Agree with harms on the ratings though. I'd have Figueroa over Passarella.
L1: Beckenbauer
L2: Baresi/Figueroa
L3: Passarella/Krol/Moore/Scirea
L4: Sammer
The best player who has never won the Ballon D'Or
- Thread starter Don Alfredo
- Start date
Agree with harms on the ratings though. I'd have Figueroa over Passarella.
L1: Beckenbauer
L2: Baresi/Figueroa
L3: Passarella/Krol/Moore/Scirea
L4: Sammer
Considering the second part of the sentence, and this is something that gets quoted a lot, so I assume that it's true in some respect, then his direct competitors were the likes of Cruyff and Beckenbauer.
The 1978 SA award (which, I would assume, was Passarella's peak) had Kempes, Fillol and Dirceu in top-3. Not exactly an unbeatable bunch. But Passarella never even got a nomination — and it's not surprising, considering how center backs are usually rated at those things. Which makes Figueroa's achievements even more impressive. And, frankly, from what I've seen of them both, I'd pick Don Elias 10 times out of 10 without hesitation, even though Passarella was fantastic.
Think we did that a while ago in the main thread and I'd still rate them the same:
T0 Beckenbauer
T0,5 Baresi
T1 Figueroa, Moore, Scirea
T1,5 Nesta, Kohler, Passarella, Sammer, Krol
Scirea is closer to Baresi than any of tier 1.5 IMO. Scirea kept young Baresi outside the NT, won everything at club and national level.
Passarella to me was never as good defensively as Scirea, Figueroa, Baresi and Moore were. He was one of the best at leaving the defensive line, but in pure defensive sense I'd easily place him in the tier below compared to those 5(along with Kaiser).
And Scirea was easily rated among the best players in history after he won that EC with Juve which was the cherry on top.
For example a quote from FF at the time(before his death):
But then due to his character he wasn't really one to grab all the highlights and players like that often go under the limelight, as Tardelli said long time ago:
T0 Beckenbauer
T0,5 Baresi
T1 Figueroa, Moore, Scirea
T1,5 Nesta, Kohler, Passarella, Sammer, Krol
Scirea is closer to Baresi than any of tier 1.5 IMO. Scirea kept young Baresi outside the NT, won everything at club and national level.
Passarella to me was never as good defensively as Scirea, Figueroa, Baresi and Moore were. He was one of the best at leaving the defensive line, but in pure defensive sense I'd easily place him in the tier below compared to those 5(along with Kaiser).
And Scirea was easily rated among the best players in history after he won that EC with Juve which was the cherry on top.
For example a quote from FF at the time(before his death):
But then due to his character he wasn't really one to grab all the highlights and players like that often go under the limelight, as Tardelli said long time ago:
Ferenc Puskas
The BD didn't exist for the Honved part of his career though
The BD didn't exist for the Honved part of his career though
My memory is a tad poor - but there was a season or 2 that Adrian0 was the best player in the world for Inter Milan - in my opinion he didn't get it because he was simply too young.
I think most of the FIFA WC Team of the Tournaments you see on wikipedia were done retrospectively. From the contemprorary literature I've seen Scirea's WCs were quite well regarded at the time - your overall point is correct though.
His best seasons overlapped with peak Ronaldinho, so he probably wasn't the best player in the world. It looked obvious that he would be in a few years, but then his dad died
His best seasons overlapped with peak Ronaldinho, so he probably wasn't the best player in the world. It looked obvious that he would be in a few years, but then his dad died
Ahh I forgot about Ronaldinho at the same time. Felt under Adrian0 that defense was a waste of time the way he would smack the ball from miles away.
Pretty much every top player in the last decade thanks to Messi and Ronaldo!
Adriano was a bit unlucky in that there were a lot of great Ballon D'Or nominations for that specific season...
- Ronaldinho didn't have the best year but he was close to his peak and producing some of the most magical moments in football since Fenômeno.
- Gerrard had led Liverpool to an unlikely European Cup title after 2 decades, and was a talisman throughout that campaign...starting with that Olympiacos goal.
- Lampard led the Premier League for assists for title-winning Chelsea and was great in Europe — with some landmark performances (like vs. Bayern).
- Maldini was consistently very good at age 37 and also had nostalgia working in his favor after Milan reached the Champions League final.
Did well to finish 7th, think it was fair because the Confederations Cup is not as big of a factor in voting and while he had some tremendous games for Internazionale, he finished 7th in the Serie A scorer charts — behind the likes of Gilardino, Montella, Vucinić and Lucarelli in 2004/05:
Also, he was kind of injured for Inter's most important game of the season (vs. Milan in the Champions League), and they got pasted 5-0 over 2 legs — that definitely cost him a few votes as well.
Perhaps this should be moved to football forum.
As for the thread, Scirea should've won it in 82. Rossi winning it then was a bit of a joke as he was banned for 2 years and played handful of matches to earn it. Scirea led the defence to a WC win and Seria A title.
Scirea didn't even have a better player ahead of him at the time as Kalle was the best European player in 82 and he didn't reach the heights he did the years before.
I love Krol, but his Ballon D'or nominations fell in time where there was a bit of a vacuum and Hans Krankl was genuine contender for it, compared to 1982 where you had Kalle, Breitner, young Platini, Giresse on the back of very good WC, etc.
Laudrup and Del Piero also could've won it in 95 and both deserved one in the early/mid 90's due to their body of work.
Del Piero was really underrated in 96 and 98 due to Italy bowing down early in 96 EURO and 98 WC. Had he been at the latter stages of those tournaments he'd have genuine shot at one, considering how highly rated he was at the time and how good that Juve side was.
Xavi should've won it in 09, but can understand of course Messi being the more appealing option as well as in 2010 where Messi had even better season and Xavi leading Spain to WC title.
Scirea didn't even have a better player ahead of him at the time as Kalle was the best European player in 82 and he didn't reach the heights he did the years before.
I love Krol, but his Ballon D'or nominations fell in time where there was a bit of a vacuum and Hans Krankl was genuine contender for it, compared to 1982 where you had Kalle, Breitner, young Platini, Giresse on the back of very good WC, etc.
Laudrup and Del Piero also could've won it in 95 and both deserved one in the early/mid 90's due to their body of work.
Del Piero was really underrated in 96 and 98 due to Italy bowing down early in 96 EURO and 98 WC. Had he been at the latter stages of those tournaments he'd have genuine shot at one, considering how highly rated he was at the time and how good that Juve side was.
Xavi should've won it in 09, but can understand of course Messi being the more appealing option as well as in 2010 where Messi had even better season and Xavi leading Spain to WC title.
I struggle to rank the sweepers and liberos, to be honest — there's a stark contrast in styles and skill sets and overall strengths and weaknesses. Beckenbauer is the greatest but Baresi was also clearly the greatest defensive sweeper/centerback — if you had to rate them on a graph, it would be probably by like so in a very rough sense...
Very close with Beckenbauer rated higher overall on the perpendicular, but Baresi having a lead in the defensive department. Of course, the whole thing is very rudimentary and paints a crude picture — maybe someone can make a 3-D gif with an added dimension (though even that wouldn't be enough). Similarly, from what I've seen Passarella was a dogged defender but tended to be undisciplined and error-prone at times, and a lot of the mystique around him is down to his rah-rah personality or offensive contributions — in purely defensive terms, I'd place him solidly on a tier below Scirea...who was more consistently reliable whilst offering an exquisite playmaking skill set but overall on a comparable tier, probably. Not to mention someone like Picchi was defensively superb and I'd have no hesitations placing him on a very high level when it comes to pure defensive nous as a conservative sweeper — not much between him and the conventional elites at the position. There are a lot of nuances that need to be reconciled within the broader sweeper/libero category, and I don't feel entirely comfortable comparing someone like say Moore with Sammer given all the difference between them.
Very close with Beckenbauer rated higher overall on the perpendicular, but Baresi having a lead in the defensive department. Of course, the whole thing is very rudimentary and paints a crude picture — maybe someone can make a 3-D gif with an added dimension (though even that wouldn't be enough). Similarly, from what I've seen Passarella was a dogged defender but tended to be undisciplined and error-prone at times, and a lot of the mystique around him is down to his rah-rah personality or offensive contributions — in purely defensive terms, I'd place him solidly on a tier below Scirea...who was more consistently reliable whilst offering an exquisite playmaking skill set but overall on a comparable tier, probably. Not to mention someone like Picchi was defensively superb and I'd have no hesitations placing him on a very high level when it comes to pure defensive nous as a conservative sweeper — not much between him and the conventional elites at the position. There are a lot of nuances that need to be reconciled within the broader sweeper/libero category, and I don't feel entirely comfortable comparing someone like say Moore with Sammer given all the difference between them.
Perhaps the most important thing to establish is Onopko being the most underrated
Passarella is sooo underrated, it's not even funny anymore. There is no way he should be on the same level as Sammer, he is both the superior defender and the superior goalscorer.
He is practically the GOAT level version of Sergio Ramos and no one wants to give Ramos his fair credit as the most successful defender ever due to his defensive weaknesses shown somehow. Passarella is much better defensively and a better goalscorer on top, yet his offensive contributions are perceived as a weakness or "not worthy" to lift him above other sweepers. When you have two sweepers who are very close in defensive terms and one contributes to hundreds of goals in his career, there is just no way how you can explain to put the other guy much above him. Goals decide games, but somehow that aspect is always ignored when Passarella is discussed.
One thing that contributes to this is that in Draft matches no one ever talks about set pieces, yet set pieces have always been among the most common ways of scoring goals. If those would be factored in fairly, having Passarella in your side makes you instantly the superior side on set pieces. The same with guys like Koeman, Hierro etc. Those are perceived as potential weakness and some guy may praise their ball-playing ability, but they are completely disregarded as goalscorers.
He is practically the GOAT level version of Sergio Ramos and no one wants to give Ramos his fair credit as the most successful defender ever due to his defensive weaknesses shown somehow. Passarella is much better defensively and a better goalscorer on top, yet his offensive contributions are perceived as a weakness or "not worthy" to lift him above other sweepers. When you have two sweepers who are very close in defensive terms and one contributes to hundreds of goals in his career, there is just no way how you can explain to put the other guy much above him. Goals decide games, but somehow that aspect is always ignored when Passarella is discussed.
One thing that contributes to this is that in Draft matches no one ever talks about set pieces, yet set pieces have always been among the most common ways of scoring goals. If those would be factored in fairly, having Passarella in your side makes you instantly the superior side on set pieces. The same with guys like Koeman, Hierro etc. Those are perceived as potential weakness and some guy may praise their ball-playing ability, but they are completely disregarded as goalscorers.
The best part about that is that we're talking about sweepers, beckenbauer is almost unanimously considered the best ever, and he was by far the worst of them defensively
He's better than Passarella that's for sure IMO. The reason he's considered the best defensive player is the overall contribution and the leadership qualities, that no doubt the others also had, but Beckenbauer was something else.The best part about that is that we're talking about sweepers, beckenbauer is almost unanimously considered the best ever, and he was by far the worst of them defensively
He stood out in an era where there were a lot of great players and his effect on the game is what sets him apart and what sets greats like Cruyff apart.
No way was Beckenbauer a better defender than Passarella. He was of course the best player out of all of them. But not because he was a great defender, which he wasn't. Passarella was imho, though not as good at it as some of the others either. Dominant in the air though
Disagree here. Obviously I rate Sammer a lot and many would not share the same vision with me, but Sammer was a fantastic defender. No doubt he gained his fame due to his forays forward, but in many games, even at the 96 EURO he rarely crossed the halfway line and excelled in a role that organized the defence and won the tournament being by far the most important player for Germany, not only for building a rock solid foundation, but also deciding games in attack when needed.
Passarella all things considered was better going forward, and especially in the air, but Sammer's reading of the game was really supreme. A good testimony of that is that Dortmund team completely falling apart when he retired (at very early age as well for a defender) and winning the title as a manager a year later - one of the youngest ever to do so in fact.
Sammer's peak, as short it was, was really phenomenal for a defender. You had literally very few who would contest him winning the Ballon D'or as a defender(and it's not like he didn't have a certain phenomenon to compete with) at the time and wasn't only based on a single tournament like Cannavaro, but engineered 2 back to back BL titles for Dortmund and a CL title the year later. If his knee held up he'd easily be talked in the same breath as Beckenbauer, Baresi, Scirea, etc as one of the greatest defenders in history and he also had the character for it.
I disagree on having Passarella better defender than Sammer. Passarella, as Invictus mentioned, often lacked the discipline and leaved huge gaps at the back, whilst also suffered lapses of concentration moreso than the other mentioned. I'd have Sammer, Passarella and Krol in the same tier.
Raul, Owen winning it over him was such bullshit.
Passarella played in a River side that shipped a ton of goals mate. They usually outscored the opposition and games where they would concede 3-4 goals weren't that scarce.
He was dominant in the air but by far the most gung ho in that group. He was also cack in 82 where the Argies were really disappointing both in defence and attack and not really at his best in 86' where Argentina won their second WC.
Passarella was probably the best going forward, but better defender than Beckenbauer is a stretch. Passarella would often commit a cynical foul or lunge into tackle, he also was a bit on the slow side and couldn't recover as good as Baresi, Scirea, Figueroa or Beckenbauer himself. He wasn't the elegant type of defender like Nesta or Baresi to take the ball off the opponent without often committing a foul.
Having Passarella really limits your options when building a back four, You need a tucked in LB, another classic stopper next to him and so forth. He didn't drive the ball forward like Sammer or Beckenbauer did, but rather kept it simple and rushed forward to meet a cross.
Sammer was fortunate to be of that era where he was able to play with a unified Germany, he would have been unlikely to avoid obscurity had he played solely for East Germany. A great player, though i was surprised how little he contributed to Dortmund's CL win when i eventually watched their full campaign. A good final performance, but before that he didn't do much...... played 3 games in the group stage against Widzew Lodz and Steaua where Dortmund were sloppy defensively and conceded 6 goals and then until the final only played in the 2nd leg against Auxerre where Dortmund already had a 3-1 lead.
Can you back that statement up?The best part about that is that we're talking about sweepers, beckenbauer is almost unanimously considered the best ever, and he was by far the worst of them defensively
The dude was equal to Bobby Charlton as a pure DM in 1966 and I find it funny to think he was weaker as a CB.
Scirea was sandwiched by Gentile to counter attacking Cabrini. Picchi had Burgnich to counter for Cabrini. Beckenbauer had Vogts to counter for Breitner. Parallels everywhere and at least the Italians had the advantage of catenaccio.
Beckenbauer was a solid defender who was also great offensively. Baresi was a genius defender who was good offensively.
Last edited:
Why? He and maybe Figueroa were the only ones who didn't play with another stellar defender in their defensive lineup. Or in a defensive set up. Tarantini was as good as he got and that was enough. I wouldn't mind him in a back 4 with Evra for instance.
I don't really associate Passarella with a great defensive performance like Baresi on Van Basten or Romario or Figueroa against Gerd Muller.
Scirea formed one of the best defensive units in history which rarely conceded, whilst Passarella was different to them and not as good as them in the defensive phase.
If we consider that as a focal point then Chumpitaz should be rated just as high as he was often surrounded by clowns.
At the end of the day, it depends on what you want your defender to do. If you want hard tackles and tenacity, Passarella is your man. The likes of Beckenbauer and Scirea relied more on positioning and their understanding of the game to defend. Not saying that's a bad thing, it's all about how you rate defenders.
Passarella is also probably the best attacker on the list and I think he's one of the most prolific goalscoring defenders of all time. Joining in attacks is a big part of what makes a good libero IMO and he's one of the best at that.
Bernd Schuster, voted 2nd twice, and 3rd once
Hector was one of the best South American defenders around, not necessarily the best of the lot. For me, Baresi always had Maldini, Costacurta and Tassotti as his partners and played in a defensive league.Not that it takes away from anything of his performance, but that influence is still there. He was the leader of a even otherwise elite defensive unit. Same for Scirea and Picchi. That is why I give some preference to non Italian defenders who are great. Makes it a bit more special in my personal opinion.
Anyway, we digress...my point was on Passarella without a defensive LB still being good and I see no reason to believe otherwise. In 1978 they just conceded 4 goals in all tournament, which is pretty good imo.
Owen Peak > Raul Peak
Passarella being the best attacker is fair. He was the most lethal in the box, although if we're going with the best player that actively participates in the attacking phase that's Beckenbauer.
I always rate positioning and reading of the game more compared to the more combating style. I find it odd that Passarella is that highly rated, yet someone like Lucio often underrated in drafts due to his forays and leaving holes in defence, but I guess it has to do with being more of a modern defender getting more scrutiny than some of the oldies.
Still I don't think Passarella would work with someone like Evra or a full back that won't stretch the field in attack.
I wouldn't base his contribution solely on one tournament as well. In 1978 Brazil only conceded one goal and their defence was nothing special.
Sure Scirea and Baresi had top class defensive units, Beckenbauer also for that matter, but they broke records defensively and set the standard for years to come.
He was, mainly because he wasn't a CB at all. And didn't particularly play like one either.
As for backing up that statement, he was a worse defender than the others, who were all either great or at least very good defenders, while as you yourself pointed out, Beckenbauer was merely a solid defender.
You clearly never seen peak Raul, one of greatest strikers ever.
He was both midfielder and defender in his career. However, all of the major trophies he won - the World Cup, the Euros, the 3 European Cups and the ECWC - were won with him playing in defence.
I know. But he was never an actual defender, rather a midfielder who happened to play as a defender. Same deal as Mascherano at Barcelona.
Not really. During his youth he started off as a forward/left winger, but most of his professional career he was a defender. For initial years, Willi Schulz another great German libero was in his prime, so that meant Beckenbauer had to play in midfield for country, but for club he still was a defender/halfback.
1966 DFB Pokal when he was 21 yo.:
1967 DFB Pokal when he was 22 yo:
@Edgar Allan Pillow Is that the Hans Georg Schwarzenbeck at left-back?
Edit: For those interested Mascherno moved to Barca at 26. Not sure when he switched to CB but he moved at earliest at 26
Edit: For those interested Mascherno moved to Barca at 26. Not sure when he switched to CB but he moved at earliest at 26
Yes, it was.
Henry should have won it in one of his peak seasons.
I actually forgot I'd made that initial Scirea vs Passarella vs Krol post as I was several beers deep at the time. A slow burner but it led to some good discussion in the end.