Owners
CEO (Arnold)
DoF (Murtough)
Manager (Rangnick ->..)
Players
It's not really that complicated. I assume a 'deputy DoF' would work under the DoF in terms of squad planning and such but would not be boss of the manager like the DoF is.
The ‘Deputy Football Director’ position | 31.05.2022 - Andy O’Boyle appointed
- Thread starter Chairman Steve
- Start date
CEO (Arnold)
DoF (Murtough)
Manager (Rangnick ->..)
Players
It's not really that complicated. I assume a 'deputy DoF' would work under the DoF in terms of squad planning and such but would not be boss of the manager like the DoF is.
Why would someone as headstrong, experienced and authoritative as Rangnick want work under Murtough, though; what's in it for him? I mean, any such move would probably be a net positive for United — but quite derisory from Rangnick's seasoned perspective, and akin to him working as Potter's assistant coach in a hypothetical situation where the latter is appointed as the next United manager. The deputy football director position is typically earmarked for someone who is already experienced with the culture/system of the club as an analyst or athletic director or scout or first-team developer or former player (and consequently has a sense of what needs be done), an enterprising up-and-comer who is willing to work hard under a figurehead and build a resumé (like a glorified intern at first), and sometimes a relatively unambitious old-timer who is enticed by the prospect of more money or the opportunity to work at a bigger institution — and Ralf (who thinks of himself as Der Boss) doesn't really fall into any of those categories. If we want to work around the Rangnick model for the foreseeable future, the position might be filled by a bloke from his one of his former clubs — like Leipzig, Hoffenheim, Schalke or Salzburg (along the lines of Sascha Lense, the new sports psychologist). If we want to support a new manager (let's say ten Hag), we might want to appoint a deputy who is in alignment with their principles and can act as a bridge between them and Murtough — like someone who worked under Overmars at Ajax, or perhaps an upstart from Barcelona or the Dutch national team. And of course, the club could be considering someone who is already working under Murtough at United in some other capacity — or maybe a talented fixer from within the Premier League or The Football Association (like Murtough himself when he was at Everton).
Yes, but who has responsibility for what?
This is where it is suspected different people/posts have different agendas/objectives, as in all organisation individual priorities can at times clash with overall priorities, so the range/scope of management needs to be defined. Those in a line-management set up have to be able to 'manage up' (as well as 'manage down') and to know when this can occur/is acceptable etc.
Such matters are probably understood within the club, (hopefully anyway) but for fans and others outside the club it becomes a matter of guesswork, which leads to all the speculation. That is why I said in my original post I would love to see a full management chart, e.g. with all formal and informal connections/reporting requirements made.
Who does Fletcher actually report to and on what level, he sits on the bench at pitch side, so is he part of the training regime and does he have authority over the new trainers??
Will the deputy DoF be a separate post with separate responsibilities, or will it just be 'cover' for the DoF or worse still a 'gofor' post.
Hopefully everybody on the inside do know what they are/should be about, what they should do and to whom they are responsible, but to fans and the outside world it doesn't quite look like that. Hence all the speculation and 'tale telling' that emerges and is lapped up by the media.
I’d like to think (optimistically and hopefully) that these football director positions that have been created in the last year are geared more towards getting Ten Hag over Poch.
Ajaxs structure has a lot of people involved. Meanwhile Poch seems to prefer being left to his own devices with little interference. I believe when he got promoted from head coach to manager at Spurs, he told Levy he’d work better without Paul Mitchell being too involved, who then left shortly after for the marginalisation of his role.
So unless Poch has changed his tune on this, these moves are more geared towards getting Ten Hag.
Ajaxs structure has a lot of people involved. Meanwhile Poch seems to prefer being left to his own devices with little interference. I believe when he got promoted from head coach to manager at Spurs, he told Levy he’d work better without Paul Mitchell being too involved, who then left shortly after for the marginalisation of his role.
So unless Poch has changed his tune on this, these moves are more geared towards getting Ten Hag.
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It wouldn't surprise me if they promoted Henny de Regt, who worked in various roles at Ajax for 18 years and has been credited with discovering Wesley Sneijder, Eriksen, Nigel de Jong, Van der Vaart, de Ligt etc. He also has experience of being a coach, analyst and a advisor to the Serbian NT. His appointment could also give us a strong indication on who the next coach is.
It does seem like the structure is being beefed up for someone who is accustomed and happy being a head coach.
It wouldn't surprise me if they promoted Henny de Regt, who worked in various roles at Ajax for 18 years and has been credited with discovering Wesley Sneijder, Eriksen, Nigel de Jong, Van der Vaart, de Ligt etc. He also has experience of being a coach, analyst and a advisor to the Serbian NT. His appointment could also give us a strong indication on who the next coach is.
How the feck do people know so much about random back room staff around Europe? 
Could still have been handcuffed as Ed was still running things during the window.
We will have to wait and see how things are going forward.
This seems to be a good step but, as said, wait and see.
No it’s naive to think the guy whose been at the club and was closely aligned to and promoted by Woodward has had no involvement behind the scenes. It’s also been reported he was introducing himself as DOF in 2018, also reported to be on the transfer committee in 2020 so I’d say it’s fairly obvious he’s been involved to some extent.
He also got this job when club thought they were doing great and were all heading in the right direction. I doubt he’d have got this job if he wasn’t part of this reboot and restructuring, this is probably his reward if anything, just like Ole getting his new contract.
The idea that Murtough has done nothing until now is extremely naive and makes no sense.
He's had no power at first team level regardless of him having someone's ear or not. Mourinho, Ole, LVG, Moyes, Judge and Woodward have all had more say than him and had far more authority. It's like blaming someone's assistant for their work.
I’ve never blamed him just pointed out that he is associated with the failure, that’s just the reality of the situation. The idea that this summer is first time he’ll be having any involvement at all is just very naive and makes absolutely no sense.
Who said he hasn't done anything behind the scenes? He was brought to the club by Moyes and Moyes is someone that is very good at understanding how a club should be run when it comes to scouting and applying data. And it was Moyes who brought him to the club for the purpose of him revamping and restructuring United's youth academy and scouting/data analytics departments. And he arrived at a time when according to reports we had one full-time scout (Jim Lawlor) and a almost non existent data analytics department. And Murtough has a history dating back almost 20 years, of him being the figurehead at various different clubs doing the work I've mentioned above. He doesn't take part in the recruitment but puts people in places who do identify transfer targets. And him being involved since 2020, doesn't mean he was setting the directive when it comes applying a football blueprint at first team level. That honour belonged to the first team manager and always has done at the club until Solskjaer was at the helm.
Now Murtough’s in a position where we can judge him at first team level. Before his DoF role, he was consigned mostly to the youth team and there's evidence for that from revamping and restructuring the youth/scouting/data departments to beating out many clubs for the likes of Hannibal, Kambwala etc and dealing with agents like Jorge Mendes. The final call on youth signings was made by Marcel Bout and the final call on signings made at first team level was done by the manager and there's reports backing that up.
He got this job because he's done a good job at revamping/restructuring the club at the youth/scouting and data analytics departments, when those departments were reported to have fallen years behind our rivals. He created the structures and mechanisms from almost scratch and put together a scouting network that was reviewed by a site online (TGG) who regularly have prominent scouts and heads of football from top clubs on their podcasts, who said that it was one of the most impressive lineups they'd reviewed.
He's a football man going back all the way to helping Wayne Rooney come through the ranks at Everton to modernising clubs when it comes to data analysis/scouting etc.
Having a DoF who has created the departments at any club is a advantage. Because like Dan Ashworth said on a podcast last year, 'it's about keeping the wheel moving and making sure the different departments are functioning to a optimal level'. That's basically the job of a DoF/Sporting Director, and being the architect of the processes and roles created is a big advantage. He's also assisted by top people who have vast experience working with him. People who he gave roles to, people like Henny de Regt and Marcel Bout etc who are heads of their respective departments and have vast experience of both working and understanding the game at the highest level.
I didn't say he hasn't done anything at the club but it would be naive to blame him for the failures at first team level of others, when there's plenty of evidence of him being involved on the youth development side as well as being the director at overseeing the revamp/restructuring at the club and also acting upon the scout recommendations by dealing with agents for the purpose of signing youth players like Hannibal, Kambwala, Amad etc.
Below is a 2020 article from TGG, who reported that Murtough was going to head the development of a data science department. This article just sheds some light on who Murtough is and what his back ground is when it comes to the football/data/scouting side.
https://trainingground.guru/articles/murtough-leading-development-of-man-utd-data-science-strategy
I’m not blaming him though am I, just pointing out he’s been part of failure which is just a fact. Recruitment is and has been poor, who takes the blame and how much is not known. Woodward bragged about all these new analytics meaning 804 right backs were whittled down to AWB for £50m so that doesn’t fill me with confidence.
He hasn't been part of the recruitment at first team level. The managers post Fergie have had the final say on the players signed at first team level and have even been allowed their own scouts. And Murtoughfrom the information in the public domain, has been involved at the youth level when it comes to signing players (Amad, Hannibal, Kambwala etc) and our signings at youth level have been good and we're doing well at youth level after falling behind under David Gill.
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He has been on the transfer committee so he has been part of it, for the money spent has the youth recruitment been good, have to wait and see.
Murtough has only been on the transfer committee since being appointed DoF. And according to The Athletic, his job was to act as the arbitrator in the event of a disagreement on transfer targets between Bout, Lawlor, Court v Solskjaer, Simon Wells, Phelan. Woodward was the arbitrator before that and it was well documented that Maguire was vetoed as a signing by the recruitment staff but a year later Solskjaer was allowed to sign him by the board.
We do have to wait and see how things turn out with the youth. But let's not ignore the youngsters who have been scouted and brought to the club for peanuts during Murtough's tenure, and are showing high potential for their respective age groups. I can list numerous players for you, if you want, but the point is that things are much improved after the state the academy was in during David Gill's tenure.
He’s been part of it longer than that and you’re finally admitting he’s been involved which is all I was saying in the first place.
Don’t need you to list anything we can all see who club has and hasn’t brought in and how much for. No one is ignoring other signings you just can’t list off very expensive ones as a positive when they’ve achieved nothing. Spending varying sums is what everyone is doing, just have to wait and see if we’re doing/have done it well.
Provide the evidence of the club's head of youth development being part of the recruitment at first team level, when it comes to identifying recruits and setting the directive going forward at first team level? It shouldn't be difficult for you to provide that evidence.
I'm not listing the expensive signings at youth level as positives, but rather i'm highlighting Murtough's involvement in engaging with agents like Jorge Mendes in completing deals at youth level.
Already done so, he’s on the transfer committee and has been for some time.
The reality is anyone involved with recruitment who has been with Utd for any length of time is associated with failure. There’s no spin that anyone can put on that, if we can’t recruit managers or players I see no reason to assume we recruit well elsewhere.
Also makes zero sense appoint someone from within the club who has had no involvement in something you think is going well. If the outcome of an extensive search is to appoint someone who has no influence or say and whose opinion doesn’t matter that also makes no sense.
The head of youth development wasn't on the transfer committee. The head of youth development promoted to a directors role at first team level was on the transfer committee as a arbitrator according to The Athletic. The directive was set by Solskjaer who had his own personal scout (Simon Wells) and Mike Phelan on the committee. It's not difficult to make a distinction on who was doing what here.
The actual reality is that if one can't make a distinction between the recruitment at first team level and the youth team, then it's easy to why one would be confused . You have to first try and understand what is the recruitment structure at the club and who are the key players within that structure and what are their roles. And then you also have to factor in the manager having control when it comes to setting the mid to long-term plan at first team level. Solskjaer several times said that he was in control of recruitment and was even allowed his own personal scout. Mourinho was also allowed independent scouts until 2018, according to the Telegraph. And I shared that link at the time.
It makes absolute sense to hire someone who is familiar with the multiple departments on the structural side of the club and to finally transition from the manager model to a DoF model.. And these are departments in their infancy compared to rival clubs like Liverpool, City etc. And the only thing I've consistently said is that our youth recruitment has been far better than our recruitment at first team level. And that's because the recruitment staff haven't been hampered at youth level by the first team manager. They can make decisions at youth level independently from the first team manager, hence someone like Murtough directing operations and appointing coaches (McKenna, Cochrane etc) and signing youth players, beefing up the data science etc with the aid of the recruitment staff like Bout, Court, de Regt, and Jim Lawlor, to help him make those decisions.
Which then creates the conditions for three things to occur, for any club to be successful when it comes to recruitment at any level. And IMO those three things are - Alignment, Stability, Continuity. And those three things can't occur if the first team manager isn't working with the club's recruitment departments. And is instead allowed his own scout or scouts in Mourinho's case. Michael Edwards at Liverpool had the same issues with Brendan Rodgers who was allowed to sign players on the judgement of his own recruitment staff. Klopp comes in and embraces Edwards and the recruitment departments and understands his role as the head coach and not the manager, and everything else is history.
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just a way to keep us all distracted. Nothing will change.
I'd probably steer clear of gambling if I was you.
Wow that got patronising quickly, even switched to a different pronoun to try and emphasise your superiority and intelligence. Nicely done.
Look you’ve read the Athletic and you believe it, good for you, it’s just one of various sources telling you all sorts of information (often conflicting). There’s a lot to be said for forming your own opinion and not just treating what you said as gospel.
When recruitment is going well everyone wants credit, when it’s not no one wants the blame. Everyone wants to associate it with individuals but someone like Steve Walsh is a great example of how that often isn’t true. The simple fact is Murtough is associated with failure, like many others at the club. You may not like it but that’s just how it works until you are part of success.
I've said what I've had to say and have backed up what I've said using media outlets like The Athletic and even Sporting Director's like Dan Ashworth and Stuart Webber who appear on podcasts from time.
You also use Steve Walsh as a poor example, when Steve Walsh was the head of recruitment at Leicester and was heavily involved in their recruitment department when it comes to identifying talent. Murtough was not involved in the recruitment department when it comes to identifying players pre being made DoF. Because his role at the club was of someone who created structures and mechanisms for people like Steve Walsh to do their job. Murtough did the same at Everton to modernise their club and was also hired to modernise Fulham and Coventry, almost 20 years ago. And he oversaw those jobs whilst also working with the youth departments.
What i'm saying can easily be verified by a simple online search.
This looks from the outside that United are finally trying to join he 21st century in regards to running a football club
I am as sceptical as anyone that this is another PR spin, whatever you think of Murtough he has improved the academy
He has 12 months in my opinion to prove he has a clue what he is doing, working with the new manager & picking at Rangnicks knowledge
Michael Edwards was a Fraud before Klopp
Right manager & actual control who knows Murtough might actually be good at his role
I am as sceptical as anyone that this is another PR spin, whatever you think of Murtough he has improved the academy
He has 12 months in my opinion to prove he has a clue what he is doing, working with the new manager & picking at Rangnicks knowledge
Michael Edwards was a Fraud before Klopp
Right manager & actual control who knows Murtough might actually be good at his role
No it’s not a poor example in relation to the point it was relevant to about how credit/blame is attributed to individuals. One should be able to figure it out.
You don’t know anything about the inner workings of the club only what you’ve read on the Athletic, I don’t know why you are so impressed by that, is it because you need a subscription and you feel it’s exclusive or superior in some way, who knows.
It's a poor example in relationship to John Murtough's role in football. Steve Walsh was the head of recruitment at the clubs he worked at and would be held accountable for recruitment decisions. Steve Walsh's title as the head of recruitment is pretty self explanatory. If you want to compare roles to the one Murtough had at United, then look up John McDermott who was at Tottenham for 10 years and oversaw the development of their academy, and has recently been appointed as the technical director at the FA.No it’s not a poor example in relation to the point it was relevant to about how credit/blame is attributed to individuals. One should be able to figure it out.
You don’t know anything about the inner workings of the club only what you’ve read on the Athletic, I don’t know why you are so impressed by that, is it because you need a subscription and you feel it’s exclusive or superior in some way, who knows.
Where did I say I was impressed? I'm telling you that Murtough was not involved with the decision making process at first team level as far as recruitment is concerned. And I don't need to be working within the confines of the club to know that this is true. Mark Anderson ex United scout has appeared on the TGG podcast to explain the role of Murtough at United. And Mark Anderson at the time clearly mentioned Murtough's role being of someone who was working on the development of the structural and youth side of the club similar to John McDermott at Spurs. So it's not just The Athletic but people working within the industry who say the same thing. And Murtough's title as the head of first team development pre being made DoF is self explanatory.
And if you can name one person who held the title 'head of first team development' at any other club and was also involved in recruitment at first team level, then I'll be impressed. But i'm not gonna hold my breath because it seems like backing up your claims isn't a strong point of yours.
It's fine to be critical of the club because numerous mistakes have occurred over the years. But to make stuff up about people who were working at the club outside of the first team fold is pretty silly.
Sometimes just new to stop trying to demonstrate how clever you are and read what I posted. You’ve totally missed the point and made stuff up which I believe you describe as silly.
My point was about the obsession with assigning blame or credit to an individual. No need to list job descriptions and jump back on your high horse as I made no comparison to anyone, just mentioned Steve Walsh.
He got the credit at Leicester, the blame at Everton and he’s gone from being highly sought after in the Premier League to working on the MLS. Leicester still recruit well, Everton still don’t, it’s a lot more than one individual and covers all sorts of d different roles, processes etc etc.Just to confirm I’m not making any comparison to anyone else and do not need a list of job titles or descriptions explaining why I’m wrong to make a comparison.
If I wanted to talk about blame being assigned in relation to Murtaugh I’d talk about Haaland and Bellingham. Your pals at the Athletic have claimed he botched Bellingham and widely reported by others he botched the Haaland as well. Now that to me is just trying to assign blame to an individual when in reality both probably just preferred Dortmund for their own reasons.
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Jobs for the boys, even Rangnick doesn’t know what he does apparently
Why should the interim know the specifics of Fletcher's role at the club?
It's also been said what his role at the club is. I'm just amazed that it's even a talking point.
Yeah, why would a direct colleague who is supposed to be staying on for another 2 years know what Fletcher does.
Perfect logic, here's one Glazer cookie.
He's gonna be in a advisory role and likely won't be staying. I've never heard or seen a consultant move upstairs.
Looks like this could be Mitchell?
What I thought too, would give us a good chance to sign Tchouameni too.
All of this hard work of bringing the right professionals into the club isn't worth it if we'll keep paying stupid wages to clubs and players whether if this new players or contract renewals.
The added value of people like Ralf and Paul is that they will need to find the talents in cheap in order to make them the Finished product in our club or bring on academy players and give them a chance just like Ralf did with Anthony.
The added value of people like Ralf and Paul is that they will need to find the talents in cheap in order to make them the Finished product in our club or bring on academy players and give them a chance just like Ralf did with Anthony.
Mitchell is at Monaco and has the top job there. Cannot see any way that United could employ Rangnick AND Mitchell with Murtough there, too (as well as Fletcher). I can’t even see how Ralf can get a meaningful job with his “consultancy”. Wonder if Mitchell wants him coaching Monaco from next season…
You seem to becoming to my same conclusions
Mitchell also worked closely with Pochettino at Southampton and Spurs.
Maybe murtough is on the way out? His protector is gone
Mitchell also worked closely with Pochettino at Southampton and Spurs.
Managers play a minor role these days. Most of the work is done behind the scenes (Ceo, Sporting director,Dof etc). If we end up with Rangnick as Sporting director and Mitchell as DOF then we will improve our situation significantly irrespective of the manager. Also pocus is not an Ole either