The end of DEI (at least in America)

Edgar Allan Pillow

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With the latest signings, Trump has effectively outlawed DEI based on race and gender (disability and veterans are still ok!).

And it's not just reactive, but actively (I Think) prohibits US Govt and contractors from engaging any company having such initiatives. The language is vague, but sweeping (given the US Supreme Court support against Affirmative Action) and looks to be a death sentence against any such initiatives.

What surprises me is not the SC verdict or even the Trump edict, but rather the speed which Corporate America supported this by ending their own initiatives. Target, Costco, Amazon, Facebook & Instagram, McD, Walmart, Ford...and a number of other have been so efficient in ditching these. Now, it's not all doom...but does looks like Corporate America has predominantly turned it's back and more importantly feels like they were doing this to satisfy a criteria rather than any true belief in the concept and not happy to be rid of a burden!
 
Hasn’t he also removed the equal opportunities act which makes it legal to discriminate in hiring?
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
With the latest signings, Trump has effectively outlawed DEI based on race and gender (disability and veterans are still ok!).

And it's not just reactive, but actively (I Think) prohibits US Govt and contractors from engaging any company having such initiatives. The language is vague, but sweeping (given the US Supreme Court support against Affirmative Action) and looks to be a death sentence against any such initiatives.

What surprises me is not the SC verdict or even the Trump edict, but rather the speed which Corporate America supported this by ending their own initiatives. Target, Costco, Amazon, Facebook & Instagram, McD, Walmart, Ford...and a number of other have been so efficient in ditching these. Now, it's not all doom...but does looks like Corporate America has predominantly turned it's back and more importantly feels like they were doing this to satisfy a criteria rather than any true belief in the concept and not happy to be rid of a burden!
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Costco has not ended theirs. The others may have alright.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
With the latest signings, Trump has effectively outlawed DEI based on race and gender (disability and veterans are still ok!).

And it's not just reactive, but actively (I Think) prohibits US Govt and contractors from engaging any company having such initiatives. The language is vague, but sweeping (given the US Supreme Court support against Affirmative Action) and looks to be a death sentence against any such initiatives.

What surprises me is not the SC verdict or even the Trump edict, but rather the speed which Corporate America supported this by ending their own initiatives. Target, Costco, Amazon, Facebook & Instagram, McD, Walmart, Ford...and a number of other have been so efficient in ditching these. Now, it's not all doom...but does looks like Corporate America has predominantly turned it's back and more importantly feels like they were doing this to satisfy a criteria rather than any true belief in the concept and not happy to be rid of a burden!
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How do you outlaw diversity, equality, and inclusion?

I swear that 90% of the maga people who use this acronym have absolutely no idea what it means.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
How do you outlaw diversity, equality, and inclusion?

I swear that 90% of the maga people who use this acronym have absolutely no idea what it means.
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I understand because you can't (positively) discriminate anymore
 
in the context of corporate america dei was never a serious initiative to begin with. it’s only in the recent few years they have somewhat embraced it for the sake of making more money.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
How do you outlaw diversity, equality, and inclusion?

I swear that 90% of the maga people who use this acronym have absolutely no idea what it means.
Click to expand...

I've always assumed what they interpret it as is every movie, game, tv show or piece of media has only straight white people, and any job in real life that isn't on the lowest rung, should be only straight white people. And probably white men at that.

Women, colored people, LGBTQ etc., no one is there on merit, there are only there because of DEI. On merit the only people that should be anywhere are straight white people.
 
Cloud7 said:
I've always assumed what they interpret it as is every movie, game, tv show or piece of media has only straight white people, and any job in real life that isn't on the lowest rung, should be only straight white people. And probably white men at that.

Women, colored people, LGBTQ etc., no one is there on merit, there are only there because of DEI. On merit the only people that should be anywhere are straight white people.
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This is exactly it.

While a white guy from Fox News with feck all relevant experience is now US Secretary of Defence. Nevermind that he is also allegedly an alcoholic and sex offender.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Yeah but then that's something else. That's Affirmative Action.

But you can't outlaw diversity itself :lol:
It just exists.
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The point about is existing seems to really be lost on a lot of right wing people (and that’s not exclusive to America, you see it in the “culture war” nonsense in the UK as well)

They seem to think that people other than straight white people are being forced into roles and positions because of who they are, and not just because diversity in people actually exists
 
Cloud7 said:
The point about is existing seems to really be lost on a lot of right wing people (and that’s not exclusive to America, you see it in the “culture war” nonsense in the UK as well)

They seem to think that people other than straight white people are being forced into roles and positions because of who they are, and not just because diversity in people actually exists
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It really dismays me how right-wing folks take useful ideas, flip them, and co-opt them.

Like how Woke is actually a much older ideal about vigilantly protecting yourself and your community from these same right-wingers.

Fake news is another.

I expect those UK folks will start rebranding their anti immigrant protests as anti DEI soon, if they haven't already
 
unchanged_lineup said:
It really dismays me how right-wing folks take useful ideas, flip them, and co-opt them.

Like how Woke is actually a much older ideal about vigilantly protecting yourself and your community from these same right-wingers.

Fake news is another.

I expect those UK folks will start rebranding their anti immigrant protests as anti DEI soon, if they haven't already
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To be fair, DEI in a corporate context has a very specific meaning. And that’s how he’s using the term. It goes beyond affirmative action and includes stuff like compulsory training for employees about inclusivity in the workplace. Quibbling over terminology just distracts from what Trump is actually doing here.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
To be fair, DEI in a corporate context has a very specific meaning. And that’s how he’s using the term. It goes beyond affirmative action and includes stuff like compulsory training for employees about inclusivity in the workplace. Quibbling over terminology just distracts from what Trump is actually doing here.
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It's absolutely not quibbling. It's a set of ideals and frameworks that have been stripped of their original context and meaning and made into a boogeyman.

Its origin was to ensure not fairness, not to promote some form of elaborate favouritism that the right-wingers label it as. Literally this is the origin.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
It's absolutely not quibbling. It's a set of ideals and frameworks that have been stripped of their original context and meaning and made into a boogeyman.
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That set of ideals has been translated into legislation which has a real impact on corporate America. Stripping that legislation away will have consequences. So I don’t think this should be a discussion about a hypothetical bogeyman.

It’s a fair point that nothing Trump does will remove diversity, equality and inclusion as concepts but I don’t think anyone is claiming he can do that?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
To be fair, DEI in a corporate context has a very specific meaning. And that’s how he’s using the term. It goes beyond affirmative action and includes stuff like compulsory training for employees about inclusivity in the workplace. Quibbling over terminology just distracts from what Trump is actually doing here.
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As @Cloud7 said, the problem these people really have with it are what they think are "diversity hires". The irony being that the vast majority of people who have the problem with that couldn't do these jobs in a million years.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That set of ideals has been translated into legislation which has a real impact on corporate America. Stripping that legislation away will have consequences. So I don’t think this should be a discussion about a hypothetical bogeyman.

It’s a fair point that nothing Trump does will remove diversity and inclusion as concepts but I don’t think anyone is claiming he can do that?
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It's Trump. The effect will be scattergun, poorly thought out, and cackhandedly followed through.

It will mostly just be an opportunity for the racists to gleefully settle some imaginary scores.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That set of ideals has been translated into legislation which has a real impact on corporate America. Stripping that legislation away will have consequences. So I don’t think this should be a discussion about a hypothetical bogeyman.

It’s a fair point that nothing Trump does will remove diversity, equality and inclusion as concepts but I don’t think anyone is claiming he can do that?
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The original post said "outlaw DEI"
 
My take on what it means is that I’m not sure how effective the corporate attempts at DEI really are. My own experience of it is that it feels like paying lip service. Being seen to run DEI initiatives for the sake of it. Similar vibe to corporate greenwashing.

But forced removal of these initiatives will feel horrible for minorities working (or hoping to work) at these corporations. Even if the actual impact was marginal, getting rid will come across as change to the culture where suddenly you matter less than you did before. And that’s grim.
 
Cloud7 said:
I've always assumed what they interpret it as is every movie, game, tv show or piece of media has only straight white people, and any job in real life that isn't on the lowest rung, should be only straight white people. And probably white men at that.

Women, colored people, LGBTQ etc., no one is there on merit, there are only there because of DEI. On merit the only people that should be anywhere are straight white people.
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But obviously not straight white people like them, because they're thick as shit. Unless Cletus thinks the only reason he isn't Exec VP of Sales is because the Harvard graduate who got the job is black.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
It really dismays me how right-wing folks take useful ideas, flip them, and co-opt them.

Like how Woke is actually a much older ideal about vigilantly protecting yourself and your community from these same right-wingers.

Fake news is another.

I expect those UK folks will start rebranding their anti immigrant protests as anti DEI soon, if they haven't already
Click to expand...

This is spot on.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
My take on what it means
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Oh, thank feck. I've been waiting all day hoping you'd finally show up to submit your expert opinion on yet another subject.

But seriously, I don't disagree with the last part.
 
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Pogue Mahone said:
My take on what it means is that I’m not sure how effective the corporate attempts at DEI really are. My own experience of it is that it feels like paying lip service. Being seen to run DEI initiatives for the sake of it. Similar vibe to corporate greenwashing.

But forced removal of these initiatives will feel horrible for minorities working (or hoping to work) at these corporations. Even if the actual impact was marginal, getting rid will come across as change to the culture where suddenly you matter less than you did before. And that’s grim.
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You mean you don't artificially matter more than others anymore and would have to prove your worth? Hire someone because they are good at what they do, not because they fit a certain innate criteria.

Unless you're depicting something of course, then try to get it right to the source.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
My take on what it means is that I’m not sure how effective the corporate attempts at DEI really are. My own experience of it is that it feels like paying lip service. Being seen to run DEI initiatives for the sake of it. Similar vibe to corporate greenwashing.

But forced removal of these initiatives will feel horrible for minorities working (or hoping to work) at these corporations. Even if the actual impact was marginal, getting rid will come across as change to the culture where suddenly you matter less than you did before. And that’s grim.
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Out of interest Pogue - what experience is your take based on in terms of your first sentence? Have younexperience of working in a large corporate with an ineffective DEI policy?

I know in my place, the real value of DEI policies is participation in the various groups that spawn from there - be that LGBTQ society, multi-cultural society, even initiatives aimed at mothers returning to work. There's no lip service there - it is genuinely valuable stuff for both the employees participating and the company itself.
 
Gee Male said:
Out of interest Pogue - what experience is your take based on in terms of your first sentence? Have younexperience of working in a large corporate with an ineffective DEI policy?

I know in my place, the real value of DEI policies is participation in the various groups that spawn from there - be that LGBTQ society, multi-cultural society, even initiatives aimed at mothers returning to work. There's no lip service there - it is genuinely valuable stuff for both the employees participating and the company itself.
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Talking about my own experience. Good to hear a different opinion. I’m just so jaded by everything corporations to do pretend they care about their employees. But if there is more perceived value in these initiatives than my own take on them that’s great. Plus I’m sure some corporations are better at implementing them than others.
 
Disney seems to be most affected by this. They have spent tons to be more inclusive (not saying it's bad of course).
 
VorZakone said:
So this is a UK example but it's basically one of the examples why many on the right have an issue with "DEI".

https://news.sky.com/story/royal-ai...bid-to-boost-diversity-inquiry-finds-12911888
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There's something a bit odd about this?
Why don't they say who did the report?
Not that I'm saying it's wrong, but I'm just generally wary of Sky News.

Also, they do say that recruitment standards weren't lowered. So the folks who were hired may still have got these roles on open competition.
 
Gee Male said:
Out of interest Pogue - what experience is your take based on in terms of your first sentence? Have younexperience of working in a large corporate with an ineffective DEI policy?

I know in my place, the real value of DEI policies is participation in the various groups that spawn from there - be that LGBTQ society, multi-cultural society, even initiatives aimed at mothers returning to work. There's no lip service there - it is genuinely valuable stuff for both the employees participating and the company itself.
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Those ERG style groups are employee driven. I've had the same postive experience as you with them.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Talking about my own experience. Good to hear a different opinion. I’m just so jaded by everything corporations to do pretend they care about their employees. But if there is more perceived value in these initiatives than my own take on them that’s great. Plus I’m sure some corporations are better at implementing them than others.
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This is fair enough. The organisations who advocate for marginalised groups also strongly call out these same corporate surface-level practices a lot too.
 
Can we just feck the US off? Is there a viable financial avenue to just trading with European countries and staying the feck away from them?

At one point do we realise that these cnuts are the baddies?
 
unchanged_lineup said:
As @Cloud7 said, the problem these people really have with it are what they think are "diversity hires". The irony being that the vast majority of people who have the problem with that couldn't do these jobs in a million years.
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That's a good point and I think it gets to the crux of MAGA and the Right's agenda.
From my perspective what Trump is basically doing is mobilising people's discontent with a capitalist society. Can't get the job you want? Struggling to make ends meet? Well it's because these non white, non American people have invaded the country, took your job and are taking money meant for you.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
There's something a bit odd about this?
Why don't they say who did the report?
Not that I'm saying it's wrong, but I'm just generally wary of Sky News.

Also, they do say that recruitment standards weren't lowered. So the folks who were hired may still have got these roles on open competition.
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A bit odd to pick on Sky News "credibility", they didn't invent this story out of thin air. BBC reported it too:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-66060490
 
I work in academia. I'm in Europe now, but have worked at 3 major US universities, including an Ivy league uni, as a researcher/professor. Because of DEI type policies, you have to sign declarations about your moral commitment to diversity (which usually means discriminatory hiring practices favoring minorities and LGBTQ) to get a job or a grant. In hiring commitees people often refuse to even consider white male applicants despite qualifcations, because the department needs more diversity. I've also studied the literature on mandatory bias training (which had been common place in many american universities), and basically there is zero evidence that it does anything positive. If anything, it makes people less open to ideas about diversity and inclusion.

Within the universities, If you openly voice dissent to any of this, you're tagged as a Trump supporter and racist. I didn't vote for Trump, but personally am 100% in favor of dismantling these DEI programs. They are waste of taxpayer money and only serve to exaggerate unfairness. People should be judged on their merits, not their skin color, gender or sexual preference. And you shouldn't suffer negative professional consequences if you believe that.
 
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