The 'Awful Squad' Brigade

Sarni

nice guy, unassuming, objective United fan.
Joined
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Just feck off.

This is the same squad that won the league at a canter last season strengthened with two players who excelled in the league last season, for significant fees too. Now I know one of them couldn't play yesterday but we had an adequate replacement in Kagawa.

The amount of attacking talent we have is impressive. The likes of Kagawa, Mata, Januzaj, Rooney and van Persie would be starters for most top sides across Europe. We have some very talented defenders in Jones, Smalling and Evans, and Vidic can still play the game.

Fellaini isn't that bad either. I've slagged him a lot this season but he's still a very good midfielder who can play a part. Carrick has been awful but he's not a bad player either. Even a player like Cleverley could look half decent on his day if you can get him motivated instead of absolutely batshit frightened.

And the ageing argument doesn't stand for me either. It's just a lazy excuse when in reality Carrick is the only player who has been crucial for us for years and seems to have gone backwards significantly. One player in an 11-men team.

De Gea
Rafael Jones Smalling/Evans Evra
Fellaini Carrick
Januzaj Rooney Mata
van Persie

Only 3 players over 30 there, and Evra is the only one you couldn't replace with a much younger one. The rest are either young or very young.

Of course it's going to look awful if you leave your best winger at home and leave one of your best European performers on the bench in favour of two players who have done feck all for the past 6 months (especially Valencia).

People expecting Moyes to rebuild the team... How is he supposed to do that when he consistently plays some of our worst performers?

This isn't a bad team at all. They might look lost but that's not because they're bad at football.
 
Aye, there's so many in the media insisting 'Moyes has a massive rebuild on his hands' because they won't admit he's just terrible manager who's destroying a fine squad. If he forces out any more of our talented younger players so he can recklessly spend a fortune replacing them with mercenaries then I don't think I'll be going to any matches next season.
 
There are issues, no doubt, but we have one of the best goalkeepers in the world, one of the best front-fours in the world, one of the best young right-backs out there, a more than adequate left-back and a decent defense. Even with a well below-par midfield, that should be more than enough as a foundation.

When you read columns after our games, it's striking how most pundits don't even mention Moyes. All the focus is on the players. It's weird.
 
Chabon said:
Aye, there's so many in the media insisting 'Moyes has a massive rebuild on his hands' because they won't admit he's just terrible manager who's destroying a fine squad. If he forces out any more of our talented younger players so he can recklessly spend a fortune replacing them with mercenaries then I don't think I'll be going to any matches next season.
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Massive rebuild indeed, we have four very good defenders in their early or mid-20s (Rafael, Jones, Evans, Smalling), a very young goalkeeper who could play for us for a decade (but will likely leave in 2-3 years if we keep underperforming), an array of attacking midfielders either approaching their prime or having plenty of steam left (Kagawa, Januzaj, Mata, perhaps Zaha if he can come back and play) and one of the best selections of forwards we've ever had.

Add two decent midfielders in their prime to this team and you have one of the best teams in the world. Even Fellaini is capable of far more than he's shown and could be a decent option.

Adding two or three players isn't massive rebuild. Add two decent midfielders and Coentrao to this team and you're an idiot if you cannot get them challenging for trophies.
 
Most people dont really believe in it. If you check 99% of these peoples post about our squad and expectations before this season after Moyes was appointed you see them all claiming he is inheriting a title winning squad which challenged for the CL and he should continue on those lines.
 
Are you seriously telling me the manager has instructed players to be unable to pass to a teammate, loose concentration, not show for the ball and generally act like a bunch if cowards? Last season means nothing, too many have decided they don't like the new manager and are using him as a scapegoat for some TRUELY dire performances. Moyes is far from blameless, he has made some massive mistakes, but the whole point of being a team is to band together and try and help each other through difficult times, anything else is just unprofessional and childish. The manager needs the players help, not backstabbing bitching and undermining, this season everybody from woody downwards needs to take a long hard look at themselves and that includes the players
 
Disagree. This is a team with serious weaknesses. Of the hypothetical team picked in the OP we'd need to look at improving on Carrick, Fellaini, Evra, Evans and whichever of Jones/Smalling are picked beside him. That's before we even get into the quality of the players backing them up.

For some reason the majority of the caf wants to blame either the players or Moyes when in fact both are at fault. Moyes should go, certainly, but that doesn't make this team acceptable either.
 
And we don't even need world class midfielders. We'd if we didn't have players like Rooney, Kagawa, Januzaj and Mata who are creative enough to take the ball forward and do something with it, or some very good defenders capable of holding the back line together (even if some are still inexperienced), as well as Fellaini who can well protect the defence. A decent midfielders who can pass the ball a few yards and has enough awareness not to drop it would be just about enough - someone like Cabaye, Rakitic etc. would suffice.
 
The squad have to take some of the blame but the vast majority falls at a David Moyes feet.
The team are lacking a leader both on and off the pitch, we are pathetic at the moment, just pathetic. I'm still angry about last nights performance, no direction, no belief, no desire, clueless tactics from a clueless manager. One shot on fecking target and that came in the 89th minute.
The squad is good enough, but they need a manager who can match their ambitions.
 
There's not much wrong with our first team its the squad players who aren't capable. Last night Moyes could have used Adnan and Kagawa instead but it still doesn't solve Cleverleys incompetence and Smalling having to play at right back.

The caf has spent the last 3 seasons slagging half the team off. Now when they're exposed and predictably disappoint they're protected for some reason.

There's plenty of things to criticize the players for just as there is the manager. Its not as simple as blaming it on one man just because you want it to be.

Cleverley isn't good enough for the top games, Rafael has no back up, Evra is a liability, Valencia isn't good enough, Ferdinand is done, We need a big midfield signing.

All those issues were here last year and have cost us a lot of games this season. Moyes hasn't created those problems but he's not bloody fixed them either.

If he fixes them in the summer then. I'm happy for him to stay.
 
Sparky_Hughes said:
Are you seriously telling me the manager has instructed players to be unable to pass to a teammate, loose concentration, not show for the ball and generally act like a bunch if cowards? Last season means nothing, too many have decided they don't like the new manager and are using him as a scapegoat for some TRUELY dire performances. Moyes is far from blameless, he has made some massive mistakes, but the whole point of being a team is to band together and try and help each other through difficult times, anything else is just unprofessional and childish. The manager needs the players help, not backstabbing bitching and undermining, this season everybody from woody downwards needs to take a long hard look at themselves and that includes the players
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And whose fault is this that they cannot be arsed? It's manager's job to motivate the players and get them to play at their best, somehow plenty of managers across the world manage to do just that. It's exactly manager's job to get his team to perform at their best, look at how Mourinho is getting the best out of this Chelsea team that looks fairly ordinary or Rodgers makes a decent Liverpool team challenging for the league because they somehow play as a unit!

Picking players who haven't performed for several months ahead of our best performers doesn't help either.
 
You hear that a lot, mostly from those outside the club looking in, Sir Alex was a great manager but hes not a miracle worker, the same set of players were on pace to set a record premier league points tally last year before going on holiday with several games to spare.
Even if you prescribe to the fact "The squad isn't good enough" theory, and say we have less talent than Chelsea, City etc which could be a fair point, we're still not the 7th talented squad in the premier league as our results and position suggest, neither is the squad of internationals so bad that we should be losing every other game to the likes of Stoke, Sunderland, Swansea, Newcastle, West Brom, Olympiacos etc.

As for the age issue, the only 3 players when Sir Alex left past 30 that we relied upon were Vidic, Evra and Carrick, I'm not having this trash that Sir Alex left a junk squad for Moyes to inherit, Moyes isn't doing enough with the players he's got, simple as that.
 
sullydnl said:
Disagree. This is a team with serious weaknesses. Of the hypothetical team picked in the OP we'd need to look at improving on Carrick, Fellaini, Evra, Evans and whichever of Jones/Smalling are picked beside him. That's before we even get into the quality of the players backing them up.

For some reason the majority of the caf wants to blame either the players or Moyes when in fact both are at fault. Moyes should go, certainly, but that doesn't make this team acceptable either.
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All teams have weaknesses. If you're good at your job you could overcome them by expressing your strengths.
 
Sarni said:
And whose fault is this that they cannot be arsed? It's manager's job to motivate the players and get them to play at their best, somehow plenty of managers across the world manage to do just that. It's exactly manager's job to get his team to perform at their best, look at how Mourinho is getting the best out of this Chelsea team that looks fairly ordinary or Rodgers makes a decent Liverpool team challenging for the league because they somehow play as a unit!

Picking players who haven't performed for several months ahead of our best performers doesn't help either.
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To a degree but if players don't have an inbuilt desire and will to win then they aren't fit to be utd players.
 
sullydnl said:
Disagree. This is a team with serious weaknesses. Of the hypothetical team picked in the OP we'd need to look at improving on Carrick, Fellaini, Evra, Evans and whichever of Jones/Smalling are picked beside him. That's before we even get into the quality of the players backing them up.

For some reason the majority of the caf wants to blame either the players or Moyes when in fact both are at fault. Moyes should go, certainly, but that doesn't make this team acceptable either.
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This. Thank you.
 
BennyBlanco said:
You hear that a lot, mostly from those outside the club looking in, Sir Alex was a great manager but hes not a miracle worker, the same set of players were on pace to set a record premier league points tally last year before going on holiday with several games to spare.
Even if you perscribe to the fact "The squad isn't good enough" theory, and say we have less talent than Chelsea, City etc which could be a fair point, we're still not the 7th talented squad in the premier league as our results and position suggest, neither is the squad of internationals so bad that we should be losing every other game to the likes of Stoke, Sunderland, West Brom, Olympiacos etc.

As for the age issue, the only 3 players when Sir Alex left past 30 that we relied upon were Vidic, Evra and Carrick, I'm not having this trash that Sir Alex left a junk squad for Moyes to inherit, Moyes isn't doing enough with the players he's got, simple as that.
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A manager like Ferguson could be worth extra 10-12 points. There's no way that if situations were reversed and Ferguson took over a side that was 7th in the league - say Everton, Southampton or Newcastle - he'd have made them title challengers. Likewise there's no reason why any manager should take a title winning team and have them playing this bad.
 
Sarni said:
Just feck off.

This is the same squad that won the league at a canter last season strengthened with two players who excelled in the league last season, for significant fees too. Now I know one of them couldn't play yesterday but we had an adequate replacement in Kagawa.

The amount of attacking talent we have is impressive. The likes of Kagawa, Mata, Januzaj, Rooney and van Persie would be starters for most top sides across Europe. We have some very talented defenders in Jones, Smalling and Evans, and Vidic can still play the game.

Fellaini isn't that bad either. I've slagged him a lot this season but he's still a very good midfielder who can play a part. Carrick has been awful but he's not a bad player either. Even a player like Cleverley could look half decent on his day if you can get him motivated instead of absolutely batshit frightened.

And the ageing argument doesn't stand for me either. It's just a lazy excuse when in reality Carrick is the only player who has been crucial for us for years and seems to have gone backwards significantly. One player in an 11-men team.

De Gea
Rafael Jones Smalling/Evans Evra
Fellaini Carrick
Januzaj Rooney Mata
van Persie

Only 3 players over 30 there, and Evra is the only one you couldn't replace with a much younger one. The rest are either young or very young.

Of course it's going to look awful if you leave your best winger at home and leave one of your best European performers on the bench in favour of two players who have done feck all for the past 6 months (especially Valencia).

People expecting Moyes to rebuild the team... How is he supposed to do that when he consistently plays some of our worst performers?

This isn't a bad team at all. They might look lost but that's not because they're bad at football.
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That team would be great if he actually played it regularly.
 
Sparky_Hughes said:
Are you seriously telling me the manager has instructed players to be unable to pass to a teammate, loose concentration, not show for the ball and generally act like a bunch if cowards? Last season means nothing, too many have decided they don't like the new manager and are using him as a scapegoat for some TRUELY dire performances. Moyes is far from blameless, he has made some massive mistakes, but the whole point of being a team is to band together and try and help each other through difficult times, anything else is just unprofessional and childish. The manager needs the players help, not backstabbing bitching and undermining, this season everybody from woody downwards needs to take a long hard look at themselves and that includes the players
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The players must take a part of the blame but are you really saying the squad is only good enough to be where it is in the league and being beaten 2-0 by Olympiakos? Managers like Martinez, Rodgers etc have worse squads playing much better football and in Rodgers case getting great results too. Have our players suddenly decided they dont give a feck? I dont think so.
 
The reality is that we're going to replace, at most, four or five players this summer. That means that around 20 of the current first team squad will remain.

Moyes has to find a way to motivate and coach the players still available to him, to find a formation that they are comfy with and brings the best out of them. Saying that they're all past it and have to be replaced is simply a fairytale.
 
Sparky_Hughes said:
To a degree but if players don't have an inbuilt desire and will to win then they aren't fit to be utd players.
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They had it for years, didn't they? The only time when we looked pretty flat was 2011-12 but we more than made that up last season. The team, while lacking quality in obvious areas, managed to come back so many times last year and would have knocked Mourinho's Madrid out of the Champions League if it hadn't been for Nani's red card.

Most of these players are winners. Some must still have hunger for trophies in them.
 
It's more to do with the lack of style of play, tactics, confidence and players knowing what the heck their roles are. Right now, it is all a bit non existent. Therefore, the blame should be first and foremost on the manager and the coaching staff
 
Of course players need to pull themselves together because hardly any of them have been at their best this season. Is Moyes the man to get the best out of them though? You cannot possibly say that we should just get rid of them and replace them with new players because the exact same problem might still be present and what do you do then? You're a couple hundred million poorer with nowhere to go.
 
Sarni said:
They had it for years, didn't they? The only time when we looked pretty flat was 2011-12 but we more than made that up last season. The team, while lacking quality in obvious areas, managed to come back so many times last year and would have knocked Mourinho's Madrid out of the Champions League if it hadn't been for Nani's red card.

Most of these players are winners. Some must still have hunger for trophies in them.
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Were winners, had hunger, these are not infinite qualities and too many are resting on their laurels and past achievements.
 
Smores said:
The caf has spent the last 3 seasons slagging half the team off. Now when they're exposed and predictably disappoint they're protected for some reason.
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That theory cuts both ways: there was always a group who would sniff from their high horses in threads where the players got stick, pointing out to them that this rubbish squad was leading the PL by x many points.

Now they are turning it around and emphasize the squad's weaknesses to support a nothing manager.
 
Well said Sarni. It's not a perfect squad and it certainly has it's flaws but it's far, far better than this. In reality it's probably not a title winning squad without the great Fergie here but it's comfortably one that should challenge for it and not get knocked out of every cup before we can even get going.

People use our squad as an excuse for Moyes awful performance as our manager so fault, and it needs to stop, if anything it's causing the players to lose confidence in themselves, as shown last night.
 
Meh, we won the league last season only because Chelsea/City were shit and this year all four (five or six) teams have improved so it is normal that we are in this position. Nobody would have been doing better than Moyes.

Players should get embarrased for letting the manager, the fans and the club down. These performances from them have been pathetic. We should replace every single one of them and get new players for Moyes. Only then we can judge him. It is a good thing that this is exactly what will happen because people who make this decisions (Sir Alex and Sir Bobby) have more brain cells than all 'Caf geniuses' combined.

Remember, when it will be 21, it is David Moyes. Until then you gloryhunters can go and support City or Chelsea.
 
I would prefer not to even talk about last nights performance from the Team who looked like a bunch of disinterested chaps running around on a pitch. That certainly is not THE UNITED way, no fight, desire, commitment to deliver any decent performance.
 
Sparky_Hughes said:
To a degree but if players don't have an inbuilt desire and will to win then they aren't fit to be utd players.
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So they suddenly went from being professionals who wanted to win every bloody game to not having a desire to win in 1 season? So many of them at one go? Surely you see that cant be true?

Sir Alex is on record saying his team doesnt give up till the whistle, they believe they can win from every situation. These are the same players who you think lack the inbuilt desire to win.

Truth is, talent and desire to win isnt always enough as our season has shown. Tactics and setup play a huge role. The mindset the manager passes on to the squad too. If you were a United player and saw both Valencia and Young starting in a game vs Olympiakos while the likes of Kagawa and Januzaj sit on the bench, what impression would you get? What impression would you get when your manager blames everything from luck to having a go at some wild conspiracy theory from the FA as reasons for the disappointing league position?
 
I think the fact that he has said he wants to replace a lot of the players has alienated a majority of the team. They are playing with no confidence. Some know for certain they are going and others are worrying that they might be. If he thought it would give them a kick up the backside it has backfired big time. They have gone from SAF bigging them up to Moyes saying they are rubbish. It was bound to have a detrimental effect on the team.
 
Sarni said:
All teams have weaknesses. If you're good at your job you could overcome them by expressing your strengths.
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Agree, that's what SAF did last season. That was still one of the least impressive title winning sides I've seen, massively dependent on RvP and Carrick.

If we're aiming to be the best in Europe (and we should be) then Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Giggs, Fellaini, Carrick, Cleverley, Evans, Young, Valencia and Nani is too much (relative) dross to carry. A few of those players in the squad is fine but that many?

A top manager would get more out of this squad but why should they have to? You say in another post that we don't need top class midfielders but why the hell should we settle for that?

I'd use our last CL winning side as the template for the level we're striving for. We're some way away from that standard and it's not like that team was perfect either.
 
Varun_Utd said:
The players must take a part of the blame but are you really saying the squad is only good enough to be where it is in the league and being beaten 2-0 by Olympiakos? Managers like Martinez, Rodgers etc have worse squads playing much better football and in Rodgers case getting great results too. Have our players suddenly decided they dont give a feck? I dont think so.
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No they should be higher up the table, around fourth/third in my opinion and I'm not sure moyes is the right man for the job anymore after backing him all season but the way that the players are just passing the buck is unacceptable. I'm reminded of something keane said in his book, something along the lines of too many players are coasting, thinking don't worry, scholesy will rescue us, or seba will pull something out of the bag instead of making things happen. That is what we are seeing now, not enough players prepared to take some responsibility and get stuck in, if moyes were to get the boot now I'd have no complaints but more than a few of this squad have shown their true colours as a bunch of spoiled prima donnas and who ever the manager is there needs to be a clear out. Saf shipped out ince sparky and kanchelskis because he realised things were on the slide despite all of them being part of a double winning side only weeks before, I'll say it again, last season means nothing
 
Revan said:
Meh, we won the league last season only because Chelsea/City were shit and this year all four (five or six) teams have improved so it is normal that we are in this position. Nobody would have been doing better than Moyes.

Players should get embarrased for letting the manager, the fans and the club down. These performances from them have been pathetic. We should replace every single one of them and get new players for Moyes. Only then we can judge him. It is a good thing that this is exactly what will happen because people who make this decisions (Sir Alex and Sir Bobby) have more brain cells than all 'Caf geniuses' combined.

Remember, when it will be 21, it is David Moyes. Until then you gloryhunters can go and support City or Chelsea.
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I cannot decide if you're WUMming or not.

89 points last year, only 9 of them against City and Chelsea. 80 would still have us around top if not champions this year.
 
To use Basketball/Baseball/American terminology, what do you guys think the "Estimated Wins Added" numbers would be(this season) for this lot? EWA: the estimated number of wins a player adds to a team’s season total above what a 'replacement player' would produce.

Buttner
Rio
Vidic
Giggs
Valencia
Young
Anderson
Nani
Bebe
Evra
Macheda
Lindegaard
Kagawa
Cleverley
Hernandez

I'd suggest they're likely fairly low. Suggesting that they could be effectively replaced.

Perhaps Kagawa, Hernandez and Vidic are in the positives, but not by a lot.
 
sullydnl said:
Agree, that's what SAF did last season. That was still one of the least impressive title winning sides I've seen, massively dependent on RvP and Carrick.

If we're aiming to be the best in Europe (and we should be) then Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Giggs, Fellaini, Carrick, Cleverley, Evans, Young, Valencia and Nani is too much (relative) dross to carry. A few of those players in the squad is fine but that many?

A top manager would get more out of this squad but why should they have to? You say in another post that we don't need top class midfielders but why the hell should we settle for that?

I'd use our last CL winning side as the template for the level we're striving for. We're some way away from that standard and it's not like that team was perfect either.
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I don't expect us to win the league or CL with the current team without Fergie. We are so far behind the likes of Bayern or Real Madrid it's silly to suggest that we should be winning CL.

I'd have thought it'd be comfortably top 4 and beating teams like Olympiakos (who are good but not top class) mind.
 
Anytime I hear anyone say he was left with a poor squad I just remind myself of the shambolic summer transfer window when any other manager would have brought in quality and strengthened the squad (instead of just trying to sign a couple of his old pals). He has to take some responsibility for the squad we have. And despite terrible results and our inability to not create anything he doesn't try anything new, its the same old formations and the same dependency on Young/Valencia down the wings.
 
I think we need:-
1. Back up RB
2. LB and backup LB(Buttner not good enough)
3. Another CB to give us 4 CB's with Smalling, Evans and Jones.
4. 2 midfielders at least
5. Another striker as Hernandez will want out and god knows about RVP.

This is going to cost some serious money to buy the players to make us competitive again. The big point is does Moyes have the attraction for players to want to join his revolution? Is the name of Manchester United enough to attract them?
 
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