The «best in class»-club

andersj

Nick Powell Expert
Joined
Aug 7, 2004
Messages
4,635
Location
Copenhagen
Relucant to contribute with another negative post today. I really dont care that much anymore about the results this season.

What I really worry about is what we will do next. When we eventually have managed to get rid of Antony, Casemiro, Rashford, Luke Shaw etc. Will we be able to replace them with good players?

That’s where my concern lies. Is the current sporting leadership—Berrada, Wilcox, Vivell—actually capable of overseeing a rebuild? Losing Dan Ashworth, probably (?) the most qualified of the group, only adds to the doubts. Do these guys have the vision and expertise to identify and secure the right players, or are we doomed to repeat the same mistakes?

It’s not just about spending money; it’s about spending it wisely. And right now, I’m not convinced we have the people in place to do that.
 
Relucant to contribute with another negative post today. I really dont care that much anymore about the results this season.

What I really worry about is what we will do next. When we eventually have managed to get rid of Antony, Casemiro, Rashford, Luke Shaw etc. Will we be able to replace them with good players?

That’s where my concern lies. Is the current sporting leadership—Berrada, Wilcox, Vivell—actually capable of overseeing a rebuild? Losing Dan Ashworth, probably (?) the most qualified of the group, only adds to the doubts. Do these guys have the vision and expertise to identify and secure the right players, or are we doomed to repeat the same mistakes?

It’s not just about spending money; it’s about spending it wisely. And right now, I’m not convinced we have the people in place to do that.
Even if they could source the quality needed, I don't think we have the financial clout to get it.
 
Best in class at bullshit, Ratcliffe is a BS merchant and will be fully exposed in due course.
 
It shouldn't be hard to spend our money wisely (Although our record suggests otherwise).

We're currently 13th. How hard should it be for a club with our resources and pull to improve the team? Shouldn't be too difficult.

I expect we'll start seeing improvement from next season onwards, and while the club grows and transforms, so will the back room team.

This whole idea of a best in class team that was going to instantly crack the code, and make us a top 3 team again was absurd. This isn't an overnight job.

We don't need best in class, we just need competence.
 
Everyone we appoint is "best in class" until they're sacked, at which point they end up perceived as clowns (see the reactions to Ashworth joining and later leaving as an example).

The reality is none of us know how good or bad Berrada, Wilcox, and Vivell are at their jobs. I'm fairly sure none of them have ever held a position equivalent to their current roles.
 
Even if they could source the quality needed, I don't think we have the financial clout to get it.
Thankfully the bar is so low at the moment that I don't think this'll be an issue. We want ambitious, talented players with good physicality and who fit Amorims system.

We don't need to be signing the best of the best here, just sensible signings that any number of informed professionals could identify. Besides, for me last summers transfers were largely good, certainly a step in the right direction.

Once some big earners are moved on we'll have plenty of budget to work with and still a little bit of fecking gravitas about us. If this lot aren't able to improve us steadily then they're clueless.
 
The truth is we're not qualified to judge whether the likes of Wilcox & Berrada or indeed INEOS are up to the job, even less so than we are with managers or players.

Only time will tell. And by "time", I mean years. After all, Fenway bought Liverpool in 2010 and it was a decade later before they actually won major trophies. I wonder at what point in that decade Liverpool fans actually knew their hierarchy was up to the job? My guess is quite close to the trophies actually landing.

Certainly fecking hope they know what they're doing.
 
Thankfully the bar is so low at the moment that I don't think this'll be an issue. We want ambitious, talented players with good physicality and who fit Amorims system.

We don't need to be signing the best of the best here, just sensible signings that any number of informed professionals could identify. Besides, for me last summers transfers were largely good, certainly a step in the right direction.

Once some big earners are moved on we'll have plenty of budget to work with and still a little bit of fecking gravitas about us. If this lot aren't able to improve us steadily then they're clueless.
Well I hope you're right mate
 
It’s about 9 months in for Wilcox and just over 6 months in for Berrada. They inherited a fecking mess left by Woodward, Arnold and Murtough, where very average players are commanding salaries worthy of world class players and paying world class transfer fees for very average players.

Time will tell and it’s way too early to pass judgement. I do think Berrada and Wilcox will be better just on the virtue they’re not accountants from a corporate background and sport scientists punching well above their weight, and actually come from footballing backgrounds where they have been successful.
 
My biggest gripe with the Glazers was the amount of senior leadership that were all "learning on the job", recently promoted from another role, the blind leading the proverbial blind.

It's really difficult to know that you're making a mistake in a new job if the people overseeing your work also don't know what they're doing yet. And at the very top we have a family who have zero interest in soccerball and some guy who likes bicycles.

I guess the first red flag should have been when the Glazers appointed "Ineos" as the club's footballing leadership, since every appointment the Glazers have ever made has been utter shite. I was too giddy at the thought of us trying something different, but it looks like not much has changed other than everyone at the club walking on eggshells waiting for the chop from the guys who thought it was smart to chase someone all summer, pay out their contract for a fee in the millions, and then quickly sack him as well.
 
Last edited:
How hard should it be for a club with our resources and pull to improve the team? Shouldn't be too difficult.
I think you underestimate the issue. The club burned through it's money with terrible squad building in recent years, the glory days are so far in the past that they aren't relevant to youbg players today and United doesn't even qualify for Europe anymore as it looks right now.

United still is huge but it's pull on players surely is deteriorating.
 
I think you underestimate the issue. The club burned through it's money with terrible squad building in recent years, the glory days are so far in the past that they aren't relevant to youbg players today and United doesn't even qualify for Europe anymore as it looks right now.

United still is huge but it's pull on players surely is deteriorating.
I can't argue with that. But the point I was making is that from our current position, it's pretty much inevitable that we improve. 'Best in class' or no.

Our pull isn't what it once was, but look at the teams above us. We have a huge advantage in recruitment over the likes of Fulham, Palace, Villa, Brighton, Forest, and Newcastle.

We just need to be realistic about our goals. Baby steps...
 
The silver lining, for me, is that, in my opinion, the summer window indicated that we should see an upturn in the quality of signings the club makes.

De Light and Mazraoui look short of "world class" but they're objectively "good" players who improve the XI and hardly cost us anything really (especially in PSR terms).

I like Ugarte. Again, I think he definitely improves us.

Zirkzee is the one the jury is out on, but at the price we paid, perfectly happy to be patient and see how it develops. He has plenty of qualities.

What we need, is for INEOS to now focus on the attack. I don't mean to attack Amad, but if he's our best forward, the shining light, we're in serious trouble. He's a "good" player, who works hard...but he's not good enough to carry our attack on his own. One or two world class players in attack could make a huge different to this team. It would force teams to worry more about "overcovering" and not committing so many numbers forward, which creates a nice positive feedback loop across the entire team.

Right now, Hojlund, Garnacho, Amad, Zirkzee, Bruno, Mount and Anthony, as an attacking unit, is arguably behind (or equivalent to) Bournemouth, Brighton and Palace's attacks. That's not a great look at all for a supposedly elite club.
 
They took a massive gamle to make this kind of switch mid season with almost no preparation. Almost a total mismatch between the biggest talents in the team and the incoming managers principles and tactics while overseeing complete upheaval in every part of the club. It doesn't exactly make me hopeful that we have the right executive team in place.

No doubt Ashworth lost his job for cautioning against the risks inherent in this kind of sudden pivot with all the changes happening in and around the club, but I think INEOS wanted swift and decisive moves to generate positive headlines in the short term. I also think the rest of the management team knew the risks too, but they could see the writing on the wall and chose to act in order to appease Ratcliffe. We will go nowhere as long as the people who actually understand the game and how to chart a realistic development path aren't given the time and ressources to do so without interference.

Every successful club in the league has the same core characteristics in terms of decision making regardless of their ressource levels. Vision, competence, temperance and the ability to consistently follow the principles that flow from it on a day-to-day basis in order to create alignment and a resilient culture over time. Will INEOS allow something like this to take shape?

That will be critital in terms of attracting top talent in the future as well. We will get the same mercenaries, troubled talents and over the hill veterans knocking on the door until we can credible sell a vision of what being a part of United is about in the coming years while refusing to compromise on it no matter the short term pressures. We dont have the kind of money on offer that we used to and our brand is in tatters. What everyone knows for sure is that we have absolutely excelled in derailing careers of both players and managers for years now.

They will need to turn that perception around completely and it's going to take time. They bet the house on Amorim, and now have a couple of weeks left to help him survive the season. It's a stern test of their qualities for sure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Invictus
What is baffling to me and not a good sign is that Ashworth was fired without any replacement in mind. Even if it was a heat of the moment decision by Ratcliff there should have been enough time to get in someone new before we headed into the January transfer window but it seems we are not even looking at the minute. Which to me suggests the people currently running the club can do the job themselves. Given how this transfer window is going they seem to be mistaken.
 
I view it as - ashworth was by far the most qualified person at the club to lead. Someone, or a group of people, just realised they didn't like his direction, and cut the cord quickly.

The danger now is that we don't replace him, and let berrada, Wilcox or god forbid ratcliffe or his people make decisions. They don't have the track record of someone like ashworth in that top job.

My main worry is that berrada thinks he is the top man, and while he was obviously an important part of city, my estimate is he was the fourth most important person after soriano, txiki and pep, so the third most important administrator. If berrada think he can pick managers, styles, or even have a hand in transfers we are in real trouble, as there is no way to claim he is best in class as a director of football.

Ideal scenario we replace ashworth with someone berrada is more comfortable with, who has done it, who isn't a yes man for berrada, and they do what soriano and txiki did with city.

Maybe they want Wilcox to be this person - we just shouldn't pretend he has ever done this job before.
 
There's no point talking about best in class ever again. That dream died when Ratcliffe made the offer to allow the Glazers to cling on to the club.

Glazers are worst in class owners. Ineos Sport are failures everywhere they go, also worst in class owners. Brailsford is an even bigger bullshit merchant than Murtough.

The highest level of decision makers at the club now, the football committee, is Joel Glazer, Ratcliffe and Brailsford. None of whom know anything about football.
 
What is baffling to me and not a good sign is that Ashworth was fired without any replacement in mind. Even if it was a heat of the moment decision by Ratcliff there should have been enough time to get in someone new before we headed into the January transfer window but it seems we are not even looking at the minute. Which to me suggests the people currently running the club can do the job themselves. Given how this transfer window is going they seem to be mistaken.
I don't think there was ever going to be much happening this window. Better that they slow down and get it right. We are probably into the realm of more payoffs for a new director of football
 
I dunno, because the problem we have is our owners are all useless cnuts. The Glazers have proven it beyond all reasonable doubt 10 times over, and Sir Jim only seems to care about cutting costs

It's fecked

I'm not seeing a ray of light until we get rid of them, to be honest, which is a obviously a grim thought

it's honestly got to the stage of when we actually get someone really talented in the club, like Amad or Amorim, I eventually just feel sorry for them
 
What is baffling to me and not a good sign is that Ashworth was fired without any replacement in mind.
That's simply not true, effectively he was replaced by Vivell, who originally had only a short term contract.

Which means that the tasks are now distributed in another way as originally planned, but in terms of numbers the management has the intented size.
I view it as - ashworth was by far the most qualified person at the club to lead.
Was he? I'm not arguing against his achievements, but I think his experience never was a great fit to United's needs.
 
The reality is none of us know how good or bad Berrada, Wilcox, and Vivell are at their jobs. I'm fairly sure none of them have ever held a position equivalent to their current roles.

I thought only Berrada has never been a CEO before. I am quite sure Wilcox and Vivell have prior experience
 
The best in class term is nonsense, we’ve got a proper structure now and employed people qualified to do their jobs. It’s a huge contrast to likes of Arnold, Murtough and Woodward.

Unlike the lose three of Berrada, Wilcox and Vivell come up short they’ll get the sack and someone else will get a chance.

Who knows how they will get on but it would be the same whoever is in those roles. It’s a very difficult job but they need to get more right than we have done previously. I do think we will see a reduction in the fees/wages paid which will make it easier to move on from those that don’t work out but they do need to unearth some really good players for decent fees from somewhere.
 
That's simply not true, effectively he was replaced by Vivell, who originally had only a short term contract.

Which means that the tasks are now distributed in another way as originally planned, but in terms of numbers the management has the intented size.

Was he? I'm not arguing against his achievements, but I think his experience never was a great fit to United's needs.
He was successful putting together processes behind football success. Our processes have been failing for many years and are still failing us
 
They took a massive gamle to make this kind of switch mid season with almost no preparation. Almost a total mismatch between the biggest talents in the team and the incoming managers principles and tactics while overseeing complete upheaval in every part of the club. It doesn't exactly make me hopeful that we have the right executive team in place.

No doubt Ashworth lost his job for cautioning against the risks inherent in this kind of sudden pivot with all the changes happening in and around the club, but I think INEOS wanted swift and decisive moves to generate positive headlines in the short term. I also think the rest of the management team knew the risks too, but they could see the writing on the wall and chose to act in order to appease Ratcliffe. We will go nowhere as long as the people who actually understand the game and how to chart a realistic development path aren't given the time and ressources to do so without interference.

Every successful club in the league has the same core characteristics in terms of decision making regardless of their ressource levels. Vision, competence, temperance and the ability to consistently follow the principles that flow from it on a day-to-day basis in order to create alignment and a resilient culture over time. Will INEOS allow something like this to take shape?

That will be critital in terms of attracting top talent in the future as well. We will get the same mercenaries, troubled talents and over the hill veterans knocking on the door until we can credible sell a vision of what being a part of United is about in the coming years while refusing to compromise on it no matter the short term pressures. We dont have the kind of money on offer that we used to and our brand is in tatters. What everyone knows for sure is that we have absolutely excelled in derailing careers of both players and managers for years now.

They will need to turn that perception around completely and it's going to take time. They bet the house on Amorim, and now have a couple of weeks left to help him survive the season. It's a stern test of their qualities for sure.
Good post

We’re the WH Smith of football
 
He was successful putting together processes behind football success. Our processes have been failing for many years and are still failing us
But he somewhat did that on a green field as far as I know. He doesn't have experience in dismantling a disaster of a squad for example, and if I'm not mistaken he never fired a manager before. Which is something that obviously had to happen at United.

In a way I think he joined the club too early. He could probably have done a good job at building and improving structures throughout the club, but he wasn't the right one for the high pressure "open heart surgery" the first team and staff needed (and still need).
 
But he somewhat did that on a green field as far as I know. He doesn't have experience in dismantling a disaster of a squad for example, and if I'm not mistaken he never fired a manager before. Which is something that obviously had to happen at United.

In a way I think he joined the club too early. He could probably have done a good job at building and improving structures throughout the club, but he wasn't the right one for the high pressure "open heart surgery" the first team and staff needed (and still need).
I get the horses for course line of your argument here, and Ashworth was definitely the wrong hire for the club. All the information you need to make that conclusion is the fact that we fought a war with Newcastle to get him and let him go after less than half a season. But the reason he was the wrong hire, in my opinion of course, was not because of his profile or experience as a professional and the job required at United, but rather because Ratcliffes timelines for developing United and his management style was not suited for someone of Ashworths temperament. And others probably pounced on this clash between him and Ratcliffe to sideline and eventually get him sacked.

However, I don't think you need to have experience firing a manager in order to be able to do so at this level. By that logic we should have hired a sporting director who has fired lots of managers - but that obviously doesn't sound right as a job qualification either. I also question the line of thinking that we the only way forward is open heart surgery in this immediate, combustive fashion that INEOS has mandated at the club. In my opinion, that takes a management choice and elevates it to a necessity that guides any further discussion.

There is no doubt that we are in financial deep waters because of past mismanagement, and the collective talent level in our squad currently doesn't make the cut for top five in the league and more importantly has been assembled with no coherent plan. But was the bloat, slack, whatever in the club really at a level where we needed to cull 25 percent of the staff here and now? Was it necessary to cancel the Christmas party and take away minor staff bonuses? Could we have spent less in the summer and accepted a longer time horizon on refreshing the squad and rebuilding the organization, culture and so on? Can a club like United choose to remove the veneer of ultimate ambition in the short term in favor of accepting a longer development period and communicating accordingly? Sure, there will be risk. Sponsors might get cold feet, it could be more challenging to recruit certain player profiles and so on, but it might also create stability and perhaps reduce the external expectations somewhat if you choose another narrative.

I don't disagree that the club needed and still needs open heart surgery. But even that can be done in more ways than one.

You can carefully put together a team of top surgeons, allow them time to discuss the best way forward in order to safeguard the patients health in both the immediate post-operation period as well as their longer term rehabilitation. And then let said experts perform the actual surgery according to their assessment of the required time for the procedure, while respecting their need for a calm working environment and sufficient levels of nursing staff that allows them to focus their minds on the very specialized task at hand.

You can also lock a bunch of people with a broad range of medical experience in a room, tell them they have an hour to figure out how to perform the operation in a way that will allow the patient to be running a marathon six months after being out of surgery, all the while different people are walking in and out of the room playing bagpipes and banging steel drums as hard as humanly possible. And when it's time to actually perform the surgery you could choose to be looking over their shoulder the whole time, questioning every incision and tapping your watch, while dismissing a new member of the nursing team every 15 mins.
 
But the reason he was the wrong hire, in my opinion of course, was not because of his profile or experience as a professional and the job required at United, but rather because Ratcliffes timelines for developing United and his management style was not suited for someone of Ashworths temperament.
I feel like that's mostly just a different wording for the same point? So I agree here.
By that logic we should have hired a sporting director who has fired lots of managers - but that obviously doesn't sound right as a job qualification either
True, and also that's not what I meant. I just would have liked someone who has cleaned up a mess of a club before, which necessarily includes making hard decisions like that.
I don't disagree that the club needed and still needs open heart surgery. But even that can be done in more ways than one.
You created a brilliant picture in you post. I just quoted this because this is the key question here:

Does United have some kind of chronical illness that affects it fitness and can be fixed in a calm and measured way? Or did it just take a bullet and needs a combat surgeon who fixes it right on the battlefield? Or something in between?

I tend to think of United as needing combat surgery now, I don't see that being calm and slow is a good choice. Which means, I don't see Ashworth as a good choice. But I acknowledge that this rating heavily depends on how dire the situation really is.
 
True, and also that's not what I meant. I just would have liked someone who has cleaned up a mess of a club before, which necessarily includes making hard decisions like that.
Maybe thats an advantage he didn't have, I don't know. To my mind, even if your previous experience is mostly one of having the mandate and ressources to build something up from the ground or evolve it to a higher order, it doesn't mean that you can't make hard decisions about what or who to let go in order to achieve that. I still suspect that the problem with Ashworth was less his ability to manage the task at hand and more a question of his answers not being to Ratcliffes personal liking.

Which is the main problem for me here really. By all reputable accounts, Ratcliffe is very involved in decision making and strategy at United. I don't think he should be at all honestly. If his personal assessments and opinions are constantly in play, we're in real trouble here. He obviously built a company and made a lot of money, but that doesn't necessarily translate to revitalizing a football club and community institution, particularly one that is struggling like this and gets the level of scrutiny United does. It's typical of people who think too highly of themselves and their own abilities. They create a difficult environment for discussion, since you can't be straight with them at all. Again, the journalists worth listening to say that only Brailsford can actually talk to Ratcliffe with any level of honesty and even he probably needs to tread carefully not to upset his ego. Plus he comes across like a buffoon, so there is that.

Also, this whole thing of attending games, holding his head in his hands when things aren't going well, talking to the manager right after the game and so on. What a terrible way to use your presence as an owner. Pile more pressure on the people involved why don't you, and feed the media hysteria and negativity while you're at it.

You created a brilliant picture in you post. I just quoted this because this is the key question here:

Does United have some kind of chronical illness that affects it fitness and can be fixed in a calm and measured way? Or did it just take a bullet and needs a combat surgeon who fixes it right on the battlefield? Or something in between?

I tend to think of United as needing combat surgery now, I don't see that being calm and slow is a good choice. Which means, I don't see Ashworth as a good choice. But I acknowledge that this rating heavily depends on how dire the situation really is.
Very true, it's an important part of analyzing the problem. I do think it's really quite bad financially, and I'm not saying that they're making all these cuts for the fun of it. We probably are in critical condition. I see a lot of people online suggesting Ratcliffe and INEOS almost do it for their own enjoyment or something, which is really unlikely in my opinion.

But I think they're too much in a hurry, and again, I do think Ratcliffe and his people being overly involved in assessing the timelines and putting in the milestones is really putting the patient at risk so to speak. Would we have hired Amorim mid season like this if the experts had their hands free? Would Berrada have insisted like that against Amorims own judgement of how to proceed? I personally doubt it.

If they feck this up and we lose a promising manager like Amorim because people at the top fail at basic listening, then I suspect we better get used to the wilderness. We could be here a while yet.
 
You'd think, after all these years, he'd have learned something about the game.
Not really. I don't think he ever watches football. Some owners are like that, they don't even know about the products that their company makes, they just look at the numbers and ask the people working for them to make these numbers go up, usually by an amount they make up out of thin air regardless of if this is realistic or not.
 
If they feck this up and we lose a promising manager like Amorim because people at the top fail at basic listening, then I suspect we better get used to the wilderness. We could be here a while yet.
I completely agree on this.
 
I thought SJR would have quickly learned from his other two football clubs that they don't have the first clue what they are at. He would just leave the running of the club to the football guys and sign the cheques and reshape the financials and redevelop the stadium and make a huge profit. He seems to be meddling in every little facet of the club.
 
But he somewhat did that on a green field as far as I know. He doesn't have experience in dismantling a disaster of a squad for example, and if I'm not mistaken he never fired a manager before. Which is something that obviously had to happen at United.

In a way I think he joined the club too early. He could probably have done a good job at building and improving structures throughout the club, but he wasn't the right one for the high pressure "open heart surgery" the first team and staff needed (and still need).
I totally disagree. I think we need to put structures in place to make good decisions over five to ten years and let that compound. If we try a quick fix we will fail spectacularly. I'd bet my life savings on it. Now we have several people that have never done the director of football all job before bar Wilcox for a few months at Southampton.