The 4-Way Draft - QF: Skizzo vs P-Nut

[Skizzo]

@Skizzo Neeskens ever played as a DM? Maybe some footage of him there? I only know him as a b2b and AM tbh

He started as a right back, before moving further upfield. A few sources list him either as having played there, or having the skill set to do so.

steel-hard midfielder was a tireless runner yet also had nice technique... he was great at pressuring opponents to regain possession too. "He was worth two men in midfield,"

Neeskens transformed his position to central midfielder because of his tireless running, great technical skills and scored his fair share of goals. He was a mercurial midfielder who could fulfill any role – ball winner, creator or scorer. Always one of the fittest players on the pitch.

He was tasked with marking Rainer Bonhof in the '74 finals, as he had been supplying Muller with some deadly passes. From what I recall, that same WC he'd often kind of float between an 8 and a 6, as the games progressed.

While it is a limit to his regular game, the main thinking here was we get his all-action style in an area of the pitch where he can disrupt the GOAT's on the opposition. Also, as a secondary instruction, to at times get beyond Xavi on that right channel while Koeman can step up into the space he occupied. It works even better for is since there's no width in the opposition attack, we can pinch that space when and if Koeman does step out, and Neeskens pushes on.

 

[P-Nut]

Seems people are getting a bit caught up on the no right winger with a defensive fullback.

I'll explain my thinking.

Camacho was great defensively. I don't want him as an attacking presence on that side at all. I want him focused on tracking Stoichkov. My attacking down that side will come from Seedorf breaking forwards and Di Stefano has full license to drift. As mentioned in my OP most of my attacking will come down the left or through the middle.

I could have positioned Stefano on the RW slot playing much like Mata does for ourselves as he'll have a completely free role in attacking.

However, I felt the need to represent that our main defensive tactic would be to overload the midfield and that is when Stefano will be stationed more centrally and allowing Seedorf to help out on the right IF attack after attack comes solely down that side.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Ecstatic Was that Gento video at original speed or was it sped up? He looked insanely fast.

 

[Ecstatic]

Would have preferred Robben starting over Modric here.

If the idea is to have a great right-winger, then Robben should be the #1 option. Amancio is rather underwhelming.

Otherwise, if the strategy was to have a strong midfield and have the possession: then Kopa & Figo are great options

P-Nut really should have gone for Breitner, I didn't understand why he took Seedorf over him.

Didn't know he played for Real Madrid

 

[P-Nut]

If the idea is to have a great right-winger, then Robben should be the #1 option. Amancio is rather underwhelming.

Otherwise, if the strategy was to have a strong midfield and have the possession: then Kopa & Figo are great options



Didn't know he played for Real Madrid

I was planning on picking Figo up until I realised the 1st 2 picks were blocked.

Breitner I wanted but didn't pick him up in time.

 

[Ecstatic]

@Ecstatic Was that Gento video at original speed or was it sped up? He looked insanely fast.

Good question but he was really so fast.

https://books.google.fr/books?id=2l...MGCl0Q6AEIPTAB#v=onepage&q=gento fast&f=false

 

[idmanager]

That Gento video looks sped up to me too. Everone else looks fast too in that video.

 

[Ecstatic]

That Gento video looks sped up to me too. Everone else looks fast too in that video.

You're right. I'm watching another video about him

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Yeah, you can see that I haven't said "good" or "decent", but "memorable" (a bit tongue in cheek). The point still stands though, he was well-capable of playing on the right and was used there from time to time. To play him as a sole wing presence is a tactical mistake though, even on the left he needed a winger up front.

I have a philosophical problem with this as it essentially renders the whole "3 year peak" concept meaningless. I mean Camacho playing on the right "from time to time" and only doing "decent" somehow makes him worthy of being a all-time RB pick? That just seems utterly absurd to me.

Especially because the side a full back plays on makes a massive difference. Its not a trivial thing but pretty important. As a right footed left back in youth I know this. Its muscle memory and psychological habits. Reversing every split second reactionary decision from left to right is not something the human brain just reverses no problem.

Very few like Lahm can even play the opposite side to a relatively equal level and even then Lahm is not as top class at LB as he is at RB. And there are tonnes of examples here. Just this weekend Wenger played Hector Bellerin at LWB instead of his usual RWB and Bellerin didn't look remotely the same player as he did in his peak on the right.

So this logic of "he played a few games there from time to time and he did alright" really makes a mockery of trying to fairly judge all players on a 3 year peak. Camacho has NO 3 year peak as a RB. Full stop.

Sorry to rant, and I am not bitter about losing to fecking Camacho as a RB in an all-time final - well maybe a little bitter

 

[P-Nut]

I have a philosophical problem with this as it essentially renders the whole "3 year peak" concept meaningless. I mean Camacho playing on the right "from time to time" and only doing "decent" somehow makes him worthy of being a all-time RB pick? That just seems utterly absurd to me.

Especially because the side a full back plays on makes a massive difference. Its not a trivial thing but pretty important. As a right footed left back in youth I know this. Its muscle memory and psychological habits. Reversing every split second reactionary decision from left to right is not something the human brain just reverses no problem.

Very few like Lahm can even play the opposite side to a relatively equal level and even then Lahm is not as top class at LB as he is at RB. And there are tonnes of examples here. Just this weekend Wenger played Hector Bellerin at LWB instead of his usual RWB and Bellerin didn't look remotely the same player as he did in his peak on the right.

So this logic of "he played a few games there from time to time and he did alright" really makes a mockery of trying to fairly judge all players on a 3 year peak. Camacho has NO 3 year peak as a RB. Full stop.

Sorry to rant, and I am not bitter about losing to fecking Camacho as a RB in an all-time final - well maybe a little bitter

But that eliminates ever playing players out of position. If a player has the skills etc needed to play in a position you should be able to play them there without the only argument being 'but they've never played there'

It's not just this draft where I have brought this up, I'm sure I mentioned it in one of my first drafts despite it being the opposition manager that fielded the player out of position.

For me you have to look a little deeper into whether or not the player could adjust to it. Fair enough if you don't dig Camacho at RB in this specific game, however just judging players who are out of position based on never playing there is a bit of a copy out when we should be able to go deeper than that.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I think P-Nut has an advantage in the middle, but P-Nut's fullbacks make this difficult for himself. Hierro's lack of pace plus Camacho esp when facing tricky front trio....very very difficult to contain.

I came here eagerly to vote for P-Nut....

 

[P-Nut]

I think P-Nut has an advantage in the middle, but P-Nut's fullbacks make this difficult for himself. Hierro's lack of pace plus Camacho esp when facing tricky front trio....very very difficult to contain.

I came here eagerly to vote for P-Nut....

I think too much is being made of Camacho. No matter what criticism you throw at him he's solid defensively and that's what he's here for. Also he'll have Seedorf protecting him if needs be who is a monster in his own right.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I think too much is being made of Camacho. No matter what criticism you throw at him he's solid defensively and that's what he's here for. Also he'll have Seedorf protecting him if needs be who is a monster in his own right.

Not really. At this level, games would be decided by a fine margin. A fullback in a 442 diamond is unique since he has lot more offensive responsibilities than other formations. You can argue he's defensively solid, but lack of width will be a telling factor anyway. Though not Cafu, how would his attacking contribution be? Like Neville? Or Amoros? Not easy to get a picture in mind.

 

[Skizzo]

I think P-Nut has an advantage in the middle, but P-Nut's fullbacks make this difficult for himself. Hierro's lack of pace plus Camacho esp when facing tricky front trio....very very difficult to contain.

I came here eagerly to vote for P-Nut....

Never one to mince words were you

 

[Enigma_87]

Not really. At this level, games would be decided by a fine margin. A fullback in a 442 diamond is unique since he has lot more offensive responsibilities than other formations. You can argue he's defensively solid, but lack of width will be a telling factor anyway. Though not Cafu, how would his attacking contribution be? Like Neville? Or Amoros? Not easy to get a picture in mind.

Probably less than both.

Playing players out of position in all time draft is pretty tricky. Having no winger up front with a defensive full back is also where Skizzo gets advantage IMO.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

But that eliminates ever playing players out of position. If a player has the skills etc needed to play in a position you should be able to play them there without the only argument being 'but they've never played there'

It's not just this draft where I have brought this up, I'm sure I mentioned it in one of my first drafts despite it being the opposition manager that fielded the player out of position.

For me you have to look a little deeper into whether or not the player could adjust to it. Fair enough if you don't dig Camacho at RB in this specific game, however just judging players who are out of position based on never playing there is a bit of a copy out when we should be able to go deeper than that.

Switching sides on a fullback is a rather big difference albeit a subtle one. It requires specific traits that very, very few full backs have.

When I was playing for years as right-footed left back I occasionally got switched to play RB for a match and I noticed I was much worse as a RB. One thing that was obvious to coaches was as a left-back I could probably nick the ball off a winger cutting inside 3-4 times more frequently than I could on the opposite side. Same general move but from one side I was far more effective stopping it than the other side. I could read the variations on feints far easier on the left side than the right. Also my slide tackles were a bit quicker going to the left due to sliding that way much more in matches over the years (this was early 80s so slides were more important then)

The reason I figured over the years was that while the basic physical motion is the ostensibly the same, its reverse on each side and that makes a difference. Muscle memory, psychological and physical conditioning and the reverse spatial awareness do make a difference. Playing with the touchline to the your left for years and then switching to the touchline on the right makes a difference both psychologically and in reaction times.

Now you might say, but OneNil, you are awful and played in the equivalent to the super drunk pub league for kids. All true. But this is something I've been watching my whole life. And one thing I have noticed at every level, in every league is that full backs can't easily switch sides. I see it even last weekend! Or the past month both Oxlade-Cham and Bellerin were played in LWB and they don't look nearly as good as they do at RWB for a lot of subtle reasons.

Again, only a rare few full backs can play relatively equally on both sides of the pitch and even then Lahm loses a few subtle factors when on the left.
It would be extremely unrealistic (and unfair) to just assume a full back can switch sides and be at the same level. Camacho is not one of those rare full backs that has shown he can play on both sides of the pitch equally. When it comes to Camacho the evidence is he is nowhere near an all-time historical level right back. Thus his credentials as left-back shouldn't come into play when judging him on a 3-year peak when he is on the pitch as right back.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

^ I should probably be tagging @Ecstatic in these posts as they are probably more leftover opinions from Camacho as RB

 

[P-Nut]

Not really. At this level, games would be decided by a fine margin. A fullback in a 442 diamond is unique since he has lot more offensive responsibilities than other formations. You can argue he's defensively solid, but lack of width will be a telling factor anyway. Though not Cafu, how would his attacking contribution be? Like Neville? Or Amoros? Not easy to get a picture in mind.

100% less than both.

If Seedorf had made a burst down the middle-right channel then Camacho would simply back him up. Never going past him but more being an out ball if he thought he was about to lose it. On receiving the ball he'd just recycle it centrally or play a ball for Seedorf to latch back onto continuing his run.

His one and only job is to defend and always be in a position where he cannot be caught too far up field.

Although a totally different position and skill set needed think Herrera against Chelsea last season in terms of offensive output. (OK I know he got an assist but it wasn't part of our plan for his game)

 

[P-Nut]

Switching sides on a fullback is a rather big difference albeit a subtle one. It requires specific traits that very, very few full backs have.

When I was playing for years as right-footed left back I occasionally got switched to play RB for a match and I noticed I was much worse as a RB. One thing that was obvious to coaches was as a left-back I could probably nick the ball off a winger cutting inside 3-4 times more frequently than I could on the opposite side. Same general move but from one side I was far more effective stopping it than the other side. I could read the variations on feints far easier on the left side than the right. Also my slide tackles were a bit quicker going to the left due to sliding that way much more in matches over the years (this was early 80s so slides were more important then)

The reason I figured over the years was that while the basic physical motion is the ostensibly the same, its reverse on each side and that makes a difference. Muscle memory, psychological and physical conditioning and the reverse spatial awareness do make a difference. Playing with the touchline to the your left for years and then switching to the touchline on the right makes a difference both psychologically and in reaction times.

Now you might say, but OneNil, you are awful and played in the equivalent to the super drunk pub league for kids. All true. But this is something I've been watching my whole life. And one thing I have noticed at every level, in every league is that full backs can't easily switch sides. I see it even last weekend! Or the past month both Oxlade-Cham and Bellerin were played in LWB and they don't look nearly as good as they do at RWB for a lot of subtle reasons.

Again, only a rare few full backs can play relatively equally on both sides of the pitch and even then Lahm loses a few subtle factors when on the left.
It would be extremely unrealistic (and unfair) to just assume a full back can switch sides and be at the same level. Camacho is not one of those rare full backs that has shown he can play on both sides of the pitch equally. When it comes to Camacho the evidence is he is nowhere near an all-time historical level right back. Thus his credentials as left-back shouldn't come into play when judging him on a 3-year peak when he is on the pitch as right back.

The problem with this though is that I don't expect him to be as good. On the left he could contribute to attacks and support the attacking phases. Here his whole concentration is on defending and that alone.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

who ever wins the possession battle in this one will win the game IMO
p-nut is extremely unlucky to have Thuram against Gento, specially when he sees the other defenders in that team. Saying that, he will need Di Stefano and Puskas to win them the game and to do saw they will have to dominate the game to ensure Carlos and Seedorf stretch the pitch as wide as possible, Gento to support Puskas inside so Don can do his magic.

On the other hand skizzo needs in a classic Barca situation, needs to dominate the possession so he can hide and protect an underwhelming defence at this level. Surprised you didnt went for Busquets in the first drafting just in case you move away from the Dream Team. Busquets at DM with Neeskens instead of Kubala and you would have easily this in the bag.

 

[Skizzo]

who ever wins the possession battle in this one will win the game IMO
p-nut is extremely unlucky to have Thuram against Gento, specially when he sees the other defenders in that team. Saying that, he will need Di Stefano and Puskas to win them the game and to do saw they will have to dominate the game to ensure Carlos and Seedorf stretch the pitch as wide as possible, Gento to support Puskas inside so Don can do his magic.

On the other hand skizzo needs in a classic Barca situation, needs to dominate the possession so he can hide and protect an underwhelming defence at this level. Surprised you didnt went for Busquets in the first drafting just in case you move away from the Dream Team. Busquets at DM with Neeskens instead of Kubala and you would have easily this in the bag.

Neeskens up in the RW/RM? I'd be more inclined to tuck Thuram in at cb and play him at RB.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Neeskens up in the RW/RM? I'd be more inclined to tuck Thuram in at cb and play him at RB.

yeah, defensive wise great option for Carlos and offensive wise he can play it without problems as he played in wide areas before and even when played centrally he often drifted to the right. With his ability on the ball and specially his movement of the ball he would be a huge asset but no need to go there as its a debate "what if".....

 

[Skizzo]

yeah, defensive wise great option for Carlos and offensive wise he can play it without problems as he played in wide areas before and even when played centrally he often drifted to the right. With his ability on the ball and specially his movement of the ball he would be a huge asset but no need to go there as its a debate "what if".....

Yeah I see what you mean. Won't sidetrack the actual match with a hypothetical, but would be an interesting discussion to have at some point

 

[Skizzo]

Never a bad time to leave more videos of Xavi. For @Moby if nothing else

 

[Skizzo]

And some of the Football's Greatest video collections of players on display here.

 

[P-Nut]

And some of the Football's Greatest video collections of players on display here.

God you know it's one sided when the opposition is posting videos praising your players.

 

[Skizzo]

God you know it's one sided when the opposition is posting videos praising your players.

it's hardly one sided.

And besides, I left out the ones of Puskas and Di Stefano

 

[P-Nut]

it's hardly one sided.

And besides, I left out the ones of Puskas and Di Stefano

It's alright I'm not quite insulted yet

 

[Moby]

Never a bad time to leave more videos of Xavi. For @Moby if nothing else

Was actually going to quote you when you said he's "perhaps" one of the best ever... The man's the GOAT!.

 

[Skizzo]

Was actually going to quote you when you said he's "perhaps" one of the best ever... The man's the GOAT!.

I didn't want to oversell anything. Although I almost did quote you from the main thread when you commented on Paz picking him.

 

[Ecstatic]

Pirlo-Laudrup-Xavi would be a fantastic midfield: the dream for any fast striker

 

[Ecstatic]

 

[Pat_Mustard]

The relative weakness of Pnut's right side decided this for me. I've actually come around to the setup a bit, but not enough. Seedorf is a good fit for that uber-industrious gig of supporting Camacho defensively and providing width going forward, but he's still going to be stretched too far. Either he spends alot of the game out wide and the benefits of the compact diamond are greatly diluted, or else the team seriously lacks width going forward. A full-time role as an RM in a 4-4-1-1 would have been a more realistic assigment IMO:

Seedorf----Modric----Makelele----Gento
-----------------Di Stefano
-------------------Puskas

 

[P-Nut]

The relative weakness of Pnut's right side decided this for me. I've actually come around to the setup a bit, but not enough. Seedorf is a good fit for that uber-industrious gig of supporting Camacho defensively and providing width going forward, but he's still going to be stretched too far. Either he spends alot of the game out wide and the benefits of the compact diamond are greatly diluted, or else the team seriously lacks width going forward. A full-time role as an RM in a 4-4-1-1 would have been a more realistic assigment IMO:

Seedorf----Modric----Makelele----Gento
-----------------Di Stefano
-------------------Puskas

Yeah I can probably agree with that it's just something I didn't consider.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Pirlo-Laudrup-Xavi would be a fantastic midfield: the dream for any fast striker

Yeah it would.... which is why I picked them (and Ruud) in the FM Legends Draft before fully understanding the age thing.

Ended up with a young/decent Laudrup and the others still in nursery school.

P.S. good teams, think Pnut wins a lot of draft games with that team but maybe not this one.

 

[Skizzo]

Good game @Tuppet great team you put together, just cursed by lack of a quality RB it seems.

 

[Tuppet]

Good game @Tuppet great team you put together, just cursed by lack of a quality RB it seems.

God you know it's one sided when the opposition is posting videos praising your players and forgetting his opponent's name !!

Fixed it for you @P-Nut0712

 

[P-Nut]

yeah cheers @Skizzo. I thought rb would be simple when I first started drafting. It was only once I had a proper look at the available names I noticed I was screwed.

As an aside who would everyone consider Madrids greatest rb?

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

yeah cheers @Skizzo. I thought rb would be simple when I first started drafting. It was only once I had a proper look at the available names I noticed I was screwed.

As an aside who would everyone consider Madrids greatest rb?

Chendo?

Salgado?

 

[harms]

The relative weakness of Pnut's right side decided this for me. I've actually come around to the setup a bit, but not enough. Seedorf is a good fit for that uber-industrious gig of supporting Camacho defensively and providing width going forward, but he's still going to be stretched too far. Either he spends alot of the game out wide and the benefits of the compact diamond are greatly diluted, or else the team seriously lacks width going forward. A full-time role as an RM in a 4-4-1-1 would have been a more realistic assigment IMO:

Seedorf----Modric----Makelele----Gento
-----------------Di Stefano
-------------------Puskas

I could've imagined the set up with those players working well (relatively), but P-Nut himself restricted his players in the OP to play in a completely different game.