm sort of comparing the trios but with odd outcomes:

1. I far prefer @harms' trio, but that's largely because I see no point whatsoever in Desailly's role. Yeah, yeah, Sarosi could drop deeper but I reckon @Joga really should have a full-time back three here if we are to believe those wingbacks will have any real and sustained influence going forward without leaving the defence somewhat exposed.

2. Which takes me to switching Joga's trio to include Platini, whom I agree will drop deep to start moves when needed and suddenly it looks more competitive for @Joga Bonito even when I don't see much need for Suárez. Schuster will have a better game here, by a mile.

3. But then I have to compare a duo and a trio upfront, don't I? But the thing is, Platini enters the conversation in both, quite clearly, that's why he is so damn special!!!!

4. So yeah, those attacks, againsst those defences... If Desailly were a full-time defender there's no amount of Dzajic/Meazza and Sarosi love and appreciation of their status in this competition that can get me to seeing them getting much joy. Elkenigge with Platini exploiting the gaps? They will eviscerate that defence, it's not a fair contest really.

 

[harms]

My main problem with those trio's is Desailly's role in midfield.

Sarosi is quite literally the most clinical goalscorer in the draft and, by Joga's description, he is up against Moore - as Bergomi is stopping Dzajic full-time here, okay. Moore had a good Euro when he made one crucial mistake in 2 games - he isn't his usual self, but even if he were, he always needed a more physical partner because he isn't up to deal with them. Sarosi is your definition of a physical forward, he bullied his way upfront after starting his career as a central defender, where he won every header.

The player that looks best-equipped to deal with Sarosi here is, no doubt about that, Desailly, but where is he? In midfield? Why? If he is playing as a defender full-time, which I expected, his defence really start to look great, but suddenly, only Pluskal is there to win the ball for Suarez and Platini, who isn't a full-time midfielder himself, while they are up against the ridiculously hard-working and well-balanced midfield of Voronin - Van Moer - Schuster, with the minor addition of Meazza, if we are counting Platini here. Doesn't look so good for Joga, does it?

And what is this shenanigans for? To field Demyanenko, the weakest on-field player here, who had an okay Euro but is looking our of place in the semi-final. I don't get this, really, he still won't help much neither in stopping Facchetti - Dzajic, nor he will not contribute offensively good enough to justify his inclusion. I'm baffled.


Re: Elkenigge + Platini exploiting the gaps. There won't be enough gaps to exploit. Voronin is an incredibly intelligent defensive midfielder, something Carrick-esque, but better physically, Ondrus closed all the gaps that the Clockwork Orange made by they impeccable movement in 1976, Rijkaard understood space like a few before and after him and Facchetti + Brehme are both tactically fantastic and physically up to the challenge. Not to mention that both Schuster and Van Moer regularly dropped to the defensive line to help their teams in 1980, like you all saw if you watched the games or my compilations.

Yashin also should be taken in consideration - he revolutionized the goalkeeper position, he was ridiculously fast and dominated the whole box like few did, he is named as a first sweeper-keeper in history - remember how Neuer saved Bayern's face in the first 30 minutes in a game against Barca, when they had 3 defenders on Messi - Suarez - Neymar trio? Yashin is the exactly the kind of presence in the back that will allow me to win this game. On the other hand, there is Platzer, with an astonishing record against my main striker, he conceded only 5 goals in 4 games against Sarosi, well done mate, surely he is looking for a clean-sheet here.

Another point - Elkjaer, with all his uniqueness and coolness and with keeping in mind that the only worthy upgrade for him in this particular role would've been Gullit, is the weakest attacker on the pitch. I know that this comment will start a crusade against me from Elkjaer-lovers, but I continue to say it. Brehme dealt with Gullit well enough to say that he will be okay with Elkjaer here.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Here give me a second.

 

[harms]

Here give me a second.

Can you spare me? You're winning 3:0 already

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Sarosi is the best striker in this match. Desailly played purely as a CB means he has Sarosi to his front, rather than DM dropping into defence meaning Sarosi has opportunity to get behind him. Slight difference, but a crucial one imo nevertheless. And I'm still undecided on Suarez/Platini partnership. I get a feeling only one of them will have a good match here. Haven't been able to make up my mind on this.

 

[Joga Bonito]

will Suarez/Platini work... is it meant to be a Zico/Socrates combination?

even when I don't see much need for Suárez. Schuster will have a better game here, by a mile.

Yes mate, it would work. In the sense that Suárez was a tactically intelligent player in the mould of a CM/AM for Spain '64 but he wasn't a Pirlo or heck even a Xavi type of a player who would hamper Platini here.

"I started deep but covered a lot of ground and I had a wide perspective and vision. I had a change of pace, good technique and could shoot from outside the box." He shares a special affinity with one of his Barça successors, saying: "I recognise myslef in Andrés Iniesta, because he's always looking to finish off a move himself or looking for a team-mate to score."

As Suárez himself says, a more versatile and tactically intelligent player like Iniesta would be the more apt comparison here. A fine hybrid of a ball carrying player and a passer who is versatile in various phases with added tactical nous and a fair bit of defensive ability (under tutelage from Herrera at this time naturally).

I've posted this video a lot of times and said that he didn't morph into a Pirlo during his Inter phase a few times as well .



The point being that he is perfect here as a tactically intelligent player who can stay deep when needed and play a supporting role to Platini or make a forward incision and go on one of his mazy runs if Platini decides to drop deep (a key feature of Platini's game). It gives them both a wide berth to function in and gets the best out of them. Just think of an immense upgrade of Giresse who also can function as a CM. He is absolutely vital in this set-up. I knew I might face the two playmakers = Not complementary accusations etc. Heck I even got that for Suarez-Schuster in my sheep draft initially but the key was that they both had a fair mix of qualities that meant they could function together. Platini is more rigid than Schuster, most definitely, however it is the CM-AM version of Suárez here and not the Barca AM version or the Inter DLP version which would be a bad fit here. It isn't like I'am playing Bozsik (whom I very well could have got in reinforcements and he does get rated very highly, justifiably so) or say, Netzer here.

The Spain version who remained fairly central but still loved to burst forward when needed is perfect here. For instance, as stated in the OP, Suárez assisted 2 and played a major role in the other of the 3 goals that Spain scored in the semis and the final of the Euro 1964, which they won and he was widely regarded as the best player of the tournament.

My players are acting strangely at your defensive phase image, what's there behind my goal, an ice cream truck?

On a serious note, good luck, @Joga Bonito, may the best team win.

Nah, they are preparing themselves for the onslaught of Elkenigge . Good luck to you too mate.

I feel like you underestimated my right flank - this axis of Meazza - Schuster - Brehme is as good as any and I would argue that my attack is even more "multi-faceted" than yours, which is your first and only argument in "Why I'd win this" . Anyway, I'll wait until you're here to continue.

Dzajic not tracking back is a strange argument also, I only have Meazza that won't contribute much to defensive play, and both Platini and Suarez aren't exactly a ball-winners themselves.

Your right flank is most certainly not weak by any means but it is most certainly not as strong as your left flank. Meazza would be playing as an inside right and will predominantly look to cut in and would rarely go on the outside to provide conventional wingmanship. Schuster will have Suárez on him and Brehme is your only constant wing presence here.

Another key facet of my off-the ball game would include Elkenigge dropping into the flanks (as the diagram under defensive phase would illustrate) to pose a direct and rapid counter attacking threat whilst also functioning as an immediate out-ball. Naturally, with 2 forward oriented WBs in Brehme/Bezsonov and Facchetti, there will be space left behind on the flanks that could be capitalized on. I'm not stating that they are gung-ho and reckless WBs, they are clearly not and are quality players who know when to pick their moments but even then, they naturally had players covering for them. In this match-up though, Rijkaard will find it tough to leave Platini alone for a moment, Dzajic-Meazza won't offer much tracking back and he has two slow CBs who won't be at ease covering the flanks. This will inevitably create openings on the flanks off the ball, which can be seized upon on a quick transition/counter-attack. Not many are better suited to executing this stratagem, than the electric Elkenigge who are absolutely rapid whilst possessing an incisive threat from the channels/flanks.

As my tactical write up indicates, my forwards would drop into the wings immediately off the ball, to provide a direct out-ball (and they are absolutely deadly from out wide) which would naturally restrict Brehme's freedom a fair bit and more importantly, he is up against Maldini here.

I see no point whatsoever in Desailly's role.

He does have a fairly central attack (apart from Dzajic) with Sarosi who likes to drop deep and Meazza who would be operating in the fairly left-ish central areas who dropped deep once in a while too. Desailly would prove to be a nuisance in this area whilst also dropping back into defense when needed, to esp contain harms left flank.

Sarosi is your definition of a physical forward, he bullied his way upfront after starting his career as a central defender, where he won every header.

That isn't the view that I have of him, in fact it's quite the opposite. Could you provide some evidence to back this up?


Also would Voronin be able to handle Platini, of all people here?

 

[harms]

That isn't the view that I have of him, in fact it's quite the opposite. Could you provide some evidence to back this up?

- Sarosi is one of the most completed footballers of all-time. He was a full physical option, fast, agile and strong combined with his best skills are dribbling and scoring and also very good in his defensive ability and teamwork ability.

I believe that the fact, that he played in all those positions implicates the views on him. In his peak he played up-front, as a central striker, in the best years of his career (I already had this conversation with you in my last game against crappy). He is not a limited centre-forward, he is a total footballer that is used to lead the line.

About his physicality:

It was just so easy to him. He was big, really strong, quick, never lost a header. He was impossible to bully. Moreover, he played with such confidence – even at that age he played with the confidence of a captain. He would stride out of the defence with the ball, taking on opponents and launching attacks

a quote from his days as a centre-back

“Scoring seven goals in an international is almost impossible, yet alone past the great Planicka,” commented his coach that day, Karoly Dietz. “But ‘Gyurka’ was the greatest goalscorer of his era – just look at his statistics.”

Tellingly, between March 1934 and December 1938, when he was invariably if not exclusively positioned up front, Sarosi struck 37 times in 29 internationals – a staggering ratio for a man who also made European XIs as a centre-back and a midfielder.

One match he’d be at the back, and the next he’d be in midfield or up front – that was impressive enough in itself. But what was more impressive was that he was probably the best defender in the world, the best midfielder and the best striker.

The fact that he can play multiple positions doesn't equal the fact that he isn't fit enough to lead the line or that he is not physical - look at John Charles, for example.
The fact that he is usually deployed as a midfielder/inside forward for all of the Hungary best XI's doesn't mean anything either - they had many quality upfront that they included them where they can, despite his best position being a striker.

Here he is playing as a centre-forward in World Cup final

Spoiler

So:

• he played as a Centre Forward most of his peak
• he was incredibly physical and monstrous in the air
• most of his goals that are available on youtube are poacher's goals, like this one against your keeper here:

What more do you need? I feel strange because I wrote almost the exact same most in my game against crappy when I explained Sarosi's role to you in particular. Also, with Meazza and Dzajic here he can even drop back at times if he thinks that's better - even if this is obviously not the main strategy.



Re: Voronin vs Platini. You haven't read my write-up at all, have you?

Re: Right wing. Schuster has Suarez on him? And this is going to stop him how? Also, he provided constant wing threat in his games against Netherlands (more so) and Belgium (a little less so) in 1980.

 

[Fergus' son]

I prefer jogas players but think harms has formed the better team.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Another criticism that I have of harms team is that he has two extremely forward oriented wing-backs here. Facchetti and Brehme who loved getting forward but were always given the absolute tactical freedom to do (esp in Facchetti's case) with adequate players covering for them etc. Now they are clearly quality defensive players but they will leave gaps when they venture forward with Elkenigge taking these spaces. With Voronin having his hands full with Platini, I don't see how he can plug in these gaps effectively.

Also Dzajic was an extremely individualistic player who loved going on dribbles and was always the star player of the team. How would he fare with Facchetti, another player who loved to dominate the flank almost single-handedly, with many even calling him the playmaker from the back. I don't even need to bring up Beckenbauer's quote here. I just don't see that partnership working or jelling together. I think Brehme-Dzajic was brilliant in terms of cohesiveness and quality. Dzajic and Facchetti just seems like an overkill.

Re: Voronin vs Platini. You haven't read my write-up at all, have you?

I did but I don't get why Rijkaard would be up against Platini here as a CB when he has Elkenigge to deal with ?

 

[harms]

Another criticism that I have of harms team is that he has two extremely forward oriented wing-backs here. Facchetti and Brehme who loved getting forward but were always given the absolute tactical freedom to do (esp in Facchetti's case) with adequate players covering for them etc. Now they are clearly quality defensive players but they will leave gaps when they venture forward with Elkenigge taking these spaces. With Voronin having his hands full with Platini, I don't see how he can plug in these gaps effectively.

Also Dzajic was a fairly individual player who loved going on dribbles and was always the star player of the team. How would he fare with Facchetti, another player who loved to dominate the flank almost single-handedly, with many even calling him the playmaker from the back. I don't even need to bring up Beckenbauer's quote here. I just don't see that partnership working or jelling together. I think Brehme-Dzajic was brilliant in terms of cohesiveness and quality. Dzajic and Facchetti just seems like an overkill.



I did but I don't get why Rijkaard would be up against Platini here as a CB when he has Elkenigge to deal with ?

That's the thing about Facchetti and Brehme - they both are not Roberto Carlos, they are one of a kind (and I mean it, there are literally just a couple of names that I can name that match them in their completeness) fullbacks, brilliant both defensively and offensively. They know when to push forward and when to sit back and they will always look if their counterpart is back before making their run. And when they are back, they are as good as it gets defensively.

You only has 4 offensive players, literally. That's my problem with your team - your defensive players aren't known for their offensive contribution and even your midfielders in Pluskal and Desailly are purely defensive players. So, I have Facchetti, Ondrus, Brehme, Voronin, Rijkaard and sweeping Yashin (something that your keeper isn't able to do) against Elkenigge, Platini and Suarez? Yeah, I think that I can afford to have Rijkaard paying his attention mostly to Platini here.

Have you seen Dzajic's games? I'm not so sure anymore. You're describing Best and not Dzajic here, he constantly used his overlapping left-back and more central players for his and his team's benefit. The fact that he is one of the best dribblers that the game has ever seen, and he probably is, at least he is known is such, doesn't make him an egoist or a Garrincha's type of player.

If Facchetti will dominate this flank on his own, good for him, young Dzajic moved to the central and right positions regularly enough, it's only later, when his legs were gone, he stayed on the left. If not, I believe that he will appreciate Dzajic's help.

 

[harms]

The main difference between our teams, which confuses the hell out of you - mine is a team with a Total Football philosophy, everyone can cover for everyone and there are less individual battles in defence and more manipulations of space. And I believe that I have the best personnel for it, versatile, hardworking, athletic. All of your attacking 4 are fantastic football players, but what separates them from the others is their ability to manipulate space, not individual skill - don't get me wrong, I'm talking about the very highest levels, like the difference between Platini and Maradona and not downplaying their football ability. So it makes sense not to defend against individuals, but to defend as a unit, and my whole team, not only defensive players, is that unit. Compact, physical, tactically brilliant and coherent unit - with the defensive orchestrator of that unit keeping an eye on your best player.

 

[Joga Bonito]

hey know when to push forward and when to sit back and they will always look if their counterpart is back before making their run.

Yes, I know that but when they do, who is going to cover for them here? Not Rijkaard who is playing a bizarre CB-DM role alongside another extremely slow sweeper in Ondrus? Rijkaard played more as a conventional CB with Koeman being the more ball playing forward oriented player for Netherlands btw. You couldn't have a more unsuitable partner for Rijkaard in that role that you are describing, with Ondrus. Both of whom will have their hands full with Elkenigge anyway.

Yeah, I think that I can afford to have Rijkaard paying his attention mostly to Platini here.

Leaving the slow and ponderous Ondrus to Elkenigge, that wouldn't be a wise move at all.

That's my problem with your team - your defensive players aren't known for their offensive contribution and even your midfielders in Pluskal and Desailly are purely defensive players.

Yup, that is where you are missing Demyanenko and Maldini's contributions. Whether Voronin would be able to come to grips wih Platini or van Moer with Suarez is another matter altogether since it looks like you are playing Schuster in his right sided box-to-box role...

Have you seen Dzajic's games? I'm not so sure anymore. You're describing Best and not Dzajic here, he constantly used his overlapping left-back and more central players for his and his team's benefit.

That is not the player that I saw at all . He was individualistic on the ball and loved to go on solo runs, exhibiting his flair and dribbling prowess. That was the way he played for that underwhelming Yugoslavia team as he was their star player. He hardly played the way like you are describing here.

If Facchetti will dominate this flank on his own, good for him, young Dzajic moved to the central and right positions regularly enough, it's only later, when his legs were gone, he stayed on the left. If not, I believe that he will appreciate Dzajic's help.

He doesn't even need another individualistic influence in Dzajic there. It's hardly like you have a Czibor or a Boniek there but a great dribbling individual in Dzajic. You can't sell him as a match-winner and also as someone who would link with someone like Facchetti to a great extent like a Czibor or a Boniek would.

All of your attacking 4 are fantastic football players, but what separates them from the others is their ability to manipulate space, not individual skill - don't get me wrong, I'm talking about the very highest levels, like the difference between Platini and Maradona and not downplaying their football ability. So it makes sense not to defend against individuals, but to defend as a unit,

Oh come on. This is Elkenigge, Platini and Suarez that we are talking about here.

 

[Balu]

Is Elkenigge now a thing? Do we start giving draft pairings nicknames? That's kinda great .

 

[harms]

Slow and ponderous Ondrus stopped fast and agile Cruyff and co, I don't know what more can you want from him, really. The defence around him was a disaster, their right back regularly ran off to whenever he wanted to, his partners were dragged out of position by clever Netherland's movements, but somehow their attacks stopped at Ondrus again and again. And they weren't a defensive low-line team like Greece, they were quite an attacking team at that tournament and they left their defence without enough cover.

Rijkaard played with Koeman and Koeman was the main libero - yet, it was quite an unique pairing - and you should look at Rijkaard's movement at this tournament more if you thing that Ondrus that will sweep in the back is the worst (or even bad) partner for him. He didn't hesitate to move up if needed, if he knew that he was covered well enough, and in the final he played higher than Koeman, for example. They would be great fit together.


Re: Dzajic

What can I say about Dzajic? A forward of a highest calibre, he is one of those that you should personally man-mark out of the game. What's his main strength? His acceleration from the spot. He can do everything with a ball in tight space. And he isn't greedy, he likes to pass the ball, because of that I would say that he is better, more difficult to play against than George Best

 

[Joga Bonito]

Slow and ponderous Ondrus stopped fast and agile Cruyff and co,

Yeah it was well documented that Netherlands were shite that game and extremely disinterested for some reason. He had a good game, needless to say but using that example is deceptive to a certain extent and doesn't portray the full picture.

He can do everything with a ball in tight space. And he isn't greedy, he likes to pass the ball, because of that I would say that he is better, more difficult to play against than George Best

That goes against what I saw of him and he lost all credibility when he said it was more difficult to play against him than Best . On a more serious note, he had a great cross, needless to say but once he got on the ball, his intentions were clear - he wanted to get at the defenders be it 2 or 3. He was a fantastic dribbler who loved to utilize it fully and he had the perfect platform in his club and national teams, whereby he was the standout player with full freedom to do as he pleased. I for one can't see him functioning here with Facchetti as well as someone like Czibor, Boniek or an inside forward who vacated the flank to make diagonal runs, would.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Is Elkenigge now a thing? Do we start giving draft pairings nicknames? That's kinda great .

 

[harms]

That goes against what I saw of him and he lost all credibility when he said it was more difficult to play against him than Best . On a more serious note, he had a great cross, needless to say but once he got on the ball, his intentions were clear - he wanted to get at the defenders be it 2 or 3. He was a fantastic dribbler who loved to utilize it fully and he had the perfect platform in his club and national teams whereby he was the standout player with full freedom to do as he pleased. I for one can't see him functioning here with Facchetti as well as someone like Czibor, Boniek or an inside forward who vacated the flank to make diagonal runs, would.

Well, he played against both of them, so he is probably more credible than you and me both here

As someone who made a few compilations of him, I can say you, that it isn't the case, really. I also thought before I started making them that he was this individualistic winger with an emphasis on his dribbling runs, but he really is so much more than that. When you spend the whole game just watching after one player, predicting his moves when he is out of the camera, I have to say, it gets a totally different perspective on a player's performance.

 

[harms]

@Joga Bonito the more I argue, the more the gap grows - and no one even bothered to say why they were voting for you

I don't believe that I can make a comeback here, the game is too close and my star names are relatively unknown - look, we even have a discussions about their playing style, and I can't say that they are just fishing expedition from your side, those are a very reasonable questions you ask here.

If only I had Stevie Me to make an inspiring speech in the half time

 

[Joga Bonito]

Well, he played against both of them, so he is probably more credible than you and me both here

As someone who made a few compilations of him, I can say you, that it isn't the case, really. I also thought before I started making them that he was this individualistic winger with an emphasis on his dribbling runs, but he really is so much more than that. When you spend the whole game just watching after one player, predicting his moves when he is out of the camera, I have to say, it gets a totally different perspective on a player's performance.

Fair enough but I did watch full games of Dzajic but he never really came across as that player. Tbf, it could also have been due to him bearing the responsibility of carrying his team almost single-handedly which brought out the most individualism in him.

I wouldn't paint him as a selfish egoistical maniac, he clearly had a good pass and a cross on him - like I've stated before - but I just can't see him linking up with Facchetti optimally here like a Boniek/Czibor/inside forward would.

Anyway, we've both said our piece on that matter and I guess we will have to agree to disagree and let's leave it at that.

I don't believe that I can make a comeback here, the game is too close

Nah, it's still in the early stages and anything can happen.

If only I had Stevie Me to make an inspiring speech in the half time

 

[harms]

First vote in!

 

[antohan]

Re: Elkenigge + Platini exploiting the gaps. There won't be enough gaps to exploit. Voronin is an incredibly intelligent defensive midfielder, something Carrick-esque, but better physically, Ondrus closed all the gaps that the Clockwork Orange made by they impeccable movement in 1976, Rijkaard understood space like a few before and after him and Facchetti + Brehme are both tactically fantastic and physically up to the challenge. Not to mention that both Schuster and Van Moer regularly dropped to the defensive line to help their teams in 1980, like you all saw if you watched the games or my compilations.

Yashin also should be taken in consideration - he revolutionized the goalkeeper position, he was ridiculously fast and dominated the whole box like few did

You make a very good case for your men, not much bone-picking I can engage in with the arguments you put forward. I agree on all counts, it's just that it is Elkjaer, Rummenigge and Michel feckin' Platini, the undisputed Euro GOAT in my lifetime.

No Elkjaer crusade forthcoming, Rijkaard '88 and Brehme are indeed up to the task, but the problem is stopping all three jointly. I can't see it happening, they are too fecking good and complement each other beautifully.

 

[antohan]

Yes mate, it would work. In the sense that Suárez was a tactically intelligent player in the mould of a CM/AM for Spain '64 but he wasn't a Pirlo or heck even a Xavi type of a player who would hamper Platini here.

Sure, but he isn't the sort of midfielder you need there IMO. What made him excellent isn't required all that much and nowhere near as much as other qualities are needed in your midfield.

Granted, those are also needed on the basis I really dislike Desailly there, I understand the idea but don't think it works all that well.

Essentially, you should be playing Desailly in defence and a more beastly defensive midfielder to deal with Schuster and the occasions when Sarosi drops/Meazza drifts in.

You don't have the chance to make BOTH changes given squad/restriction so I understand how you are trying to work around it, but it impoverishes your side. It's not as good as the sum of individual parts, his midfield makes far more sense any way you look at it.

 

[antohan]

On the other hand, there is Platzer, with an astonishing record against my main striker, he conceded only 5 goals in 4 games against Sarosi, well done mate, surely he is looking for a clean-sheet here.

That harms!

 

[antohan]

Is Elkenigge now a thing? Do we start giving draft pairings nicknames? That's kinda great .

It's awesome, I loved the initiative. Of course, it could fall flat on its arse if it weren't so obviously something that would work.

Michel Elkenigge would be a wonderful regen.

 

[antohan]

On a more serious note, he had a great cross, needless to say but once he got on the ball, his intentions were clear - he wanted to get at the defenders be it 2 or 3. He was a fantastic dribbler who loved to utilize it fully and he had the perfect platform in his club and national teams, whereby he was the standout player with full freedom to do as he pleased. I for one can't see him functioning here with Facchetti as well as someone like Czibor, Boniek or an inside forward who vacated the flank to make diagonal runs, would.

Agreed. It's not that it won't work/function, just not as good as the sum of parts. A bit like your midfield.

 

[antohan]

 

[Joga Bonito]

Sure, but he isn't the sort of midfielder you need there IMO. What made him excellent isn't required all that much and nowhere near as much as other qualities are needed in your midfield.

Granted, those are also needed on the basis I really dislike Desailly there, I understand the idea but don't think it works all that well.

Essentially, you should be playing Desailly in defence and a more beastly defensive midfielder to deal with Schuster and the occasions when Sarosi drops/Meazza drifts in.

You don't have the chance to make BOTH changes given squad/restriction so I understand how you are trying to work around it, but it impoverishes your side. It's not as good as the sum of individual parts, his midfield makes far more sense any way you look at it.

Will respond to them in a while.