The last game I've seen of Rocha (Penarol vs Santos iirc) he usually got the ball very deep, almost near Gonçalvez, before running/passing forward
Angelillo seems more like an inside forward though
The Americas Draft, R1: EAP/Sjor vs DavidG 7-5
- Thread starter Chesterlestreet
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Angelillo seems more like an inside forward though
And just to reiterate the class of players in my team...Varela, Tostao and Rocha are consistently rated highly in every all-time South American polls.
It's a choice to build a 3-2-5, but the archaic formation should not be considered an outright weakness here.
+ The flank threat from Neymar/Jair out wide is far greater than anything Sorin/Cafu could come up with.
+ The central threat from Rocha/Angelilo/Tostao is far greater than Rivaldo/Magico/Falcao.
+ Varela is the best midfielder on the pitch.
+ Djalma is the best defender on the pitch.
+ Jair vs Sorin will also be to my advantage.
+ Neymar will always be be there in space behind Cafu for the quick counter.
It's a choice to build a 3-2-5, but the archaic formation should not be considered an outright weakness here.
+ The flank threat from Neymar/Jair out wide is far greater than anything Sorin/Cafu could come up with.
+ The central threat from Rocha/Angelilo/Tostao is far greater than Rivaldo/Magico/Falcao.
+ Varela is the best midfielder on the pitch.
+ Djalma is the best defender on the pitch.
+ Jair vs Sorin will also be to my advantage.
+ Neymar will always be be there in space behind Cafu for the quick counter.
LB: Juan Pablo Sorin. Capable of playing anywhere in defence or midfield, Sorin brings industry to the left hand side. He will be a bit more conservative with his forward runs than Cafu, however with my midfielders being comfortable on the ball and able to retain it well, he will always present an out-ball to the left hand side and will occasionally venture forward and in behind the opposition defence, where he can be potentially devastating in the air.
He won't be going forward if theres no need for him to, depends how the game progresses really. Often for Barcelona you would have Alves and Alba level with the opposition 18 yard box at the same time, with pique/mascherano/busquets providing the cover.
point 1- Cafu is a right back yet potentially poses the greatest attacking threat in this game. Varela will have to contend with Clodoaldos expert dribbling/ distribution before he has to think about Cafu's marauding runs. Cafu is solid enough a defender to hold his own against Neymar.
Point 2- Thats a hell of a claim if we are to take all players performing at their peak.
Point 3- This would be a better discussion if he was playing in his preferred position. Pound for pound, Cafu is the best defender in this game for everything that he offers to the role.
Point 1 - Wut? Cafu is greater attacking threat than Neymar, Tostao, Angelilo, Rocha and Jair? Seriously? He's a great fullback...but this is simply ridiculous.
Point 2 - I stand by it. CF - Tostao > Falcao | IL - Rocha > Rivaldo | IR - Angelilo > Magicko (#10).
Point 3 - Don't understand your comments. Djalma is in his best position here. Cafu is arguably the greatest attacking right back and Djalma is the greatest defensive right back. And in an all time context, Djalma shades it ahead of Cafu.
I tend to put IFFHS and other professional organizations ahead of Redcafe, tbh. Players like Rocha, Moreno, Zizinho etc are not exactly as popular as Zico, Maradona and Co with modern posters, but that mean they are not at that level.
Then your picture (that I quoted) is misleading and you'll only have one fullback providing width.
And if you'll have Silva, Aldair and Alvarez covering against EAP's front 5, it's suicide - Clodoaldo and Andreolo won't be fast enough (plus it's not Clodoaldo's natural game to cover the flank) and Cafu and Sorin will be too far behind Neymar & Jair
@harms , from the pic
NOTE: This is not me saying that it would definitely pan out the way I have it in the graphic, it just illustrates that my side will have width to it in attack, and the ability of both those full backs to recover defensively really shouldn't be up for debate.
Not sure if you have the word pan but i'm saying that it's not a set in stone representation of what could happen, it merely demonstrates the available width should my team use it.
NOTE: This is not me saying that it would definitely pan out the way I have it in the graphic, it just illustrates that my side will have width to it in attack, and the ability of both those full backs to recover defensively really shouldn't be up for debate.
Not sure if you have the word pan but i'm saying that it's not a set in stone representation of what could happen, it merely demonstrates the available width should my team use it.
this is way too close to make that distinction. Put it this way, If you were offered the choice of Djalma at RCB in a back 3, or Cafu in a back 4, who would you take? you can only choose one. If it's Djalma then fair enough, but you have effectively given Cafu the right flank to himself, which he is potentially the greatest of all time at completely dominating. Although not the quickest, Clodoaldo and Alvarez can easily get across to nullify any of neymars threat and cafu will be back in place in no time.
Re my first point, it's because of all the players on the park, the oppositions tactics and players suit Cafu's playing style the most.
Well, I'm not seeing the point in that illustration if your team isn't going to play that way
You're depicting a front 5 that will stretch Edgar's defence all over the pitch, but if one of that front 5 (Sorin) will be sitting back most of the time, than Edgar's defence will be pretty tight and compact.The available width for your team, if you want to have a good enough cover for Edgar's attackers, will be one overlapping fullback + Rivaldo/Magico stretching on the other wing, probably on the left. Cafu may be faster than Neymar but he won't have the speed to recover the lost meters, especially without the foul.
I think there's a case to be made for both teams playing some suicidal tactics. EAP/SJOR is leaving 5 players upfield pretty much at all times. Against the central creativity and the overlapping runs, that to me is suicide.
Well, I'm not seeing the point in that illustration if your team isn't going to play that way
The available width for your team, if you want to have a good enough cover for Edgar's attackers, will be one overlapping fullback + Rivaldo/Magico stretching on the other wing, probably on the left. Cafu may be faster than Neymar but he won't have the speed to recover the lost meters, especially without the foul.
Well as long as theres no sending offs, we will take the fouls and deal with the crosses into the box every time
@Edgar Allan Pillow @Šjor Bepo
What version of Neymar do we have here? His current one where he cuts in a lot or his more direct sticking to the wing one?
What version of Neymar do we have here? His current one where he cuts in a lot or his more direct sticking to the wing one?
You really don't have the width. With Sorin playing a laid back role, Cafu will be your only full time wide outlet. And with Rivaldo on the opposite flank, I doubt they'd connect in any meaningful way.
So what have here is:
* Cafu and Clodoaldo combinine without any forward upfront. I doubt Falcao is dynamic enough to force himself into a battle deep out of the box. De Leon can handle him anyway.
* Rivaldo with a laid back full back and a holding midfielder playing B2B behind him. Not exactly designed to bring out the best in him.
I expect Rivaldo to drop back to get something going and Falcao isolated in the box most time awaiting a pass for Rivaldo or a cross from Cafu...nothing my defence can't handle.
And Cafu is not a goal scoring defender. All he can do is cross to Falcao and I can depend on Varela and De Leon to physically impose themselves there. Falcao will rarely get any good headers. It's a long shot way of scoring.
Clodoaldo will rarely venture out wide Neymar will exploit the space behind Cafu. Just impossible even for Cafu to be providing all that width and marking Neymar out.
Couple of other points too:
- Andreolo was a holding midfielder in 1938 WC, not a box to box type as played here.
- Leonel Alvarez was a pure DM, not a drop back into CB type player from what I read. Considering the back arrow in your formation, has he ever played as a CB type player in any sense? Just curious.
Zico was 14th on the IFFHS World Player of the Century.
Pedro Rocha does not appear on the IFFHS World Player of the Century list.
I understand that some players a little less recognized especially earlier ones like Moreno and Zizinho but Rocha played in the 60s and 70s. He is plenty well known across CA and SA and simply wasn't at the same level as Zico. No Central or South American I ever knew who have seen both would put Rocha in the same tier as Zico or Maradona.
Re Andreolo, I haven't mentioned box to box at all, here's my description of him;
CM: Michele Andreolo- World cup winner with Italy and Copa America winner with Uruguay, Andreolo was one of the better midfielders of his time, and one of the catalysts for the success of Bologna in the earlier years of Serie A ( 4 titles in 6 years). Andreolo himself said " The penalty area is too small to me, in midfield you breathe better" and as such he will not be venturing too far forward, sitting deeper with Alvarez and letting the more technical players do their thing.
Re Alvarez, the arrows ( for me at least ) don't necessarily indicate a position, more just an extra indiciation as to the mentality. When I am attacking, he will stay reasonably close to the two CB's not play as one of them.
Clodoaldo didn't play wide, and whilst his main role in this game is to retain possession and dribble into effective areas, He is at least capable of being another body for Your offensive players to worry about. I'm not passing him off as a ball winning DM, but sometimes it seems in these drafts that people just expect players to stand there and let people walk around them.
Never claimed they are equal to Zico. It was an answer to the redcaf thread and my point was, when you think of South American attacking midfielders players like Maradona, Zico etc come readily to mind...and that explains absence of Rocha, Moreno etc from that thread. Not a direct comparison of the players.
you have passed off Rocha as an all time south american great, been vocal about which organisation's opinion you value more, and the player in question does not appear on the list. This is over-rating at it's fickle best
This is just someone's list, but the level of effort that's gone into it makes it seem somewhat trustworthy, No place for Rocha but 25th for Rivaldo in an all time context. personally think the Rocha> Rivaldo claim is a bit outlandish
http://footballpantheon.com/2011/09/the-100-greatest-players-of-all-time/10/
http://footballpantheon.com/2011/09/the-100-greatest-players-of-all-time/10/
So it's not exactly a diamond, is it? Based on your explanations, below is how I think will actually function:
You really need to read up on Rocha.
Here is IFFHS Player of the Century Elections
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/iffhs-century.html
Code:
South America - Player of the Century
13.Arthur Friedenreich (Brazil) 21
"Tostão" (Brazil) 21 (Eduardo Gonçalves de Andrade)
Obdulio Jacinto Varela (Uruguay) 21
37.Luís Edmundo Pereira (Brazil) 7
Pedro Virgilio Rocha (Uruguay) 7Dude, onenil was talking World Player of the Century which is not really relevant. I was talking South American Player of the Century which is a better comparative option to rate players in this draft. And yeah, I still do maintain Rocha > Rivaldo.
I was impressed with Rocha when we had him in the 40s draft. A class act with some compelling performances over the years against Brazil, at the 1966 World Cup, and particularly for Penarol not just domestically but in the continental and intercontinental (eg the win over Real Madrid) competitions.
That said, Rivaldo is a level above.
So it's not exactly a diamond, is it? Based on your explanations, below is how I think will actually function:
You really need to read up on Rocha.
Here is IFFHS Player of the Century Elections
http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/iffhs-century.html
Code:South America - Player of the Century 13.Arthur Friedenreich (Brazil) 21 "Tostão" (Brazil) 21 (Eduardo Gonçalves de Andrade) Obdulio Jacinto Varela (Uruguay) 21 37.Luís Edmundo Pereira (Brazil) 7 Pedro Virgilio Rocha (Uruguay) 7
Apologies, i was referencing the world one. 37th and 8th in all time Uruguay doesn't really back up what you initially said though.
Didnt know he had 2 versions TBH....the current one then, version that is great both in support(Barca) and main(Brazil) role, he can do a bit of everything really and that is crucial for his partnership with Rocha. When one takes the creative role the other will make runs behind....
The reason i ask is because current Neymar, for me, is a bit guilty of slowing the game down sometimes- obviously he still has that explosiveness and can hit the byline but I don't see him having free reign as hinted at due to cafu being forward.
i much preferred watching the Santos version of Neymar, though the current one is obviously 10x more well rounded now.
@Edgar Allan Pillow @Šjor Bepo
Can you explain your inspiration for this tactic? Is trying to recreate Chapman's Arsenal? Now that I look at it more closely, it does resemble Chapman's WM a lot.
Can you explain your inspiration for this tactic? Is trying to recreate Chapman's Arsenal? Now that I look at it more closely, it does resemble Chapman's WM a lot.
To me he's much more direct under Enrique(as the whole Barca team of course) and I don't think that's much of a concern. He releases the ball quickly when a team mate is in space and that's the main reason why he racks so many assists lately.
Wouldn't say there are two versions of him, he just developed as a player and is reaching his peak. Obviously at Santos all the flow was through him, while at Barca he's more of a second fiddle to Messi and a team player, but he developed other aspects of his game. Still his playing style is pretty much the same, albeit tactically and positionally different.
As for Rocha and Rivaldo I think they are very different players to be compared. One is more of a playmaker and conductor, while Rivaldo wide forward/SS. In a sense in those two formations I think it's pretty much their best fit positionaly and tactically.
all things considered, has there ever been a better hat-trick than this?
WM false nine was original idea, we didnt want to recreate any team.....in the end its pretty much our own version of 325
Lets put some more emphasize on Tostao because he is a key player for our side.
Not only is he a great player for us he is crucial for the team spirit, just check this ones:
http://www.express.co.uk/sport/foot...er-Anderson-could-have-been-as-good-as-Neymar
http://www.goal.com/en/news/722/la-...ill-become-better-than-ronaldinho-says-tostao
XD
Not only is he a great player for us he is crucial for the team spirit, just check this ones:
http://www.express.co.uk/sport/foot...er-Anderson-could-have-been-as-good-as-Neymar
http://www.goal.com/en/news/722/la-...ill-become-better-than-ronaldinho-says-tostao
XD
Just, no.
Yeah, in the games that I saw of him he was almost playing as an AM in a 4-3-3 and he had the traits of an industrious AM, classical #10 and a goalscoring second-striker, which seems absurd but he seemed like the complete package. Lovely player to watch though, really elegant on the ball and a cultured player to boot.
Btw did you manage to find any good quality full match footage of Penarol's matches from that era? The only ones I managed to find was the game against Celtic but they were woefully off form in that one whilst the games against Real and River Plate etc were crackers but had really poor quality footage.
Surprised the opposition is getting off so lightly here tbh, you have;
Almost half the team not playing in what I would consider their best position ( Djalma, Córdoba , varela who I thought was a right half maybe wrong , angelilo and rocha )
Senna , who although admittedly great for one season at Villarreal and Spain , his exit from the national side coincided with Spain going on to their dominance. All things considered , he's a very average player
EAP/ Sjor are leaving 5 players upfield at all times , which is suicide against a Sunday league team let alone mine . Even Moreno tracked back for la Maquinha , 5 left upfield plays into my hands
Cafu has the right side to himself basically. Sorin when he he goes forward will have similar joy on the left
The claim that rocha > rivaldo is one of the biggest wind ups I've seen in these drafts . I get you have to big up your players but like aldo said , just , no
Almost half the team not playing in what I would consider their best position ( Djalma, Córdoba , varela who I thought was a right half maybe wrong , angelilo and rocha )
Senna , who although admittedly great for one season at Villarreal and Spain , his exit from the national side coincided with Spain going on to their dominance. All things considered , he's a very average player
EAP/ Sjor are leaving 5 players upfield at all times , which is suicide against a Sunday league team let alone mine . Even Moreno tracked back for la Maquinha , 5 left upfield plays into my hands
Cafu has the right side to himself basically. Sorin when he he goes forward will have similar joy on the left
The claim that rocha > rivaldo is one of the biggest wind ups I've seen in these drafts . I get you have to big up your players but like aldo said , just , no
Checked that out before, quite a shame how most of the SA matches from that era have relatively poor quality footage and they are almost non-existent when it comes to Copa America matches.
Outwith the season I mentioned , he was nothing special.
@Physiocrat @Gio @Mciahel Goodman get some votes in , either make it a battering or send it to penalties after the likely 6-6 draw this game could conceivably throw up
So be it @DavidG
Going for EAP/Sjor. I don't buy Neymar as an outside left but I see them creating more chances than you. I really like the vid of Magico but it seems he was a very inconsistent player. If you'd had someone more like Riquelme I could see you doing more damage. Your wingbacks could do some damage but Jair will do more against Sorin.
Note, I do like the fact you were sending both full-backs up at the same time. Makes a lot of sense given the DM dropping into the defence.
Going for EAP/Sjor. I don't buy Neymar as an outside left but I see them creating more chances than you. I really like the vid of Magico but it seems he was a very inconsistent player. If you'd had someone more like Riquelme I could see you doing more damage. Your wingbacks could do some damage but Jair will do more against Sorin.
Note, I do like the fact you were sending both full-backs up at the same time. Makes a lot of sense given the DM dropping into the defence.