The Americas Draft, QF2: Enigma/Joga vs EAP/Sjor

Considering players at their peak, who will win the match?

  • Enigma/Joga

    Votes: 15 71.4%
  • EAP/Sjor

    Votes: 6 28.6%

  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .
So long as you trust each other to come forward with the real vote... ;)

@Cutch and I couldn't trust each other to vote for ourselves to see the results, we once spent about 15 minutes of a final going "You first", "No, you!" via PM. :lol:
Well you can always share a screen in case of conflict for neutral. I can see who I voted for :)

That and of course the possibility of the votes becoming visible after it's all said and done.
 
You think that's Juve? :lol:

On point, that's a rather different setup and looks every bit a 4-3-3 when on the ball, in attack, with a high line.

I have attempted 3-2-3-2 several times before and agree with the general point on not just dissing formations so long as they have the right players. The problem is you don't.

You need a high line and the wingers tracking back for your setup to work. Jair is fine, but you lack someone like him at the other end (which also happens to be Enigma's most dangerous flank). And you can't play a high line because De León would end up stranded in midfield most of the time.

This is an America's draft and I struggle to see how 3 or 5 (@Aldo) at the back can be a way forward, it's simply not in our nature and not what 99% of club and national teams have played. It's a bit like England struggling not to play 4-4-2. Terry, great defender. Rio, great defender. Campbell, great defender. Play them in a back three and it will be a fecking disaster.

If you wanted to play top heavy you should have at least made sure you had the right (and few) players in the key positions that will make or break the tactic. You haven't.

I buy that your formidable midfield can impose itself and control the game, but I don't buy that you will outscore the oppo. You will be great to watch, but Enigma will be more effective. Nevermind Garrincha: Zanetti => early cross => Erico => BOOM!

You'll control the middle of the pitch, so your rival will just counter down the flanks and bypass that midfield. Both Branco and Zanetti can boss those flanks and provide the crosses, add Garrincha and Sosita and they are just cheating. Who's leading the line? The human jack-in-the-box, the most agile and resourceful striker that you could hope for when focusing your game down the flanks.

Sorry mate, but I can't see it, even if Obdulio is a marked improvement on John Pantsil.

I'm not sure I recall any other 3-2-5 attempts in a SA team apart from that Brazil 1950 side(that ended well lol)?

Most of the classic sides opted for 2-3-5 which is a lot different. It's a nice try from Edgar, but I can see this working in an European side as you have the personnel to pull it off.

Djalma is very good option for a RCB, you can have Passarella as a CB or Figueroa, but even with a completely open pool I'm struggling to come up with someone that can play in that LCB position. Maybe Nilton Santos and that's it.
 
I can't decide on this one, yet. I'll have a vote in before time's up though.
 
I'm not sure I recall any other 3-2-5 attempts in a SA team apart from that Brazil 1950 side(that ended well lol)?

Most of the classic sides opted for 2-3-5 which is a lot different. It's a nice try from Edgar, but I can see this working in an European side as you have the personnel to pull it off.

Djalma is very good option for a RCB, you can have Passarella as a CB or Figueroa, but even with a completely open pool I'm struggling to come up with someone that can play in that LCB position. Maybe Nilton Santos and that's it.

I reckon I'd buy Marzolini in the LCB slot.
 
Djalma is very good option for a RCB, you can have Passarella as a CB or Figueroa, but even with a completely open pool I'm struggling to come up with someone that can play in that LCB position. Maybe Nilton Santos and that's it.

Nah, Nilton would be more attacking and would not fit that role. Marzolini...but he comes across as a back 4 fullback too when I looked him in earlier draft. It's either VR Andrade or down to Cordoba level. Not really a wealth of options there, is there? :(
 
Nah, Nilton would be more attacking and would not fit that role. Marzolini...but he comes across as a back 4 fullback too when I looked him in earlier draft. It's either VR Andrade or down to Cordoba level. Not really a wealth of options there, is there? :(
Nilton Santos played as a CB for Botafogo - like Maldini. IMO he's the best fit for this system. Apart from that is a bit meh...

As @Aldo mentioned in the main thread, didn't want to bring it up there as it would be unfair to comment it prior the game, Cordoba doesn't strike me as a good fit tactically for that position. I'm not sure he has the discipline to pull it off, neither the intelligence. You need a very specific type of defender for that role, especially with no wing backs in this formation.
I reckon I'd buy Marzolini in the LCB slot.
Good shout in terms of abilities, but then I think he only played as a full back and would be an unfamiliar role for him.
 
I'm not sure I recall any other 3-2-5 attempts in a SA team apart from that Brazil 1950 side(that ended well lol)?

Most of the classic sides opted for 2-3-5 which is a lot different. It's a nice try from Edgar, but I can see this working in an European side as you have the personnel to pull it off.

Djalma is very good option for a RCB, you can have Passarella as a CB or Figueroa, but even with a completely open pool I'm struggling to come up with someone that can play in that LCB position. Maybe Nilton Santos and that's it.

Victor.

I tried it in the WC All-time All-Stars draft and that was precisely my problem. We had a limit by era and by continent and I wound up needing to find a SAM trio that also worked with the eras. Couldn't pick a Krol, Maldini or any of the sort so wound up with Junior which defensively was a disaster waiting to happen.

My ideal was Victor-Figueroa-Djalma but didn't last long enough to get the chance (and even then getting Djalma would have meant finding a modern guy from the same continent to sub any of the other players, nightmare!).

abGd7jCae1.jpg
 
Maldini yes, but I didn't know Nilton played CB for Botofago. But then, would that really be doing justice to Nilton (known for his offensive prowess). How good a CB was he btw?


In the game against France he tucked in a lot. He was much more balanced than the usually attacking full back labelled game would suggest.

There's not many highlights from Botafogo games, unfortunately. He was pretty solid defensively, and to me a not the typical overlapping fullback that he's known for. From all my research on him he was hailed a lot by all sources, but from the games I've seen he's a top defender. At Botafogo he played a CB not just to fill in. I'll try to dig up some sources.
 
Ah well, this is done, I suppose.

Me & Sjor were actually surprised to have made it past @DavidG tbh. We did expect to crash out in R1. I was secretly hoping to draw onenil and his central formation to have a glimpse of a chance...but the moment we drew you both, we know it'd be a total washout. But hey, we still made R2 and got 4 votes in this match, so I count this as 'exceeds expectations' in my book ;)

Great team and all the best way forward!


Thanks @Šjor Bepo . Brilliant partnering with you and super gif's on Rocha!
 
I was just catching up on the thread and reading about Godin. I was wondering that how come someone like Terry is not given his dues in the draft, with the reason given that he is dependent on defensive system. While Godin's playing in tactically one of the most negative teams I have seen does not count for anything ? A lot of his success has come from playing in a system where every player is extremely hard working and defends a lot. Not saying he is not a top defender but claiming him as top 3 SA defender of all time !! when considering his lack of success internationally in a fairly good Uruguay team (at least on SA level) seem a bit of stretch to me.
 
I was secretly hoping to draw onenil and his central formation to have a glimpse of a chance...

What a missed opportunity! I was also very much hoping to draw you as well! Except you wouldn't have been facing the formation you expected to face. I was going to turn my team into a 4-2-4 and tactically exploit like Hungary did to England's WM ;) I even wrote a little in the hopes of drawing you but alas we shall save that for another day in another draft hopefully :)
 
I was just catching up on the thread and reading about Godin. I was wondering that how come someone like Terry is not given his dues in the draft, with the reason given that he is dependent on defensive system. While Godin's playing in tactically one of the most negative teams I have seen does not count for anything ? A lot of his success has come from playing in a system where every player is extremely hard working and defends a lot. Not saying he is not a top defender but claiming him as top 3 SA defender of all time !! when considering his lack of success internationally in a fairly good Uruguay team (at least on SA level) seem a bit of stretch to me.

He won a Copa America. That's one more than Messi, Maradona or Pelé ever mustered.
 
I was just catching up on the thread and reading about Godin. I was wondering that how come someone like Terry is not given his dues in the draft, with the reason given that he is dependent on defensive system. While Godin's playing in tactically one of the most negative teams I have seen does not count for anything ? A lot of his success has come from playing in a system where every player is extremely hard working and defends a lot. Not saying he is not a top defender but claiming him as top 3 SA defender of all time !! when considering his lack of success internationally in a fairly good Uruguay team (at least on SA level) seem a bit of stretch to me.
I daresay it might be because he's a Chelsea cnut and there's a tendency amongst some of the die-hards to under-rate the likes of Terry and Kompany to paint the likes of Vidic and Rio in a shinier light.
 
I have a lot of time for Terry myself, he is just the sort of player you will only ever support vocally if he played for you. I do get a soft spot emerging when I read about the little details, the important things he does as club captain... then I remind myself he is a cnut, a full kit wanker and that he shagged a teammate's partner.

Great defender though, would give my left bollock for a prime Terry in our defence.
 
Montero seems a good fit to me.
I think he'd be a better fit as a LCB in a 3-5-2 with an astute left wing-back, but would lack the athleticism to effectively cover the two positions that would be required in a 3-2-5 or similarly gung-ho set-up.
 
I was just catching up on the thread and reading about Godin. I was wondering that how come someone like Terry is not given his dues in the draft, with the reason given that he is dependent on defensive system. While Godin's playing in tactically one of the most negative teams I have seen does not count for anything ? A lot of his success has come from playing in a system where every player is extremely hard working and defends a lot. Not saying he is not a top defender but claiming him as top 3 SA defender of all time !! when considering his lack of success internationally in a fairly good Uruguay team (at least on SA level) seem a bit of stretch to me.
Arguably though you could make the same tactical point about any of the Milan greats, Baresi and Maldini in particular. Or just about any defensive star from Serie A in the 1960s through to the 1990s.

While rating Thiago Silva highly, I think Godin is the standout of this generation's defenders. Despite operating in a more challenging era given how attacker-friendly the refereeing is, he's practically flawless. Fine credentials in the bread and butter of domestic football, but even moreso in the big league and continental clashes, particularly impressive in quelling some unbelievably talent-laden attacks. Solid international record as well.
 
Didn't he play like 2 minutes in that tournament, with Coates preferred over him ?

Yes. It wasn't so much preferred as Coates having been part of the Tabárez "process" (building from youth teams) while Godín had to force his way in.

But, again, you can't hold it against him that a Suarez-less Uruguay didn't manage to win the 2015 or 16 Copas when Argentina with Messi couldn't either.
 
I think he'd be a better fit as a LCB in a 3-5-2 with an astute left wing-back, but would lack the athleticism to effectively cover the two positions that would be required in a 3-2-5 or similarly gung-ho set-up.

This
 
Ah well, this is done, I suppose.

Me & Sjor were actually surprised to have made it past @DavidG tbh. We did expect to crash out in R1. I was secretly hoping to draw onenil and his central formation to have a glimpse of a chance...but the moment we drew you both, we know it'd be a total washout. But hey, we still made R2 and got 4 votes in this match, so I count this as 'exceeds expectations' in my book ;)

Great team and all the best way forward!


Thanks @Šjor Bepo . Brilliant partnering with you and super gif's on Rocha!

Pretty much this, we knew we are fecked the minute we draw Garrincha.....

edit: oh forgot to congratulate enigma and joga, great game and a very nice team.
 
I was just catching up on the thread and reading about Godin. I was wondering that how come someone like Terry is not given his dues in the draft, with the reason given that he is dependent on defensive system

Erm no, it's quite clearly because Terry's poor athletically and isn't the most secure centre-back against the nippy and agile forwards with low centre of gravity. More of a classic stopper with great reading of the game, physicality, leadership and aerial ability etc. With a complementary set-up and a centre-back he'd be a solid presence at the back. Whereas Godin on the other hand, is more of a well-rounded stopper who doesn't have the same flaws that tends to plague your conventional stopper - sort of like Kohler vs say Butcher for example.

Godin is a leader by nature and can often be seen marshaling the defense and midfield into their correct positions. As an individual too, he has had a stellar season. Godin is more of an old-style center back when it comes to defending. He believes in letting his opponent know of his presence and is very physical in his approach. He averages 8.1 clearances per game and that clearly shows his safety first approach that has benefited Atletico Madrid so well this season. His tackling too is impressive and he gets most of his tackles right. When it comes down to tackles, he averages 2.1 tackles per game and that is a very respectable figure for a center back. And he is strong in the air too. He has a good jump and a keen sense of blocking attackers’ jumps. He stands at a height of six feet and has won an average of 3 aerial duels per game in La Liga and proved a rock when it comes to defending set pieces.

But he is not just about old-school defending. The key to his success lies in the way he has amalgamated traditional defending with smartness and intelligence in his game. He is a brilliant reader of the game and with 91 interceptions this season, he ranks high on the European charts. Also, he has a decent burst of pace which gives the luxury of implementing the offside trap and at various times, notably against Athletic Bilbao in the league, he caught up with attackers like Muniain and Llorente who had escaped the offside trap. Inherent in Godin is the tough South American mentality of not letting his opponent past at any cost and he has been a remarkably difficult man to beat while dribbling. In La Liga which which is full of dribblers in attack and defense, that is high praise indeed.

While Godin's playing in tactically one of the most negative teams I have seen does not count for anything ? A lot of his success has come from playing in a system where every player is extremely hard working and defends a lot.

Tbf, that same charge could be levelled at some of the greats to ever play the game - Facchetti for instance plays in some fairly adventurous sides in these drafts and he's more or less always played in fairly defensive sides in Inter and Italy. For instance, does Dani Alves have to play in a high line and a possession oriented side for him to thrive? I could very easily claim 'does him (Alves) playing for one of the most tactically radical sides (Barca) in recent times, not count for anything?' That wouldn't be fair though imo, and one has to look at the individual and what they bring to the table, and most importantly how suited they are to the set-up they are being employed in. Would Dani Alves look out of place in a shut-out and defensively oriented side, with an emphasis on holding out at the back? Yes he would, just as Godin would look out of place in a high line, possession oriented side.


Not saying he is not a top defender but claiming him as top 3 SA defender of all time !! when considering his lack of success internationally in a fairly good Uruguay team (at least on SA level) seem a bit of stretch to me.

Has anyone claimed he is a top 3 SA defender of all time though? Most place him in the second tier after Nasazzi, Passarella, Da Guia, Chumpitaz and Santamaria. Only anto said there wasn't much between Santamaria, Chumpitaz and Godin to put them in separate tiers, which is fair enough and his opinion.

Regarding Godin's lack of success on the international stage, he was excellent in the 2010 WC where he was amongst the best centre-backs of the tournament. Likewise, he acquitted himself well in the 2014 WC where his winner against Italy propelled Uruguay into the knock-out stages - where they couldn't leave a mark due to the Suarez fiasco unfortunately. I've gone into more depth on his displays in the la liga and the Champions League in this post.



I made a more detailed post on this issue some time ago, which I shall repost here. Heh, funnily enough I make the same points that I made here and I didn't even realise that till seeing that post again.

I get where you are coming from but unless there is a notable case (circumstantial evidence or a decent rationale as to why his playing style won't be a fit etc - J.Terry) for the said player being at a level less than his peak in other systems, I wouldn't pay too much heed to it. Godin has mostly excelled in a deeper and compact systems for both Atletico and Uruguay but there is nothing there to suggest that he couldn't extrapolate that form into a slightly more conventional set-up. Do recall him being a fine defender for Villareal myself but can't say I've watched much of him there. Of course, it would be hard to buy him in a high line Barca-esque set-up, as it would be to buy Pique in a deep Atletico style defense. But there is always a mid-point and I don't see why Godin HAS to be utilised in an extreme set-up for him to excel.


For instance, Facchetti always played in a deep catenaccio styled defense for both club and country during the entirety of his career, and was more or less a man-marker all things said and done. Just because he was brilliant attacking weapon during the possession phase, it did not excuse him from La Grande Inter's rigorous defensive duties. However, we do give some leeway to Facchetti and several others in how we interpret their roles in a more modern zonal system etc (which is understandable given the tactical differences during various eras). Would anyone say Facchetti wouldn't be at his peak defensively in a more conventional or even an adventurous set-up? We primarily focus on his tactical nous and sheer athleticism which easily translates to other systems.

Ultimately it boils down to how highly is Godin dependent on Atletico's system and whether he has it in his skill-set to function, at a similar level, in a more conventional and normal-ish set-up. I don't quite think he is dependent on the Atletico's system to excel, although it does provide him with a better platform to showcase it on a regular basis, and I don't quite see any glaring flaws which could leave him exposed in a more conventional set-up.
 
Last edited:
Good post @Joga Bonito , I went back and read it again and I think I misunderstood, most posters were saying that he is in second tier with Passarella and Figueroa in first (which is fair enough), which I somehow read as he is the third best after those two.

FWIW I don't agree with your assessment of Godin and Terry or that its anywhere near as drastic as Kohler and Butcher. I believe from what I have seen that Terry is definitely on par with Godin in both abilities (they have different strengths ) and mentality.

Having said that in this pool he is definitely one of the best defenders and that reflects with him getting snapped up so early.
 
Last edited:
Regarding Godin's lack of success on the international stage, he was excellent in the 2010 WC where he was amongst the best centre-backs of the tournament

True. Godín was injured in 2011 and the one I complained about re: Tabárez' process constraints was Victorino whom I thought was a better replacement than Coates.
 
Good post @Joga Bonito , I went back and read it again and I think I misunderstood, most posters were saying that he is in second tier with Passarella and Figueroa in first, which I somehow read as he is the third best after those two.

FWIW I don't agree with your assessment of Godin and Terry or that its anywhere near as drastic as Kohler and Butcher. I believe from what I have seen that Terry is definitely on par with Godin in both abilities (they have different strengths ) and mentality. I also don't think its clear cut that he has been the best defender in the world in last few years.

Having said that in this pool he is definitely one of the best defenders and that reflects with him getting snapped up so early.
Terry has a showing weakness - his speed, which makes him unsuitable to a high-line defence (Villas-Boas says hi!) and he also is suspect if the opponent runs towards him at full pace (to be fair it's always harder this way, but he is more uncomfortable than the others). While his obvious strong points are his aerial ability (one of the best in his era) and physicality, which are, of course, better used in the sides that are sitting back and soaking pressure, like Chelsea did so well.

Godin doesn't have the same weaknesses, he is pretty much a complete center back (not an all-time great but he is very all-rounded), which makes him suitable to a more creative sides. Terry needs a protection from midfield and a strong physical striker to deal with - that's when he is at his best.

He is underrated here, no doubt about that though. He shouldn't be rated much lower than Vidic, for example, who is quite similar to him stylistically - and while I rate Vidic' peak marginally higher, Terry beats him on longevity. And he also offers something that not many center-backs do (and something that I always felt both Rio and Vidic should've done more) - a threat in the opposition's box, only Ramos is on his level (or maybe better) in the last decade or so.
 
Good post @Joga Bonito , I went back and read it again and I think I misunderstood, most posters were saying that he is in second tier with Passarella and Figueroa in first (which is fair enough), which I somehow read as he is the third best after those two.

FWIW I don't agree with your assessment of Godin and Terry or that its anywhere near as drastic as Kohler and Butcher. I believe from what I have seen that Terry is definitely on par with Godin in both abilities (they have different strengths ) and mentality.

Having said that in this pool he is definitely one of the best defenders and that reflects with him getting snapped up so early.

It was me who said that about godin, not calling him the 3rd best of all time at all , just lumping him in that second tier. There isn't a single central defence in world football he wouldn't improve, so when he hangs up his boots hel deserve his place amongst the elite defenders.
 
Ah well, this is done, I suppose.

Me & Sjor were actually surprised to have made it past @DavidG tbh. We did expect to crash out in R1. I was secretly hoping to draw onenil and his central formation to have a glimpse of a chance...but the moment we drew you both, we know it'd be a total washout. But hey, we still made R2 and got 4 votes in this match, so I count this as 'exceeds expectations' in my book ;)

Great team and all the best way forward!


Thanks @Šjor Bepo . Brilliant partnering with you and super gif's on Rocha!

Thanks mate. It was a good try tho, I know how you love trying new formations and approach. It's unfortunate not to have the right personnel to pull it off with restricted defensive pool.

Great work on Rocha @Šjor Bepo . Indeed he's one of the top playmakers in the pool and happy to see him get the recognition he deserves.
 
Actually surprised this was such a big victory. When I came up against team EAP/Sjor I was thinking to myself how more effective it would be with players from La Maquinha, specifically Moreno. They ended up with the two main catalysts , and that front line would likely run riot against most defences. Garrincha v Córdoba probably the clincher here
 
It was, rightly so,

I intentionally avoided any mention of Garrincha for quite sometime despite @Joga Bonito asking me about it thrice. Even avoided quoting posts which had Garrincha in it. Really wanted to keep the focus away from him as much as possible :lol:

:lol: Now you know why I spent most of that game with Gio banging on about Nordahl vs. Erico. He had Moreno, Rivaldo, Platini, Xavi and Davids behind him. Tells you the whole story when my only parallel argument was lambasting how Davids couldn't do all the defending himself and would be overrun.

Holding an entire game avoiding mention of that lot, fecking obstacle course that was.
 
Still can't see who voted, eh?

I'll look further into it - luckily (depending on one's POV) it wasn't a close one, at least.
 
Still can't edit it, i.e. the option has simply vanished.

It's a) a pure, one-time bug or b) that once you've gone for the non-public option you can't change it (which is a permanent bug of sorts, I'd say - because it kinda sucks and doesn't really make sense either). I'm pretty sure I went with the same options for this match as for all the others, i.e. public votes - but it's possible that I simply mis-clicked.

Well, the lesson is - then - that if it's b) you have to be feckin' sure that you've got the options right before posting.
 
Still can't edit it, i.e. the option has simply vanished.

It's a) a pure, one-time bug or b) that once you've gone for the non-public option you can't change it (which is a permanent bug of sorts, I'd say - because it kinda sucks and doesn't really make sense either). I'm pretty sure I went with the same options for this match as for all the others, i.e. public votes - but it's possible that I simply mis-clicked.

Well, the lesson is - then - that if it's b) you have to be feckin' sure that you've got the options right before posting.

It's probably B
 
Still can't edit it, i.e. the option has simply vanished.

It's a) a pure, one-time bug or b) that once you've gone for the non-public option you can't change it (which is a permanent bug of sorts, I'd say - because it kinda sucks and doesn't really make sense either). I'm pretty sure I went with the same options for this match as for all the others, i.e. public votes - but it's possible that I simply mis-clicked.

Well, the lesson is - then - that if it's b) you have to be feckin' sure that you've got the options right before posting.

Not sure what went wrong but in all other games before you vote there were those two notifications:

Your vote will be publicly visible.
Results are only viewable after voting.

The first one was missing in this one. Dunno if it is an option or something.