The Double Draft - QF2 : Raees vs Chester

[Raees]

Not sure how Effenberg could provide a more solid layer to my midfield than Desailly.

Usually people would claim it takes a very all time great DM to stand a chance against Zico but in this game.. There's a lot of confidence in Jansen.

 

[Ecstatic]

I was surprised to see Effenberg heavily criticized by some posters in the 1st round!

I hope I would be able to take a decision before the deadline

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Well, this Zico business seems to depend on how one views the attacking options here, I suppose.

I don't see why it should be crucial for me to have Jansen shut Zico down, to be honest. Shutting Zico down would be nice, of course, but why this should be a priority – given the overall setup – is unclear to me.

As stated what I deal with is a four-man attack (two wide men, a false nine of sorts and Zico in his AM-ish role). I field a four man back line who are instructed to play conservatively. Now, if Zico appeared in the equation as an outside factor, it would be absolutely necessary to make sure that someone other than those IN the equation took care of him at all times – but that isn't the case.

As it stands, I'm happy to have Jansen in a less restricted role there: He plays mainly as a DM (which means that he will be around Zico, as it were – and he's generally a pesky and extremely industrious player) but is also meant to contribute offensively to some extent (which gives me an edge offensively/creatively, at least in theory: The Jansen-Falcao pair is more productive offensively than the Desailly-Neeskens combo – whereas the opposite is true defensively): This is an artificial way of looking at it, obviously, but all these “battles” are just that.

Comparing the respective strength of the teams defensively, what I lose from having Jansen there (as more of an allrounder and less of a pure DM) I more than make up for in having the better CB pair (in my opinion, at least) and the superior keeper (no contest, objectively speaking).

 

[harms]

Ice in the sense that he's the sweeper; the calm ball player.. reader of the game. Is that not an accurate depiction of his position in this formation ?

I may be wrong but he is the last player I would've described as "ice". Defensive sweeper like Scirea can be described as a calming presence at the back, an attacking (or even ultra-attacking) libero like Sammer, who loved jumping in tackles? I don't know, maybe we talk about different players. If you want him to play as a pure sweeper I think he's probably the worst one out of the great liberos to do so.

 

[harms]

I would say Berti's attacking qualities are very underrated. He nearly scored in a World Cup Final, rampaging down the left wing.. and has the brain of a midfielder in possession, very composed passer going forwards, good crosser and excellent speed, accurate dribbling ability

Definitely, and he didn't look out of place in Borussia's attacking game (arguably the most entertaining team in BL history)

 

[Raees]

I may be wrong but he is the last player I would've described as "ice". Defensive sweeper like Scirea can be described as a calming presence at the back, an attacking (or even ultra-attacking) libero like Sammer, who loved jumping in tackles? I don't know, maybe we talk about different players. If you want him to play as a pure sweeper I think he's probably the worst one out of the great liberos to do so.

I was trying to locate full games and this one, he looked really calm and elegant. I don't know if this is an inaccurate depiction though?

 

[harms]

I was trying to locate full games and this one, he looked really calm and elegant. I don't know if this is an inaccurate depiction though?

Well, there are posters here who know him better than I do, obviously, but I don't see the point of him in this game. His standout quality, even as a defender, was his devastating runs and almost unmatched offensive contribution - if you want to play him like that, build a team around him. Play him in a back three. What you did here is limited two of your biggest players (Vogts and Desailly) to cover for Sammer, if he plays like he usually play - or you limited Sammer massively by playing him as a Picchi-esque sweeper, which is the role that I don't think fits him at all. There are quite a few defenders I would've picked before him for this specific role.

Rico is the decider though, no two ways about it - although I still would've probably voted for Chester

 

[Ecstatic]

Sorry but I fully disagree with harms & raees regarding the definition of ice

Spoiler: Definition - website How to defend in Football ?

 

[Raees]

She'd probably do a better job in goal than Rico

 

[Gio]

Pretty tight this one. Despite the kid in the sticks, I gave the edge to Raees here but didn't get online in time for the vote.

Still, perhaps one of the first examples of a goalkeeper having a clear impact on the result (e.g from a close affair towards a comfortable win) which is refreshing fare.

 

[Raees]

Congratulations @Chesterlestreet - sorry I couldn't give you a closer game. No worries @Gio - lesson to be learned and I have always supported keepers being given more credit so it is a fair result.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Congratulations @Chesterlestreet - sorry I couldn't give you a closer game. No worries @Gio - lesson to be learned and I have always supported keepers being given more credit so it is a fair result.

Thanks, mate - and as far as the game goes, it was clearly Rico for the main part.

I didn't consider it likely that people would rate certain players very highly, so I needed a flaw on the opposite side - and that flaw was obviously Rico.

Pure lottery, really, as the voters who genuinely bought into my selection + setup probably wouldn't have been enough if you had sported a more credible keeper.

For once it actually mattered, though - the keeper thing. Which is something, I suppose.

 

[Ecstatic]

@Raees

Fantastic job/gifs/contributions. Really mixed feelings so I didn't vote yesterday and this morning I was busy.

When you have paid Desailly at a high price, I thought your plan was to rebuild the Golden France defence between 1995 and 2000: Lizarazu/Blanc/Dessailly
----> Euro 96: SF
----> WC 98: Winner
----> Euro 00: Winner

Some views:

Award of the best pure scorer: Chester
Award of the best SS / Forward: Raees
Award of the best playmaking/attacking midfielder: Chester
Award of the best left-winger: Raees
Award of the best offensive strategy: Raees (tostao-zico + 4 players able to score a lot while Matthews didn't use to score a lot: more unpredictable)

Similar midfields in terms of quality. Dessailly is physically stronger but Janssen certainly offers more mobility.

Award of the best defender: Chester
Award of the best CB pairing: Chester
Award of the best GK: Chester - an issue for some voters not only in terms of quality but because Chester spent 20m to replace DDG

The result is 'harsh' imho, not only explained by the GK but also by the discussion about Sammer. It's always harder to sell a player who used to play in a very different tactical system and Sammer got the Ballon d'Or 1996 because he was an 'offensive defender'!

Unlucky to lose Figo BTW

@Chesterlestreet congrats

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Award of the best offensive strategy: Raees (tostao-zico + 4 players able to score a lot while Matthews didn't use to score a lot: more unpredictable)

This is where Raees had the clearest edge, I think – but hardly anything was made of it, luckily for me.

If we're entering “battle” mode again, it's much likelier that Desailly would've been able to limit Charlton's impact than Jansen doing the same with Zico – and Zico is an even more obvious goal threat than Charlton to boot. Furthermore, if we assume that Vogts manages to keep Finney relatively quiet – and tracks him too, when he cuts inside – well, that leaves Müller as my only obvious goal threat.

He's a considerable one, obviously, and the most deadly finisher on the park – but R's entire front four (considered as such) are clear goal threats.

Neeskens is statistically more likely to score than Falcao too – so in terms of obvious goal scorers, there's actually no competition. Realistically, what I had to do here is go toe-to-toe and bank on grabbing the winner in a tight affair. But this presupposes that my four-against-four do not slip up – and that I manage to grab said winner in spite of not possessing the greatest goal scoring capacity per default. Conclusion? It all comes down to Rico again. My only truly convincing argument is that Rico isn't up to scratch, making it significantly more likely that Müller (or perhaps Charlton, from range) will decide the thing.

 

[Raees]

@Raees

Fantastic job/gifs/contributions. Really mixed feelings so I didn't vote yesterday and this morning I was busy.

When you have paid Desailly at a high price, I thought your plan was to rebuild the Golden France defence between 1995 and 2000: Lizarazu/Blanc/Dessailly
----> Euro 96: SF
----> WC 98: Winner
----> Euro 00: Winner

Some views:

Award of the best pure scorer: Chester
Award of the best SS / Forward: Raees
Award of the best playmaking/attacking midfielder: Chester
Award of the best left-winger: Raees
Award of the best offensive strategy: Raees (tostao-zico + 4 players able to score a lot while Matthews didn't use to score a lot: more unpredictable)

Similar midfields in terms of quality. Dessailly is physically stronger but Janssen certainly offers more mobility.

Award of the best defender: Chester
Award of the best CB pairing: Chester
Award of the best GK: Chester - an issue for some voters not only in terms of quality but because Chester spent 20m to replace DDG

The result is 'harsh' imho, not only explained by the GK but also by the discussion about Sammer. It's always harder to sell a player who used to play in a very different tactical system and Sammer got the Ballon d'Or 1996 because he was an 'offensive defender'!

Unlucky to lose Figo BTW

@Chesterlestreet congrats

thanks for the analysis mate.. Wish you and Chester all the best going forwards.

 

[Raees]

And my plan was to use sammer in midfield but Invictus said the trend recently was against that as a strategy.. Think Rico was the main issue though

 

[Ecstatic]

thanks for the analysis mate.. Wish you and Chester all the best going forwards.

You're welcome.

Unfortunately, I regret that I didn't vote and take the time to reasearch about the 2 teams earlier.

And my plan was to use sammer in midfield but Invictus said the trend recently was against that as a strategy.. Think Rico was the main issue though

Rico has certainly influenced Tuppet & 1-2 other voters maybe but I still believe it is just a part of the puzzle.

Then, there are some simplistic labels like a 'defender good offensively is necessarily average/bad defensively'.

The risk is high to be 'misunderstood' when one is 'rather creative'. For example, Sammer is known to be an 'advanced sweeper' in a 3-5-2 system. Of course, he could be an excellent defensive midfielder, especially when it comes to a game like Dortmund-Hertha Berlin in the 90s. Nowadays, Lahm & Alaba are sometimes used as midfielders. Alaba even played the role of false 9 with Austria at the Euro 2016. On the one hand, it would be easy to say 'Alaba is one of the greatest side-back of the last 20 years. On the other hand, it would be hard to sell him as a midfielder in this draft when you see the other midfielders.

For example, Desailly is mostly known for being a world-class stopper despite the fact he was very good when he was a DM (2 or 3 years in his career?)

To finish, pre-war players - like Nasazzi playing in the 30s - tend logically to be 'unknown/ignored/underrated' in this draft so that the 'focus' was only on Rico/Sammer.