With the 2 attackers having the ball and who are not stationary objects?
Are you seriously defending the fact that Tostao and Romario in a 2v2 with Blanc and Vierchowod with the ball at their feet wouldn't absolutely murder them in that scenario?
Synth Draft: Final - Moby vs Invictus
- Thread starter Physiocrat
- Start date
Are you seriously defending the fact that Tostao and Romario in a 2v2 with Blanc and Vierchowod with the ball at their feet wouldn't absolutely murder them in that scenario?
Au contraire. Having a eclectic mix of uniquely gifted attacking threats through the center and out wide gives us the perfect cast to spread open your defense with variety whilst also freeing up room for Van Basten through the middle.
And defenders who aren't stationary, either?
Kindly re-read the post because I'm not going to reply to any more Blanc + Vierchowod 'absolutely murder' nonsense when they're backed by Schmeichel and flanked by Krol (who can concentrate on defense when he feels like in the absence of a surging Cafu-esque wingback). Aye, murdering two of the greatest defenders of the modern era when they're aided by one of the greatest defenders of all time and one of the greatest keepers of all time. Makes absolute sense because Romário and Tostão innit.
Fortunately I have an extra defender and two defensively brilliant DMs (not box to box players but actual DMs) that will cover the entire space against your attack.
The point was regarding the off the ball movement and how useful are the likes of Best and Dzajic off the ball - both of whom have created their legacy on isolating defenders and being quality 1v1 attackers. It's similar to having Maradona and Garrincha together, they are individually excellent but one can't say they compliment each other perfectly. Maradona usually played with attackers who were happy to let him do the talking while providing brilliant runs and movement off the ball. Best and Dzajic with someone else dominating the ball are sub-optimum, to say the least.
Actually makes sense in any 2v2 scenario.
Aye, an extra defender for you will make a world of difference, but the extra attacker we have should be discounted...
Best wasn't anything like Garrincha given his selflessness and ability to co-exist (or rather, thrive) with two Ballon D'Or winning attackers in Charlton and Law, so I dunno why the latter has been brought up. To sell a devious narrative perhaps? The attack should be brilliant because all the players realize that there are enough threats to trouble the opposition when they pass the ball. Maradona being a tour de force for some of the teams he played in is beside the point because he knew that if he didn't pull the proverbial rabbit out of the hat, no one else would. Here there are a plethora of options to pass to in great positions, plus it takes the attention away from all attackers and distributes it evenly - which is great for exploiting defensive lapses.
Because it was Charlton and Law who sacrificed time on the ball to have Best isolate defenders, not the other way round.
It went both ways, mate - Charlton and Law weren't saints that completely sacrificed their game for selfish brat Best, come on please.
Anyway, it behooves us to highlight the prowess of Van Basten when it comes to negotiating with deep sat defenses. This is someone whose bread and butter was being the focal point for Milan in peak Serie A and scoring at a high rate against resolute opposition:
Ballon d'Or: 1988, 1989, 1992
UEFA Best Player of the Year: 1989, 1990, 1992
Serie A Golden Boot: 1989–90, 1991–92
He has the ideal skillset needed for this game in terms of breaking the 5 personnel defense given the complete nature of his game as a spearhead par excellence.
Ballon d'Or: 1988, 1989, 1992
UEFA Best Player of the Year: 1989, 1990, 1992
Serie A Golden Boot: 1989–90, 1991–92
He has the ideal skillset needed for this game in terms of breaking the 5 personnel defense given the complete nature of his game as a spearhead par excellence.
Also, since a lot has been made of Romário apparently murdering Vierchowod and Blanc because he's part of a strike pairing against a suicidal central defensive tandem, here's a matchup between Romário and a Blanc-led French defense - which conceded 0 goals from open play in a 1-1 stalemate against Fenómeno and Romário (which is unarguably better than Romário and Tostão) in the 1997 Tournoi de France. Brazil's solitary goal came through Roberto Carlos' now legendary banana free kick:
Individual team comments-
Invictus: Tigana with Matthaus is sub-optimal- you really want a DM in there especially with Zico around. Individualistic front four but I don't see a huge issue there, it's not as if they offer no off the ball movement. You've made a spirited defense of Vierchowod but Romario, along with R9, are peculiarly difficult to deal with due to their explosive acceleration, dribbling and finishing. There are very few defenders who would get the upper hand against him especially with Zico in behind and Tostao alongside.
Moby- Vogts can bomb forward but I'd prefer someone better going forward as a wingback. That said not a major problem. The main question here is can you keep that front four out. Souness and Rikjaard are an excellent two in front of the back 5. Your keeper is an issue here though when the game is tight - he's good but no Schmeichel.
Good discussion. I'm on the fence which I wasn't expecting to
Invictus: Tigana with Matthaus is sub-optimal- you really want a DM in there especially with Zico around. Individualistic front four but I don't see a huge issue there, it's not as if they offer no off the ball movement. You've made a spirited defense of Vierchowod but Romario, along with R9, are peculiarly difficult to deal with due to their explosive acceleration, dribbling and finishing. There are very few defenders who would get the upper hand against him especially with Zico in behind and Tostao alongside.
Moby- Vogts can bomb forward but I'd prefer someone better going forward as a wingback. That said not a major problem. The main question here is can you keep that front four out. Souness and Rikjaard are an excellent two in front of the back 5. Your keeper is an issue here though when the game is tight - he's good but no Schmeichel.
Good discussion. I'm on the fence which I wasn't expecting to
Fair comments @Physiocrat, but I just want to address a couple points:
Blanc +Desailly Vierchowod
The central defensive core takes inspiration from one of the greatest tandems in football history:
A great number of teams throughout football history played with (and thrived with) the lack of a pure defensive holder or destroyer. It's not an absolute must by any means. Especially when Matthäus and Tigana had exceptional defensive workrate and are being asked to play more methodical roles - they both have experience with sacrificing a bit of their game to stop the opposition 10 (much like Beckenbauer vs Charlton in 1966). That tandem should definitely be enough to blunt Zico to a great degree.
Please refer the video above with France holding Brazil to 0 open play goals - while they boasted the talents of both Fenómeno and Romário. That defensive line consisted of Blanc and Desailly (who was comparable to Vierchowod in terms of robust no-nonsense defending). Infact, that was one of the keys while we were building the defense, and has been highlighted previously:
Blanc +
The central defensive core takes inspiration from one of the greatest tandems in football history:
Laurent Blanc reprises his own role as someone who gave the backline a calming effect. And Vierchowod is the ideal partner for him considering his skillset as an unrelenting tackler and athletically supreme man-marker.
Also, if you ask any defender with considerable stature who he struggled more with - a straightforward brute who had a particular way of attacking or snake-like agile dribbler in space who went inside and out and possessed a great reportoire of skillful moves, he will almost always point to the latter. I dunno why more is not being made of Best vs. Bratseth through our inside right channel (a 12th Round pick who was 6'4" and not suited to dealing with a low center of gravity dribblers). I can definitely envision Best torturing him like Messi vs Boateng (where a swift change of direction left the 6'4" Boateng on his arse).
Best will be a constant thorn in Bratseth's side given his agility and technique and determination:
Best will be a constant thorn in Bratseth's side given his agility and technique and determination:
Good job making people forget that Brehme exists.
Bratseth has enough pace and agility for a man of his size, his athleticism hasn't been questioned anywhere I have read about him. But he's not the primary obstacle for Best, that would be Brehme, as much as you'd like everyone to believe that he's not a defender.
Brehme was grand, but I think you're overselling some of the stuff. There's a numerical advantage on both flanks - and while Brehme was good at positioning himself, one man can only do so much. If he's overly reserved (which he will have to be to help out Bratseth), that will free up McGrain even more to make it Krol + Blanc + McGrain + Vierchowod + Lothar + Tigana vs. your attacking trio. Against this quality of opposition, you can't have it both ways in terms of Brehme being a decisive presence in attack (which he will have to be if he's to stop McGrain from joining the defenders in stopping your narrow attack) while also helping Bratseth out to a great degree against Best. Even peak Facchetti didn't do that vs. this caliber of opposition.
It's not about pace, although on that point, Bratseth was hardly comparable to Best either. To elaborate a bit on that, someone like Boateng is plenty fast, too. It's more about the balance and natural low center of gravity of smaller dribblers - that gives them a distinct advantage against man-mountain defenders from a physical standpoint in terms of evasiveness. Best will absolutely take the game to Rune (who was a 12th Round contingency pick and not final worthy). That's probably the biggest mismatch on the field.
Ah well, was always going to be a tough mountain to climb but thought that setup would have given me the edge in terms of containing the opposition and that forward punch to boot, but no shame in losing to that team. Congrats, @Invictus ! Well played!
Dunno mate, this isn't over yet. For what it's worth, I though you did a masterful job in terms of tactical adjustment and reconfiguration throughout the draft - particularly in the semis and this match as regards countering the opposition's strengths with the WM and now 5212. The initial squad was spot on, too. Not sure when the best drafter results will be announced, but I remember voting for you as the numero uno:
https://www.redcafe.net/conversations/best-drafter.160388/
Cheers mate. Yeah definitely enjoyed the draft for this one and unsurprisingly you did a great job as well. Your reinforcements were spot on.Dunno mate, this isn't over yet. For what it's worth, I though you did a masterful job in terms of tactical adjustment and reconfiguration throughout the draft - particularly in the semis and this match as regards countering the opposition's strengths with the WM and now 5212. The initial squad was spot on, too. Not sure when the best drafter results will be announced, but I remember voting for you as the numero uno:
https://www.redcafe.net/conversations/best-drafter.160388/
Funnily, it was Lerby who probably ended up costing me a shot at the title, I knew at the time I was picking him that he blocked a fair few but at one point he literally was a major block going forward and had to spend one reinforcement to replace him (although that landed me Rijkaard) even though in terms of quality he could have been carried forward.
Nevertheless nothing to complain about after reaching the final. Particularly enjoyed assembling that front 3 who just fit with each other beautifully and satisfy my Brazilian taste buds at the same time.
Great final and great drafting from both managers. Truly a match worthy of a no-mates final. Overall if this match was played in real life I believe coaching would make the difference.
For me, Invictus' side has an edge in sheer attacking quality. Moby though has the tactical advantage. I think this 5212 setup has a natural advantage over a 4231 composed with two prolific attacking wingers. While both Dzajic and Best are GOAT winger contenders, I think with Maradona in the center, the side would have benefited tactically from a Bruno Conti type in place of one of them who offers more all around play than sheer attacking shine.
With Tostao and Romario's interplay with Zico behind I think Krol will probably spend most of the match in the center supporting the CBs.
On the other hand I'll read more on Bratseth because I have never heard of him.
For me, Invictus' side has an edge in sheer attacking quality. Moby though has the tactical advantage. I think this 5212 setup has a natural advantage over a 4231 composed with two prolific attacking wingers. While both Dzajic and Best are GOAT winger contenders, I think with Maradona in the center, the side would have benefited tactically from a Bruno Conti type in place of one of them who offers more all around play than sheer attacking shine.
With Tostao and Romario's interplay with Zico behind I think Krol will probably spend most of the match in the center supporting the CBs.
On the other hand I'll read more on Bratseth because I have never heard of him.
Dunno mate, this isn't over yet. For what it's worth, I though you did a masterful job in terms of tactical adjustment and reconfiguration throughout the draft - particularly in the semis and this match as regards countering the opposition's strengths with the WM and now 5212. The initial squad was spot on, too. Not sure when the best drafter results will be announced, but I remember voting for you as the numero uno:
https://www.redcafe.net/conversations/best-drafter.160388/
After the final mate. I'll put it up tomorrow in the main thread.
On the match. I think Moby has done excellent job tactically to get the best out of his players and really closed the gap from what I expected to see from both teams.
However Invictus team has too much firepower, backed up by a solid defensive line and a GOAT keeper.
In a one off game I Moby's team can probably disrupt the Invictus rhythm, but I can see the latter having too much quality to handle in the long run, hence voting for Invictus.
However Invictus team has too much firepower, backed up by a solid defensive line and a GOAT keeper.
In a one off game I Moby's team can probably disrupt the Invictus rhythm, but I can see the latter having too much quality to handle in the long run, hence voting for Invictus.
Nice! Definitely looking forward to it. Think loads of managers did a really good job wrt. initial drafting, even the ones that got eliminated because of unfavorable fixtures in the early going. @oneniltothearsenal's apropos comment on Conti in particular reminds me of Tuppet's XI because he had a formidable Round 1 cast with exceptional, almost final-worthy flanks:
Fairly unlucky in that he had to face Gio's juggernaught right out of the gate.
But a back 5 protects them more. Krol sweeping is a bit different. Which Krol are you playing here?
Not really. Romario and Zico are both better than your duo.
On the flip side, despite the protection, Bratseth is out of his league. from what I read, he was a right sided player. Against Best, clearly a way for you to score.
Fair enough, mate. But even with a back 5, I think they might struggle with more diverse attacking options converging through the inside channels. Concerning Krol, we're using the early to mid '70s version. Late '70s and Napoli version was almost pure sweeper, and would be pointless for our team. That said, even though he played leftback in the early '70s, one quality Krol always possessed was the wherewithal to sweep inwards when he detected danger - in either defense, or midfield, hence the arrows in the formation graphic.
e.g.
or Netherlands vs. Brazil - didn't quite have the time to make a compilation for this match.
With Vogts not being the best offensive wingback in terms of tormenting Krol in the defensive third (which someone like Kaltz was more capable of doing), I think Ruud should have a wide berth as regards the sweeping inwards part of his remit. Ditto McGrain in case Best has Brehme tied up to protect Bratseth through the opposition's inside left channel.
Early 70s Krol was more of a libero player in the likes of Breitner. You can see him often in edge of the box or in midfield. He certainly was a great defender, but I don't see him sweeping inwards in a true sense of the term. If you are looking for him to be the last man or play a tucked in role, then he's the wrong man for the job. Esp in earlier version, he'll probably be ahead roaming of the defence rather than sweeping behind it. And in early 70s he was about 21 or 22 years old and will mature as a pure defender only later in his career.
I was researching him in earlier role and found this video to be useful to see him play early on.
The fact about him not facing a wing-back or a winger counts in his favor. He'll be a good influence from the deep. But imo he's the wrong sort for the role you have in mind. Tigana will be the one deeper in centre and Krol will be ahead of Vierchowod is how I see this playing. I doubt you'll see a tucked in compact defence against Romario that you seem to be alluding to.
Krol is not being asked to be the last man in defense or sweep behind, though. His remit is to be a proactive blocker of passing channels - which is one of the ways Zico will try to bring Romário into the game. My bad for either messing up the terminology, or not making it clearer in the formation graphic, but with 2 arrows on Sharemytactics, you can only do so much in terms of expanding on the details. I guess the type of situations he can help with is something like this (among other similar-ish configurations):
If you study Ajax's defense, Krol would frequently pop in to cover for Blankenburg as a part of their totaalvoetbal scheme in defense where they often moved around and changed positions, or station himself just ahead of the latter while the wide midfielder covered the outside channel. Similar with Haan when they played for the Netherlands with Krol going inwards (not behind the defense) while Van Hanegem and Rensenbrink spread out. While Krol isn't playing in a totaalvoetbal scheme here, the principles of his defensive awareness remain the same, and since he has a bit of breathing room in the absence of an extremely threatening winger or a productive wingback in the mold of Cafu, he will definitely have the time to device strategies for passing options that can be intercepted by him.
Krol is not being asked to be the last man in defense or sweep behind, though. His remit is to be a proactive blocker of passing channels - which is one of the ways Zico will try to bring Romário into the game. My bad for either messing up the terminology, or not making it clearer in the formation graphic, but with 2 arrows on Sharemytactics, you can only do so much in terms of expanding on the details. I guess the type of situations he can help with is something like this (among other similar-ish configurations):
If you study Ajax's defense, Krol would frequently pop in to cover for Blankenburg as a part of their totaalvoetbal scheme in defense where they often moved around and changed positions, or station himself just ahead of the latter while the wide midfielder covered the outside channel. Similar with Haan when they played for the Netherlands with Krol going inwards (not behind the defense) while Van Hanegem and Rensenbrink spread out. While Krol isn't playing in a totaalvoetbal scheme here, the principles of his defensive awareness remain the same, and since he has a bit of breathing room in the absence of an extremely threatening winger or a productive wingback in the mold of Cafu, he will definitely have the time to device strategies for passing options that can be intercepted by him.
Fair enough. That makes sense. Krol certainly can play that role perfectly.
Easy to predict both lineups at the start of the game and Moby is lucky to have the right setup available against Invictus' attack. Any other setup and you lose all day long with tennis scores.
Rijkaard and Souness were under used and not in the correct setup in the semi final IMO, but here they are probably two of the best you could hope for against the opposition, completely in their zone.
As most people agreed, that front 3 with Brazilians of different era with different playing styles is very good and definitely one of the drafting uniques I guess, here on the Caf.
The final, at least from my perspective was a foregone conclusion , but the setup is probably the best that could have been put up against and definitely makes it a respectable defeat.
Couldn't resist posting this anyways in a lighter note considering the front 3
Rijkaard and Souness were under used and not in the correct setup in the semi final IMO, but here they are probably two of the best you could hope for against the opposition, completely in their zone.
As most people agreed, that front 3 with Brazilians of different era with different playing styles is very good and definitely one of the drafting uniques I guess, here on the Caf.
The final, at least from my perspective was a foregone conclusion , but the setup is probably the best that could have been put up against and definitely makes it a respectable defeat.
Couldn't resist posting this anyways in a lighter note considering the front 3
Certainly agree that having Krol playing tighter and covering the centre-halves is very useful in dealing with the Zico/Romario threat in behind.
Is there an all-time defence that could keep out Invictus' attack?
I actually thought that Blanc / Pietro were good enough for a final from the first round - obviously both compliment each other perfectly but also in terms of actual ability they seem more than good enough to me. Blanc in particular was an outstanding defender and I rate him higher than McGrath who seems to be having a resurgence on the Caf. Whenever I watched Blanc at the time I considered him just as good as Desailly and his international record is surely one of the more esteemed of any defender in the modern era. Vierchowod I have seen far less off but his reputation in the game seems well established.
In terms of the latter point, I have read the thread and a few times there seems to be a general perception that it would be a Romario / Tostao 2 vs 2 with the centre backs when attacking. Given the lack of wingers that was never something I saw materialising at all, particularly given Krol's ability to tuck inside and the lack of any real width on the right. McGrain was also a defensive fullback by nature and in practise I see that back four being able to tuck in fairly tight which would be difficult to play through.
Reckon this one will handle that Front 4 just fine:
In midfield, I have a lot of faith in Davids when it comes to arresting the play of someone like Maradona with his overall industry levels, athleticism, and low center of gravity - in tandem with Lothar.
In defense, Kohler is self explanatory - Maldini vs. Best for obvious reasons - and Djalma vs Džajić (Moby was very unlucky in that Džajić had a good performance vs. Vogts - so we replace the German with someone who's THE greatest defensive rightback of all time, IMO).
Random keeper - in hindsight, shouldn't have put Dasayev there because EURO '88.
PS. Cheers for hosting the draft!
Good job from both managers
Team Moby is well-suited defensively and have Romario/Zico. Given the context (final of an all-time fantasy draft), the discussions are only about tiny details.
Also, this game reminds the game lost against Invictus/Theon (SF of the Doubles draft)
On the left Invictus/Theon **************** 17 - 12 **************** On the right my team
As you can see, we always have the same names at the end
That said, it's sad to lose against a GK nobody knows: the (Cambodian?) Khan
Also, this game reminds the game lost against Invictus/Theon (SF of the Doubles draft)
On the left Invictus/Theon **************** 17 - 12 **************** On the right my team
As you can see, we always have the same names at the end
That said, it's sad to lose against a GK nobody knows: the (Cambodian?) Khan
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You can understand my vote if you also think about my team in the previous draft :
Congratulations @Invictus. Well deserved - flawless reinforcement strategy with Dzajic and Best opening up the field on and off the park.
Thanks for the kind words everyone!
Also, big ups @Theon - who worked tirelessly behind the scenes after our SF loss in Billy No Mates and the final loss in Doubles Draft. He really believed we could win this from the onset despite a less than ideal position in the drafting order, and devised a lot of great strategies in terms of tactics, picks and reinforcements - inflating his tally to 4 wins and an incredible 11 final appearances in Redcafe drafts. Take a bow, sir!
Also, big ups @Theon - who worked tirelessly behind the scenes after our SF loss in Billy No Mates and the final loss in Doubles Draft. He really believed we could win this from the onset despite a less than ideal position in the drafting order, and devised a lot of great strategies in terms of tactics, picks and reinforcements - inflating his tally to 4 wins and an incredible 11 final appearances in Redcafe drafts. Take a bow, sir!