The Americas Draft, R1: Maz/Mar/R vs Aldo 7-7

Considering players at their peak, who will win the match?

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
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Oct 19, 2012
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TEAM MAZ/MAR/R

Maz/Mar/R's Opening Write-Up
  • Main approach: outrun the opposition and cover more ground than them. Tire them out and punish their mistakes with our fluidity and variety of attacking approaches.
  • Defensive line: medium-deep (i.e. not parking the bus)
  • Attacking approach: stretch the field by getting the ball out wide and creating spaces in the middle for the danger men. Try to get Sanchez through on goal as often as possible, and force the defenders to focus on him.
Our team is a great blend of hard work, consistency, skill, and flair. All over the park, we have players who will pull out victories from the worst of situations as well as silky players who will bamboozle the opposition with their exquisite skill and ability on the ball. The main attribute of our team, however, is the leadership and work ethic instilled in most of our players. They will fight for the team and make sure that nothing stops them along the way, and this battling spirit instilled in our team will be too much for Aldo's team to handle.

Burruchaga, Goncalves, and Zagallo will work their socks off to win the ball and cover as much ground as possible, making sure that the opposition cannot threaten our defence that often. If, somehow, Aldo's attack does breach our midfield, then we have a great stopper-sweeper central defensive pairing in Gamarra and Mauro Ramos. Gamarra's never-say-die attitude and anticipation will ensure that none of Aldo's attacking players will ever get a chance to have a clear shot on goal. Combine that with Mauro Ramos' calm, composed style of defending that wasn't seen since in Brazil since Domingos da Guia played for them, and you have a back pairing that will make it tough for Aldo's team to have chances on goal. Marzolini-Nelinho is also quite complementary in itself, with Nelinho looking to bomb forward whenever possible whilst Marzolini will play a more reserved role, aiding the defence in moving the ball forward and playing it to our danger men.

If, somehow, Aldo's team does get a chance on goal, I know I'm safe with Bravo in goal with his large frame covering much of the goal and his reflexes and astute positioning making it tough for any shots on target to become goals.

In midfield, Didi has an ideal partner in Tito Goncalves. Tito will be more of a deep-lying midfielder, giving Didi the platform to play a more expansive, attacking game. If Didi is to get closed down, then Tito's vision and passing accuracy will allow him to play the ball forward to the runners/danger men waiting in space. On the ball, neither player will unnecessarily try to rush the game; both will slow down the game if necessary in order to ensure that we keep control of the game. Defensively, both will contribute, with Tito being more tenacious whilst Didi covers the spaces and tries to win the ball without entering physical battles.

In attack, the intelligence and athleticism of Burruchaga, Zagallo, Ghiggia, and Sanchez will keep Passarella and co. on their toes. Ghiggia, whilst he was a more creative player, has an accurate shot on him that can creep into the near post if Goycochea isn't paying attention. Ghiggia cutting inside will also allow Nelinho to come forward and overload the right side, creating more space for Didi to have an influence with. Ghiggia's crossing and deliveries will also be ideal for our main goalscorer in Hugo Sanchez who's given the perfect platform to play his usual game with Burruchaga behind him. Burruchaga, with his well-refined ability on the ball combined with his movement and energy, will do all he can to get into spaces and work for the team in opening up the defence, worrying Aldo's backline some more on whether to keep an eye on Sanchez, Burruchaga, Ghiggia coming inside, or Zagallo drifting into the middle/making diagonal runs inside.

Off the ball, Zagallo and Burruchaga will be crucial in closing down and aiding the team defensively, making sure that we have enough bodies at the back to keep Aldo's final third tight and without any open spaces.

In summary, we have too much energy and fighting spirit for the opposition to overcome. Combine that with the silk in our players, and I don't see how Aldo can really overcome us.

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TEAM ALDO

Player Name - Player Position - Player Role
Sergio Goycochea - Goalkeeper - Defense
Daniel Passarella - Sweeper - Defense & Attack
Oscar Ruggeri - Stopper - Defense
William Martinez - Covering CB - Defense
Roberto Carlos - Left Wingback - Defense & Provide Width in Attack
Francisco Arce - Right Wingback - Defense & Provide Width in Attack
Javier Mascherano - Defensive Midfielder - Anchor & Drop into defense when needed
Freddy Rincon - Box to Box Midfielder - Defensive Cover & Attacking Forays
Angel Di Maria - Creative Attacking Midfielder - Forward Runs & Provide Width
Enzo Francescoli - Support Striker - Free Role
Leonidas - Center Forward - Complete Forward

- Deep Defensive Line
- Counter Attacking with pace and intesity Strategy
- Mascherano drops in when Passarella goes forward
- Di Maria and Rincon cover for attacking wingbacks
- Width from quality wingbacks and both CMs comfortable out wide
- Enzo pulls the strings in a free role behind the striker
- Incredible left sided attack of Carlos, Di Maria and Enzo
- Setup brings the best out of the likes of Passarella, Carlos, Di Maria
- Di Maria in his incredible CL winning season role
 
A quick word before I get back to work (I have a few minutes' worth of free time right now):

I'm surprised to see such a defensive approach from Aldo. No matter, it should help us get control of the match anyways.

I will never expect players like Di Maria or Rincon to cover for the wing backs as you say. First of all, Di Maria was a player who was very good at pressing from the front and preventing the ball from being played out by the opposition (he'd struggle to do that here as we have three good footballers in Mauro Ramos, Didi, and Tito Goncalves, all of whom are skilled on the ball and can pass the ball out of trouble). Therefore, I can't expect him to cover for Roberto Carlos when he would go forward. He doesn't possess that sort of discipline in his game (as we've seen in his time with us).

Rincon being fielded like he is in your team has 2 problems:
  1. Fielding a left-sided Rincon on the right
  2. Giving Rincon extra defensive responsibilities when he was more attack-minded naturally
Like with Di Maria-Bobby Carlos, I don't see how Rincon will cover for Arce. Your midfield already looks incompatible here. Compare this to our midfield, where everyone complements each other well. Plus, the Ramos-Didi-Zagallo backbone ensures that we have players who have a good understanding of each other's game. I don't see that level of understanding between your players (Di Maria-Masch, okay, but they didn't win any international competition together).

Giving Rincon and Di Maria extra defensive responsibilities is going to make it tougher for Francescoli to exert is influence, and it will allow us to keep your team out more effectively.
 
I didn't help with the team selection at all, in fact I maybe joined the private convo 3 maybe 4 times.

The team though is very good with an excellent balance on the flanks and a solid and extremely experienced spine.
 
Re Arce/Rincon. Arce could do a lot of his best attacking work from deep on the flank, almost like a Beckham from right-back, so the need for cover there is limited IMO. That said if the instruction is for him to push right up the flank, Rincon does have the wide experience to offer some cover. @mazhar13 I remember Rincon playing sometimes off the right.
 
Okay, I have my lunch break right now, so I can contribute some more.

Gio said:
Re Arce/Rincon. Arce could do a lot of his best attacking work from deep on the flank, almost like a Beckham from right-back, so the need for cover there is limited IMO. That said if the instruction is for him to push right up the flank, Rincon does have the wide experience to offer some cover. @mazhar13 I remember Rincon playing sometimes off the right.
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I remember some moments from Rincon on the right as well, but he was always a more attacking box-to-box player. Playing him in that sort of a role is like us playing Burruchaga behind Didi and telling him to cover for Ghiggia: that will never work! This sort of incompatibility will be Aldo's downfall, and our team is smart enough to punish this potential weakness in Aldo's team.
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Two excellent teams. Tough matchup, this!
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I'm surprised that you say that given Aldo's somewhat lopsided midfield setup. Expecting Di Maria and Rincon to effectively cover for the wing backs goes against their skill set and playing style. Contrast this to our team and midfield in particular:
  • Tito in his natural deep-lying defensive midfield role
  • Didi in his natural midfield playmaker role
  • Burruchaga as the free attacking player who'll press from the front and hassle the opposition as he did naturally (like Thomas Muller does for Germany)
It would be closer if Aldo had a more compatible midfield setup, but at this stage, with no subs allowed as well, I don't see how Aldo's team can really get control of the match let alone get a victory over us.

EDIT: My manager just came over and had a look over my shoulder. Luckily for me, she thought I was in some forum getting help over some work I was doing! Now you guys know why I'm not so active in the Caf during my work time.
 
mazhar13 said:
I'm surprised that you say that given Aldo's somewhat lopsided midfield setup. Expecting Di Maria and Rincon to effectively cover for the wing backs goes against their skill set and playing style.
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I don't understand this.

Why would a wingback in a 5 man defence need cover? It's not like Carlos or Acre are defensively so weak to need support. Carlos won a world cup in Back 5, CL in Back 4, so I doubt he'd need any cover here. With Valderrama orchestrating the game, Rincon used to right midfield making runs along right wing too.

You're forgetting Passarella and his contribution to the midfield here (not to mention scoring ability). I doubt Aldo will be at any disadvantage in midfield here.
 
Like Aldo's template much better for seeing what is meant to happen think I'll follow suit.

As for the match up 5 at the back should negate Sanchez to a degree as there should always be a minimum of 2 defenders around him at a time.

I don't agree with the wing backs needing too much support either especially Carlos who is up there with the best of full backs. Put him at wing back and he's in his best role. Ruggeri will cover him and although Di Maria won't track all the way back him occupying a wide position will still limit the attacking options down that flank.

On the other side I'm not as knowledgeable about Arce so don't feel comfortable to say if he'll deal with it as well.

Overall I'm leaning towards aldo but will refrain from voting for now until both managers have had a chance to comment.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I don't understand this.

Why would a wingback in a 5 man defence need cover? It's not like Carlos or Acre are defensively so weak to need support. Carlos won a world cup in Back 5, CL in Back 4, so I doubt he'd need any cover here. With Valderrama orchestrating the game, Rincon used to right midfield making runs along right wing too.

You're forgetting Passarella and his contribution to the midfield here (not to mention scoring ability). I doubt Aldo will be at any disadvantage in midfield here.
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I'm only responding to what Aldo set up for his tactics over here. He mentioned this specifically in his OP:
Chesterlestreet said:
- Di Maria and Rincon cover for attacking wingbacks
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Having said that, though, that's true, they aren't that defensively weak (I have my doubts over Arce, who was more renowned for what he offered going forward), but consider the fact that Roberto Carlos has to deal with Ghiggia and Nelinho both. According to Aldo's OP:
Chesterlestreet said:
- Deep Defensive Line
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This will allow us to get control of the possession and allow Nelinho to get forward as well to support Ghiggia.

Ghiggia himself was a tricky, speedy winger who turned over any defender that he faced. Bobby Carlos will have a tough time dealing with Ghiggia on his own; he'll need support.
In a team full of talent and tenacity in equal measures, featuring Odbulio Varela, Roque Maspoli and Juan Schiaffino, among others, Ghiggia was the shining star. Indeed, when newspaper El Observador once asked Schiaffino what had been the determining factor against the Brazilians, “Ghiggia”, came the reply. “He was brilliant, his play was decisive.” Uruguay played four matches in that World Cup and El Fantasma (The Ghost), as he has been dubbed in Brazil, scored in each one.

With his chiselled good looks, lothario’s moustache, long legs and robust torso, Ghiggia terrorised his markers with his trademark swerve, technique, speed and courage.

How will Bobby Carlos deal with that when Di Maria will be busy pressing my midfield? You'll have Ruggeri or Passarella coming to Aldo's left side to help out Bobby, and this will leave spaces for Burruchaga, Zagallo, or Didi to supply Sanchez or go for goal on their own. Didi himself was not bad at scoring goals from the midfield, scoring 6 in 19 with Real Madrid.
 
Gone for mazhar here, his flanks just about giving him the edge imo. That left flank is pretty damn great whilst the other ain't so shabby either. The key point being that Aldo relies quite heavily on his wing-backs to provide some thrust on the flanks (although di Maria & Francescoli are capable of helping out) but mazhar's wing duo counters that quite nicely as both were top notch tactical and industrious players off the ball. It's always a bummer when you play a back 5, possessing wing-backs and happen to come up against two really industrious wingers who are capable of putting a shift in and are also a threat on the ball (recall having D.Alves & R.Carlos as WBs and coming up against Camoranesi & Luis Enrique on the flanks :o). Not only that, the midfield duo of Didi-Goncalves is amongst the best in the draft and they complement each other exceptionally well. In Goncalves, you have one of the best DMs in the pool to square up against Francescoli who is pivotal to Aldo's team imo. Generally not a huge fan of Burruchaga but he does augment the midfield duo pretty well with his direct running and industry off the ball.

However, on the other hand mazhar's side does lack some goal threat with only Sanchez being a great goalscorer. Burruchaga had a decent record whilst Zagallo and Ghiggia are a decent threat at best - natural given that they are proper ol' school wingers and they bring other tangible qualities to the table like I've outlined in the first para. And Aldo does boast a pretty solid defense back there, marshalled by the best CB in the pool, although Sanchez was quite the forward at his peak. So part of me feels it could very well be a scoreless draw but I just felt mazhar had the wee bit of tactical edge here, so gone for him for now. Open to changing the vote depending on how discussions progress.
 
Joga Bonito said:
However, on the other hand mazhar's side does lack some goal threat with only Sanchez being a great goalscorer.
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Here's the thing, though: Hugo Sanchez became a great goalscorer by being the main focal point of the teams that he played for. For example, Real Madrid already had a great goalscorer in Butragueno, but even he had to make way for Sanchez and play a more altruistic role to bring the best out of him. That's why we started with Burruchaga: Burruchaga possesses that ideal altruistic personality as a forward that will bring the best out of Sanchez. Not only that, but his movement and dribbling will make him difficult to contain for the opposing defence who won't be sure whether to go after him or let the midfield take care of him.




The above two videos perfectly demonstrate what Burruchaga will be all about. His selfless yet cavalier attacking approach will make him the perfect foil for Hugo Sanchez, who can purely focus on playing his own natural game and doing what he does best: score lots of goals.

On top of that, ever since he moved out of Estudiantes Independiente, he's played as more of an attacking midfielder than a second striker, but he displayed his goalscoring prowess as a second striker with Estudiantes Independiente (53 in 146). Plus, he was the top scorer of the 1983 Copa America, so to say that I lack some goal threat is exaggerating things.
 
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On top of that, Hugo Sanchez has played against Ruggeri three times (twice against Logrones for Real Madrid during the 1988/89 season, and once against Argentina during the 1993 Copa America), and he scored twice against him.
 
I've read through this thread twice now and still can't decide. Kinda leaning towards Mazhar, i think he might have some success attacking Aldo's left side.
 
I think Zagallo and Ghiggia on the flanks certainly give us the edge here. Roberto Carlos will love to get forward at every opportunity and Di Maria isn't the sort of player who will cover at the back. On the occasions when Ghiggia does get in behind Carlos, Ruggeri will be the one to fall into a left back role and leaves space for Sanchez/Burruchaga to break into. Yes Passarella will be on hand but there will be times when our opposition is outnumbered.

Don't see anyone on Aldo's team being able to contain Didi for the whole game and he will pull the strings in the middle. Di Maria and Rincon are nowhere near effective enough to do that job and so its likely to fall to Mascherano which is a problem in itself as that then opens a space in the middle for Burruchaga to drop slightly deeper or for Zagallo to cut inside.

Burruchaga will effectively play the Laudrup role that worked so well with Sanchez at Madrid. And with Sanchez we have the best finisher on the pitch.

Good teams on both sides but I fancy us to get the win here.
 
Also can't see Francescoli getting much joy out of Goncalves. He'll be on him all game and that either means Leonidas is cutting a lonely figure by himself against our two CB's or he needs help, either from the wing backs or Di Maria pushing further forward.
 
This is very close. I can see Aldo shutting out MMR for a while but whether he can transition forwards and score is difficult since MMR's back four is pretty solid.

I think though if Nelinho gets forward R Carlos will have some joy down the left which could open it up for Aldo.

Still on the fence
 
Like both teams very much, probably the toughest match-up so far.

Di Maria's defensive contribution is significantly overrated - if we look at his last season at Madrid, for example. Of course, he was a primadonna with us and he still is the highest profile player in PSG but for Real his workrate and selfless off-the-ball movement was brilliant.
 
Physiocrat said:
This is very close. I can see Aldo shutting out MMR for a while but whether he can transition forwards and score is difficult since MMR's back four is pretty solid.

I think though if Nelinho gets forward R Carlos will have some joy down the left which could open it up for Aldo.

Still on the fence
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He might for a while but with the array of attacking talent of our side and their movement sooner or later they will find space.

Ghiggia and Zagallo are key here as they will help to create space in the middle for Didi to pull the strings. I see our team dominating midfield
 
I find it a bit odd that so much has been made of this covering/defensive contribution factor. Aldo sports a back 3 (not a shabby one either) plus Mascherano. It looks like a normal enough wingback setup to me - not something that is inherently shaky and needs an unrealistic amount of defensive work on the parts of Di Maria and Rincon in order to work.

Like others have said, this looks damn tight. Hard to call a winner, I'd say. *

* I won't be voting anyway.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I find it a bit odd that so much has been made of this covering/defensive contribution factor. Aldo sports a back 3 (not a shabby one either) plus Mascherano. It looks like a normal enough wingback setup to me - not something that is inherently shaky and needs an unrealistic amount of defensive work on the parts of Di Maria and Rincon in order to work.
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Precisely, it's a solid defensive set-up imo.
 
The match has been a bit anticlimactic since Aldo hasn't been able to contribute to the discussion - never sits quite right (seems unfair on the other team when the vote doesn't favour 'em), but there's little one can do about it.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
The match has been a bit anticlimactic since Aldo hasn't been able to contribute to the discussion - never sits quite right (seems unfair on the other team when the vote doesn't favour 'em), but there's little one can do about it.
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Aye, from what I see it's a bit negative approach with a great defensive line and relying on counters, but that's pretty evident. Apart from that I can't really tell what the plan is - Tito is great counter on Francescoli and I can see him troubling him - that's probably Aldo's best attacker.

On the other hand M/M/R team is well suited and IMO good fit tactically. Tito/Didi is one of the best(if not the best midfield) in the first round. Zagallo/Ghiggia are well suited for helping out in both phases and probably they would gain an edge on the flanks - Marzolini and Zagallo especially is a great industrious flank that will come against IMO the Aldo's weaker right side.

On the flip side M/M/R team is reliant hugely on Sanchez to score a goal, but in and against a deep line and defensive set up probably he can sneak a 92 min winner.
 
Well, it's somewhat strange to see that Aldo couldn't make himself involved in this match, unfortunately. I would have loved to have some discussions with him as well.

I'll reserve my points until he gets involved or if neutrals start making posts.
 
Physiocrat said:
I think though if Nelinho gets forward R Carlos will have some joy down the left which could open it up for Aldo.
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Well, Aldo himself is trying to play a counterattacking setup, so Roberto Carlos will be on the back foot for much of the match especially with the midfield that we have. This does not really suit his skill set that well, and I struggle to see how he will adapt to having to defend for so much of the match.
 
I'm seeing a draw to be honest. Maybe 1-1 with goals from Sanchez and Leonidas.
 
mazhar13 said:
Well, Aldo himself is trying to play a counterattacking setup, so Roberto Carlos will be on the back foot for much of the match especially with the midfield that we have. This does not really suit his skill set that well, and I struggle to see how he will adapt to having to defend for so much of the match.
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Carlos will be on the back foot to some extent but with the rest of the back 5 and Mascherano I think he'll have more chance going forward than you're making out. Plus Nelinho is providing you width on the right so there is an opening. it's far from definitive but it's an opening nonetheless.
 
Physiocrat said:
Was it to do with his old friends who screwed up that match once?
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No idea, to be honest - was someone else who mentioned that he had been banned (temporarily, mind) but they didn't go into details.

Hopefully he's back soon.
 
Physiocrat said:
Carlos will be on the back foot to some extent but with the rest of the back 5 and Mascherano I think he'll have more chance going forward than you're making out. Plus Nelinho is providing you width on the right so there is an opening. it's far from definitive but it's an opening nonetheless.
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Nelinho isn't the main provider of width on the right; that's Ghiggia, who's perfectly suited to taking on Bobby C here. The only time Nelinho will start to come forward is when we sustain possession and try to overload the right side or when Ghiggia is getting double-teamed. He played the same way for Brazil as well (see Brazil vs. Yugoslavia in the 1974 World Cup when he faced Dzajic at his peak and kept a clean sheet against them). Nelinho's dribbling and crossing will also make him a wide threat, and it will allow Ghiggia to enter the inside right channels where his accurate finishing can become useful.
 
mazhar13 said:
Nelinho isn't the main provider of width on the right; that's Ghiggia, who's perfectly suited to taking on Bobby C here. The only time Nelinho will start to come forward is when we sustain possession and try to overload the right side or when Ghiggia is getting double-teamed. He played the same way for Brazil as well (see Brazil vs. Yugoslavia in the 1974 World Cup when he faced Dzajic at his peak and kept a clean sheet against them). Nelinho's dribbling and crossing will also make him a wide threat, and it will allow Ghiggia to enter the inside right channels where his accurate finishing can become useful.
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Sorry, I was mixing up draft games with the Brazil '82 remake.

That said if IIRC correctly Ghiggia is more of a wide forward than a winger so you may want Nelinho to come forward more often.
 
Physiocrat said:
Sorry, I was mixing up draft games with the Brazil '82 remake.

That said if IIRC correctly Ghiggia is more of a wide forward than a winger so you may want Nelinho to come forward more often.
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Nope, he's a winger. He was the right winger for Uruguay in the 1950 World Cup (Julio Perez was the right inside forward) and was also the right winger in his club career as well. If he was a wide forward, we'd see more goals from him, but he mainly played a creative role, beating his marker then whipping in an accurate cross for one of the forward to pounce on.

Uruguay_vs_Brazil_1950-07-16.svg
 
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mazhar13 said:
Nope, he's a winger. He was the right winger for Uruguay in the 1950 World Cup (Julio Perez was the right inside forward) and was also the right winger in his club career as well. If he was a wide forward, we'd see more goals from him, but he mainly played a creative role, beating his marker then whipping in an accurate cross for one of the forward to pounce on.

Uruguay_vs_Brazil_1950-07-16.svg
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Point taken. I really have no idea how this game would finish, though probably 1-1.
 
Still leaning MMR but can't quite pull the trigger yet, need a little push. Convince me!
 
Gone for MMR by a margin of a bees dick. I think that right flank of Nelinho and Ghiggia with Burruchaga helping out can get the better of Aldo's defense.
 
Jayvin said:
Still leaning MMR but can't quite pull the trigger yet, need a little push. Convince me!
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What more convincing can there be than in the fact that we have a team that shuts down Aldo's completely whilst having the best goalscorer in this match? Not only that, but a player like Burruchaga is invaluable in the work that he does for us in linking up the midfield and attack as well as in providing Sanchez the platform to focus on scoring goals. Plus, it's not like we lack goalscorers elsewhere. Ghiggia himself scored 4 goals in 4 games in the 1950 World Cup. I already outlined Burruchaga's goalscoring prowess above. Didi was also a capable goalscorer himself from his midfield role. On top of that, you also have Nelinho who's capable of scoring goals out of nothing when he can get forward.
 
mazhar13 said:
we have a team that shuts down Aldo's completely whilst having the best goalscorer in this match?
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Not sure that you can say that Sanchez is a better goalscorer than Leonidas. If anything, it's the other way round, judging purely on stats (which we shouldn't, of course).
 
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