Take 2 - Ferguson talks (without pinky and perky this time please)

[Dans]

Leave it in this forum please moderators.

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/2523347.stm" target="_blank">BBC story</a>

This should be discussed by all on here.

What do we think he's inferring when he says the nucleus has been together 7-9 years and needs assessing?

I'll tell you what I think. I think he means the nucleus has been together too long and is stale. I think he doesn't mean any member of this nucleus is a bad player but that they no longer click together in the way they did 5 years ago - effectively there is, more often than is good for us, an air of predictablity about our team and that we need to make some changes - a freshen up is needed because we are stale. I think he means that of those players it's quite conceivable that a couple are allowed to leave in favour of bringing in some fresh blood.

 

[Julian Denny]

This is an oldish quote after the City game and rather odd when you consider the considerable efforts made to get the key players on to more lucrative contracts. Maybe he thinks differently now. Obviously to strengthen the squad with one or two in January is the way to go but to replace the nucleus or whatever seems self defeating. Who do you get to replace the likes of Becks, Giggs, Keane at their best? What the last couple of games has shown is that the back up can play pretty well, given the opportunity. The answer is to drop underperformers no matter who they may be. Nobody should feel secure in the team if they are not performing and equally those on the sidelines should feel they can get a chance at any time as has happened recently.

 

[giggzy]

i think he's thinking about giving the nucleus a pay rise... maybe that'll get'em, motivated.

 

[WeasteDevil]

Take 2 - Ferguson talks (without pinky and perky this time please) <hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

 

[SPACEY]

Originally Posted by Dans:
I'll tell you what I think. I think he means the nucleus has been together too long and is stale. I think he doesn't mean any member of this nucleus is a bad player but that they no longer click together in the way they did 5 years ago - effectively there is, more often than is good for us, an air of predictablity about our team and that we need to make some changes - a freshen up is needed because we are stale. I think he means that of those players it's quite conceivable that a couple are allowed to leave in favour of bringing in some fresh blood. <hr></blockquote>

Didn't some people on this forum express this same opinion and were labelled muppets? I think can see Giggs leaving

 

[giggzy]

seriously tho' i think he's referring to giggs, becks and maybe the nevilles...

 

[WeasteDevil]

Keane, G Nev, Giggs

 

[Dans]

JD - I don't think he's inferring axing the entire nucleus, rather I think he feels a couple of players can move on in order for some new blood to inject something into our game that we miss at the moment. If we all sit here forever content with our players because they have performed and still can perform yet we ignore the fact that after so long together things have a tendency to go stale (and I agree with Wenger's 5 yr theory concerning the life of a team here - it may even be less) then we will not move on will we? If he said this after the City game it isn't that "old" either - it seems to be in his current thinking.

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>This is an oldish quote after the City game </strong><hr></blockquote>

that wouldn't surprise me..

if it is..its worked.. for now.

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by SPACEY:
<strong>

Didn't some people on this forum express this same opinion and were labelled muppets? I think can see Giggs leaving</strong><hr></blockquote>

They did indeed. feck em.

 

[mu77]

ppl reject change especially some one like giggs or keano , becks - they are MU thru and thru but change is natural!

 

[Dans]

I could see some people calling for Giggs and Beckham, Neville and Neville, Butt etc etc not to be benched at the start of the 2012 campaign and anyone disagreeing with them being labelled a muppet.

 

[pathfinder]

The thought scares me , seeing the likes of Becks Giggs, Keano, nevills going. I remember a while back thinking the same when Ince, Kan, and Hughs left, it worked though. Still a frightner.

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by pathfinder:
<strong>The thought scares me , seeing the likes of Becks Giggs, Keano, nevills going. I remember a while back thinking the same when Ince, Kan, and Hughs left, it worked though. Still a frightner.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Difference being those three were all non mancs and the mancer than mancs on here think that without the mancs our team somehow isn't as worthy as it should be in their eyes. They feel threatened by ABUs who laugh at them I think. Why anyone gives a feck what an ABU thinks is beyond me.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Beckham's just been made vice-captain and signed a new contract after a year's wrangling. Don't think its him.

Giggs is the oldest of our home grown guys, and been around the longest. He's also one of the most injury prone and losing his pace, and value, and possibly desire. He's most likely imo.

Keane is the frightening one, but he's the oldest, and his body has loads of problems, not to say his emotions too. No one knows how you can adequately replace him, but we're going to have to some time and with Keane repeatedly asking to not be captain anymore, you have to consider it.

The Nevilles are the other obvious candidates, but only one of those is really part of the nucleus, but I've always thought that they'd go as a 'job lot'.

Risky business, but Alex isn't afraid of taking risks and making brave decisions.

 

[phunky]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>Risky business, but Alex isn't afraid of taking risks and making brave decisions.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Quite rightly put. SAF calls every single shot while he's still ard.. doubt he would consider whether the mentioned players are Manc anot.

 

[mu77]

neil - keano's been sayin' he no longer wants the arm band? not good!

 

[redevil2]

only time will tell whether what i am saying below is right. But my hunch is, 'dont read too much' into what is said by SAF other than just to show the players that they are not irreplaceable and that they have to fight for thier positions and it's not automatic for any of them to be in the first team, unless they do deliver. SAF belive in his own vision and i think he believes in his players, just that they need to be reminded from time to time. One other possible reason for him to say this is, Keano might be indicating his desire to fade out as the core of the team and this would make a huge difference in SAF's overall strategy in the future. Obviously Becks did not fill the shoes satisfactorily of the captaincy in our mighty keano so far. And SAF has to think really hard in getting a REAL replacement without upsetting (or demoralising )Becks.

In any event, i dont see a major change in the near future (before next season) if we are getting result in the next 2, 3 weeks.

That's my 2 ps worth.

 

[pathfinder]

Difference being those three were all non mancs and the mancer than mancs on here think that without the mancs our team somehow isn't as worthy as it should be in their eyes
I like having home grown players at our club, expecialy those that are born and raised in Manchester. They must have a different sence in pride surly. I have a general fondnes for players that come through the ranks at united more than those bought from foreign clubs for a large sum.Of course there are some exeptions.
looking at Arsenals line up last night, 5 french players and a french manager, they could call themselves Arsenal paris.

 

[Dans]

Originally posted by pathfinder:
<strong>Difference being those three were all non mancs and the mancer than mancs on here think that without the mancs our team somehow isn't as worthy as it should be in their eyes
I like having home grown players at our club, expecialy those that are born and raised in Manchester. They must have a different sence in pride surly. I have a general fondnes for players that come through the ranks at united more than those bought from foreign clubs for a large sum.Of course there are some exeptions.
looking at Arsenals line up last night, 5 french players and a french manager, they could call themselves Arsenal paris.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes but sadly this is not very often the case these days. This United team is the only one for a long while that has had so many local boys in the team and there probably won't be another for many many years. I don't believe that Cantona, Keane, Hughes, McClair etc etc gave any less than 100% and had any less pride in playing for United than the players you mention. At the end of the day does it really affect what happens on the pitch or does it satisfy those who believe that our identity is at stake?

 

[Julian Denny]

Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>JD - I don't think he's inferring axing the entire nucleus, rather I think he feels a couple of players can move on in order for some new blood to inject something into our game that we miss at the moment. If we all sit here forever content with our players because they have performed and still can perform yet we ignore the fact that after so long together things have a tendency to go stale (and I agree with Wenger's 5 yr theory concerning the life of a team here - it may even be less) then we will not move on will we? If he said this after the City game it isn't that "old" either - it seems to be in his current thinking.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If you talk about "re-building", and that is what Fergie has been quoted as saying, then you're talking about some pretty extensive changes I would have thought. I still think he said that somewhat in a fit of pique after City. However,here's nothing wrong with a fresh approach or to go off in another direction but I think Fergie has been trying to do this anyway in the last couple of seasons. My point is that the bulk of our squad is still relatively young and just about reaching their peaks. To suggest that we should get rid of Giggs, Becks, Gary Neville, Roy Keane or even Ole just because they've been around for a while is ludicrous, although, unlike many, you're not suggesting that. Then the most important point, who do you replace them with? Say you sold off four of those at the end of the season, are there that number of quality internationals who could take their places and would fit in at United? With Veron in mind the latter point is very relevant. It has often been said that one of our strengths has been the fact that many of our squad have grown up together. Now suddenly in some peoples eyes this is no longer a benefit. Furthermore, half the 1999 side have gone and we've had some new, albeit expensive, new faces introduced since then. So a freshening up has taken place anyway, although question marks remain over Veron, Barthez & Forlan for one reason or another. Effectively it is a new team to all intents and purposes.
Because I'm trying to remain positive about this season and what Fergie's trying to do, I will refrain from pointing a finger at him for the time being except to say that it's his job to get them playing as they should do. Maybe, just maybe, he's beginning to succeed again. We'll know pretty soon !

 

[Dans]

redevil2 you may well be right, but I feel Ferguson has had to resort to this tactic more often than he'd like to and that he may mean it this time.

 

[pathfinder]

At the end of the day does it really affect what happens on the pitch or does it satisfy those who believe that our identity is at stake?
Good point, I hated the era where we could not play our best team in europe because of the foregne rule, I always thought that we could have been champions of europe a lot sooner. However i never considered that the rule was for everyone!., im starting to realize the benefits of that rule.
Getting back to the subject, There are not, if any better players on the left wing as Giggs,There is not a better player than Becks on the right, so they are at the moment ireplacable. And Keano in midfield!!! there aint many around in his calibre either. this is a difficult time for Alex...im sure he will come through it.

 

[Dans]

JD - my point was not that individuals are past it or should be got rid of for the sake of getting rid of people. Rather I think as a team, as a group of individuals who have played together for a long time maybe some of the magic, if you like, has been lost. I'm talking about changes for the benefit of the group potentially being what is in order.

 

[pathfinder]

a good 2 ps worth redevil2

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by pathfinder:
<strong>At the end of the day does it really affect what happens on the pitch or does it satisfy those who believe that our identity is at stake?
Good point, I hated the era where we could not play our best team in europe because of the foregne rule, I always thought that we could have been champions of europe a lot sooner. However i never considered that the rule was for everyone!., im starting to realize the benefits of that rule.
Getting back to the subject, There are not, if any better players on the left wing as Giggs,There is not a better player than Becks on the right, so they are at the moment ireplacable. And Keano in midfield!!! there aint many around in his calibre either. this is a difficult time for Alex...im sure he will come through it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Of course there can't be many players as good as these, because they're world class. But we're not the only team to have world class players. Arsenal's midfielders of Pires Vieira Ljungberg were very comparable with Giggs Keane Beckham last season. To be honest with you, I'd never heard of Pires and Vieira before they were bought. Its just possible that the replacements won't already be at their peak, but will be young and to peak at a later date. Yes, that might mean a lean spell for a couple of years, but if that's followed by another 8 years of continued success, that would have been worth it.

 

[Julian Denny]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
Of course there can't be many players as good as these, because they're world class. But we're not the only team to have world class players. Arsenal's midfielders of Pires Vieira Ljungberg were very comparable with Giggs Keane Beckham last season. To be honest with you, I'd never heard of Pires and Vieira before they were bought. Its just possible that the replacements won't already be at their peak, but will be young and to peak at a later date. Yes, that might mean a lean spell for a couple of years, but if that's followed by another 8 years of continued success, that would have been worth it.</strong>
<hr></blockquote>

Maybe, but do we have the ability & resources to uncover the future Pires, Viera & Ljundberg's of this world ? From recent evidence I think not. I still think it's very premature to be thinking of replacing most of our established squad just because the system they are asked to play to keeps changing and doesn't always work. The more I think about this the more I think it's a Fergie smokescreen anyway.

 

[Gabe]

Its unrealistic to expect to bring a crop of first teamers through the youth system, never mind finding them in Manchester- we are talking about at least international level players, and really to be a force; world class players. Definately, homegrown players give identity and team ethic which is vital, but if we can improve the team by bringing in new players, without losing team spirit then so be it. For example the plan to bring in Escude, who could add depth to the defence and challenge Sillvestre, is the right kind of move.

 

[Livvie]

Denis Irwin just said on MUTV that maybe Fergie is going to sell off some of the older players.

The word nucleus implies more than just a couple.

Now whether or not that's the case, is it wise to say this just prior to a big game? The players have just got their confidence back, and are playing with a bit of purpose. Do they need this in the back of their minds?

Fighting for your place is one thing and can inspire a good performance - fighting to stay at the club might be a tad more pressure and have an adverse affect.

 

[redevil2]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>Denis Irwin just said on MUTV that maybe Fergie is going to sell off some of the older players.

The word nucleus implies more than just a couple.

Now whether or not that's the case, is it wise to say this just prior to a big game? The players have just got their confidence back, and are playing with a bit of purpose. Do they need this in the back of their minds?

Fighting for your place is one thing and can inspire a good performance - fighting to stay at the club might be a tad more pressure and have an adverse affect.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i wouldnt worry too much! You are underestimating the lads' self confidence if you do think they will be more pressurized this way. Plus, i dont really believe there is adverse effect. On the contrary, it gives them an extra edge having more incentive to get the three points we need. I think it proves to be the case earlier in the season when phil N was rumored to be packing it in and all of a sudden he was playing some good football, even in the midfield!

 

[Sydius]

GIGGS FOR RECOBA, ANYONE?!?

 

[curt]

Originally posted by Sydius:
<strong>GIGGS FOR RECOBA, ANYONE?!?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Giggs for Duff, if anything. Why bother with another South American who would take time to adjust just like the other 2 have done.

 

[Raoul]

IMO, he probably means Keane and the Neville's, and possibly Giggs.

 

[Amir]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>with Keane repeatedly asking to not be captain anymore, you have to consider it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

More wild rumours sweeping Manchester?
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>

IMO, he probably means Keane and the Neville's, and possibly Giggs. </strong><hr></blockquote>

but why keane??


of all the players we've got he's the one with most hunger...


he's still got atleast two good seasons...

name me a player, who could do a better job for united?? not many that i can think of.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by Amir:
<strong>

More wild rumours sweeping Manchester?
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
No, just what he said in his book.

 

[LenSharkey]

Originally posted by Sydius:
<strong>GIGGS FOR RECOBA, ANYONE?!?</strong><hr></blockquote>

what that lazy-arsed gargoyle?

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
No, just what he said in his book.</strong><hr></blockquote>

what exactly did he say, neil?

sure it wasn't outta context?

 

[michael owen's mum]

Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>IMO, he probably means Keane and the Neville's, and possibly Giggs.</strong><hr></blockquote>


i think you're probably right, raoul.

i'd add barthez to that list though.

 

[Neil Thomson]

Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

what exactly did he say, neil?

sure it wasn't outta context?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Haven't got the book on me at the moment, but I remember it wasn't only just after the Newcastle game.