Re: Sindelar @Joga Bonito I have a similar issue to the one you voiced re: Sarosi, except that I always had Sarosi as the more viable CF of the two (purely a bulk thing).
Care to elaborate?
Care to elaborate?
The Euro Draft - QF - Aldo vs Joga Bonito
- Thread starter Balu
- Start date
i think the best chance of a goal is a set piece for both sides or a major bit of misfortune..
Effenberg and Pluskal are a great pair indeed, and that's why I but Baros' role here, not as a goalscorer but as someone who keeps that defence pegged back, isolating the duo in a battle vs. a midfield quartet, a battle they can't win despite their best efforts.
You've pulled one over me with the exclusion of Albert which I would have never expected. So kudos on that. In saying that, I don't think this is your best formation though, for various reasons.
-If I'm playing a 3-4-1-2, then I could have seen your set-up excelling as my 2 CFs would play right into your hands with your centre back trio and your WBs could bomb forward all day long. However, I have a playmaking false 9 and 2 wing-forwards here, who aren't conducive to your set-up excelling and are actually perfectly set up to exploit the area between the flanks and the channels which is always a weakness in most back 3 set-ups.
-Lahm as stated in the OP is different kettle of fish on the left as opposed to on the right. In fact it was one of the prime reasons why I thought you'd never attempt 5 at the back with Lahm as the LWB. He simply doesn't have the attacking impetus to be the same threat on the left and in combination with Iniesta who occupied the left hand channels more often than not, it leaves your formation fairly lopsided with all your width primarily coming from your right flank - a flank which Maldini is patrolling with Nedved up against the athletic Desailly here.
-Nedved-Iniesta in those positions, leads to a even more centrally oriented set-up which my I'd back my compact central defensive triumvirate and my steely defensive midfield duo to stay compact and stifle them.
-Most importantly, there is a distinct lack of goal threat in your side. Nedved had a 1 in 5 goalscoring average throughout his career for both national and club team with 1 solitary goal in 12 Euro appearances. Iniesta had a 1 in 10 general record (0 goals in 12 Euro appearances) and hardly poses a goal threat. Throw in your midfield duo of Xavi-Monti and your goalscoring threat is almost non-existent with all the eggs in one basket - Baros shouldering all the burden against a concrete wall commandeered by one Bobby Moore. Even van basten without adequate support offensively might find it tough to break through my defense.
-Would love to be informed about Happel's Euro credentials here. All I know is that he was part of an Austrian team which finished 3rd in a 6 team CEIC.
-If I'm playing a 3-4-1-2, then I could have seen your set-up excelling as my 2 CFs would play right into your hands with your centre back trio and your WBs could bomb forward all day long. However, I have a playmaking false 9 and 2 wing-forwards here, who aren't conducive to your set-up excelling and are actually perfectly set up to exploit the area between the flanks and the channels which is always a weakness in most back 3 set-ups.
-Lahm as stated in the OP is different kettle of fish on the left as opposed to on the right. In fact it was one of the prime reasons why I thought you'd never attempt 5 at the back with Lahm as the LWB. He simply doesn't have the attacking impetus to be the same threat on the left and in combination with Iniesta who occupied the left hand channels more often than not, it leaves your formation fairly lopsided with all your width primarily coming from your right flank - a flank which Maldini is patrolling with Nedved up against the athletic Desailly here.
-Nedved-Iniesta in those positions, leads to a even more centrally oriented set-up which my I'd back my compact central defensive triumvirate and my steely defensive midfield duo to stay compact and stifle them.
-Most importantly, there is a distinct lack of goal threat in your side. Nedved had a 1 in 5 goalscoring average throughout his career for both national and club team with 1 solitary goal in 12 Euro appearances. Iniesta had a 1 in 10 general record (0 goals in 12 Euro appearances) and hardly poses a goal threat. Throw in your midfield duo of Xavi-Monti and your goalscoring threat is almost non-existent with all the eggs in one basket - Baros shouldering all the burden against a concrete wall commandeered by one Bobby Moore. Even van basten without adequate support offensively might find it tough to break through my defense.
-Would love to be informed about Happel's Euro credentials here. All I know is that he was part of an Austrian team which finished 3rd in a 6 team CEIC.
Yea but a lot of the manager's pre match has gone to waste here, specially given how crucial he thinks it was.
The area between the flanks and channels, which is where your forwards will work, is well marshalled with Bossis and Happel. Both of them spent their careers working in exactly those areas. Both are incredibly versatile defenders anyway, and will not have a big problem here.
Specially with Alessandro Nesta standing behind them.
Yea but a lot of the manager's pre match has gone to waste here, specially given how crucial he thinks it was.
Yeah, I noticed. @Joga Bonito 's love of oldies got the better of him there. Or maybe he set that up just to point at how much you missed Albert if you ultimately didn't play him?
Top marks for you two having clearly put in the work pre-game, I didn't anticipate either lineup. I can see what you were both attempting, but I think overall you came up trumps there. Still have subs as a possible game-changer though.
Your central defensive trio are left empty handed, and it is the midfield that is under pressure now. Effenberg and Pluskal is neat but they don't nearly boast the level of impact Iniesta and Nedved singlehandedly made, and now they are working together.
As I said, my midfield would dominate most midfields with them being outnumbered, here it is fairly certain that you are going to struggle in that area of the pitch.
I know I can't prove it, but the very reason I had to drop Albert was I knew he would be "man marked out of the game by The Rock Desailly". It was something that was just going to come with him there, so I had to shift the action areas of the game to a different part of the pitch, somewhere where I hold the stronger cards.Yeah, I noticed. @Joga Bonito 's love of oldies got the better of him there. Or maybe he set that up just to point at how much you missed Albert if you ultimately didn't play him?
Top marks for you two having clearly put in the work pre-game, I didn't anticipate either lineup. I can see what you were both attempting, but I think overall you came up trumps there. Still have subs as a possible game-changer though.
Hey, like I said, you got one over me on that one but I don't mind it at all. You simply do not have a goal-threat here. Nedved had a 1 in 5 goalscoring average throughout his career for both national and club team with 1 solitary goal in 12 Euro appearances. Iniesta had a 1 in 10 general record (0 goals in 12 Euro appearances) and hardly poses a goal threat. Throw in your midfield duo of Xavi-Monti and your goalscoring threat is almost non-existent with all the eggs in one basket - Baros shouldering all the burden against a concrete wall commandeered by one Bobby Moore. Even van basten without adequate support offensively might find it tough to break through my defense.
Simply put, you are not going to score here with only Baros as your sole goal threat against the likes of Moore, Desailly and Bergomi. Nice tactical manoeuvre but I don't see how you've helped yourself with that change.
He simply doesn't as opposed to say Rummenigge, Sindelar and Elkjaer who are much much more threatening than his entire attack and midfield combined. He has put all his eggs in one basket and it is only going to backfire here, he doesn't even have a goalscoring midfielder and just one solitary striker who had a good Euros but is simply up against better defenders here.
On the second point, we will be playing slightly deep-ish as he will have the edge in possession. With the long passing capablitlies of Moore and Effenberg in particular, we can get the ball to my forwards efficiently. Keep in mind that Monti will also be frequently dropping deep and getting on the ball to spray it around.
Yes, I actually don't mind this opposition at all with you playing a team with zero threat on the left flank, everything coming centrally against a jam-packed central core of mine and with just one player shouldering your scoring burden - Baros...
He simply has the most burden on the pitch. If he doesn't deliver, and he is up against Bergomi-Moore-Desailly here, your team is simply not going to pose a threat. You've just transferred the most important tactical component title from Albert to Baros of all people, and I don't mind that at all.
He did play as a RWB. His team's sole wing-threat is Kaltz (with Nedved playing centrally now and he has to provide the sole central thrust, dynamism, ball carrying which is necessary in the middle with the absence of Albert) who is up against Maldini here. Take into account that Elkjaer-Rummenigge-Sindelar as opposed to Baros is much much more threatening on a whole different plane. Watch the videos in the OP and you'll see how deadly they were and how they could rip anyone a new one on a quick transition/counter with the likes of Moore, Effenberg and Sindelar providing the ammunition.
Are you referring to Sindelar?
He played as a withdrawn forward with Bican frequently making runs forward bursting his gut to get forward. You can bank both the indefatigable Rummenigge and the electric Elkjaer to do just that. Also keep in mind that he scored 7 goals in 11 CEIC games and has 26 goals in 43 caps in general.He simply does not and there is no way he is scoring here. Like I've stated in the OP even a MvB without adequate support could struggle to break down my defense.
He most certainly would but with Iniesta playing fairly centrally now, he'd most likely be in Bergomi's zones more often than not and there is no one better for this job. Anyway I'll post Demyanenko's individual highlights (gifs) from both the semi-finals and final in a while in the main thread. I'd expect him to pin down Lahm (he is an inferior FB to Lahm but a significantly, and I mean this, better wing-back than a LWB Lahm) and remove a crucial width outlet for Aldo. Keep in mind that Kaltz is up against Maldini as well.
I agree, I don't see Lahm providing much crossing from there, but
1. I don't rely on crossing, my style of play in this match is much the contrary, I don't have a Van Basten who would benefit truly with aerial threat.
2. To compensate, I have one of the greatest crossers in fullback history, in a role he will enjoy. He will pump in enough dangerous balls in the game anyway.
3. We are going strictly in Euro form, and even if Lahm won't cross the ball, he will provide a telling presence in that role. We all remember his unforgettable goal against Turkey, so it's obvious he will attack a lot. He fits perfectly with the likes of Iniesta and Xavi on that side, and will join the passing game. More importantly, he will still stretch the defense and create space, as Balu perfectly put it he would provide a disciplined wide presence, precisely what I need.
Can you please enlighten me on his Euro credentials? I had him for a sweeper and I don't see how he is complementary in that back 3 esp against the electric Elkenigge.
how much you missed Albert if you ultimately didn't play him?
I can't believe he has dropped his most tactically important player here. It was a daring move so kudos to him for that but I simply can't see it working here.
Pluskal was unbeaten in the CEICs and arguably the best DM of his era. Effenberg was the proverbial one man midfield for Germany in the 1992 Euro version. Your centrally oriented style is fairly predictable and it just plays into my steely central midfield duo and my central defensive back line. I can't see you stretching my team or threatening the goal with Baros alone.
Tactical change - Desailly, equally adept as playing as a DM/CB, man-marks Nedved. They will be in the same zones more often than not but hey, people seem to be thinking my back trio are going to be hugging the pen box doing nothing, so might as well. @Balu
You may not mind it, but your players are not prepared for it. You are expecting Iniesta and Nedved to play more wide than central and here they are, running rings in the central areas. You were going to man mark a player who is not there - new instructions needed - time spent in re-organization - my team smells a small opening and punishes it. Of course that is all too convenient for me but you get the point. You were expecting a 4-4-2, in which you central midfield wouldn't have been as exposed as it is now.
And, Baros is still the top scorer of a tournament he lit up with his firepower up front.
The question here is simple : Will Baros, who scored 5 goals in 5 games in 2004, with the midfield behind him controlling the game, with Iniesta and Nedved behind him running at players, dribbling or passing they way behind them, get enough chances to put one in the net?
Or will your trio, whose creative heartbeat has been well taken care of, who are facing a defensive unit that drilled for exactly what they are facing the whole time before the game, who will see a lot less of the ball and are playing against a defense that is well guarded against counters, will have any impact on the game?
This is suicidal, you will never gain anything by marking a player like Pavel Nedved. Now Desailly is just going to follow him all around the pitch - everywhere. Because Nedved is simply going to be everywhere, precisely as he was for his NT in the Euros. Will Desailly also track him when he drops into midfield, allowing Iniesta to go solo? Will he track him when he goes out wide? Will he track him when he swaps flanks with Iniesta and mirrors the whole game?
Seriously, why would you waste a defender in just following a multi dimensional versatile attacking midfielder who will never stay at one position?
It just opens way more space for me to operate there.
Yes, Lahm cutting in/playing short passes to an already congested central area is something I wouldn't mind. Your left side is unbalanced with just about no wingsmanship and all your wing threat is coming from Kaltz - a great crosser but one that is up against Maldini of all people. I just don't see how you are going to stretch my team and pull my defense out of their positions, thereby increasing your chances of breaking through. As it stands, all your threat comes from centrally, with all your eggs in one basket - Baros, against a cracking central core consisting of steely midfield duo of Effenberg-Pluskal and a rock solid back trio in Bergomi-Moore-Desailly. I honestly for the life of me can't see you breaking through here whilst on the other hand, on the transition/counter I see a much more credible threat coming from the Sindelar-Elkenigge combo.
That's what I meant earlier re: room for subs. You can't really post a teamsheet with Desailly as DM as he was always CB, but you defo can change his instructions from man-marking Albert to Nedved, which effectively takes him into midfield and leaves Moore-Bergomi on Baros.
Eh because he is playing Albert's role here?
Why on earth would he be dropping back even further into midfield? He will most probably be dropping into the channels and the wings etc but not that deep with Xavi already there. Even if he goes wide, I still have Bergomi to deal with Iniesta and Moore with Baros so I don't see a problem here.
It would be better to have Desailly at DM just participating in the midfield battle and not with a personal detail, but he can't do that, can he? There's absolutely no point leaving three at the back on Baros.
This is exactly what I hoped with this tactical curveball!
First Maldini was assigned to track Nedved, now he sees Nedved is inflicting damage through the middle, he has to assign Desailly to man mark him, and Maldini now has to stop Kaltz from whipping in crosses. Desailly is now going to leave his defensive position to follow Nedved everywhere, opening gaps for the in form on fire Baros to pin him back, and Xavi and Iniesta feast on the created space.
Chaos, is a ladder!
First Maldini was assigned to track Nedved, now he sees Nedved is inflicting damage through the middle, he has to assign Desailly to man mark him, and Maldini now has to stop Kaltz from whipping in crosses. Desailly is now going to leave his defensive position to follow Nedved everywhere, opening gaps for the in form on fire Baros to pin him back, and Xavi and Iniesta feast on the created space.
Chaos, is a ladder!
Nope. Albert was a second striker in a 4-4-1-1, Nedved is a attacking midfielder in a 3-4-2-1. And, once you watch Nedved in both his best Euros that is 96 and 04, you will see his role is really not anything like Albert. I never instructed Albert to join midfield or take part in the creative engine room, whereas Nedved is absolutely in the thick of it.
This is what I wrote on Baros on the Caf way back in July 2004:
The beauty of your approach though is how effective even a half-fit lumbering Fernando Torres was in that line-leading, play-stretching role for the Spanish and Baros has the qualities to fulfill the same function.
Which Desailly is this? The one that won the Euro in 2000? He is really wasted as a man marker, let alone on Nedved, who is possibly impossible to successfully man mark.
I know that. However, without Albert here, he simply has to take over that role and can't play his normal role. With Albert (still can't believe you've dropped him) there I can see him playing his normal role 'being in the thick of it' and dropping deep all over the place. However, without Albert who is going to provide the central thrust, the direct pacy ball-carrying ability and the ability to bridge attack and midfield? Simply put you can't have Nedved compensating for Albert's role and ALSO have him play his normal role.
@Aldo of course your going to win the midfield battle in means of keeping possession but that isn't the battle you need to win.. Its breaking down that defence.. Yes you have fantastic passers of the ball and very creative players but you only have one goalscorer you can usually depend on.. Iniesta and xavi have always had good world class forwards in front of him Torres, Villa, Messi, Neymar, Suarez etc.. Baros needs to be even that quality or more.
I definitely agree, his all round play is not at the level of Van Basten etc but he's doing very much what he did in 2004, provide the finishing blows to a fluid attack with his pace and directness. He still scored 5 goals and he was a key member of that attack. I don't want him to be portrayed as if he doesn't exist.
I tend to disagree, but we'd better discuss it in my game
I know that it was an honest mistakeI tend to disagree, but we'd better discuss it in my game
Got jumbled up with all the multi-quoting.But that is oversimplifying it.
Winning the midfield battle gives you a lot more than just having more possession. I will have more possession, but that is not my aim. My aim is exactly what you said, it is to break down the defense. And how else do you break it down by having few of the most creative and flair players to play this competition, who made impact without the support of each other. They are exactly there to break the defense down. How many times was Iniesta surrounded by 3,4,5 players in 2012 to stop him? He was practically impossible to take the ball from and he run at players from all areas in the final third, opening spaces. That's how it will be broken down.
Nedved, who is even more dynamic, runs at players with pace and intent, great dribbler and most of all, both him and Iniesta turned games around at the Euros singlehandedly.
No, it was about Baros.Are you referring to Sindelar?
That is not the role I gave Albert, you have just made it up yourself. You are assuming Albert was linking up midfield and attack in the last game. He would have done that if I had two DMs behind him, not when I have a midfield of Cocu, Xavi, Iniesta and Nedved! In fact I clearly mentioned that he will not be involved in creative duties, he will stay in the final third.
It was pretty obvious you don't need a second striker to drop back to take the ball with that midfield.
So what you've done is replace Albert who linked midfield and attack brilliantly (not only by dropping deep before you misunderstand me) with a more ubiquitous Nedved who will be dropping deep, 'getting in the thick of things', swapping roles with Iniesta and basically fannying about in midfield whilst leaving Baros even more isolated? Hey you can fanny about all you like in midfield but you are not getting through that defense with just an isolated Baros
and that's before accounting for Pluksal-Effenberg who will be dirsupting your midfield and Desailly who will be on Nedved.Rare footage of Nedved in 2004This is exactly what I hoped with this tactical curveball!
First Maldini was assigned to track Nedved, now he sees Nedved is inflicting damage through the middle, he has to assign Desailly to man mark him, and Maldini now has to stop Kaltz from whipping in crosses. Desailly is now going to leave his defensive position to follow Nedved everywhere, opening gaps for the in form on fire Baros to pin him back, and Xavi and Iniesta feast on the created space.
Chaos, is a ladder!
Also you still haven't answered my question on Happel's Euro credentials? How would he fare against Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, the star of the 1980 Euros? Is he even the right type of defender to deal with Kalle here? I would think not. That right there, is the biggest mismatch on the entire pitch and the easiest route to goal.
@Aldo
@Aldo
That's pretty much teh plan, I don't intend to attack the same way for 90 minutes. And that is what you need to break down a strong defense. I won't you settle, while you are still recovering from the chaos at the start. I have two incredibly versatile and complete attacking midfielders, why would I waste them with limited roles? Check the two different images I posted in the OP, that is just two different ways I can line up as. It is obvious if you have Iniesta taking on your defenders and isolating them and looking for a pass, Nedved would automatically drop deeper (not as deep as Xavi, there's a lot of space betweenSo what you've done is replace Albert who linked midfield and attack brilliantly (not only by dropping deep before you misunderstand me) with a more ubiquitous Nedved who will be dropping deep, 'getting in the thick of things', swapping roles with Iniesta and basically fannying about in midfield whilst leaving Baros even more isolated? Hey you can fanny about all you like in midfield but you are not getting through that defense with just an isolated Baros
) and that will drag your man marker out, which is really stupid. Why should Desailly follow Nedved to midfield and leave an opening with Iniesta on the ball, Baros constantly making runs behind your CBs and Lahm overlapping in support? Desailly would never do that, not in a million years. His first instinct will to close down the pass to Baros. He was a physical beast, but he was not a Gentile that you waste him on a man marking role. He was a tremendous reader of the game and it was infact his understanding and anticipation of how strikers think that made him a great CB. A CB, the role he played in his Euro peak, not a man marker. I mean seriously, no one in his right mind would use Marcel Desailly as a man marker.
I don't really have his footage from CEIC, but from other games. However I don't know where you got that he was a sweeper? He was quality on the ball and that's about the extent where the comparison to a sweeper goes. He was strong as nails, and played as a lateral defender for a large part of his career. He's a perfect fit tactically, is all I can say.
If you think Kalle would beat him, the rare time he sees the ball, there's Nesta waiting.
I'll be back in some time. This is a really nice contest, and there's a lot to discuss.
Just one thing, yes this is a performance based draft but being pedantic about some performances will take the fun out of it. I am not claiming Happel to shut down Kalle, but he is a quality defender and he is tasked with the job to deal with him. And he has another man between himself and the keeper.
Because if we are getting pedantic, Moore was at fault for Dzajic's goal in 68, wasn't he? And that is the one and only game that counts that he played.
"When a long ball came in from the left, he stole behind the admirable Bobby Moore, chested it down and hammered it high past Gordon Banks in the England goal."
Because if we are getting pedantic, Moore was at fault for Dzajic's goal in 68, wasn't he? And that is the one and only game that counts that he played.
"When a long ball came in from the left, he stole behind the admirable Bobby Moore, chested it down and hammered it high past Gordon Banks in the England goal."
He was a physical beast, but he was not a Gentile that you waste him on a man marking role. He was a tremendous reader of the game and it was infact his understanding and anticipation of how strikers think that made him a great CB. A CB, the role he played in his Euro peak, not a man marker. I mean seriously, no one in his right mind would use Marcel Desailly as a man marker.
Now I've heard it all, I'm sorry but that couldn't be further from the truth. Desailly was an immense man-marker.
That's pretty much teh plan, I don't intend to attack the same way for 90 minutes. And that is what you need to break down a strong defense. I won't you settle, while you are still recovering from the chaos at the start. I have two incredibly versatile and complete attacking midfielders, why would I waste them with limited roles? Check the two different images I posted in the OP, that is just two different ways I can line up as. It is obvious if you have Iniesta taking on your defenders and isolating them and looking for a pass, Nedved would automatically drop deeper (not as deep as Xavi, there's a lot of space between
Like I've stated earlier, Nedved can drop deep, fanny about and do what he likes. Without proper width (Kaltz is against Maldini and Lahm is playing on the wrong flank to provide width as a wing-back) my midfield and defense can stay compact and shut down your midfield attack. You aren't going to stretch them purely through the middle, it isn't exactly Pepe and Ramos here. I mean it's a defense consisting of Moore-Bergomi-Desailly and a midfield of Effenberg-Pluskal up against a talented but extremely centrally oriented attack. I would back them to deal with it and hit you on a quick transition/counter with Elkenigge-Sindelar. Now that's a proper route to goal, none of the fannying about in front of a jam packed and rock solid central unit with just about zero goalscoring threat bar Baros who is shackle by a top notch defense. If only you had a proper goal threat in midfield. You've simply put all your eggs in the wrong basket and it is being squashed by one Bobby Moore and Bergomi right now.