That Soccernet Veron Article

zippy

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After reading it i find that its getting harder and harder to stick up for seba - just couldnt argue with what was said.

What an awkward position both fergie and veron are in; veron wishes he was a lazio player and fergie wishes he had never spent 28mil on him in the fist place.

Its looking more and more like we will end up selling him for a loss of around 10mil.

The english game is played at such a pace that you have little time to think about where a pass will go - unless you have the skill to make time for yourself like Cantona used to do. In England the best teams play the easy ball quickly, once you've knocked it around a few times at pace things start to open up a bit and then you can play the killer ball. Veron is looking to play the killer ball every time he gets it, which you obviously just dont have time for in England, thus his passes will go astray or he gets tackled.

The question is; does anyone still believe in him? does he even believe in himself anymore?
 
I think nearly all of the things in that articles have also been mentioned and discussed in this forum before. This article just summed up all the points we have made so far. For your question, I believe deep in our hearts most of us already didn't believe on him anymore. But the dilenma is that we can't ship him out (at least for this moment), therefore as fans most of us only continue to support him and hope (rather than believe) he can somehow become good.
 
Me too.

I refuse to make him a scapegoat for the whole team when we get a poor result.

Sometimes Eric would be anonymous for almost an entire game, then would set-up or score a goal and end up as man of the match.

I'm not suggesting Veron is the same as Eric, just that he is capable of doing perhaps one piece of creative play which can change a match. ie first goal on Tuesday and Ruuds goal against Haifa.

As for his defensive play, he is working hard yet not making tackles. I can see a VERY basic error that he makes. He tends to sell himself very early and make it easy for players to take the ball past him. He needs to jockey people more to hold them up and allow his team mates time to get back into defensive positions.
 
Originally posted by GaryLifo:
<strong>Me too.

I refuse to make him a scapegoat for the whole team when we get a poor result.

Sometimes Eric would be anonymous for almost an entire game, then would set-up or score a goal and end up as man of the match.

I'm not suggesting Veron is the same as Eric, just that he is capable of doing perhaps one piece of creative play which can change a match. ie first goal on Tuesday and Ruuds goal against Haifa.

As for his defensive play, he is working hard yet not making tackles. I can see a VERY basic error that he makes. He tends to sell himself very early and make it easy for players to take the ball past him. He needs to jockey people more to hold them up and allow his team mates time to get back into defensive positions.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Spot on. Its not up to us to say when and if he should be sold, its up to Ferguson. We can criticise and comment, but ultimately its up to Seba and Fergie to sort things out or put an end to it.
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Originally posted by spinoza:
<strong>

Spot on. Its not up to us to say when and if he should be sold, its up to Ferguson. We can criticise and comment, but ultimately its up to Seba and Fergie to sort things out or put an end to it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Crikey mate, with insight like that I'm not surprised you've called yourself Spinoza.
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I watch the body language. In Seba I've been seeing an unhappy bloke, saying "shit". I see in Diego's body language "Ok. Tomorrow !". I think he'll make it (maybe as a winger).
I used to see in Maradona's body language "Defeat is impossible. We will f'in WIN". I saw something similar with Becks at the World Cup, a gesture to Danny Mills which said "keep going son". I saw it with Ardiles when he wouldn't play in England while the Falklands war was on - pride and agression.
How do we get Seba fired up, angry, playing as if his manhood has been questioned (but without being sent off like Keano ?!).
 
I certainly still have faith in him, as a wise man once said you dont become a bad player overnight, Veron has been absolutely outstanding for Argentina and Lazio in the past and i doubt he has just become crap since he came to OT.
 
if you still believe that verons heart is still with lazio, all you had to do was look at his reaction to his goal againt maccabi haifa. his reaction was not of a man who doesnt like it with us. he clearly is trying to make amends...
 
Originally posted by zippy:
<strong>After reading it i find that its getting harder and harder to stick up for seba - just couldnt argue with what was said.

What an awkward position both fergie and veron are in; veron wishes he was a lazio player and fergie wishes he had never spent 28mil on him in the fist place.

Its looking more and more like we will end up selling him for a loss of around 10mil.

The english game is played at such a pace that you have little time to think about where a pass will go - unless you have the skill to make time for yourself like Cantona used to do. In England the best teams play the easy ball quickly, once you've knocked it around a few times at pace things start to open up a bit and then you can play the killer ball. Veron is looking to play the killer ball every time he gets it, which you obviously just dont have time for in England, thus his passes will go astray or he gets tackled.

The question is; does anyone still believe in him? does he even believe in himself anymore?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm relatively happy with Veron. Don't get all this sell Seba stuff.
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He needs time to settle in the team... he's a good player.
 
Originally posted by zippy:
<strong>What an awkward position both fergie and veron are in; veron wishes he was a lazio player and fergie wishes he had never spent 28mil on him in the fist place. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh just let this freaking thing go! People keep saying Veron wants to be in Italy, he wants to play for Lazio, bla, bla, bla. Enough! Even Veron hasn't opened his mouth about Italy for months now.
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feck all the moaners who are blaming Veron. they should go and support another team cos we dont need them.

he made both goals against leverkusen .. yet some pf you twats still blame him..
for feckssake.. why dont u just shut the feck up.
 
Originally posted by Silvio:
<strong>feck all the moaners who are blaming Veron. they should go and support another team cos we dont need them.

he made both goals against leverkusen .. yet some pf you twats still blame him..
for feckssake.. why dont u just shut the feck up.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Couldn't agree more. Getting on the lads back and having a pop at him isn't going to do him or the team any good.
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On the other side of midfield David Beckham too was struggling for touch. But, as ever, the acting skipper got stuck in, knew when to 'get rid' and helped out comrade Gary Neville manfully in defence. While Nicky Butt was his usual self and Phil Neville impressed as a repurposed full-back in the engine-room, Veron made his now customary half-attempts at tackles and, when given the ball by a team-mate, usually gave it away after some over-elaboration.
<hr></blockquote>

So everyone did brilliant bar Veron (who incidently set up 2 goals). :rolleyes:
If you want to write an article about a player playing useless badly enough you can do it to any performance. Someone else could look at the same game, slam Bex for playing shite and put Veron down as our inspiration.
I hate crappy journalism like that when the writer has his mind made up beforehand how its going to be.
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Seba has become an easy target.
He a massive name in world football, he arrived for a British Record Fee and didn't make the big impact that was expected.
Unless he takes on all 10 opposition players then lobs the keeper from 30 yards the media will accuse him of being a flop.
Sensationalism Journalism. It really pisses me off because being a sports journalist is a very difficult thing to get into and these guys make a complete feck up of it.
 
Originally posted by Silvio:
<strong>feck all the moaners who are blaming Veron. they should go and support another team cos we dont need them.

he made both goals against leverkusen .. yet some pf you twats still blame him..
for feckssake.. why dont u just shut the feck up.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Just because he set up the two goals, it doesn't mean he can shut down for the rest of the match. You have to be prepared to go for 90+ minutes.
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Originally posted by Silvio:
<strong>feck all the moaners who are blaming Veron. they should go and support another team cos we dont need them.

he made both goals against leverkusen .. yet some pf you twats still blame him..
for feckssake.. why dont u just shut the feck up.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Why don't you just let your feelings be known.

:D :D :D
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Originally posted by darko:
<strong>

Just because he set up the two goals, it doesn't mean he can shut down for the rest of the match. You have to be prepared to go for 90+ minutes.</strong><hr></blockquote>

totally true, still outrageous for a reporter to slam Veron and praise literally every other player after Wednesdays performance.
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I think we need to keep in mind that from day one Veron`s signing for Manchester United was accompanied by unrealistically sky high expectations.

The one that springs to mind is Paul Scholes` (very) unwise and premature claim that Seba was going to be better than Eric Cantona. Yes, I know footballers are not renowned for their intelligence but Scholesy is a man who steers clear of exaggerations when discussing football.

Even if Seba had the reputation of being a world class player (which he had when he signed for us), to make such a comparison with Eric straight away when it surely must be clear that Eric and his influence were unique, shows the ridiculous pressures Seba had to contend with from the start.

Eric asid, one man does not a football team make (although Keano comes close at times!). Veron was lauded prematurely and ridiculously and when he had a mediocre first season here was then insulted rather than genuinely assessed for his somewhat lacklustre performances.

Yet already the man has shown what he is capable of - being a valuable and skilled playmaker. While I have my doubts whether Seba can really show his class in England, given the nature of the game in England, I do not have any doubt that he will show more of his real game this season and adapt much better to the English game. Whether it will be enough for the Manchester United team,manager and fans is yet to be seen.

But let`s support our own. There is a team called Manchester City and its supporters are renowned for getting on the backs of certain players with detrimental results.

We are Manchester United fans so let`s support our lads. That does not exclude meaningful critiques of their performance (which is why I don`t think Diego is going to make it and am prepared to say it without personally attacking the man)but it does mean when Seba plays a good game he does not get labelled as `shite`.

<img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" /> <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" /> <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" /> <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" /> <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" /> <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" /> <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" />
 
I still think many united fans on here dont understand that its alright to critique a player and still support that player and the team at the same time.

United fans have been very patient with veron, we do support him and really hope that he can forefill his potential. But simply put, time is running out. A flash of brilliance here and there is simply not good enough, really, you can defend him all you want in the name of 'being a good united fan' but in the end you surely must know deep down that he is not fitting in.

Lets forget the money and his past for a minute, if we had picked him up from say Bradford city for 350,000 would he even be in the team? - I honestly doubt it.

Unfortunately, football is a business and you simply cant ignore the cost of a player. The fee plus wages for Veron are way out of line with what he is worth. I hope all those fans that were clammering for a 'big name player' are happy; we broke the bank to get one and he's turned out a dud.

Because of the money, fergie has no choice but to give veron playing time, whether he's playing well or not, fergie has to pray that he comes good so united can re-coupe some of that cash, which by the looks of things just aint going to happen anytime soon.

I hope and pray that veron starts to 'click' with the team, i really do hope he turns around and proves all those people who were on his back as soon as he signed wrong, and that he does become a huge success.

Im just not prepared to wait forever...
 
Originally posted by giggsgirl:
<strong>I think we need to keep in mind that from day one Veron`s signing for Manchester United was accompanied by unrealistically sky high expectations.

The one that springs to mind is Paul Scholes` (very) unwise and premature claim that Seba was going to be better than Eric Cantona. Yes, I know footballers are not renowned for their intelligence but Scholesy is a man who steers clear of exaggerations when discussing football.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Excuse. Expectation on Veron is relatively high which is true, and that happens to every high profile player in the world (Real's fans expectation on Zidane can only be higher), but that cannot used as an excuse for not turning on for 90%+ of matches in a season.


And don't understand why you singled out Scholes to blame. When Scholes praise and support Veron you blame him. But if Scholes said Veron will never be as good as Cantona people will also blame him. Also, when Veron just joined us some fans urged Scholes to make way or even want to sell him. Actually I don't understand why some so called "fans" can treat Scholes as badly as that. But today's match proved that the United player closest to Cantona is Scholes, not Veron or anyone else.
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"High expectations"? I never expected him to win the premiership and Champions league for us on his own, but good, consistent performances week in week out was what I DID expect for the amount we paid for him - and he hasn't yet delivered.
Not saying he won't come good, but as of yet, he's been a big waste of money.

Do those who think Veron was worth £28M, how do you think we would have fared had we NOT signed him? Better or worse?
 
I think he`s a class player just not suited to the premier, its too quick for him he doesn`t get enough time on the ball and is forced in to making rash passes which too often go astray, he`ll never be a "Cantona" not got his arrogance or confidence nor has he got his physical presence. Cantona was a genius,living legend <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" />
 
Veron is a good player ,he is not however a truly world class player.Why? Because he needs too much time on the ball to play his "killer pass"He has not been able to adapt to the pace of the premiership,a truly world class player would be able to adapt and dominate in any enviornment,(having been given an adequate amount of time to settle in)Veron unfortunately has not got the ability,nor will he ever in my opinion.He cannot tackle,he wastes too many balls,he disrupts the balance of the play.He is a good footballer,but too many years in Italy have stunted his growth as a player.I really hope that I am proved wrong.
 
I think Veron was the best united player for the few months before last year Christmas. Day after he seems like keeping his strength for World Cup because he had a high hope for his country. Now he is getting better but eventually he was been given some pressure by some of the fans. Some of his teammates are start losing faith to him in the game. I had saw sometimes his teammate refuse to pass the ball to him even he is clear. But that's not Alex Ferguson, the most thing I like about Fergie is he never give up to a good player who can get well.
Eventually I saw Scholes or Beckham playing like Veron (not in the sense of sloppy),
I believe that Veron had influences to them to learn new skill and getting better. Their all United player and like them all three. Beckham had a great right foot and talent, Scholes is clever and a fast learner and Veron is enigma ?
He is now the player I like to see in the Premiership because I like to see him play well
and show what's the class that content in the Manchester United.
 
Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

Excuse. Expectation on Veron is relatively high which is true, and that happens to every high profile player in the world (Real's fans expectation on Zidane can only be higher), but that cannot used as an excuse for not turning on for 90%+ of matches in a season.


And don't understand why you singled out Scholes to blame. When Scholes praise and support Veron you blame him. But if Scholes said Veron will never be as good as Cantona people will also blame him. Also, when Veron just joined us some fans urged Scholes to make way or even want to sell him. Actually I don't understand why some so called "fans" can treat Scholes as badly as that. But today's match proved that the United player closest to Cantona is Scholes, not Veron or anyone else.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Scholes is the most underrated player.
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I have faith in him too. Remember shall we, how fast the English league is. You have to operate at a completely different pace than in other european leagues, which means it takes a long time to learn the ropes. Yes, its been a year since he arrived but people seem to forget the form he was in when he arrived (Spurs game anyone?) and how much of an impact he has made against Deportivo in the QF of the CPL last year. Its not as if hes a £28mil cabbage, is he?

So yes, I have faith in him. He can produce the spark when no one else can.
 
Originally posted by One_hit_wonder:
<strong>good, consistent performances week in week out was what I DID expect for the amount we paid for him </strong><hr></blockquote>

Your expectations were then to high. we paid 28 million for him Summer 01. At the same time Beckham was valued at at least the same.
We had to very valuable players who underperformed last season. The fact that we had just paid the money for one of em shouldnt matter.
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

Your expectations were then to high. we paid 28 million for him Summer 01. At the same time Beckham was valued at at least the same.
We had to very valuable players who underperformed last season. The fact that we had just paid the money for one of em shouldnt matter.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh come on, I wasn't asking for the world, no Manchester United fan was, but a slight return on his transfer fee would have been welcomed. Truth is, we've become slightly WORSE since we've signed him (as well as Arse and Poo progressing a bit). Besides, Becks and the others have played consistently well at some stage throughout their careers here, JSV, as of yet hasn't, except for the short period after his arrival when he looked the part but since has never reached such heady heights.

Of course I didn't expect him to settle in immmedietly, but given the quality of players that surround him, he should be playing slightly better than he has, especially against the weaker sides. But as I said, I'm expecting him to improve, that is, unless he decides to leave.
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Originally posted by One_hit_wonder:
<strong>
Oh come on, I wasn't asking for the world, no Manchester United fan was, but a slight return on his transfer fee would have been welcomed. Truth is, we've become slightly WORSE since we've signed him (as well as Arse and Poo progressing a bit). Besides, Becks and the others have played consistently well at some stage throughout their careers here, JSV, as of yet hasn't, except for the short period after his arrival when he looked the part but since has never reached such heady heights.
Of course I didn't expect him to settle in immmedietly, but given the quality of players that surround him, he should be playing slightly better than he has, especially against the weaker sides. But as I said, I'm expecting him to improve, that is, unless he decides to leave.</strong><hr></blockquote>

you wernt asking the world. But my point is that a price tag shouldnt matter. He wasnt great but as i said neither was Beckham who for his rating and value also underperformed. If anything Veron should be given more slack thn the rest as hes new and foreign.
We wernt tht bad last season, our 2nd best season in Europe for over 30 yrs for starters.
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Don't forget Pirse had a poor first season for the Arse and last by the end of last season everyone though he was god (outside of Manchester)
Seba will be fine, he's willing to tough it out. If he wanted to leave he could have done, he has already said that he struggled last year.
This season has been an improvement.

For those who are criticising him, go and try and work in another country where you do not speak the language, and the way they work is totally different. See how easily you settle in, chances are you'll be looking for the next flight home
 
I think Seba is doing alright, he brings a certain type of skill that is hard to match. No need to go over the goals and set ups he has had playing in the champions league, something everybody was crying about last year, he scores in the PL but not in Europe, now its something else we dont like about him. The guy is a top notch player.....and there are 10 other guys on the pitch...remember???
 
Just check out the next Soccernet article after the win over Olympiakos. No by-line, BTW...

<a href="http://www.soccernet.com/championsleague/news/2002/1001/20021001mufcquotes.html" target="_blank">http://www.soccernet.com/championsleague/news/2002/1001/20021001mufcquotes.html</a>

<img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" /> <img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" /> <img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" />
 
Originally posted by Argiepoo:
<strong>Just check out the next Soccernet article after the win over Olympiakos. No by-line, BTW...

<a href="http://www.soccernet.com/championsleague/news/2002/1001/20021001mufcquotes.html" target="_blank">http://www.soccernet.com/championsleague/news/2002/1001/20021001mufcquotes.html</a>

<img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" /> <img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" /> <img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

I think we should not get to carried away, Greek football is crap, this team had not won a game outside of Greece in 17 games!!

One win against lowly opponents a season does not make.
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