The Double Draft - SF: Chesterlestreet vs harms

[harms]

Tempted to take my vote off you* harms , great football knowledge but saying you wouldn't take nesta over cannavaro is madness even if Fabio is your team captain.

*I won't actually take my vote off you.

Yeah, that's why I said exactly the opposite

It actually reminds me of Rio - Vidic debate, with Rio (Nesta) being a more talented defender and football player, and Vidic being better in a few aspects and not being that far behind Rio at his peak level but because everyone (rightly) agrees that Rio was better the gap between them seems much bigger now than it actually was.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Yeah, that's why I said exactly the opposite

It actually reminds me of Rio - Vidic debate, with Rio (Nesta) being a more talented defender and football player, and Vidic being better in a few aspects and not being that far behind Rio at his peak level but because everyone (rightly) agrees that Rio was better the gap between them seems much bigger now than it actually was.

Apologies read it completely wrong. You need to stop trying to be such a smartarse though

 

[harms]

I've said it before but you rate players far too much based on where they rank in these online lists (which are often nonsense)

Not really, I don't use ones apart from the specific drafts like the Euro one, but I use player's achievements to back my views up because without that it's just going to be "I think that..."

Don't agree with you on Baresi as he is the best defender that I ever saw and is ahead of Nesta even in the purely defensive point of view, but it's just my opinion

 

[Theon]

And you have Cannavaro.

As far as the comparison with Baresi goes, if you are talking of pure defensive skills and take out the leadership and forward play out of the equation, it's really not an unfair comment. Nesta's defending was close to flawless with very little or no weakness.

We actually have Baresi as well so harms' comment there was bizarre. Needlessly defensive but he has a tendency to do that.

But yeah this is exactly what I'm getting at.

There is a clear disparity between the two and Baresi is the superior player when you look at their overall quality and influence in possession, but in terms of actual defending (i.e. marking, heading, tackling and defensive positioning) then you're really splitting hairs - both Baresi and Nesta were close to flawless.

 

[berbatrick]

Nilton Santos and Suarez would seem to be relatively free, on the other side it's Rjikaard and Falcao...
On the other hand Messi delivering his Neymar pass to a run by Ronaldo (even if he is marked by Thuram) seems such an obvious route to goal.

 

[harms]

We actually have Baresi as well so harms' comment there was bizarre. Needlessly defensive but he has a tendency to do that.

I do - but you didn't downplay Baresi's game rather then elevated your other defender to his level (defensively), so I'm not sure how you having Baresi makes my comment bizarre.

We tend to disagree on lots of things though, so let's leave it at that. Nesta is better than Cannavaro, but
1. I don't think that Cannavaro is a weakness at this stage (or at any stage for that matter)
2. I don't think that my comment about Cannavaro being better than Nesta in 2005 and 2006 was out of place either
3. I don't think that Nesta was as good as Baresi defensively and I'd put him into the next tier with Maldini, Figueroa and Moore (and maybe a very few others)

Dixi

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Maldini and baresi belong in the same tier .

After that you have nesta , scirea, Gentile , facchetti, Costacurta and Bergomi- all of whom I'd have before cannavaro

 

[Theon]

I do - but you didn't downplay Baresi's game rather then elevated your other defender to his level (defensively), so I'm not sure how you having Baresi makes my comment bizarre.

Mate, it was you who brought up Nesta when you said that Cannavaro was a candidate for an all time Italian XI.

These games are supposed to be threads for discussion, you've really lost the plot if you think I've got involved in this thread to try and get an advantage for a separate match - that would be mental and I'm really not that arsed.

There is no need to do that anyway - we're talking about Nesta here, it's not some randomer from South America and everyone on the Caf knows how good he was.

But yeah, some example past posts - in that last post I actually had Cannavaro in my team.

Cannavaro isn't good enough to win the draft, I'm not sure how he's viewed on the Caf but he's been vastly overrated during his career and not a patch on someone like Nesta.

Agree with the Rio comparisons, Nesta is one of the only defenders I can think of that reads the game better than Rio. Both class acts.

Also - there was nothing between Cannavaro and Thuram when they played together at Juventus, so implying there was this gulf in quality is absolute nonsense. Cannavaro was never as good as Nesta, but neither was Thuram.

 

[harms]

you've really lost the plot if you think I've got involved in this thread to try and get an advantage for a separate match - that would be mental and I'm really not that arsed.

It was a tongue in cheek edit ffs, although, like I said multiple times, I don't fully agree with your assessment of him

 

[Ecstatic]

He prepares the game of tomorrow

@Theon

I wasn't serious here

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Maldini and baresi belong in the same tier .

After that you have nesta , scirea, Gentile , facchetti, Costacurta and Bergomi- all of whom I'd have before cannavaro

Facchetti is up there with Nilton Santos and Maldini as the GOATs for that position.

As far as sweepers are concerned, I doubt there is much to differentiate between Beckenbauer, Scirea, Baresi, Passarella & Figureoa. It has been argued that Beckenbauer is above the rest, but I put them all in the same class depending on the setup of the team around them.

Edit: I'd stop short of calling Nesta a sweeper. He's up there just below Bobby Moore and Santamaria as a ball playing CB imo.

Bergomi and Cannavaro are a class below all of the above...but still better than Costacurta & Gentile who belong nowhere near that exalted class.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

As mentioned already the configurations aren't too dissimilar here: It's the same basic 3 versus 3 in terms of dedicated attackers and dedicated defenders. There is no doubt whatsoever that Cafu/Santos are better than Kaltz/Lizarazu – but the question is, as with every other area of play, to what extent this will be decisive. I'd argue that their superiority is more marked defensively than offensively (Kaltz is a specialist – as a crossing wingback he has few, if any, peers) – and they're (obviously) first and foremost suited to lateral defending: My main presence on the wings are precisely Lizarazu/Kaltz – whose function is stretching play, combining with supporting attackers, and providing crosses into (and around) the box. But my most formidable attacking threat, as such, is literally speaking centred down the middle – it's the central combination of Cruyff, Charlton and Müller (as the spearhead) I'm most likely to get a goal from here.

Gentile on Cruyff – Figueroa on Müller. You have to assume not only that Gentile actually manages to keep Cruyff quiet – but that Figueroa does the same with Müller, at the same time.

Not more likely than my Thuram/Moore/Förster combo assisted by Rijkaard (centrally) and the wingbacks (out wide) managing to keep the opponent's attacking trio (assisted by Santos/Cafu, of course – but that involves precisely the same basic risk as my own game does, if you have your wingback attacking with dedication, he could be caught out, and will have to recover) at bay – or is it? I don't know – but it doesn't seem clear cut to me.

Remember that if this Müller incarnation is anyone in particular, it's the '72 version – not the '74 version (who was less conspicuous as a player who covered a surprising amount of ground for such a seemingly specialized finisher. There is considerable mobility at play here – from all three of my main attacking threats. Figueroa keeps his backyard clean – as he famously claimed to do – but Müller isn't standing, predictably, around in that backyard.

To an extent you can legitimately say that both Cruyff and Müller will either operate away from the areas where their designated minders are most comfortable – or, alternatively, they will actually keep dragging those minders around the park to a considerable degree.

3 versus 3 – or 5 versus 5 at the most offensive. Same numbers, by the looks of it.

The midfield combos * are interesting in this picture (which is artificial, of course - it always is, looking at it in terms of sheer numbers and whatnot, but we all know that) – not much has been made of them so far. My biggest selling point is obviously Rijkaard – whom I can confidently claim is actually capable of influencing the game offensively, while still minding his defensive duties, to a degree Desailly can't match at all – no disrespect to him.

* It wouldn't be unreasonable to say that the basic difference between the 5-3-2/3-5-2 variations on display here - is that harms' is more of a 5-2-3, with mine more of a 5-3-2, or if you want to get overly fussy a 5-2-1-2 (with Charlton being that extra cog in the actual midfield machinery).

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Jesus...poor old Cannavaro is getting eviscerated here. He's one of the better stoppers I've ever seen for what its worth, and I don't think harms' assessment was particularly overboard. I've certainly seen credible all-time Italy XIs where he's vying with Nesta for a place, although in fairness that's more due to him possibly being a 'cleaner' tactical fit alongside a Baresi or Scirea than him being better than Nesta. Still, of the names thrown out in this thread I think he's clearly better than Costacurta and close to Bergomi.

 

[Ecstatic]

My biggest selling point is obviously Rijkaard – whom I can confidently claim is actually capable of influencing the game offensively, while still minding his defensive duties, to a degree Desailly can't match at all – no disrespect to him.

* It wouldn't be unreasonable to say that the basic difference between the 5-3-2/3-5-2 variations on display here - is that harms' is more of a 5-2-3, with mine more of a 5-3-2, or if you want to get overly fussy a 5-2-1-2 (with Charlton being that extra cog in the actual midfield machinery).

IMHO You are likely dominate the heart of the game: superb box-to-box, an attacking-playmaking midfielder and a central holding midfielder not to mention the possible contribution of Cruyff.

Dessailly will mainly target Charlton so you have Rijkaard + Falcao against Luis Suarez if my understanding is good.

 

[Physiocrat]

Seriously close going for Chester by 1 goal. I think he has the defensive solidity to shut out harms and nick one on the break. It's really Cruyff against the LCB and RCB which swung it for me. It's not that Cannavaro or Gentile are intrinsically poor players, car from it, I just see Cruyff causing them serious problems.

 

[harms]

It's really Cruyff against the LCB and RCB which swung it for me. It's not that Cannavaro or Gentile are intrinsically poor players, car from it, I just see Cruyff causing them serious problems.

Can you elaborate? I'm alright with people who believe that Gentile won't shut down Cruyff because he isn't up to it, but you are hinting at the tactical problem if I understand you correctly and I don't think that I can agree with you on that

Did you notice that Gentile is man-marking him btw? He is very similar to Vogts in his man-marking style and he is a brilliant fit, imo - the only question about it is not tactical/stylistic but purely quality related - is Gentile, who man-marked Maradona and Zico is good enough to shut down Cruyff?

 

[Physiocrat]

Can you elaborate? I'm alright with people who believe that Gentile won't shut down Cruyff because he isn't up to it, but you are hinting at the tactical problem if I understand you correctly and I don't think that I can agree with you on that

Did you notice that Gentile is man-marking him btw? He is very similar to Vogts in his man-marking style and he is a brilliant fit, imo - the only question about it is not tactical/stylistic but purely quality related - is Gentile, who man-marked Maradona and Zico is good enough to shut down Cruyff?

It's not a tactical point (I was just using LCB and RCB as it was shorter than writing names). If think Cruyff will cause problems for both Cannavaro and Gentile as he has a free role and neither of them are the right type of defender against him.

I get the Vogts comparison but I'm with Chester's take- over time attack beats defense since it only takes one error to be punished.

 

[Moby]

The midfield numbers battle even if it looks uneven on paper wouldn't result in a big loss for harms as he's sitting back playing on the counter and not looking to dominate possession in midfield. He has the defense (Don Elias in particular) to successfully cope with the opposition attack without much damage (Muller will get his one customary goal) and on the counter he will hurt. That right-left combo is basically unstoppable and has the platform to shine here. Goals win games. 2/3-1 to harms.

 

[Gio]

Jesus...poor old Cannavaro is getting eviscerated here. He's one of the better stoppers I've ever seen for what its worth, and I don't think harms' assessment was particularly overboard. I've certainly seen credible all-time Italy XIs where he's vying with Nesta for a place, although in fairness that's more due to him possibly being a 'cleaner' tactical fit alongside a Baresi or Scirea than him being better than Nesta. Still, of the names thrown out in this thread I think he's clearly better than Costacurta and close to Bergomi.

I agree. I rate him quite a bit higher than Costacurta. Nesta is obviously a notch above but after that there's not a lot in it.

What threw me a little was seeing him with the captain's armband. Not to underestimate his clear leadership or the talismanic nature of his performances in 2006 for example, but it was more an instinctive reaction given the park is overflowing with legends many of whom have even stronger CVs.

 

[Enigma_87]

N.Santos/Cafu swing it in harms favor for me. Both better than their counterparts in similar set up. Chester has a tad better midfield, but harms is much better on the flanks.

 

[harms]

What threw me a little was seeing him with the captain's armband. Not to underestimate his clear leadership or the talismanic nature of his performances in 2006 for example, but it was more an instinctive reaction given the park is overflowing with legends many of whom have even stronger CVs.

Only Figueroa and Cafu are comparable in my team in terms of their leadership, and I don't think that there's much between them tbf. Although it's obvious who the main man and defence organizer is so I probably should've just given him the armband.

There is also a matter of superstition - both of my previous captains fecked off to Ibiza already and I'd rather lose Cannavaro than Figueroa if I'm to go forward

 

[harms]

By the way, here's a nice article about van Basten from a "portrait of an icon" series - not that he needs advertising
The length and paleness of his legs combined with the short shorts of the 1980s gave him the pre-match look of a baby giraffe, but never have looks been more deceiving...

 

[Gio]

Only Figueroa and Cafu are comparable in my team in terms of their leadership, and I don't think that there's much between them tbf. Although it's obvious who the main man and defence organizer is so I probably should've just given him the armband.

There is also a matter of superstition - both of my previous captains fecked off to Ibiza already and I'd rather lose Cannavaro than Figueroa if I'm to go forward

Yeah I wouldn't question that choice of captain. Figueroa brings a bit more grativas, but Cannavaro is an obvious leader too.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

By the way, here's a nice article about van Basten from a "portrait of an icon" series - not that he needs advertising
The length and paleness of his legs combined with the short shorts of the 1980s gave him the pre-match look of a baby giraffe, but never have looks been more deceiving...

How highly do you rate Van basten ? From what I've seen and heard , he had the potential to be much greater than he was and he's still regarded by most as a GOAT forward . There's really no one comparable in today's game

 

[harms]

How highly do you rate Van basten ? From what I've seen and heard , he had the potential to be much greater than he was and he's still regarded by most as a GOAT forward . There's really no one comparable in today's game

Personally, I think that van Basten and Ronaldo are the most complete strikers in history, although both of them could've (and should've) been even better, which is hard to imagine, considering the heights they achieved playing through pain and constant injuries. Müller, Puskas (if we qualify him as such) and Romario are also very close to their level and the choice between them is mainly a tactical one, but van Basten and Ronaldo were more complete and capable of a dazzling array of different goals - you won't see Müller dribbling through half of the defence or Puskas outmuscling 1,90m defender in the air, for example.

As a target striker and a focal point of the attack I'd have van Basten ahead of everyone else, really.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Well played @harms - and best of luck in the final (and not least before the final - that last injury is a potential killer). We're usually on the same page in these drafts - that's my impression anyway, and this match was no different: I can't fault any of your decisions, and you generally argue in a way which is very close to my own reasoning. So, there was never much chance of any handbags being swung here.

As for the match itself, I think @Aldo summed it up best above: The crucial discrepancy here is goal threat – same as my last match, actually, but I wasn't punished for it then.

Personally, I don't think the WB discrepancy is decisive: It's general, if you will (Santos and Cafu are obviously better players, overall) – but it is not a significant discrepancy in terms of adding direct attacking punch. As such it's about the same – considered as a discrepancy in strength – as the central midfield situation, where I have an edge (but not a decisive one).

So, what it comes down to – for me – is goal threat: That's where the discrepancy could be crucial. I can plausibly enough claim that I'll be able to limit your attackers in a comparable way to how you will limit mine – but the direct goal threat of your trio is clearly more pronounced than mine to begin with. The huge upside to Messi and Ronaldo – both objectively and in terms of draft tactics – is that they're so undeniably prolific: The latter is a very weighty argument in almost any context.

That said, I don't think there's anything very obvious I could have gone for when upgrading – to remedy the above. I could have replaced Cruyff and/or Charlton with players I could've sold as being more obvious (direct) goal threats, but a) the difference wouldn't have been very dramatic (both Cruyff and Charlton are goal threats), b) these hypothetical players would hardly have been upgrades in terms of overall quality and c) there could have been balance issues of all sorts. So, realistically, the only thing I could have done is to strengthen those WB positions (again, in terms of overall quality). The latter might have been possible – but it's hard to say, and I doubt it would've made much of a difference.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Am tempted to change here , the more I look at it the more chesters midfield looks like it would dominate , and can see muller getting the better of cannavaro. Also agree with Thuram being Ronaldos kryptonite comment .

 

[harms]

Am tempted to change here , the more I look at it the more chesters midfield looks like it would dominate , and can see muller getting the better of cannavaro.

I don't think that any midfield can dominate Desailly and Luis Suarez pairing who are sitting deep and soaking pressure and not pointlessly running around. Chester's midfield is perfect and they definitely have an edge over mine, but they won't dominate.

And Muller's main opponent is still Figueroa (check out how it's always him who appears near Muller when the Germans attacked, only 2 times in that game the other defender picked him), not Cannavaro.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

That was a tough match to call. Hard luck @Chesterlestreet

Congrats @harms !

 

[harms]

Great game and amazing team, @Chesterlestreet. I probably like your set of players even more than I do mine, Falcao, Charlton, Rijkaard, Cruyff, that's a pretty much a guarantee of a drool-worthy football . Like you said, your team is almost impossible to upgrade on - Facchetti/Brehme/N. Santos over Lizarazu as an attacking WB, Cafu/C. Alberto as a right WB and maybe Maldini over Forster - other than that it's literally impossible to find better players than the ones that you have.

Ronaldo - Messi axis probably decided the game here, not only their indisputable quality, but also their popularity and reputation amongst the modern fans - I see three new names who voted for me, for example.


Also, a bonus - some gems that I found on Gerd Müller

Gerd Muller - Carlsberg don't do goalscorers, but if they did it would probably be something like Niclas Bendtner (not a big fan of Carlsberg). A more classy beverage producer would give you the greatest in history.

Gerd Müller I believe messi broke his record of scoring 75 goals or more and Beckenbauer is amazing he got more offers and he was a speedster to good for a defender. They are good in fifa 13 muller is ovr 90 and Beckenbauer is 93 ovr u can see that Beckenbauer is better

 

[Chesterlestreet]

(he's right about Carlsberg, though)