The 4-Way Draft R1: idmanager vs P-Nut

[Ecstatic]

I've read it and agree with bits of it. However, things like the 2 inside forwards causing headaches doesn't really stand up as it just allows my defence to become really narrow. Also Seedorf and Di Stefano are more than capable of dropping into those areas alongside Makelele and make the midfield area solid as a rock.

Each team has its pros and cons. You have Di Stefano. He has Baggio/Meazza who can play between the lines and deliver assists for the pacey Eto'o. On the wings, Roberto Carlos & Figo.

Channels

-- Roberto Carlos ---- Baggio --- Eto'o --- Meazza ----- Figo
-- Gento/Marcelo ---- Seedorf --Puskas --- Di Stefano ----- RObben

 

[idmanager]

However, things like the 2 inside forwards causing headaches doesn't really stand up

It won Italy 2 world cups. Ferrari and Meazza ran riot and were the most important players in the attack. Baggio and Meazza are based on this, especially Meazza, with a fast striker upfront and a winger on the right, who was perhaps the most important player for Italy in these world cups. Mentioned in the OP as well.

My 2 inside forwards with the 2 players on the flanks to cross are the closest I could get to make a modern remake of that 1934-38 Italy double WC winning formation.

 

[P-Nut]

It won Italy 2 world cups. Ferrari and Meazza ran riot and were the most important players in the attack. Baggio and Meazza are based on this, especially Meazza, with a fast striker upfront and a winger on the right, who was perhaps the most important player for Italy in these world cups. Mentioned in the OP as well.

My 2 inside forwards with the 2 players on the flanks to cross are the closest I could get to that 1934-38 Italy double WC winning formation.

Oh yeah I know it can be highly effective just against the set up I've got you would have been better using the width as they are my weaker defenders compared to the middle.

 

[Ecstatic]

I think drafts work best when you have a pre decided set of voters (known people who are obviously aware and judge in a proper way based on past drafts) with a template for tactics. For example, my opponent I am sure has not put too much interest into how I would setup shop. Read the tactics.

Doesn't matter anymore, but it does impact games. The under dog trying to out maneuver a squad with better players with tactics doesn't really work out here I guess.

Voters are generally conservative. All the players are great. Consequently, if somebody makes a "controversial choice" or have under-appreciated players, then the result can be one-sided.

Do the research "draft final" and tick the box "search titles only", and read the different threads.

It isn't easy to have flexibility in the setup:

1. you have to guess the starting 11 of the opposing team
2. you have 14 players chosen before the draw

 

[idmanager]

Oh yeah I know it can be highly effective just against the set up I've got you would have been better using the width as they are my weaker defenders compared to the middle.

I am not sure how your fullbacks are not being attacked. Carlos+Baggio is going to be very difficult for Camacho to handle.
Figo + Meazza on Marcelo is a joke IMO and thought would be my best and easiest route to a goal..

 

[idmanager]

Voters are generally conservative. All the players are great. Consequently, if somebody makes a "controversial choice" or have under-appreciated players, then the result can be one-sided.

J have actively watched all the game threads till now and the scanners spoil the fun. In fact, this thread itself has enough regulars not going through the tactics. I loved the drafting and new themes of drafts here, but the voting and analysis/discussion here is very underwhelming.

My problem isn't with players being under appreciated. That is completely understandable and okay. I didn't expect to win anyways. Just expected people to read before voting. Or at least not ignore stuff based on arrows.

 

[idmanager]

Anyways, am off to bed. Thanks for the guys who voted and @Edgar Allan Pillow for including me as part of this. Congrats @P-Nut0712 , hope you win it all till the final.

 

[antohan]

That is fair enough but I dont see any point in reading the rest of your post when you dont think its necessary to read a short write up before voting. No offence. Please dont mind.

Nothing personal. I don't bother because anything relevant invariably gets mentioned in the thread, which I do read and reply/contribute to.

 

[Ecstatic]

J have actively watched all the game threads till now and the scanners spoil the fun. In fact, this thread itself has enough regulars not going through the tactics. I loved the drafting and new themes of drafts here, but the voting and analysis/discussion here is very underwhelming.

My problem isn't with players being under appreciated. That is completely understandable and okay. I didn't expect to win anyways. Just expected people to read before voting. Or at least not ignore stuff based on arrows.

I understand your frustration. 1st draft: huge enthusiasm and you expect from the other posters a lot of contributions

I was like you

Now, my write-up are much more shorter.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Good effort @idmanager .... I think the arrows help (I thought @Ecstatic was your Asst).

And you've spelled your player's names correctly....

But still like @P-Nut0712 side. (Edit.... as you say, that front three alone is deadly but the rest of the team looks to work individually and as a team)

 

[Ecstatic]

I would have preferred something like that:

----- Tardelli ------------- Figo
---------------- Sammer
R Carlos ----------------------- Zanetti or Maicon
----------- Passarella--- Bergomi-----

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I loved the drafting and new themes of drafts here, but the voting and analysis/discussion here is very underwhelming.

One of the reasons, I hate to schedule matches on weekends. And I'm forced to have 3 matches today which dilutes the discussions.

Next time, play on weekdays and it'll be much better quality overall.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

However, things like the 2 inside forwards causing headaches doesn't really stand up as it just allows my defence to become really narrow.

How is it narrow with Carlos and Figo there? And what's wrong with 2 IF's?

Personally I thought idmanager's team reminded me of Grande Inter at least they way it's built (not saying he's using the same tactics here).

Carlos is perfect for width from deep and will link well with Baggio. Burgninch being more defensive is balanced with Figo up ahead. Sammer (who's a capable DM) and Tardelli have enough passing range to keep the ball moving. Meazza and IR and Baggio is IL are perfect for the role. I frankly don't see anything tactically incorrect in that side.

My only concern is that he'd find it difficult to bridge the midfield gap in middle. A pivot like Monti/Makelele in place of Sammer would make that more balanced imo and a LCB so he can move Passarella to middle and it'd be perfect. Sammer's good for that role, but it's not his peak.


......................................Figo....
...........Pivot DM.....Tardelli........
Carlos......................................
....LCB.....Passarella....Burgnich...

 

[Ecstatic]

------------- Peiro
Corso----------------------- Jair
---- Miramontes --- Mazzola
------------- Bedin

A modern translation would something like that no?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

------------- Peiro
Corso----------------------- Jair
---- Miramontes --- Mazzola
------------- Bedin

A modern translation would something like that no?

Close enough. Looks like the old version of Xaviesta, just more attacking huh

 

[P-Nut]

Not narrow in general @Edgar Allan Pillow but not fully attacking the weakest areas if you know what I mean?


Out and out wingers and attacking full backs would have put more pressure on them areas.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Not narrow in general @Edgar Allan Pillow but not fully attacking the weakest areas if you know what I mean?


Out and out wingers and attacking full backs would have put more pressure on them areas.

It's just a different tactics. Like a 442 diamond without width. I reckon idm is playing a lop sided formation.

 

[P-Nut]

It's just a different tactics. Like a 442 diamond without width. I reckon idm is playing a lop sided formation.

Oh yeah I know just saying that I don't think this tactic for this match up was ideal.

 

[MJJ]

No, I didn't because I know I don't like the back four whatever the instructions. Carlos-Passarella on the left and I have a very long history. I rate Passarella as a defender but don't see what's the point in playing him in a suboptimal setup for him. Same with Bergomi here, I rate him as CB particularly if he is covering an attacking fullback.

So you essentially have four excellent players, and they can perform to the instructions you laid out, but they aren't as good then and certainly add to less than the sum of parts.



I agree with you there in that it shouldn't just be the shiny names. On a sidenote, that's exactly what doesn't sit right with me with your defence while I can see that Real side working straight away (bar Robben, your Figo would be a better fit).

Funny enough, back when writeups had a character-limit upsets were more common. I must have won a fair few games on the back of not a lot more than "X has better players so I'm parking the bus and hitting him on the break all game long" and people assessing the likelihood of that working based on 3-4 key points.

The moment people started writing walls of text it completely went out of the window. If it's important it should jump at you on the teamsheet or over the course of the discussion.

But but what about the managers instructions and weeks spent in training?

 

[antohan]

I loved the drafting and new themes of drafts here, but the voting and analysis/discussion here is very underwhelming.

One reason I don't draft any more. We're discussing variations of the same thing over and over again. As I said, I've argued that exact Carlos-Passarella combo extensively at least twice yet this is probably the fifth time I see it.

You get a bit fed up after a while. When we kicked off we had decades drafts, constrained pool, same eras, maybe 4 per year... plenty to discuss.

Now we are doing it monthly and, while the mechanics are innovative and keep the drafting fun, the discussions get tiresome. A few players here or there get renewed praise, tactical preferences change (I was lambasted in my first draft for a wingerless 4-3-3 with the pivot dropping to unleash the fullbacks as wingbacks ).

Neither change at the same pace as we keep having drafts though.

 

[antohan]

But but what about the managers instructions and weeks spent in training?

I don't have a problem with his tactics per se, just with the balance in a defence facing Puskas and ADS.

To be fair, id makes some good points, but they get lost in a lot of other stuff and, ultimately, I just know I'm never going to vote for that defence.

 

[green_smiley]

Don't really think Puskas is the best man to lead the list e in a 4231.

Yeah, but Di Stefano can move up and join the attack, so it should be fine

 

[idmanager]

I would have preferred something like that:

----- Tardelli ------------- Figo
---------------- Sammer
R Carlos ----------------------- Zanetti or Maicon
----------- Passarella--- Bergomi-----

I did consider that and was planning to use it if I won in one of my next games. But for this game with his wingers, this would have been a really bad idea.

Yeah, but Di Stefano can move up and join the attack, so it should be fine

Stefano is going to be playing a lot more deeper here and would hardly be in the 2nd striker position, considering he is the creative fulcrum of the team.
Maybe if it was a midfield of Seedorf and Modric, Di Stefano would almost be a second striker. Here, no.

 

[idmanager]

I wanted to experiment with this lineup too with 2 liberos who would take turns based on the situation to go forward and join the attack, but chickened out.

 

[SirMattBugsby]

I think @idmanager did a great job tactically. He's locked down the right wing defensively in numbers, and banked on Roberto Carlos to do the same on the left. In doing so, he has freed up a body to contribute in attack because of which his attack looks too much for even Makelele and Co. to deal with.

It's straight out of Pep's book of numerical, qualitative and positional superiority. I think Conte does something similar at Chelsea as well. Yup, fair to say I'm sold.

 

[idmanager]

I think @idmanager did a great job tactically. He's locked down the right wing defensively in numbers, and banked on Roberto Carlos to do the same on the left. In doing so, he has freed up a body to contribute in attack because of which his attack looks too much for even Makelele and Co. to deal with.

It's straight out of Pep's book of numerical, qualitative and positional superiority. I think Conte does something similar at Chelsea as well. Yup, fair to say I'm sold.

Thanks for your kind words, Sir Matt

 

[Gio]

Wow, did not expect the arrows to have that effect on a game considering they are the simplest to way to show the zones of play the players would be impacting.

Wasn't too confident going into the match considering the Madrid attack I was facing but was looking for some discussion or pointers beyond the arrows.

Lots of arrows and lopsidedness tend to leak votes. But that's just fluff, and while the Passarella/Carlos stuff has been said a thousand times, the idea behind the defence shuffling across makes sense. Assume Bergomi would pick up Puskas and Passarella would cover round, which makes sense and plays to their strengths. Your retention of the ball would be somewhat stuffy on the right-hand side of your defence. On the other side though, Carlos would be in his element, overlapping Baggio and stretching the game. Generally prefer Sammer moving forwards rather than retreating, but a Sammer/Tardelli partnership is full of graft, tactical intelligence and resilience, which is precisely what you'd want when the opposition are sporting the Don. Further up, Eto'o's pace in behind could be worth a goal.

 

[idmanager]

Lots of arrows and lopsidedness tend to leak votes. But that's just fluff, and while the Passarella/Carlos stuff has been said a thousand times, the idea behind the defence shuffling across makes sense. Assume Bergomi would pick up Puskas and Passarella would cover round, which makes sense and plays to their strengths. Your retention of the ball would be somewhat stuffy on the right-hand side of your defence. On the other side though, Carlos would be in his element, overlapping Baggio and stretching the game. Generally prefer Sammer moving forwards rather than retreating, but a Sammer/Tardelli partnership is full of graft, tactical intelligence and resilience, which is precisely what you'd want when the opposition are sporting the Don. Further up, Eto'o's pace in behind could be worth a goal.

Thanks for your analysis.
Yes, that was something which felt very natural with Burgnich comfortable at RCB too and if not for the 'Passarella can only play as a libero' prejudiced mindset, it would have been easier to sell.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Thanks for your analysis.
Yes, that was something which felt very natural with Burgnich comfortable at RCB too and if not for the 'Passarella can only play as a libero' prejudiced mindset, it would have been easier to sell.

Hard luck, mate. You had a great team for a first timer to the drafts.

congrats @P-Nut0712 !

 

[idmanager]

Hard luck, mate. You had a great team for a first timer to the drafts.

congrats @P-Nut0712 !

Thanks @Edgar Allan Pillow

 

[P-Nut]

Yeah good game @idmanager you did better than I did in my first game anyway

 

[idmanager]

Yeah good game @idmanager you did better than I did in my first game anyway

Thanks mate, was fun playing against you. And congrats as I have earlier mentioned. Good luck