The Euro Draft - Round 1 - Theon vs harms

[Theon]

That's the thing - so you can just pick a great player from that era and say that he was as great as he was at his best until proven wrong?

You've got an issue with Vukas now? I'm not sure what you want me to do?

The only way to properly judge all of the older players would be to go back and watch the games. Or else just believe what you read and manage to find in clips of the player. As I wrote in the OP - Vukas was captain of the Yugoslavia side, along with Bobek and Dzajic is generally considered the best players from the whole of Yugoslavia and he was voted by the Croatian Football Federation as the best Croatian player of all time in 2000.

 

[Theon]

Also in relation to the above lack of footage for the older players, it works both ways and you've undoubtedly benefited from the games not being accessible - it lets you judge on stats which benefits you here. Kocsis was a wonderful, intelligent, complete forward but simply by googling his stats you can argue that he wasn't at his best and it's very hard for me to refute without the footage of the games.

Whereas Sarosi banging in seven goals against that Czech side have made his stats fantastic, and for me it would be better to actually see the games as the difference in performance level of Sarosi/Kocis probably wouldnt be that significant over their peak periods. That's my genuine opinion by the way, I'm not arguing with Sarosi's record (though it is inflated by that one match) but Kocsis was a terrific player and based on such a small sample size of 6/7 games at his peak I don't think that tells you much in the grand scheme of things.

So in my view the lack of footage helps you here.

 

[harms]

You've got an issue with Vukas now? I'm not sure what you want me to do?

The only way to properly judge all of the older players would be to go back and watch the games. Or else just believe what you read and manage to find in clips of the player. As I wrote in the OP - Vukas was captain of the Yugoslavia side, along with Bobek and Dzajic is generally considered the best players from the whole of Yugoslavia and he was voted by the Croatian Football Federation as the best Croatian player of all time in 2000.

Nah, it was more of a theoretical issue about this particular draft.

@Theon how about we call it a night? It's pointless to keep arguing while there are only two of us here, we are sitting in our castles and threw rocks at each other without doing anything positive at the moment. We need a third opinion here

 

[Annahnomoss]

I am not sure what people were on about earlier. Matthäus was fantastic in that '88 Euro, I had to watch him after the statements in here. It is in the middle of his peak too, not some sort of over/below his peak version either. Davids is in his typical box to box LCM role here which suits him well. He's not quite the offensive powerhouse that Matthäus was and that is why Gordillo is played on that side.

He is the same type of player that Brehme is for Harms, a wing-back/left midfielder who can provide all the width he needs on that flank to help.

Gordillo will bomb up the flank outside of Davids who will remain slightly deeper - Matthäus will have a more free role to go on his great dribbling runs and Stielike will move in to the space Matthäus leaves vacant. Only Bergomi is a better option than Burgnich against Dzajic.

Vukas and Riva providing fluidity and runs out wide with Kocsis staying more centrally. Pirlo showed at Milan that you can thrive as a deep lying playmaker without wingers if you have the bursting runs from midfield that Kaka provided, and forwards with good movement.

That said I really like Harms team too, Bezsonov and Khurtislava especially but Ondrus as well are excellent defenders even for a draft like this. The setup is also very smart with Brehme overlapping Djazic and Sarosi centrally. More or less all his main firepower coming from the same side, even Schuster is playing there.

I just can't accept that it is somehow a poor match up for Theon who has Matthäus, Burgnich, Stielike, Desailly and Bozsik in the area. Dzajic is one of my favorite wingers, he's clearly at the level where he'll be great whatever you put him up against and it is harms best route to goal.

Being so offensive there does mean there will be gaps in the very same area going forward. When Brehme is linking up with Dzajic for brilliant wing-play, Vukas/Riva will already be ready to counter-attack in to that space the second they win the ball back. An early ball win from Theon when Brehme is already pushing forward would lead to some terrific ball carrying from Matthäus down that space as well.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I do agree with harms point about the fact that it is up to every manager to prove how great their player was. It shouldn't be a case of giving all older players the benefit of the doubt. That said, there will be plenty of players we will have to judge based on written reports, interviews and very limited clips.

 

[Theon]

Van Moer is just a pain in the arse, he won't negate Bozsik, of course, but he will make it more difficult to him. The only real criticism that I read about Boszik was about his lack of mobility - something that makes you an easier target for a pressing tactic. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine more mobile player than young and electrical Schuster.

Bozsik will still be one of the best players on the pitch, he, alongside Schuster, is the best midfielder on the pitch, but he won't dominate the midfield like you say he would. Overall I think that our midfields are almost equal with your being more physical and mine being more mobile. But your side midfielders are also asked to look at the flanks, aren't they?

Fair enough man - I don't want to argue too much.

As I said before I think Bozsik is one of the last players in the draft to be bothered by midfield pressing. He was exceptional on the ball so I think he'll be fine.

Yep, Bozsik definitely did have a lack of mobility - I mentioned that in the OP - but that is why I paired him with Matthaus and Davids, who are exceptionally mobile. I really think Bozsik has a lovely situation here because he has perfect cover from Davids and Matthaus.

The best midfielders on the pitch IMO are Matthaus and Bozsik, then Davids and Schuster, then Van Moer.

I don't agree that the midfields are equal at all - sorry I just don't. That's my honest opinion.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I don't think Bozsik will be bogged by a pressing tactic. Not many DLPs are known for their pace. Pirlo, Alonso, Carrick etc. At the same time Matthaus, Davids is a monster midfield. Can't decide at the moment.

Let me read a bit about harms defensive line and Vukas dude.

 

[Theon]

I do agree with harms point about the fact that it is up to every manager to prove how great their player was. It shouldn't be a case of giving all older players the benefit of the doubt. That said, there will be plenty of players we will have to judge based on written reports, interviews and very limited clips.

Completely agree - Like I said above though it's very difficult because the footage simply isnt there.

With Kocsis for instance, I would have absolutely loved one of those 'player performance' videos where it just shows you all of their touches for the match. That way I could know how he played and use it to support his performance level.

Because the footage isn't there, it's a really weird situation where I know Kocsis was this incredible, offensive monster but because he only scored 4 goals in 6/7 games at his peak Euro and not one or two goals a game it's hard to argue that he was at his best. It's such a small sample size that anything could have happened, particularly for a complete forward like Kocsis he could have set up three goals in those games, or maybe he hit the post or the opposition keeper played a great match

So I've pretty much resigned myself to not arguing too much on Kocsis because without the footage it's a tough battle to go against.

 

[Theon]

@Theon how about we call it a night? It's pointless to keep arguing while there are only two of us here, we are sitting in our castles and threw rocks at each other without doing anything positive at the moment. We need a third opinion here

Aye, I'm happy to leave it till morning.

It's been an interesting discussion so far - Goodnight mate

 

[harms]

It's been an interesting discussion so far - Goodnight mate

Yeah, good night. Sorry for being over competitive, can't help myself

 

[harms]

I don't think Bozsik will be bogged by a pressing tactic. Not many DLPs are known for their pace. Pirlo, Alonso, Carrick etc. At the same time Matthaus, Davids is a monster midfield. Can't decide at the moment.

Pirlo/Park and Carrick/a lot of players and even Alonso/Welbeck were/are all prone to an active pressing. Okay, I'm going to sleep and we already agreed to postpone our discussion until tomorrow.

 

[NM]

Will contribute here later today. Sorry was offline most of the day.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I don't think Bozsik will be bogged by a pressing tactic. Not many DLPs are known for their pace. Pirlo, Alonso, Carrick etc. At the same time Matthaus, Davids is a monster midfield. Can't decide at the moment.

Let me read a bit about harms defensive line and Vukas dude.

I don't think so either. But a pressing tactic is always more difficult for more or less any midfield. The question is if the opponents has what it takes to overcome it. Obviously giving Bozsik a lot of space is going to assure that he has a brilliant game.

I do think that pressing Matthäus in particular is really dangerous as he's the type of player to beat his man and then just blast away in the hole created. In fact Matthäus would probably be my ideal choice in history to play against Barcelona in their peak. Defensively brilliant, and still has the ability to just beat his marker and create a chance like that.

Davids-Bozsik I can see having less influence facing a pressing setup, even if it of course isn't some kryptonite to any player per se.

 

[antohan]

I didn't want to embarrass him.

But yeah, I did forget that he already played there. Very weird. It also means, he played in four Euros then, not three . 80, 84, 88 and 2000.

Had completely forgotten 84, not that you showed up

 

[antohan]

Really? I actually thought you would have liked it

Desailly was always going to be a regular CB and I had the idea of using a sweeper defense when I started the game. Burgnich or Bergomi were the two players I had pinned for the defensive right sided slot, with someone offensive on the left - hopefully to upgrade into Facchetti at some point. I really liked the idea and once Stielike was unpicked in the middle rounds I didn't want to pass him up.

I actually do like it under the assumption Stielike is meant to be replaced by Beckenbauer eventually. That would be absolutely phenomenal And would beast a final once you upgrade Gordillo.

If you had Scirea there I would think he doesn't add that much given Bozsik is there, but at least he is a superb defender. Stielike is neither here nor there, not as great a defender, not as great a foraging libero as Beckenbauer, and pretty much at his best in front of the defence, protecting it and helping orchestrate from deep. That's why Boszik and him specifically had me in a quandary as to your plans.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I actually do like it under the assumption Stielike is meant to be replaced by Beckenbauer eventually. That would be absolutely phenomenal And would beast a final once you upgrade Gordillo.

I quite like it too. A catenaccio defense with a defensive RB, a libero, a CB and then a WB/LM in Gordillo.

 

[Joga Bonito]

That's the thing - so you can just pick a great player from that era and say that he was as great as he was at his best until proven wrong? I'm not sure that this is a right approach, considering that there are literally minutes of footage from that tournaments and proving an "underwelming performance" is an unreal job. We have a few that he can be sure about (Meazza, Sarosi, Puskas), but when you pick a player without an outstanding record, you should sell him, not being given a free ride.

Yeah fair enough. You can include Sindelar in that list as well

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

From what I read Vukas was a left Inside Forward type player who had his heyday in early 1950's. It is arguable that he was in his prime in CEIC games played in 1955-56 and her certainly was in the score list for the games against Italy and Hungary in that time frame. Though it's a bit of a stretch, it's certainly not too far out to believe his prime there. He certainly had the reputation in those years.

I kinda placed him to be a type wing forward, good at dribbling and scoring. It's his role here that does not convince me. Left of front 3 is close enough, but as a pure AM, I can't find any notes of.

I've voted for harms as of now, but may change if Theon digs any fresh sources on him.

 

[Theon]

I kinda placed him to be a type wing forward, good at dribbling and scoring. It's his role here that does not convince me. Left of front 3 is close enough, but as a pure AM, I can't find any notes of.

You're right that Vukas could play on the wing but that wasn't his best position and he could play right across the front line. He was best as a second striker, where he could roam across the pitch. As was quite common in those days, he was a total footballer and wasnt confined to one position - certainly not the left wing.

In all of the clips of him on youtube you can see him playing centrally. Here is his position in an all time Yugoslavia team which shows him central,

"Bernard Vukas is one of the all-time greatest footballers of Yugoslavia, great goalscorer, excellent technical player with very good stamina. He could score in every angle , or change his mind and assist player in better position. Although he was basically a forward, He could be found every position during the game to run away his marker, always trying to do what’s best for the team. In 1953 he played in Wembley for the "Rest of the World" team against England. In 1955 he was invited to play for the UEFA-team in Belfast against Great Britain. The game ended 4:1 with a hat trick by Bernard Vukas. In 2000 he was elected from famous Magazine's poll for the best Croatian football player of all times. Vukas got compliments with many great legends in the 1950s that he was one of the best attackers in the World at that era, and was regarded as the greatest European footballer in the 1954 - 1955 season."

"Vukas liked to drop deeper then most the center forwards of that time, and try to score/assist when nobody expects. You can even say that Cruyff had similar style of playing as Vukas or that Vukas was among first players who had similar style to "Total football". He could play at every attacking position, he had great understanding of the game, but Vukas wasn't a playmaker, he was a universal attacker, who knew how the game works, and how to position himself in every offensive action."

 

[harms]

Good game, @Theon, @NM. Sorry if my criticism was a little over the top - it certainly was with Matthäus, but your team looked ridiculously good on paper and with you hyping it even more I had to downplay it

 

[antohan]

Would have expected this to be closer on paper. It probably helped harms that, like me, others probably didn't have the time to assess his defence properly and chose not to vote as a result.

Weird that much of the discussion revolved around the midfields when what needed more analysis was the attacks vs. defences.

 

[crappycraperson]

Would have expected this to be closer on paper. It probably helped harms that, like me, others probably didn't have the time to assess his defence properly and chose not to vote as a result.

Weird that much of the discussion revolved around the midfields when what needed more analysis was the attacks vs. defences.

It was simply bad timing, hence why I never want my matches to occur on weekends. On a weekday with more people participating and voting, this would have been a cracking match up.

 

[antohan]

It was simply bad timing, hence why I never want my matches to occur on weekends. On a weekday with more people participating and voting, this would have been a cracking match up.

Yes, that's what I meant by "no time to assess them properly". During the week the alternative is working