Synth Draft SF - Moby vs EAP/RT

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I meant for purely aestetic purposes as he also has an arrow pointing inside. You'd need him far more occupying the flank rather than cutting inside which works in Moby's favor.

Just a flexibility option. If I have ball in left flank and Cruyff is dragging Vogts out wide, Bettega will move to middle with Weah stretching play ahead. Shows flexibility both ways.

Different ball game. They took an early lead which changed the mechanics of the match. I'm pretty sure if we didn't concede in the opening 10 mins we would succumb pressure far more often.

Point I mention above. Defending a lead.

Back 3 with 1 out of position player. No fullbacks. No winger with defensive workrate = No defending a lead.

If I get a score, a la Mou's Inter.... I can and will defend deep and have more ability to protect my lead.

 

[Moby]

Don't need to. Against your "non-existant" flank defence, my grandmother can move the ball forward effectively.

The goal is in the middle though and protected just fine.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

The goal is in the middle though and protected just fine.

If only protecting the goal was as simple of putting some people there. McGrath is a weakness you can't afford.

 

[Moby]

McGrath is a weakness you can't afford.

Based on what? He's asked to defend a fairly central threat here in Bettega, not much problem for the guy who took out Baggio while not being 100% fit.

 

[Moby]

We can see just how the change in formations has positively impacted the game for me:

1. His players had been preparing for a completely different tactic, as precisely written in his OP. They were not prepared to face all three of Zico, Tostao and Romario and expected Tostao to be on the bench. To change the entire tactic after kick off isn't easy, and can go horribly wrong.
2. Now due to the setup his entire attack which will be limited in number are focussed down a wingback when his best player in Cruyff who is well marshalled between my midfield and defense watched on as a few floating crosses land nowhere in the box.
3. His entire defense is pinned back, outnumbered and overloaded having to constantly face a barrage of combinations that are irresistible and have some of the greatest players of their generations having the ball for the majority of the game.
4. His wingback (REALISTICALLY, not as per his - suicidal - instructions) will be pinned back and not be able to provide the required width while the central core also having to face a huge challenge.

Cruyff is just not in his element in this game. As compared to the likes of Zico and Romario who are enjoying the service and possession deep into enemy territory and have the chance to impact the game with end product. Cruyff, a man at his best in fluid, attacking, dominating sides who have players with freedom to be fluid and move as per his requirement, is now stranded watching his team scatter around to defend a mouth watering attacking force, his midfielders getting bullied off the ball and conceding possession time and again and when they do get the ball, it's given to a wingback who is going to somehow penetrate the entire opposition defense.

His attack is blunt, impotent and isn't supported with the platform that would provide them the opportunity to impact the game. Even in an even possession battle, I'll anyday take my front men over his to make the most of the chances they get, but in this case there's no chance he will ever score more than my team - no chance.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

He's asked to defend a fairly central threat here in Bettega

Come on, that's just nonsense.

Bettega was a wing forward and very good at stretching defence and peeling off wide. He's one of the best Italian strikers of all time, intelligent and versatile. In this game, there is nothing "central" about Bettega (unless ball is on other flank).

Between him and Demyanenko, McGrath just won't cut the mark. Great player, but you are expecting the impossible. He's a weakness, no two ways about it.

 

[Moby]

Come on, that's just nonsense.

Bettega was a wing forward and very good at stretching defence and peeling off wide. He's one of the best Italian strikers of all time, intelligent and versatile. In this game, there is nothing "central" about Bettega (unless ball is on other flank).

Between him and Demyanenko, McGrath just won't cut the mark. Great player, but you are expecting the impossible. He's a weakness, no two ways about it.

This isn't the first time he would be coming against a mobile forward. He's a cracking defender first and foremost and here he's defending a forward who isn't going to go wider than his comfort zone, that's his job, period. He'll have 4 other defenders next to him, your midfield isn't gonna throw much to load my duo off the ball and they'd gladly help out in plugging any spaces.

I'm not denying that my setup isn't flawless or anything, you just don't have the tools in your team to exploit that, especially compared to what I've thrown at you. You need better quality in midfield and attack at this stage.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

We can see just how the change in formations has positively impacted the game for me:

1. His players had been preparing for a completely different tactic, as precisely written in his OP. They were not prepared to face all three of Zico, Tostao and Romario and expected Tostao to be on the bench. To change the entire tactic after kick off isn't easy, and can go horribly wrong.

Now you are going all anto

Most of what was said above is nonsense. Yes, your formation was offbeat, but had no impact. My strategy was "defend through middle, attack out wide" and it stayed the same. You can see it mentioned in OP and I'm sticking by it.

I was hoping to exploit Pearce, but by removing him without a replacement, you just made my strategy easier. No need to exploit, I have a straight route to your goal. A weak CB just makes it worse for you.

 

[Moby]

Now you are going all anto

It was a bit tongue in cheek but going all anto would be saying that will decide the game, I'm not saying that, but it's definitely a factor - match preparation and anticipating your opponent matters in big games, it's what makes managers good 'tactically' when they are tactically prepared.

 

[Moby]

I was hoping to exploit Pearce, but by removing him without a replacement,

You are making it sound like I am playing with 10 men.

There was a replacement, in a different part of the pitch and it's impact has been discussed in great detail.

I have a straight route to your goal corner flag.

Fixed.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

This isn't the first time he would be coming against a mobile forward. He's a cracking defender first and foremost and here he's defending a forward who isn't going to go wider than his comfort zone, that's his job, period. He'll have 4 other defenders next to him, your midfield isn't gonna throw much to load my duo off the ball and they'd gladly help out in plugging any spaces.

I'm not going to get dragged down when you misrepresent a fairly famous player. Mobile forward is not wing forward. He's played left wing for Italy and Right Wing for Juventus. Gigted, good workrate and a classic supporting striker.

Bettega's ability to stretch wide is beyond question. McGrath's lack of ability to do so is also beyond question..

There are no two ways about it.

 

[Moby]

I'm not going to get dragged down when you misrepresent a fairly famous player. Mobile forward is not wing forward. He's played left wing for Italy and Right Wing for Juventus. Gigted, good workrate and a classic supporting striker.

Bettega's ability to stretch wide is beyond question. McGrath's lack of ability to do so is also beyond question..

There are no two ways about it.

Yeah, you have Demyanenko and Bettega getting some joy.

I have Zico, Futre and Houseman getting a LOT of joy. There in lies the difference. I've asked a couple of times, how are you stopping Zico from taking this game away from you?

Even if Branco doesn't come forward, Houseman will skip past him, but when he's not there...

So I would advise you to not go into who has more 'weaknesses'.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

And Frankly, it doesn't matter at all.

Tactical Change: @Physiocrat can I update OP with this?

Cruyff and Bettega switch flanks. Cruyff will face an out of position McGrath and my advantage is enhanced.

 

[Moby]

Cruyff will face an out of position McGrath and my advantage is enhanced.

Won't Cruyff be even more central than Bettega?

Also, I can also switch Vogts and McGrath.

 

[2mufc0]

Got no issue with Moby's front 3 they are brilliant but the team seems to be unbalanced and too top heavy. The lack of width is where Edgar will win this game, don't think Futre has the work rate to man the flank by himself, but not sure about Houseman's work rate , so won't say whether he could man his flank. . Not sure if McGrath played in that position also?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Won't Cruyff be even more central than Bettega?

Really?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

don't think Futre has the work rate to man the flank by himself, but not sure about Houseman's work rate , so won't say whether he could man his flank. . Not sure if McGrath played in that position also?

Neither could. McGrath didn't.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Neither could. McGrath didn't.

Tbf, he wasn't a man marker either (United or Villa) ..... but that didn't seem to bother him when he was asked to man mark Baggio in the WC and took him out of the game?

Whether Mobys team should have a 'traditional' LB is up for debate (tbf, I can see it helping) but I don't see McGrath as any form of weak link or unable to flex his play and cover a wide player.... he was one of the most naturally gifted players from UK/Rep I've ever seen.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

and cover a wide player

That's the point. Cover whom? Without fullbacks, he'll have to handle Demyanenko and Cruyff all alone.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Moby has been playing a blinder this draft. Very bold formation but it results in countering how Edgar set out this match IMO. The key is that Edgar relies on wingbacks for wide attack which plays right into this formation. Futre and Houseman keep Branco and Demyanenko pinned back. And the 3 at the back set up is going to create problems defending against Zico with both Romario and Tostao's movement.

 

[Gio]

Why is Bettega playing ahead of Laudrup? Don't see much point in playing the physicality card against Vogts/McGrath especially when the powerful Weah is already providing presence.

Moby wins the quality battle for me. I do think Demyanenko could be EAP's most influential weapon careering into all that open space before feeding the more gifted attackers.

 

[Enigma_87]

Why is Bettega playing ahead of Laudrup? Don't see much point in playing the physicality card against Vogts/McGrath especially when the powerful Weah is already providing presence.

Moby wins the quality battle for me. I do think Demyanenko could be EAP's most influential weapon careering into all that open space before feeding the more gifted attackers.

Aye, at the end this is what it shades it for me. Laudrup in there could be a different picture I guess, but across the pitch Moby has a bit more quality.

 

[don't sign old players]

The agile attack comprising Tostao and Romario with Zico is the difference, but I think Souness suits them perfectly because he had a monstrous workrate and kept the ball moving along the ground. Rijkaard fits perfectly too. Essentially he's a DM, but he'd be lethal concealed weapon in this game.

 

[idmanager]

Watched a fair bit of Futre out of curiosity today as it was bugging me since the start of the draft as to how good he was on the left.
Was pretty good on the left as well if not as good as on the right.

Always like picking players like Figo early to have that flexibility later with respect to the other winger and Futre is one I will keep in mind for future drafts.

Of course, I still don't like him at all in this setup, but that is a different issue all together.

 

[Physiocrat]

And Frankly, it doesn't matter at all.

Tactical Change: @Physiocrat can I update OP with this?

Cruyff and Bettega switch flanks. Cruyff will face an out of position McGrath and my advantage is enhanced.

I know this is late but yeah update no problem.

 

[Mani]

Moby's front 3 seals this for me the threat these three posses to the EAP's back line would be higher,also comparatively better MF 2.He got clearer path to goal compared to EAP's.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Congrats Moby, I'll be busy a bit, but have posted all I wanted to.

Twice I've been done in by a classic formation now.

A good LCB and you are good to challenge for the finals. All the best!

 

[Physiocrat]

@oneniltothearsenal What do you think of Zico with Tostao and Romario together? I remember you thought Zico and Pele was suboptimal so wondered what you thought of this.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I've got some sympathy with Edgar's tactical arguments regarding his wing backs here. Sure, on the balance of play they'll be pegged back alot of the time by Aldo's wingers, but I'm not convinced by the argument that they can't afford to attack at all. Firstly, there's just not much of a quality differential between EAP's wing backs and Aldo's wingers. More importantly, it just doesn't really tally with how football is played these days. Particurly with a very well-constructed three man central defence and a defensively-orientated central midfield, one of Demyanenko and Branco can risk getting forward in possession without constantly being exposed on the counter. In Branco's case he doesn't even need to advance that far to bring that brilliant left peg into effect.

That said, I'm not convinced that McGrath would have had the nightmarish game against Bettega that was suggested (Cruyff presents a different set of problems entirely). He was excellent covering in wide areas as a centre back, has played at full back albeit at right back, and Joga made a great all touches video of him in a left-sided midfield role against Platini's Juventus.

Also, Bettega really needs more exploration as a player in one of these drafts. I know he played as a right-sided attacker later in his career, but I don't think we've seen any footage of significance (or any footage at all?) of how he played that role. From the bits and pieces I've seen and read he seems decidedly like a centre forward who was played out there due to workrate and tactical discipline rather than a natural fit as a wide man.

Partly related to that and moreso due to the general tactics and shape of the match, I think I'd have preferred a formation graphic and tactic that overtly committed to containment and counter-attacking:

Figueroa placed firmly in the defensive line, the whole team pulled deeper, and Bettega and Weah as more of a classic partnership: harassing the deeper players in Aldo's build up, working channels, linking up on attack, with Cruyff dropping deep to orchestrate it all as soon as they regain possession.

 

[idmanager]

Partly related to that and moreso due to the general tactics and shape of the match, I think I'd have preferred a formation graphic and tactic that overtly committed to contaiment and counter-attacking:

Figueroa placed firmly in the defensive line, the whoe team pulled deeper, and Bettega and Weah as more of a classic partnership: harassing the deeper players in Aldo's build up, working channels, linking up on attack, with Cruyff dropping deep to orchestrate it all as soon as they regain possession.

Might as well play Laudrup there instead of Bettega and with Cruyff moving up, but then that plays right into Rijkaard and Souness' hands.
Think Weah and Bettega don't have the voter pull at this stage which say a MvB and Baggio/Henry sort of pair could have had.

 

[Gio]

I've got some sympathy with Edgar's tactical arguments regarding his wing backs here. Sure, on the balance of play they'll be pegged back alot of the time by Aldo's wingers, but I'm not convinced by the argument that they can't afford to attack at all. Firstly, there's just not much of a quality differential between EAP's wing backs and Aldo's wingers. More importantly, it just doesn't really tally with how football is played these days. Particurly with a very well-constructed three man central defence and a defensively-orientated central midfield, one of Demyanenko and Branco can risk getting forward in possession without constantly being exposed on the counter. In Branco's case he doesn't even need to advance that far to bring that brilliant left peg into effect.

That said, I'm not convinced that McGrath would have had the nightmarish game against Bettega that was suggested (Cruyff presents a different set of problems entirely). He was excellent covering in wide areas as a centre back, has played at full back albeit at right back, and Joga made a great all touches video of him in a left-sided midfield role against Platini's Juventus.

Also, Bettega really needs more exploration as a player in one of these drafts. I know he played as a right-sided attacker later in his career, but I don't think we've seen any footage of significance (or any footage at all?) of how he played that role. From the bits and pieces I've seen and read he seems decidedly like a centre forward who was played out there due to workrate and tactical discipline rather than a natural fit as a wide man.

Partly related to that and moreso due to the general tactics and shape of the match, I think I'd have preferred a formation graphic and tactic that overtly committed to containment and counter-attacking:

Figueroa placed firmly in the defensive line, the whoe team pulled deeper, and Bettega and Weah as more of a classic partnership: harassing the deeper players in Aldo's build up, working channels, linking up on attack, with Cruyff dropping deep to orchestrate it all as soon as they regain possession.

This, this and this.

Think that's somewhat reminiscent of @antohan's contain and counter approach in the 50s draft.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

@oneniltothearsenal What do you think of Zico with Tostao and Romario together? I remember you thought Zico and Pele was suboptimal so wondered what you thought of this.

I think it would work like a charm against Edgar's set-up. I do think it would be weak against other tactics but against this one, it works well.

The Zico-Pele was more about that one specific tactic. I just didn't like the Ronaldo-Pele(70 version)-Zico in the center the way it was in that tactic. There was too much overlap between 70Pele and Zico in space with Ronaldo and relying on those three to switch out to the left to provide width. In general I probably wouldn't play 70 Pele and Zico together but for me that tactic exacerbated the overlap rather than compensating for it.

Here Zico is surrounded by technical players with great off the ball movement so he is in his element. I generally like Tostao/Romario with Zico more than Pele anyway but that could be personal preference.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Won't Cruyff be even more central than Bettega?

Also, I can also switch Vogts and McGrath.

I think you could have potentially started the match with McGrath on the right and Vogts as the LCB. Vogts has played on the left before, most notably against Johnstone in the WC qualifiers where he kept him quiet on both (iirc) occasions. Likewise, McGrath is relatively more comfortable on the right, always playing as the RCB and even as an RB at times (such as that display against Netherlands in Euro 1988 and against the Danish Dynamites for eg). It would make more sense with Rijkaard being there as the DM dropping into defense, I'd much rather Vogts on the left flank than McGrath myself.

 

[Physiocrat]

I think it would work like a charm against Edgar's set-up. I do think it would be weak against other tactics but against this one, it works well.

The Zico-Pele was more about that one specific tactic. I just didn't like the Ronaldo-Pele(70 version)-Zico in the center the way it was in that tactic. There was too much overlap between 70Pele and Zico in space with Ronaldo and relying on those three to switch out to the left to provide width. In general I probably wouldn't play 70 Pele and Zico together but for me that tactic exacerbated the overlap rather than compensating for it.

Here Zico is surrounded by technical players with great off the ball movement so he is in his element. I generally like Tostao/Romario with Zico more than Pele anyway but that could be personal preference.

Thanks for that. I thought he was using the 60s Pele then but yes the width provision was the main problem.

 

[Moby]

I think you could have potentially started the match with McGrath on the right and Vogts as the LCB. Vogts has played on the left before, most notably against Johnstone in the WC qualifiers where he kept him quiet on both (iirc) occasions. Likewise, McGrath is relatively more comfortable on the right, always playing as the RCB and even as an RB at times (such as that display against Netherlands in Euro 1988 and against the Danish Dynamites for eg). It would make more sense with Rijkaard being there as the DM dropping into defense, I'd much rather Vogts on the left flank than McGrath myself.

Yeah, that had crossed my mind, and it would have made sense. I personally didn't see a big deal in which side either of them play given that even with Vogts on the right I've not exactly put him there for his ability out wide - they have identical jobs and that are primarily of out and out defensive roles that would work in tandem with Scirea. It's a fairly simplistic defensive profile for which the primary skillset required in terms of pure defending is possessed by both at around the same degree. I also expected Cruyff to start on the left so that just tilted the scale a little bit given Vogts' history with him but neither would be having any particular difficulty defending those inside channels either side in my opinion.

 

[Enigma_87]

This, this and this.

Think that's somewhat reminiscent of @antohan's contain and counter approach in the 50s draft.

I really don't see what Bettega brings, especially in counter attacking approach that Laudrup can't deliver, along with his obvious upgrade on vision, technique and passing ability.

It's not like he's a possession player type that can't operate in different system.

A 5-3-2 or a 3-5-2 with Laudrup/Cruyff in free roles and Weah running through the lines is what I expected to see from Edgar before the game tbh.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Might as well play Laudrup there instead of Bettega and with Cruyff moving up, but then that plays right into Rijkaard and Souness' hands.
Think Weah and Bettega don't have the voter pull at this stage which say a MvB and Baggio/Henry sort of pair could have had.

In the set up I posted? Laudrup would have hated it IMO and would likely have ended up going AWOL. If he was prone to drifting out of matches even in a favourable set up this really isn't his gig. Bettega would be far better in the defensive phase, better at foraging and feeding off scraps, and far more likely to nick a goal on the counter.

The reinforcements done Edgar in here. Not being able to play Robbo left him at a disadvantage in terms of quality, which in turn made Laudrup an ill fit.

This, this and this.

Think that's somewhat reminiscent of @antohan's contain and counter approach in the 50s draft.

Aye, that's ringing some bells for me.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I've got some sympathy with Edgar's tactical arguments regarding his wing backs here. Sure, on the balance of play they'll be pegged back alot of the time by Aldo's wingers, but I'm not convinced by the argument that they can't afford to attack at all. Firstly, there's just not much of a quality differential between EAP's wing backs and Aldo's wingers. More importantly, it just doesn't really tally with how football is played these days. Particurly with a very well-constructed three man central defence and a defensively-orientated central midfield, one of Demyanenko and Branco can risk getting forward in possession without constantly being exposed on the counter. In Branco's case he doesn't even need to advance that far to bring that brilliant left peg into effect.

This is what I was on about!

That said, I'm not convinced that McGrath would have had the nightmarish game against Bettega that was suggested (Cruyff presents a different set of problems entirely). He was excellent covering in wide areas as a centre back, has played at full back albeit at right back, and Joga made a great all touches video of him in a left-sided midfield role against Platini's Juventus.

It's not really McGrath vs Bettega....as you have an overlapping fullback supporting on either flank. A off position McGrath double teamed when I have possession is a clear mismatch imo.

This was what I had in mind, but with Rijkaard and Souness they have 2 GOAT DMs who can track Cruyff's movement centrally. I wanted him in a place where he can drift out wide and exploit space where Aldo doesn't have any players and link with wingbacks.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I really don't see what Bettega brings, especially in counter attacking approach that Laudrup can't deliver, along with his obvious upgrade on vision, technique and passing ability.

Simply put, Laudrup operates in front of his defence. Bettega will operate behind his defence.

If Pearce was there as LB, Bettega would be making runs behind him with Demyanenko taking him on ahead. Plus Bettega has a better goal threat than Laudrup.

The formation was based on a defend in middle and attack through wings tactics. Though Laudrup is capable of drifting left, to exploit the gap between a CB and LB, Bettega is better suited.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

It's not really McGrath vs Bettega....as you have an overlapping fullback supporting on either flank. A off position McGrath double teamed when I have possession is a clear mismatch imo.

Aye, the lack of anyone designated to track Demyanenko is problematic for Aldo in fairness, although you could put McGrath pretty much anywhere on the pitch and I'd struggle to accept that he won't get the job done .

This was what I had in mind, but with Rijkaard and Souness they have 2 GOAT DMs who can track Cruyff's movement centrally. I wanted him in a place where he can drift out wide and exploit space where Aldo doesn't have any players and link with wingbacks.

In that formation graphic I was actually going to put the two arrows on Cruyff horizantally. Ideally you'd want about 8 arrows on him, just to show that he's going to roam absolutely anywhere to pick up the ball. Think his run to win the penalty vs West Germany in the 1974 WC final, where he's the deepest Dutch player on the pitch at one point except for their goalkeeper.

Simply put, Laudrup operates in front of his defence. Bettega will operate behind his defence.

Aye, this, and Bettega's play with his back to goal is also a huge plus. This is a slightly odd example, picked solely as it happened to appear on my TV screen a few minutes ago, but look at how Boksic wins the ball for his goal from 0:50 in this video:



In reality winning those loose balls and countering from there is likely to be hugely important if a counter-attacking strategy against such a formidable team is going to have a chance, and Bettega/Weah are much more suited to that than Laudrup.