The Euro Draft - Final - Joga Bonito vs Team EAP

Judged on the Euro performances, who will win the match?

  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .
harms said:
And this 3 vs 15 is a cheap dig, directed at voters that are just glancing at the write-ups, I don't like that.
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Aye, that was disingenuous. For what its worth, if I've calculated correctly EAP's three attackers scored a combined 21 goals in 33 total appearances in the CEIC/Euros, compared with 12 in 18 for Elkjaer, Rummenigge and Platini so the ratios are virtually identical.

Joga's argument about width is by some distance the most compelling point that's been made so far, so I'm going with him for now.
 
Joga Bonito said:
I really don't get why you are constantly ignoring Platini's goalscoring record here.
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Because he is between Deschamps and Matthaus? With Gullit's usual playing style of dropping into midfield, I don't see Matthaus going all out attack here. He'll stay compact, play short passes forward to Gullit and be in Platini's case denying him time and space all game. Even if Platini links with Suarez and get a through ball, they have Deschamps shielding the defence. Assuming you get past all that, you face Nesta/Blanc. He will give some through passes to your forwards but the chances of him getting on the scoresheet himself and more than once a la Euro is very small, I should think.
 
Going for Joga. His line-up is more balanced and has goals in it. I think EAPs will be to narrow to create enough against Joga'a defense
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Because he is between Deschamps and Matthaus? With Gullit's usual playing style of dropping into midfield, I don't see Matthaus going all out attack here. He'll stay compact, play short passes forward to Gullit and be in Platini's case denying him time and space all game. Even if Platini links with Suarez and get a through ball, they have Deschamps shielding the defence. Assuming you get past all that, you face Nesta/Blanc. He will give some through passes to your forwards but the chances of him getting on the scoresheet himself and more than once a la Euro is very small, I should think.
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I'd say that it is an imposing midfield myself and I love the balance of it (it's more of your FBs/tactical coherence of your forward line that I have an issue with). In fact, I don't even think I've ever said a bad word about it throughout the game as it has Deschamps as the water-carrier, Matthäus as the defensive box to box and Masopust as the slaloming attacking b2b. It really is spot on both individually and tactically but in saying that, Platini and Suárez in their peak one-man Euro winning form is just too hot to handle. Esp, since they have the perfect platform both defensively, with Pluskal-Desailly and offensively, with a pair of ubiquitous juggernauts in Elkenigge ahead of them, all in addition to Brehme-Maldini (in tandem with Elkenigge) providing support from the flanks.

Likewise you have a rock solid defense and midfield but I'd honestly say that the chances of my coherent attack breaching your defense, is higher than your individually brilliant yet imbalanced (overly centrally oriented) attack breaching mine. That could very well prove to be the difference in what is a very tight encounter imo.
 
Joga Bonito said:
Come on, it's nowhere near over. We aren't even half way through the game and anything can happen.
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Nah, this is gone. Tbh, I made a lot of mistakes in drafting. I never sold Masopust properly and it was just Puskas/Gullit who carried me this far. Despite making it to the finals, this was one of my least favourite teams I've ever drafted.

I need to return to my basics. Build teams that make me go...

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Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Nah, this is gone. Tbh, I made a lot of mistakes in drafting. I never sold Masopust properly and it was just Puskas/Gullit who carried me this far. Despite making it to the finals, this was one of my least favourite teams I've ever drafted.

I need to return to my basics. Build teams that make me go...

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And ignored the advice of your assistant wherever possible.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Nah, this is gone. Tbh, I made a lot of mistakes in drafting. I never sold Masopust properly and it was just Puskas/Gullit who carried me this far. Despite making it to the finals, this was one of my least favourite teams I've ever drafted.

I need to return to my basics. Build teams that make me go...

tumblr_lx9jb1SPMr1qdrpdr.gif
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Tbh, the scoreline is ridiculously harsh. I would say you had two choices to more or less to 'tactically complete' your team as you already had some terrific individuals in it. A great midfield and a great but unbalanced attack. If say, you had replaced Puskas with Dzajic (a cracking replacement tactically but one that would be extremely hard to do as a manager) it would have instantly made your team formidable imo. You will then have a cracking attack with clearly well defined roles. Dzajic as the LW who provides wingsmanship and quality service for MvB-Gullit (they will feast on the incoming crosses) and he will also create a wide berth of space for MvB to work in, allowing Gullit to play his natural inside right role, off MvB - whereby Gullit has a choice to go on the right flanks whenever he deems necessary, instead of being predominantly required to do it to create space for MvB-Puskas. Also the left side of Dzajic-Breitner-Masopust would have been perfect in so many ways. Campbell might not be ideal in dealing with Elkenigge but I feel Dzajic would have added much more to your team on the whole as opposed to Nesta, who is still a great pick individually.

Also the poor depth of quality at RB (there was hardly a Cafu/Carlos Alberto) in this draft did you no favours. Tbh, there does seem to be a discrepancy when it comes to attacking LWBs and RWBs in general, I feel. You are more likely to find a top-notch tucked in defensive RCB/RB (Thuram/Bergomi/Burgnich/Vogts etc) than you are likely to find a RWB primarily known for their attacking impetus (Carlos Alberto/Cafu etc). I'm ignoring the likes of Kaltz/Gerets as I'm talking about the absolute top end only. When thinking of a tucked in LCB/LBs, only Maldini and Schnellinger come to mind and even then, they were capable of good wingsmanship as opposed to their contemporaries at RCB. This is in stark contrast to the abundance of LWBs whereby you have Nilton Santos, Facchetti, Brehme, Krol, Carbrini, Junior, Breitner, R.Carlos, Lizarazu etc. Tbf, there are the likes of D.Santos and Zanetti who are balanced and can carry out attacking duties to a certain extent but not to the extent of their LWB peers. Perhaps I'm missing some blatant examples of LCB/LBs and RWBs here.

MJJ said:
And ignored the advice of your assistant wherever possible.
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What was your idea for the final reinforcement?
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Nah, this is gone. Tbh, I made a lot of mistakes in drafting. I never sold Masopust properly and it was just Puskas/Gullit who carried me this far. Despite making it to the finals, this was one of my least favourite teams I've ever drafted.

I need to return to my basics. Build teams that make me go...

tumblr_lx9jb1SPMr1qdrpdr.gif
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Oh god, not that raving lunacy again. Remember how that finished?

Told you from the outset Breitner was the wrong fullback for your team. You also really should have gone for Burgnich. Not sure what's going on here with Blanc on the left again, you know he played rightback in his early years, right? :rolleyes: Ultimately, you drafted too many defenders pointlessly without there being a massive difference between them bar Blanc. That really hadicapped your ability to improve as you went along.

Really disappointed Yashin couldn't make an appearance :(

I'll have a stab at Team of the Tourno at some point, too sleepy right now.
 
Joga Bonito said:
Tbh, the scoreline is ridiculously harsh. I would say you had two choices to more or less to 'tactically complete' your team as you already had some terrific individuals in it. A great midfield and a great but unbalanced attack. If say, you had replaced Puskas with Dzajic (a cracking replacement tactically but one that would be extremely hard to do as a manager) it would have instantly made your team formidable imo. You will then have a cracking attack with clearly well defined roles. Dzajic as the LW who provides wingsmanship and quality service for MvB-Gullit (they will feast on the incoming crosses) and he will also create a wide berth of space for MvB to work in, allowing Gullit to play his natural inside right role, off MvB - whereby Gullit has a choice to go on the right flanks whenever he deems necessary, instead of being predominantly required to do it to create space for MvB-Puskas. Also the left side of Dzajic-Breitner-Masopust would have been perfect in so many ways. Campbell might not be ideal in dealing with Elkenigge but I feel Dzajic would have added much more to your team on the whole as opposed to Nesta, who is still a great pick individually.

Also the poor depth of quality at RB (there was hardly a Cafu/Carlos Alberto) in this draft did you no favours. Tbh, there does seem to be a discrepancy when it comes to attacking LWBs and RWBs in general, I feel. You are more likely to find a top-notch tucked in defensive RCB/RB (Thuram/Bergomi/Burgnich/Vogts etc) than you are likely to find a RWB primarily known for their attacking impetus (Carlos Alberto/Cafu etc). I'm ignoring the likes of Kaltz/Gerets as I'm talking about the absolute top end only. When thinking of a tucked in LCB/LBs, only Maldini and Schnellinger come to mind and even then, they were capable of good wingsmanship as opposed to their contemporaries at RCB. This is in stark contrast to the abundance of LWBs whereby you have Nilton Santos, Facchetti, Brehme, Krol, Carbrini, Junior, Breitner, R.Carlos, Lizarazu etc. Tbf, there are the likes of D.Santos and Zanetti who are balanced and can carry out attacking duties to a certain extent but not to the extent of their LWB peers. Perhaps I'm missing some blatant examples of LCB/LBs and RWBs here.



What was your idea for the final reinforcement?
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Schuster, I also advised against hierro, kluivert, van basten and matthaus(wanted iniesta) although the draft was lost when you defeated harms. Our only hope of going through was a loss for you.
 
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MJJ said:
Schuster, although the draft was lost when you defeated harms. Our only hope of going through was a loss for you.
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Nah, I wouldn't say so myself. harms had created a fantastic team but it was one with too many underrated gems and relatively unknown players. It all changed once he got Facchetti-Rijkaard though - gave him the massive boost in star appeal that his team really needed.

He had a tremendous back-line and a great attack where every one of his forward was THE star of their Euros and in general were great players. His midfield, apart from Schuster, with Voronin-van Moer didn't look that great, in line with the rest of his team. I think he would have been well-set for the final (against either of us) if he just got a top-notch CB (a back line with Rijkaard in a similar role to Desailly in this game) or a CM to complete his team and he had drafted really well, with the nationalities and pre 68 players restrictions in mind, which naturally gave him plenty of options. Thought he was a shoo in for the final from the outset alongside Raees/Gio's team imo.



Something like this where Rijkaard plays a DM-CB role which gives Facchetti and Brehme, the full freedom to bomb forward.

Sarosi drops back a bit into an AM-CF role for two reasons. One, he can influence the midfield battle and it makes more use of his multi-faceted game. Secondly and more importantly, Dzajic doesn't seem to be in the way of Facchetti as a LW but seems to complement him more as a LWF who can drop into the flanks when needed and cut inside, as per Facchetti's movements. Also it gives Rijkaard more liberty with his DM-CB movement with Sarosi dropping back into midfield when needed.

Not sure if I can use Voronin as a CM as opposed to DM but he did seem impressive for the Soviets in the 1964 final and is a creative defensive b2b midfielder who should be at ease in that role. That does look like an imposing team with the right amount of firepower, defensive solidity, a good midfield and some insane width.

How were you planning on approaching the final reinforcement @harms ?
 
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Joga Bonito said:
Nah, I wouldn't say so myself. harms had created a fantastic team but it was one with too many underrated gems and relatively unknown players. It all changed once he got Facchetti-Rijkaard though - gave him the massive boost in star appeal that his team really needed.

He had a tremendous back-line and a great attack where every one of his forward was THE star of their Euros and in general were great players. His midfield, apart from Schuster, with Voronin-van Moer didn't look that great, in line with the rest of his team. I think he would have been well-set for the final (against either of us) if he just got a top-notch CB (a back line with Rijkaard in a similar role to Desailly in this game) or a CM to complete his team and he had drafted really well, with the nationalities and pre 68 players restrictions in mind, which naturally gave him plenty of options. Thought he was a shoo in for the final from the outset alongside Raees/Gio's team imo.



Something like this where Rijkaard plays a DM-CB role which gives Facchetti and Brehme, the full freedom to bomb forward.

Sarosi drops back a bit into an AM-CF role for two reasons. One, he can influence the midfield battle and it makes use of his multi-faceted game more. Secondly and more importantly, Dzajic doesn't seem to be in the way of Facchetti as a LW but seems to complement him more as a LWF who can drop into the flanks when needed and cut inside, as per Facchetti's movements. Also it gives Rijkaard more liberty with his DM-CB movement.

Not sure if I can use Voronin as a CM as opposed to DM but he did seem impressive for the Soviets in the 1964 final and is a creative defensive b2b midfielder who should be at ease in that role. That does look like an imposing team with the right amount of firepower, defensive solidity, a good midfield and some insane width.

How were you planning on approaching the final reinforcement @harms ?
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I meant in terms of reinforcements not as a slight to his side, from your team we could have taken desailly or bergomi which would have strengthened us a lot more.
 
MJJ said:
I meant in terms of reinforcements not as a slight to his side, from your team we could have taken desailly or bergomi which would have strengthened us a lot more.
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Oh fair enough, misunderstood you.
 
Joga Bonito said:
Nah, I wouldn't say so myself. harms had created a fantastic team but it was one with too many underrated gems and relatively unknown players. It all changed once he got Facchetti-Rijkaard though - gave him the massive boost in star appeal that his team really needed.

He had a tremendous back-line and a great attack where every one of his forward was THE star of their Euros and in general were great players. His midfield, apart from Schuster, with Voronin-van Moer didn't look that great, in line with the rest of his team. I think he would have been well-set for the final (against either of us) if he just got a top-notch CB (a back line with Rijkaard in a similar role to Desailly in this game) or a CM to complete his team and he had drafted really well, with the nationalities and pre 68 players restrictions in mind, which naturally gave him plenty of options. Thought he was a shoo in for the final from the outset alongside Raees/Gio's team imo.



Something like this where Rijkaard plays a DM-CB role which gives Facchetti and Brehme, the full freedom to bomb forward.

Sarosi drops back a bit into an AM-CF role for two reasons. One, he can influence the midfield battle and it makes use of his multi-faceted game more. Secondly and more importantly, Dzajic doesn't seem to be in the way of Facchetti as a LW but seems to complement him more as a LWF who can drop into the flanks when needed and cut inside, as per Facchetti's movements. Also it gives Rijkaard more liberty with his DM-CB movement.

Not sure if I can use Voronin as a CM as opposed to DM but he did seem impressive for the Soviets in the 1964 final and is a creative defensive b2b midfielder who should be at ease in that role. That does look like an imposing team with the right amount of firepower, defensive solidity, a good midfield and some insane width.

How were you planning on approaching the final reinforcement @harms ?
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That would have been our semi final side, with two CMs coming in for the final I think if we got through.. doubt we would have got MVB though as we would have been last pick for semis.
 
@Raees Looks a great side but if it were me, I'd just move Rijkaard into midfield, in the place of Pirlo (looks fairly redundant there with Der Kaiser) and play a 4-3-3 with a back 4 of Facchetti-Kohler-Beckenbauer-Thuram with a midfield trio of Lerby-Suárez-Rijkaard and a front trio of Henry-MvB-Ibra (the younger and more dynamic version).
 
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Joga Bonito said:
How were you planning on approaching the final reinforcement @harms ?
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Yeah, probably Thuram or Desailly to move Rijkaard higher since I didn't like any CM here (really, really poor CM pool in this draft, I have to say). I had my eyes on Thuram since the very beginning, to make this usual loopsided "italian" formation, but since I picked Meazza and Dzajic, it wasn't an option before I was ready to change my approach to 5-man in defence.

Have to say, your version of my team looks great :drool:
 
Congrats to Joga, some team.

Joga Bonito said:
@Raees Looks a great side but if it were me, I'd just move Rijkaard into midfield, in the place of Pirlo (looks fairly redundant there with Der Kaiser) and play a 4-3-3 with a back 4 of Facchetti-Kohler-Beckenbauer-Thuram with a midfield trio of Lerby-Suárez-Rijkaard and a front trio of Henry-MvB-Ibra (the younger and more dynamic version).
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Aye, sorry Raees but, as much as that defence is such a ridiculous brick wall, I might've slung for the back four version there.
 
Gio said:
Congrats to Joga, some team.


Aye, sorry Raees but, as much as that defence is such a ridiculous brick wall, I might've slung for the back four version there.
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Yeah you're both probably right.. just didn't know how to make it into a viable 433
 
Congrats @Joga Bonito Fantastic drafting, well written tactics and lots of great information about the players. Oh and, how much time did you actually spend creating all those gifs? That's crazy, but also awesome.

Great job from everyone else as well, it was fun running this draft. Good luck in the next one.
 
MJJ said:
And congrats joga! One of you or @harms really deserved to win this one given the amount of work you put into it.
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Gio said:
Congrats to Joga, some team.
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Cheers. Great game @MJJ @Edgar Allan Pillow @coolredwine . You guys assembled a cracking team and the scoreline isn't fair at all. Should have been much closer and I hope I wasn't too harsh on your team.

Balu said:
Congrats @Joga Bonito Fantastic drafting, well written tactics and lots of great information about the players. Oh and, how much time did you actually spend creating all those gifs? That's crazy, but also awesome.

Great job from everyone else as well, it was fun running this draft. Good luck in the next one.
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Great draft from you too.

Not too much tbh, just 15-20 mins at max. You just have to note down the specific periods of the match when watching it and it isn't too much of a hassle creating gifs (as I came to learn in this draft). The Stain actually helped make the first batch of gifs, the Maldini ones before I started to make them myself. I love watching matches from older eras, so that never was a problem but rather more of an initiative.
 
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Joga Bonito said:
A great midfield and a great but unbalanced attack.
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The attack just happened. It was never planned or intended to be. Before drafting began, I set myself a target on what I want to do and here it was a 4-3-2-1 Christmas tree. Puskas leadin with Gullit and maybe one more goal scoring right AM behind him. When the universal feedback was meh on Puskas leading, and it being hard to pass van Basten and yeah, unbalanced the whole side.

antohan said:
Told you from the outset Breitner was the wrong fullback for your team.
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Yup. My 1st of many mistakes in this draft. Had a choice between Brehme and Breitner for the pick and picked wrong tactically.

Raees said:
That would have been our semi final side
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You plonker. I still maintain that if not for pm-gate, you would have snatched a 1 or 2 vote victory. It was even and Aldo voted for you right at the end. I did not have any hopes of winning and even told MJJ/crw that we were going out. The Penos levelled the field.
 
congrats joga, really brilliant team at the end :)
 
harms said:
:(
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Well, all those that went out in the first round and didn't get picked would have to be ignored.

You have to look primarily at the finalists (corrected to leave those with outstanding contribution):


2. Edgar Allan Pillow & MJJ & coolredwine - 1. Puskás 2. Masopust 3. Gullit 4. Breitner 13. Blanc 15. Van Basten 16. Matthäus

7. Joga Bonito - 1. Maldini 2. B.Moore 3. Sindelar 4. Bergomi 6. Pluskal 9. Elkjær 13. Rummenigge 14. Desailly 15. Platini 16. Luisito Suárez Miramontes 17. Brehme (previously at Team harms up to semi)

+ any players/unit that left their mark prior to that

4. The Stain – Czibor- Zidane - Amancio and Puyol-Forster

8. harms - Dragan Džajić - Sárosi – Meazza, Schuster and Yashin

Need at least three out of: Puskas, Masopust, Sindelar, Pluskal, Czibor, Amancio, Sarosi, Meazza and Yashin - easy

No more than two out of:
- Hungary: Puskas, Czibor, Sarosi
- France: Blanc, Desailly, Platini and Zidane (Platini eliminates Zidane)
- Italy: Maldini, Bergomi, Meazza
- Germany: Rummenigge, Brehme, Forster and Schuster

Best players for winner: Maldini-Moore-Bergomi and Platini-Elkenigge
Best players for runner-up: Blanc, Masopust and front trio (ouch! that's hard)
Most influential players in semifanlists: Zidane, Dzajic and Schuster

All considering Euro performances obviously, not just draft...

Goalkeeper: Yashin
Striker: Marco van Basten
Right-forward: Karl-Heinz Rummenigge
Left-forward: Dragan Dzajic
#10: Michel Platini
CM1: Masopust
CM2: You know what? Pluskal earned that carrying Joga's midfield heavylifting throughout.
LB: Maldini
LCB: Desailly
RCB: Should be Blanc, but two Frenchmen so it's Bergomi
RB: Need a more attacking one, which is why Bergomi goes to the CB pairing ahead of Moore. Brehme.

AFAGEAGVSD-formation-tactics.png
 
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