The 4-Way Draft R1: Skizzo vs Raees

[antohan]

Thats a weird way of thinking, not many teams come back from being two down and unless you believe skizzo side has some stamina issue, it is illogical to assume they will go two nil up and then three two down.

See above as I edited.

Scenario 1: Raees' CA team scores first, then soaks and hits back all game. Skizzo can hardly win that.

Scenario 2: Skizzo's team scores first, but isn't designed or built to protect a lead, they just keep going and the advantage can be more easily overtaken. Raees has all five channels covered in attack and Skizzo has 3 defenders. Support them all you want with Neeskens and Luis Enrique, but that box will get peppered with crosses enough times for Gullit/Nordahl to leverage their considerable aerial advantage on the defence they face.

I don't want to just paint it as cross to big chap and win. It would overlook what they could still do centrally ball on deck, but it's glaringly obvious that's an easier route to goal than beating that hard core of Baresi, Schnellinger and Stam.

 

[Gio]

Two excellent sides that really stay true to the teams (or style) they revolve around. Objectively, there's absolutely nothing wrong with either, only room for personal pet peeves.

So it's a matter of comparing tactical strengths and weaknesses.

Skizzo advantages: control possession and proceedings for extended periods. Robust as Redondo-Desailly are, they may as well not be there at times. The key with Koeman and Guardiola (whom I prefer to Suárez here as well, not for defensive reasons but proven record in modern setups) is they can bypass/take them both out of the equation with one swing of their boot. Could also do as much with the high defensive line.

Raees advantages: resilient defence and width. With a back three, Skizzo's worst nightmare is facing a great front trio with excellent wingbacks either side. Schiaffino also is the worst sort of playmaker Skizzo could face, one that doesn't rely on dribbling or individual heroics but one that X-rays a defence, finds all the weaknesses in it and then guts it mercilessly making the Saw saga look PG. If there's a defensive setup that could be picked apart, that's the Dream Team's.

All in all, a cracking game and clash of styles. Skizzo will be more aggressive and come out of the gates trodding all over Raees, will likely score 1/2 goals in the first half but the Milanese will keep at it and grind their way back.

Skizzo can control possession and dominate large chunks of the game but it is Raees' side that has the players and mindset to actually control the moments and outcome of the game. When all is done and dusted, they'll have made more damage.

Yeah. The romantic in me sees Skizzo wiping the floor, the pragmatist reckons Raees might just grind this out. Ultimately it may simply be a question of systems and come down to the defensive fragility of Cruyff's 3-4-3.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Teams chasing a game won't always expose themselves badly. It holds true with >90% of the teams. THAT team though would have the confidence in its own capabilities to stick to the gameplan.

Coming back from two down could be difficult indeed, but at 1-0 or 2-1 down by HT I see Raees having this by FT. He just has a better defence and some strikingly clearcut routes to goal.

Of course, it may turn into a goalfest that goes either way, that would be typical of that Barca side. Just have to make a call between two sides I really like and, unfortunately for you, I'm only too aware of how vulnerable Cruyff's defence was.

Edit: maybe I should have said "even if". The other scenario where you concede first is exactly what a team like @Raees' is built for.

But his question was in reply to you implying his team could be 2 up AND bossing possession.

No doubting Raees' team is strong but your original post made it sound like they could come back from two-down ..... against a great side ..... (with Neeskens to help the defence if needed) ..... with less possession .... AND while not conceding to a front 4 of Laudrup, Stoichkov, Kubala and Romario (who have already scored two)?

From your initial wording, that seemed a huge stretch... and unless Raees had the referee from the Barca/PSG match, couldn't see it.

 

[MJJ]

See above as I edited.

Scenario 1: Raees' CA team scores first, then soaks and hits back all game. Skizzo can hardly win that.

Scenario 2: Skizzo's team scores first, but isn't designed or built to protect a lead, they just keep going and the advantage can be more easily overtaken. Raees has all five channels covered in attack and Skizzo has 3 defenders. Support them all you want with Neeskens and Luis Enrique, but that box will get peppered with crosses enough times for Gullit/Nordahl to leverage their considerable aerial advantage on the defence they face.

I don't want to just paint it as cross to big chap and win. It would overlook what they could still do centrally ball on deck, but it's glaringly obvious that's an easier route to goal than beating that hard core of Baresi, Schnellinger and Stam.

His side is built to retain possession? That is a very weird way of looking at it, I wasnt old enough to watch the dream team but we both saw how pep's side defended by simply suffocating the opposition by possession.

 

[Raees]

His side is built to retain possession? That is a very weird way of looking at it, I wasnt old enough to watch the dream team but we both saw how pep's side defended by simply suffocating the opposition by possession.

And we also saw how Cruyff's/Pep's team and Rijkaard's teams for that matter struggled against sides like Milan/Chelsea/Inter.

Deep set sides, with great defences and fluid, physically powerful forwards. Then we also have the Redondo factor in midfield, breaking up play and driving through enemy lines.

Less needs to be paid to what Anto was trying to say and more about the actual match up itself, I find it very hard to believe Skizzo is scoring loads against my defence because history points to the defensive side being more likely to nick the victory and in any case it being a frustrating match to watch for the neutral with few clear cut chances, and if he was to win.. probably by a single goal.

 

[Oaencha]

@Raees

I really like Zambrotta and would have picked him myself if he was a year older. However, I would have used him supporting a winger/inside forward. Both your wing backs have such big jobs and I don't feel they're elite enough compared to Skizzo's team.

 

[Raees]

@Raees

I really like Zambrotta and would have picked him myself if he was a year older. However, I would have used him supporting a winger/inside forward. Both your wing backs have such big jobs and I don't feel they're elite enough compared to Skizzo's team.

I'd argue Zambrotta has never played for sides with out and out wingers like a Ronaldo etc. He's always featured in defensive sides and very narrow set ups and yet has always excelled both going forwards and defensively.

This is very much a style and set up which is Italian as it gets and suits Zambrotta to a tee IMO.

 

[antohan]

But his question was in reply to you implying his team could be 2 up AND bossing possession.

No doubting Raees' team is strong but your original post made it sound like they could come back from two-down ..... against a great side ..... (with Neeskens to help the defence if needed) ..... with less possession .... AND while not conceding to a front 4 of Laudrup, Stoichkov, Kubala and Romario (who have already scored two)?

From your initial wording, that seemed a huge stretch... and unless Raees had the referee from the Barca/PSG match, couldn't see it.

I said could score 1/2, never said anything about no reply (the 2 I was thinking more along the lines of staying ahead).

And yes, they would have more possession, albeit not the tiki taka snooze sort we are used to. The Dream Team mixed it up a lot more and switched to a direct style sooner or later, they never had the patience Xavi had to pass the ball 30 times with nothing happening at all. They didn't use possession as a defensive tactic in the same way and therefore didn't control games in the same way.

You always had the feeling they could score 5 or suddenly concede two or three out of nowhere. Exciting, great to watch, superb to rack up points in a league format, but a dangerous way to go about things in a one off game against a great GOAT heavy side. While Laudrup being out certainly influenced their CL Final against Milan, I was never hugely optimistic about Barca's chances in it.

Concede first and you almost definitely lost, score first and you were far from being out of the woods. It's a bit lop sided that, don't you think?

 

[antohan]

His side is built to retain possession? That is a very weird way of looking at it, I wasnt old enough to watch the dream team but we both saw how pep's side defended by simply suffocating the opposition by possession.

See above, completely different sides.

 

[antohan]

@Raees

I really like Zambrotta and would have picked him myself if he was a year older. However, I would have used him supporting a winger/inside forward. Both your wing backs have such big jobs and I don't feel they're elite enough compared to Skizzo's team.

Not elite enough to impact the game despite not facing a fullback at all? Interesting.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

delaying my vote for hours now as i love skizzo team and its a fantastic remake but would be unfair to raees if i didnt vote because i think he has a slight advantage.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Somebody break the tie.

There will be mo penos. Just a coin toss.

Start praying.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

There's a reason there's no first name of the goalkeeper, and that's to just hope everyone assumes it's Gigi.

Heh, yes.

Go with «Maldini» and hope nobody realizes it's Cesare you're fielding.

I vaguely recalled the draft theme when browsing the lineups, so I actually suspected something was up before reading your post - pure scan voters will obviously think it's Gigi, though.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Skizzo I've done plenty of research of Kubala in the past and it's very enchanting story, especially in those times with Franco and off field antics. He's really quality player and one of the best in his era.

In regards to your team IMO your front for is spot on. In their favorite positions and I really like the synergy between them, whilst being on the same wavelength and carrying the Barca core.

Laudrup finally has the central stage in an all time draft and he absolutely deserves it. Love the triangles in your midfield as well - a cornerstone in Cruyff tactics and positionall and in possession it would be a sight to see.

Luisito would probably play a more restricted role and more in his Inter period rather than early Barca where he was more of a #10/SS. Neeskens and Luis Enrique provide a pretty good work rate and are industrious enough to keep the press and get the ball back. Probably I'd have a holder instead of DLP tho when playing against Raees's team as he's also well set up for counter and most likely his wing backs will pull Neeskens/Enrique wide to cover(with the help of Stoichkov).

On @Raees - well equipped to his strengths and counter attack whilst crosses in the box makes sense considering Gullt/Nordahl and Zambrotta/Gerets as providers. Schiaffino can pretty well link the midfield with attack and I don't see any gaps there - he's in his favorite role whilst Redondo(known for making deep runs) and Desailly provide the stage.

All in all it's a question of whether Skizzo's team would capitalize their possession advantage and whether they will also keep their back line solid enough not to give Raees's forwards many chances.

 

[MJJ]

If you want to talk about easier routes to goal, don't be caught thinking that it's Gigi Buffon in goal back there.

While Lorenzo Buffon was no mug, I'll share with you an excerpt from his Wiki page since it seemed to help for Zambrotta up there..



While he still made a few hundred appearances for Milan, he's by no means the Buffon you'd want in goal, given the choice.

There's a reason there's no first name of the goalkeeper, and that's to just hope everyone assumes it's Gigi.

Thats just dirty. Changed my vote.

 

[harms]

There's a reason there's no first name of the goalkeeper, and that's to just hope everyone assumes it's Gigi.

Cheap trick though, really. Not like picking Dream Team's Eusebio and claim that he is the real one, but still

 

[Ecstatic]

I never vote in function of the gk. I expect Milan to have several top gk in their history, including buffon no?

 

[Moby]

And we also saw how Cruyff's/Pep's team and Rijkaard's teams for that matter struggled against sides like Milan/Chelsea/Inter.

Deep set sides, with great defences and fluid, physically powerful forwards.

Pretty much this.

Skizzo's team is an excellent remake but Raees team just looks like their kryptonite here.

 

[2mufc0]

I thought it was the real Buffon there's nothing in his writeup clarifying it either.

 

[antohan]

Thats just dirty. Changed my vote.

Cheap trick though, really. Not like picking Dream Team's Eusebio and claim that he is the real one, but still

It's been done several times before. I remember @diarm fielding Baresi and some fool kept banging on about him despite me clarifying it was Giuseppe several times

Facchetti, Schiaffino, Cubillas and Nordahl stopped by Gary Neville, Giuseppe Baresi and Sol Campbell. Only in a draft poll.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

He wasn't a bad keeper, of course, but that's hardly the point.

Cesare was excellent too. But hardly GOAT territory.

Makes less difference with GKs, granted, but it's obviously a dirty trick.

ETA Should be a standard rule, btw. If it's not THE player you're fielding, you make this clear beyond any possible misunderstanding.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

dick move no doubt.

 

[Raees]

you're all a bunch of idiots - I did it by complete accident! jeez.. I wouldn't even have the brain power to bloody come up with a plan to sell it as Gigi Buffon. I used single names for Desailly, Redondo, Zambrotta as well just due to aesthetics. Didn't even think you would get it confused for Gigi when it is clear he has never played for Milan.

My team is strong enough already without having to resort to such shit.

FWIW Lorenzo Buffon is considered to be a Milanese legend, and one of the pioneers of Italian goalkeepers becoming the best in Europe.

Lorenzo Buffon is legendary Italian keeper. He's regarded as one of the greatest Italian keepers, had excellent positioning on the line, good shot stopper and reflexes, very strong physically and mentally. Buffon started his career at a young age at AC Milan. Here he quickly became first-choice goalkeeper and was able to win his second season in 1950/51 the Scudetto. As a result, he was at the gate of the Milan Canal in the 1950s, where were the three Swedish exceptional artist Gunnar Gren, Gunnar Nordahl and Nils Liedholm to the service provider. This trio should get the result by the name of Gre-No-Li celebrity. This team won the Italian championship in the seasons 1954/55, 1956/57 and 1958/59.

Buffon is widely regarded as one of the greatest goalkeepers of his generation, and as one of Italy's greatest ever goalkeepers.[1][3] Alongside the legendary goalkeeperLev Yashin, he was notably chosen to represent the FIFA All-Star squad during the 1960s.[4]
An athletic yet efficient and reliable goalkeeper, Buffon was known in particular for his positional sense, handling, acrobatic saves, and spectacular shot-stopping abilities, which earnt him the nickname Lorenzo il Magnifico;

http://www.pesmitidelcalcio.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2197

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/944114-ac-milan-greatest-rossoneri-xi-of-all-time

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Doesn't matter if we're idiots or not, people assume it's Gigi, evidently (even people who know the draft premise, it seems).

Is it significant? Probably not. Would be odd if people voted for you because of Gigi. If anything you'll lose votes because people think you did it on purpose.

Either way, it's obviously a good idea to be precise about who your players are. Like I said, it should be a standard rule from now on.

 

[Raees]

Doesn't matter if we're idiots or not, people assume it's Gigi, evidently (even people who know the draft premise, it seems).

Is it significant? Probably not. Would be odd if people voted for you because of Gigi. If anything you'll lose votes because people think you did it on purpose.

Either way, it's obviously a good idea to be precise about who your players are. Like I said, it should be a standard rule from now on.

Bringing it up is one thing as you were right to do so as I didn't realise myself but going on with dick move etc when I genuinely didn't realise is not on.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Bringing it up is one thing as you were right to do so as I didn't realise myself but going on with dick move etc when I genuinely didn't realise is not on.

Well, I'm happy to take your word for it - but it's hardly outrageous to suspect a bit of gamesmanship in these drafts, the very thing has been done before.

Anyway, again - make it a rule, simple.

 

[Skizzo]

Bringing it up is one thing as you were right to do so as I didn't realise myself but going on with dick move etc when I genuinely didn't realise is not on.

My original point on it was just to point it out to someone who commented.

I don't necessarily think you did it to try and "pull one over" on everyone, but there was obviously a bit of room for confusion there that I wanted to address.

Like if I got Jordi Cruyff on the team sheet as just Cruyff or J. Cruyff

 

[Enigma_87]

Considering how high GK's are usually rated in these drafts as a difference maker I really doubt @Raees was doing this intentionally.

Think we had even had Goalie before in the starting line up.

 

[Raees]

My original point on it was just to point it out to someone who commented.

I don't necessarily think you did it to try and "pull one over" on everyone, but there was obviously a bit of room for confusion there that I wanted to address.

Like if I got Jordi Cruyff on the team sheet as just Cruyff or J. Cruyff

You're the opposition manager, so well within your rights to bring it up or even accuse me. Its just I felt third parties coming in and accusing me of stuff, when I didn't even realise ..was abit much.

Anyway, lets not derail what has been an excellent match so far.

 

[diarm]

Facchetti, Schiaffino, Cubillas and Nordahl stopped by Gary Neville, Giuseppe Baresi and Sol Campbell. Only in a draft poll.

I recall a tactical masterclass in which a team of big names were stifled and nullified by the better drilled minnow in your classic underdog prevails story!

There were also suspicions that derogatory comments made by his manager in the past had a negative impact on one of your star attackers!

 

[Skizzo]

Glad to see some discussion picked up, although shame it was while I was sleeping

As far as @Raees team, I can't nitpick at much as it's a solid team with great players throughout. Well set up and pretty clear in their instructions.

Our idea is to come blasting out of the gates. Hit an early goal or two and from that point let the game open up.

The benefit of our team is that even if we do go a goal down, there's goals throughout our team with any of the front 4. Laudrup was a master of sliding the ball through to an attacker, wrong footing the defense. Kubala could beat a man off the dribble. Stoichkov and Romario with their power and pace.

That's not counting the goals from midfield from these two

 

[Skizzo]

You're the opposition manager, so well within your rights to bring it up or even accuse me. Its just I felt third parties coming in and accusing me of stuff, when I didn't even realise ..was abit much.

Anyway, lets not derail what has been an excellent match so far.

Yeah it would be a shame for that to take center stage with everything else available on show

 

[Skizzo]

Yeah. The romantic in me sees Skizzo wiping the floor, the pragmatist reckons Raees might just grind this out. Ultimately it may simply be a question of systems and come down to the defensive fragility of Cruyff's 3-4-3.

As far as the set up in a 343, yeah there's certain aspects that can't really be adjusted too much.

Keep in mind though that we've replaced two of the hybrid cb/fb with two monster defenders to improve the security at the back.

On top of that, we added two midfielders who'll run themselves into the ground all game to work for the team in Neeskens and Enrique, and a lot of the defensive fragility you speak of isn't as obvious.

The players we added take nothing away from how the system would work, and increase the solidity by a large margin.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

You're the opposition manager, so well within your rights to bring it up or even accuse me. Its just I felt third parties coming in and accusing me of stuff, when I didn't even realise ..was abit much.

Anyway, lets not derail what has been an excellent match so far.

Well, you have to look from the third party perspective, we dont know if its intentional or not so what we see is 70% of the team with full names but the most important one with just a surname.
Doubt anyone took it seriously though, just a bit of harmless banter....

 

[antohan]

I recall a tactical masterclass in which a team of big names were stifled and nullified by the better drilled minnow in your classic underdog prevails story!

There were also suspicions that derogatory comments made by his manager in the past had a negative impact on one of your star attackers!

Absolutely, everyone loves an underdog. Just clarifying, you didn't even hide the fact it was Giuseppe Baresi, it was right there on the teamsheet. For some reason this geezer completely overlooked the first name.

BTW @Raees, I empathise with the frustration. People in two minds or having no substantive arguments to make just latch onto this kind of shit to justify the vote, same with the Nordahl episode diarm alludes to above and plenty other times. It would be a shame as, as you rightly point out, anyone understanding the theme must know that can't be Gigi.

 

[antohan]

As far as the set up in a 343, yeah there's certain aspects that can't really be adjusted too much.

Keep in mind though that we've replaced two of the hybrid cb/fb with two monster defenders to improve the security at the back.

On top of that, we added two midfielders who'll run themselves into the ground all game to work for the team in Neeskens and Enrique, and a lot of the defensive fragility you speak of isn't as obvious.

The players we added take nothing away from how the system would work, and increase the solidity by a large margin.

As you know, I think they do, but understand the rationale.

Bottomline is that like Brazil 82, the Clockwork Orange, the Mighty Magyars or the free-scoring Brazil of the 50s, the most entertaining sides can be shot down by boring pragmatists. In fact, that's the only thing that ever shoots them down.

Your team would win the league, Raees' would win the cup final.

 

[milemuncher777]

Voted Raees but changing my vote now because of GK thingy.

 

[Serendib]

Agreed - I'm a fan of drafts but that's just underhanded and dishonest.

 

[RedTiger]

Goalkeepers don't mean much in these drafts, if you guys are still taking votes then I'll vote raees. It looks like the mistake was down to aesthetics.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Agreed - I'm a fan of drafts but that's just underhanded and dishonest.

How is it dishonest? His keeper is called Buffon.

Goalkeepers don't mean much in these drafts, if you guys are still taking votes then I'll vote raees. It looks like the mistake was down to aesthetics.

and we should change this because its wrong, keeper is as important as any other player, if not more important then some.....