Synth Draft: Final - Moby vs Invictus

With players at their career peak, who would win?


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Physiocrat

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Moby

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Invictus

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Moby

For the final, we have transformed into a standard 5-2-1-2 formation based on an unbreakable defensive line, all action powerhouses in midfield and a trio of absolute geniuses in attack.

Watertight defensive line led by the defensive general Gaetano Scirea bringing in tremendous presence at the back and organising the defense with his leadership skills and providing that touch of genius in defense, a man absolutely crucial for that defense to be at their best, not to mention his unrivalled ability to distribute the ball from defense or carry it forward. Flanking him are two absolutely complete defenders comprising the all action defensive juggernaut Paul McGrath and one of the best Bundesliga defenders and another all round defensive rock in Rune Bratseth - a true force in defense and also capable of doing this.

The all important wingbacks are two German world champions - the unmatched two way game of Andreas Brehmeand the outstanding man marker and defensive colossus in Berti Vogts. Not much needs to be said about Brehme as a wing-back after his dominating performances in this role to win Germany the 1990 WC, as for Vogts, there's little doubt on his defense and going forward he was a crucial cog in the Gladback team of the 70s.

Two absolute powerhouses ahead of them marshalling the midfield area in Graeme Souness and Frank Rijkaard - the two are absolutely tactically astute, tremendously hard working midfield generals with both having the class and ability on the ball to flip the action in seconds.

Last but not the least - The Brazilian Trio!
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The mouthwatering combination of the creative genius of Zico, the technical mastery of Tostao and the explosive goalscorer Romario. All three pack an elite level of technique, skill, flair, dribbling and goalscoring - all three have bucket loads of goals in their careers both at the club and national levels and it will be a mammoth task to outscore that unit!

Key Points:
  • A combative defensive line that will get stuck in and provide a massive guard for the goalie.
  • A powerful midfield unit making it a massive back 7 to break up. Rijkaard's ability to drop into defense particularly useful here during the instances Scirea/Bratseth/McGrath charge forward with the ball.
  • Incredible ability on the ball at the back with all three of Scirea, Bratseth and McGrath capable of distributing it forward and carrying it when needed.
  • An all time great orchestrator at the heart of the game.
  • Two great forwards leading the attack complimenting each other perfectly with Tostao playing off Romario.
  • The sheer amount of goal tally in that attack and the Brazilian chemistry that would elevate the entire performance even further.
In this game
  • The key USP of this team being it's offense will be overwhelming for the CB pair who no doubt are good defenders but are facing an incredible attacking force with none other than Zico feeding them. There is a disparity in the quality of defenses in the two teams.
  • With a front two, the defense will require support from the midfield to handle them, hence reducing their ability to dominate the game on the frontfoot and curbing their attacking game.
  • The ability of Zico to constantly shuttle between an orchestrator to a goalscorer with plenty of playmaking ability in midfield and defense will constantly create confusions in the defensive shape and create spaces.
  • Absolutely elite goalscoring ability that would be more clinical of the two teams and put away all the chances that come their way.
  • Quality delivery from out wide from the likes of Brehme adding to the list of attacking weapons in the team.
  • A formidable defensive midfield pairing with possibly the greatest defensive midfielder of all time - as good as you can get to tackle someone like Maradona.
  • To add to that, a defense led by none other than Gaetano Scirea (who has faced and stopped Maradona before) with 4 quality defenders around him is as good as it gets to contain that attack.

Invictus


Formation: Balanced 4231

Player Profiles

We'll start by highlighting the wing wizards who've been cornerstones of the team since the Quarterfinals. George Best is considered by most to be the greatest winger of all time with Garrincha:
Best combined elegant balance, strength on the ball, deadly finishing and the ability to slalom through defences as if the football gods exclusively afforded him superhuman skill. Seldom is the world of football graced by the embodiment of ability and toughness and in Best the world saw football’s Greek demigod, Achilles. He challenged the butchers of the game, mercilessly leaving them in his wake time and time again while riding the avalanche of challenges aimed at his kneecaps.
And on the other side is the second best winger in the pool, Dragan Džajić - who's probably a Top 5 all-time winger in his own right:
For Serbia’s Dragan Džajić, his country’s greatest ever footballing talent, the most memorable commendation came from none other than Pelé. “Džajić is the Balkan miracle – a real wizard,” said the legendary forward, after the two did battle in 1968, “I’m just sorry he’s not Brazilian because I’ve never seen such a natural footballer.”

Backing them is the balanced duo of Danny McGrain (arguably the greatest rightback in British football and a consummate defenders' defender). And someone who's regarded as one of the absolute best defenders of all time - the Total Defender given his legendary performances both out wide and as a sweeper, and arguably the best fullback in the pool, Ruud Krol.

With this quartet, we believe we have the perfect cast to launch an onslaught through the wider areas in an effort to spread out the attack and create a blitzkrieg effect from all angles.

Spearheading the attack is probably the best Number 9 you could imagine, Marco Van Basten. The Flying Dutchman dominated defenders in the greatest and arguably toughest defensive environment of all time - late '80s and early '90s Serie A - evidenced by his record of 3 Ballon D'Or titles while playing in the league. He offers the perfect skillset for our team given the complete nature of his game - the mobility to get on the end of through balls, hold up play to act as a pivot for the central attacking midfielder, being an imposing target for Džajić and Best's deliveries, etc.

Orchestrating the game through the middle is the latest addition to the team, Diego Maradona. We could wax lyrical all the livelong day, but as this FourFourTwo article points out - If you’ve seen Diego Maradona with a ball at his feet, you’ll understand - so we'll just let this video speak for itself:



Patrolling the center of the park is the monstrous box-to-box tandem of Der Terminator Lothar Matthäus, and French legend Jean Tigana - two complete midfielders capable of magic on the ball whilst also providing drive, energy and defensive fortitude in a crucial area of the pitch. In our opinion Matthäus is the best central midfielder of all time, and Tigana one of the greatest defensive box-to-box players along with the likes of Keane. They should be able to provide a tireless and concrete platform for the likes of El Pibe de Oro and El Beatle to work their magic.

Behind them - acting as the anchors of defense is the complementary pairing of Le Président Laurent Blanc: ballplayer extraordinaire, an astute defender and a natural master-of-puppets from deep, and lo Zar (the Tsar) Pietro Vierchowod: one of the most accomplished and ruthless stoppers of all time, and the epitome of unflinching Italian defensive spirit as regards blocking Romário:

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Why we should win:

1. Superiority in wider areas: this has been a recurring theme throughout the tournament. We were quite fortunate to pick Džajić and McGrain and Lato in the drafting phase. And then Best and Krol served as timely reinforcements. In our opinion, we consistently had the best wings in the draft ever since @Tuppet got eliminated in Round 1 - and that remains the case in this match - which should give us a distinct advantage in case the central-ish areas become too congested for our liking.

2. More threatening attack: the addition of Maradona serves as a timely boost for the final. Maradona of the Carpathians was a brilliant player and served us well as the creator in chief in previous rounds, but the original namesake adds extra dimensions to the attack behind Van Basten as the best player in this draft and arguably the most creative player of all time - while also taking the attention away from Džajić and Best because you can only mind so many threatening players as regards individual marking before the opposition's defensive system collapses on itself.

3. Since both teams are quite strong through the spine, it could come down to favorable individual matchups in certain areas. One such matchup is Van Basten vs. Scirea - the former was a top, top defender - but not the greatest in the air when he was isolated against taller players boasting a great leap. That's one department where Marco could and should cause him trouble with precise crosses from Best, Krol and Džajić - and lobs from Maradona.

Another thing to be considered is the players' records against each other - how big of a factor the will end up being is subjective and up for debate, but it does give us a historical reference point in terms of the narrative. e.g. Rijkaard was an incredible player who shut down some of the best players in football history, but Maradona ran him ragged on several occasions - including this 4-1 demolition job in 1988/89.

4. Strength in defense: our team features a rock-solid and highly complementary central defensive partnership with Vierchowod and Blanc. And they're flanked by the rugged McGrain and the masterful Krol. You could point out that the opposition has an expert orchestrator like Scirea to conduct things and that's a fair observation, but Krol captained the Netherlands to the 1978 World Cup final and was exalted for his tactical intelligence and leadership - qualities that made him an idol for the likes of Franco Baresi:
He anticipated and read the play so well he finished sentences for Brazil's strikers. Then he imposed himself. He stepped out from the back with his shirt out -- a tribute to Ruud Krol -- played it out and followed the play.
Vierchowod captained Sampdoria in peak Serie A, Blanc the French national team while being an adept reader of the game, and McGrain led Celtic for close to a decade. With that cast, we should be able to limit the opposition attack. And if the defensive line is breached, the opposition will face the gargantuan figure of Peter Schmeichel - who's among the greatest keepers ever and definitely the best in this pool. All in all this group won 2 World Cups - while reaching 3 additional finals, 2 European Championships, 4 European Cups - while reaching 3 additional finals, and 26 League titles - so it boasts an eclectic mix of defensive nous, tactical intelligence, and experience in terms of individual and collective quality.
 
I don't mind Blanc and Pietro, both good CBs but a notch below what is required in a final and quite a tier or two below what is needed to play against a deadly strike force like Tostao and Romario.

Blanc's lack of pace could be an issue countering Romario's tremendous acceleration and close control. Tostao's dribble on the turn was a deadly weapon and again would be a tough one to counter here.

All three of Zico, Tostao and Romario are world class dribblers and skillful players, and against that CB duo they will shine bright.
 
A few words on the latest addition to the team...

DIEGO MARADONA

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Argentine Primera División top scorers (5): 1978 Metropolitano, 1979 Metropolitano, 1979 Nacional, 1980 Metropolitano, 1980 Nacional
FIFA World Youth Championship Golden Ball: 1979
FIFA World Youth Championship Silver Shoe: 1979
World Player of the Year (Guerin Sportivo): 1979
Argentine Football Writers' Footballer of the Year (4): 1979, 1980, 1981, 1986
South American Footballer of the Year (2): (official award) 1979, 1980
Olimpia de Oro (2): 1979, 1986
Guerin d'Oro (Serie A Footballer of the Year): 1985
Onze de Bronze (2): 1985, 1988
UNICEF European Footballer of the Season: 1989–90
FIFA World Cup Golden Ball: 1986
FIFA World Cup Silver Shoe: 1986
FIFA World Cup Most Assists: 1986
FIFA World Cup All-Star Team (2): 1986, 1990
Onze d'Or (2): 1986, 1987
Argentine Sports Writers' Sportsman of the Year: 1986
L'Équipe Champion of Champions: 1986
United Press International Athlete of the Year Award: 1986
World Soccer Awards Player of the Year: 1986
South American Player of the Year (4): (unofficial award) 1986, 1989, 1990, 1992
Capocannoniere (Serie A top scorer): 1987–88
Coppa Italia top scorer: 1987–88
FIFA World Cup Bronze Ball: 1990
South American Team of the Year: 1995
Ballon d'Or for services to football (France Football): 1996
World Team of the 20th Century: 1998
World Soccer The Greatest Players of the 20th century: (#2) 1999
Argentine Sports Writers' Sportsman of the Century: 1999
Marca Leyenda: 1999
Number 10 retired by Napoli football team as a recognition to his contribution to the club: 2000
FIFA Player of the Century: 2000
FIFA Goal of the Century (for his second goal against England in 1986 FIFA World Cup quarter-final): 2002
FIFA World Cup Dream Team: 2002
Golden Foot: 2003, as football legend
FIFA 100 Greatest Living Footballers: 2004
Argentine Senate "Domingo Faustino Sarmiento" recognition for lifetime achievement: 2005
Globe Soccer Awards Player Career Award: 2012
World Soccer Greatest XI of all time: 2013
Napoli all-time Top Scorer
Italian Football Hall of Fame: 2014
L'Équipe's top 50 South-American footballers in history: #2
FIFA World Cup All-Time Team

Diego Armando Maradona is one of the greatest players in the history of the game - many even regard him as the greatest. He was a brave and natural born leader on the field, a streetwise character who could pull a rabbit out of the hat at any stage of the game. Short, stocky and left-footed with awe-inspiring ball control, dribbling, passing and playmaking skills, made him almost impossible to contain at his best. And the world got to see him at his peak in the 1986 World Cup. His tournament contribution to Argentina's triumph has been generally accepted as the best in history by a single player of any World Cup.

He was born in Buenos Aires and grew up in the shantytown of Villa Fiorito in a large family as one of eight kids. Playing for Los Cebollitas (The little onions), Maradona quickly made a name for himself as a wonderboy with unbelievable ball skills. He received national recognition as a 10 year-old entertaining crowds with ball juggling at half-time breaks. A television crew once interviewed him during those years and he said: "I have two dreams: To play in the World Cup and to win it."

Maradona was still only fifteen when he made his debut in top flight club football for struggling Argentinos Juniors, and only sixteen when he won his first cap for Argentina against Hungary in 1977. The career sky rocketed at Argentinos and Maradona was top scorer five times in the Argentinian league, twice in the Nacional tournament and three times in the Metropolitano. He was voted South American Player of the Year in 1979 and 1980.

His first major disappointment was to be dropped from Argentina's World Cup squad for the tournament on home soil in 1978. Coach Cesar Luis Menotti felt Maradona was too young at 17 to cope with the pressure of this occasion. Reputedly, he was the last player to be cut from the 22 man roster which originally had a bunch of other names. The following year Maradona lead Argentina to the World Youth Cup title in Japan instead.

A £1 million transfer to Boca Juniors in 1981 helped Maradona win his only Argentinian league championship, and soon Europe beckoned. FC Barcelona broke the world transfer record fee when they paid £5 million for his services from the start of 1982/83.

By then, Maradona's reputation had been marred by his actions in the 1982 World Cup in Spain, which saw him get sent off in frustration for a vicious foul on Brazil's Batista. Against Italy in the previous match, Claudio Gentile was allowed to foul Maradona time and again and get away with it. Argentina bowed out in the second phase.

His spell in Barcelona lasted only two seasons and both were hampered by illness, injuries and other scandals. First he was sidelined for months with hepatitis, and then more months out the next season after a broken ankle caused by Andoni Goikoetxea, "The Butcher from Bilbao". There was also the ongoing disputes with Barcelona's president Nuñez. However, inbetween the problems Maradona also had some memorable performances for Barca, including one away to Real Madrid where he received a standing ovation from the Bernabeu crowd, but his period in Spain ended on a sour note with the mass brawl in the Copa del Rey-final against Athletic Bilbao where Maradona played his part in what reminded more of kung-fu fighting than football.

SSC Napoli, who barely avoided relegation each of the two previous seasons, decided to splash out a world record £6.9 million for Maradona in the summer of 1984. On the day of his presentation, there were 75 000 people packed at San Paolo. In the years that followed, Maradona was the cornerstone as the club transformed itself from a bottom team to a powerhouse in the world's strongest league at the time - Serie A.

Right in the middle of those build-up years at Napoli, there was the 1986 World Cup in Mexico. The crowning moment of Maradona's career. Against England in the quarterfinal he showed both sides of himself within few minutes; the clever cheater and the genius talent. A cheeky handball goal which he later said was the Hand of God, and then his amazing dribbling run of 60 yards regarded as the greatest World Cup goal in history. Two more goals by Maradona against Belgium in the semifinal was followed up by a 3-2 win against West Germany in the final, including an assist to Jorge Burruchaga's deciding goal. Maradona was voted Golden Ball winner as best player and even World Athlete of the Year 1986 by United Press International.

Success followed at club level in Italy as Napoli captured their historic first league championship in 1986/87 knocking Michel Platini's Juventus off the throne and adding Coppa Italia at the same time. Celebrations in the chaotic southern city reached new heights. In 1989, the UEFA Cup was won and another league championship in 1990 before the World Cup in Italy.

Maradona carried an injury going into Italia '90 and was not on the same level as four years earlier, neither was his team. His most memorable moment in the World Cup was the assist to Claudio Caniggia's match-winning goal against Brazil in the second round. Argentina beat hosts Italy on penalties in a very hyped semifinal match played in Naples, but couldn't prevent West Germany winning the World Cup. Maradona was still voted the tournament's third best player.
 
One the other hand there couldn't be better cover to counter his strengths:

Vogts and McGrath against Dzajic.
Brehme and Bratseth against Best.
Rijkaard and Souness against Maradona.

I can understand his team looks tasty on paper but it is not balanced in terms of quality and moreover my key players are facing far less resistance than his.
 
I don't mind Blanc and Pietro, both good CBs but a notch below what is required in a final and quite a tier or two below what is needed to play against a deadly strike force like Tostao and Romario.
In all fairness, let's please also bear in mind that Bratseth and McGrath aren't the most illustrious names to grace a final. And Tomaszewski was a couple notches below Schmeichel. I think overall, the quality is quite even, even with Scirea. And Vogts is a bit of a miscast as wingback. Wrt. Bratseth in particular, I don't know how he's going to cope with Best's searing pace and trickery:



And Vierchowod is arguably one of the best counters for Romário given his overall skillset:
The 1980s and 1990s were seminal decades in the transformation of Italian football. The slow death of Catenaccio and the emergence of a more positive, attacking approach to the game in the 1990s meant that the noble art of defence was to change beyond all recognition. Deprived of the protection of the sweeper, those who managed to span the two decades with their reputation further enhanced are few and far between. Of course we know that Franco Baresi was one such player, and Pietro Vierchowod was another.

His all-round game for a central defender was complete, and ensured that he was an upgrade for every team that he played for in his career. For a man who stood at only 5ft 11in, he had an incredible spring in the air, and an ability to out-jump taller men that made biological statistics somewhat irrelevant. He was teak tough, ultra-competitive, had great positional sense and the sort of 'afterburn' acceleration that most centre forwards would kill for. He was also, as mentioned earlier, a leader of men, one who always took responsibility on the field and never shirked from anything. It was this complete set of tools that enabled him to play in Serie A for 20 years.
 
@Moby That's a great Bratseth vid but do you have anymore on him? I don't know too much about him
 
et's please also bear in mind that Bratseth and McGrath aren't the most illustrious names to grace a final
McGrath isn't. At his peak he's a commanding CB with little weakness which is important in combating all kinds of threats. He's an ideal presence to deal with van Basten while Vogts defense will be a tough nut to break down.

The difference is that it's a 5 man defense and supported by two world class (one of them being the greatest ever) DMs.

And Vogts is a bit of a miscast as wingback.
Not really - I literally mentioned that he will be playing like he did at Gladbach - the most entertaining team in the Bundesliga in the 70s and Vogts had a great part to play in their offense. This discussion was done to death in an earlier draft where it was concluded that Vogts' image as one who can only defend is largely based on his NT role and not his club performances.

Wrt. Bratseth in particular, I don't know how he's going to cope with Best's searing pace and trickery:
Pace isn't something that one can question him in, he was incredibly pacy. And Best has Brehme to contend with before he reached Bratseth.
 


Not only have I always been against bringing one off games as universal evidence for a given match up, but that Milan result is down to the suicidal tactics played by Sacchi.

On the other hand, I am playing the exact tactics that Trap played with Scirea in his absolute element - who actually kept Maradona quiet even though Napoli ended up winning through a set piece.
 
@Moby That's a great Bratseth vid but do you have anymore on him? I don't know too much about him
In a nutshell - one of the greatest defenders in Bundesliga history - a complete presence who was equally at home as a sweeper or a stopper, has an incredible jump (valuable asset to counter van Basten), incredibly pacy and rock solid tackling and marking and as shown by that video a rolls royce on the ball and could easily withstand any pressure while in possession.
 
In a nutshell - one of the greatest defenders in Bundesliga history - a complete presence who was equally at home as a sweeper or a stopper, has an incredible jump (valuable asset to counter van Basten), incredibly pacy and rock solid tackling and marking and as shown by that video a rolls royce on the ball and could easily withstand any pressure while in possession.

Thanks :)
 
McGrath isn't. At his peak he's a commanding CB with little weakness which is important in combating all kinds of threats. He's an ideal presence to deal with van Basten while Vogts defense will be a tough nut to break down.
I can't figure out how you can claim that McGrath isn't miscast in terms of profile but Vierchowod (one of the greatest pure defenders of the modern era) and Blanc (thrice EURO Team of the Tournament and World Cup + EURO winner) are. Reads like an willful twisting of the narrative to detract from the shortcomings of your own defensive cast.
The difference is that it's a 5 man defense and supported by two world class (one of them being the greatest ever) DMs.
Yes, a DM that Maradona destroyed on several occasions.
Not really - I literally mentioned that he will be playing like he did at Gladbach - the most entertaining team in the Bundesliga in the 70s and Vogts had a great part to play in their offense. This discussion was done to death in an earlier draft where it was concluded that Vogts' image as one who can only defend is largely based on his NT role and not his club performances.
Let's make one thing amply clear - Vogts might have been effective in an offensive sense for Borussia Mönchengladbach, but that was not his peak role, and he's not going to produce anything on the right flank with Džajić (who gave him fits) and Krol in the opposition. You're essentially sacrificing your entire flank to one of the greatest wingers of all time and one of the greatest all-round leftbacks of all time in an effort to keep Houseman out of the team. That's all there is to it.
Pace isn't something that one can question him in, he was incredibly pacy. And Best has Brehme to contend with before he reached Bratseth.
Brehme was renowned for his contributions in attack and positioning - not marking players of the quality of Best. And Bratseth will find it extremely difficult to deal with the diminutive Best given his high center of gravity.
Height 1.93 m (6 ft 4 in)
Playing position Sweeper
 
And Vierchowod is arguably one of the best counters for Romário given his overall skillset:
The issue on hand is that it isn't just Romario - he is a part of a front two partnered by another incredible forward who was a key component of the greatest national team ever seen and they have one of the greatest #10s behind them.

Realistically, playing against a front two requires help from midfield who here are just as occupied handling Zico. It will massively restrict any forward movement they provide without exposing that CB duo in a 2v2 (literally suicidal) with Zico pressing the trigger.

If it was Romario as a lone striker, the threat could have been mitigated to an extent even though that would be a stretch but in a front 2 with that company I don't have any trust in that CB pair to keep them out.
 
Not only have I always been against bringing one off games as universal evidence for a given match up, but that Milan result is down to the suicidal tactics played by Sacchi.

On the other hand, I am playing the exact tactics that Trap played with Scirea in his absolute element - who actually kept Maradona quiet even though Napoli ended up winning through a set piece.
Isn't that the same clip you always bring up to show Scirea>Baresi? :lol:
 
The issue on hand is that it isn't just Romario - he is a part of a front two partnered by another incredible forward who was a key component of the greatest national team ever seen and they have one of the greatest #10s behind them.

Realistically, playing against a front two requires help from midfield who here are just as occupied handling Zico. It will massively restrict any forward movement they provide without exposing that CB duo in a 2v2 (literally suicidal) with Zico pressing the trigger.

If it was Romario as a lone striker, the threat could have been mitigated to an extent even though that would be a stretch but in a front 2 with that company I don't have any trust in that CB pair to keep them out.
As has been mentioned already, Vierchowod and Blanc and both suited to the task - Vierchowod for Romário given his brilliance as a marking stopper (comparable to the likes of Gentile in that sense):

Pietro.png


And Blanc can deal with Tostão given his masterful reading of the game.

Not to mention, given the lack of width in your team down the right, Krol can drift inwards and act as another impediment:



We're more than covered in defense from an objective standpoint. These three on top of Matthäus and Tigana are more than enough to contain the trio of Romário and Zico and Tostão (weakest attacker on the pitch), especially when they're backed by this fine gentleman:

 
I can't figure out how you can claim that McGrath isn't miscast in terms of profile but Vierchowod (one of the greatest pure defenders of the modern era) and Blanc (thrice EURO Team of the Tournament and World Cup + EURO winner) are. Reads like an willful twisting of the narrative to detract from the shortcomings of your own defensive cast.
To each his own, really. I rate McGrath's presence highly simply on the account of his defense being far more all round than a pure stopper like Pietro. Against a player like Maradona reading his passing is more valuable than having a man marker. Man marking isn't my strategy either as my defense is based on zonal marking and McGrath simply is a far better fit there for the threat in hand.

Yes, a DM that Maradona destroyed on several occasions.
How many occasions?

It's like saying that since Buchwald neutralised Maradona in a WC final he will always have that success regardless of what they both did in the rest of their career. Gets a bit fantastical if you start doubting Rijkaard's standing as a defensive midfielder. And bear in mind, he is partnered with another no nonsense and tactically masterful DM in Souness and both will have a tight grip on Diego in this game.

Vogts might have been effective in an offensive sense for Borussia Mönchengladbach, but that was not his peak role,
How does that make any since? The role that he played for years contributing to the highly successful Gladbach outfit isn't his peak role? What is then, a few games played at the World Cup that were down more to necessity than Vogts' skillset? He's a defense first player, but has no issue contributing in attack when we have the ball - an ideal combination against flank.

Brehme was renowned for his contributions in attack and positioning - not marking players of the quality of Best.
Again, there's one thing in arguing about a fantasy matchup and then there's questioning the defensive nous of one of the greatest left backs of all time. Your sorry attempt of portraying him as some sort of Roberto Carlos doesn't fly here. Brehme's athleticism and determination makes him an ideal counter for a player like Best.
 
As has been mentioned already, Vierchowod and Blanc and both suited to the task
How? It isn't just Romario they have to deal with, but Romario and Tostao - which will overwhelm most CB duos let alone one comprising of a CB that is known to lack pace and is a question mark against highly skillful players such as Tostao and Romario.

There's no way they can deal with that double threat, without even considering how Zico will be bombing forward adding further to the goal threat. As in last game, my goal threat is simply too hot to handle, has two of the most clinical goalscorers the game has ever seen and will bury any chance that comes their way. Blanc and Vierchowod are out of their depth here - both in terms of quality and the numbers in attack they are facing.
 
To each his own, really. I rate McGrath's presence highly simply on the account of his defense being far more all round than a pure stopper like Pietro.
What...pure stopper like Pietro? Vierchowod was a brilliant all-round centerback - which is why he's regarded so highly - he was one of the highlights of the transition of Italian football from overly specialized defenders to flat-ish back fours given the complete nature of his game - ON TOP of his marking ability.

Please ref. this instead of making misleading claims:
The 1980s and 1990s were seminal decades in the transformation of Italian football. The slow death of Catenaccio and the emergence of a more positive, attacking approach to the game in the 1990s meant that the noble art of defence was to change beyond all recognition. Deprived of the protection of the sweeper, those who managed to span the two decades with their reputation further enhanced are few and far between. Of course we know that Franco Baresi was one such player, and Pietro Vierchowod was another. His all-round game for a central defender was complete, and ensured that he was an upgrade for every team that he played for in his career.
Pure stopper my bottom.
How many occasions?

It's like saying that since Buchwald neutralised Maradona in a WC final he will always have that success regardless of what they both did in the rest of their career. Gets a bit fantastical if you start doubting Rijkaard's standing as a defensive midfielder. And bear in mind, he is partnered with another no nonsense and tactically masterful DM in Souness and both will have a tight grip on Diego in this game.
There's no doubting Rijkaard's standing, just that Maradona put him to the sword a handful of times with Napoli - both home and away. Which should be a good point of reference in terms of head-to-head matchups.
How does that make any since? The role that he played for years contributing to the highly successful Gladbach outfit isn't his peak role? What is then, a few games played at the World Cup that were down more to necessity than Vogts' skillset? He's a defense first player, but has no issue contributing in attack when we have the ball - an ideal combination against flank.
Errr...are you suggesting that his peak role was as a wingback in a 5 man defense? You know the kind that Cafu and Kaltz are renowned for? Especially against THAT tandem for the opposition?
Again, there's one thing in arguing about a fantasy matchup and then there's questioning the defensive nous of one of the greatest left backs of all time. Your sorry attempt of portraying him as some sort of Roberto Carlos doesn't fly here. Brehme's athleticism and determination makes him an ideal counter for a player like Best.
Nope, I don't buy that. If I were to rank Brehme qualities, the ability to mark someone of the caliber of Best would be pretty low down the order.
 
There's no doubting Rijkaard's standing, just that Maradona put him to the sword a handful of times with Napoli - both home and away. Which should be a good point of reference in terms of head-to-head matchups.
It isn't though, given the difference between the tactics he was a part of there and here which is day and night. Sacchi went ahead with his typical high line and the 35 yard vertical limit which is nowhere near a deep lying zonal defense where Rijkaard has 5 defenders behind him, no space to be worried about and having a top tier partner to contain Diego, especially with a defensive organiser like Scirea constantly reading Diego's game (an evidence you conveniently ignore). It doesn't really get better than that to contain a player like Diego - of course if you are going to go on the path of 'its diego game over' then there's no point in discussing this game.

Errr...are you suggesting that his peak role was as a wingback in a 5 man defense? You know the kind that Cafu and Kaltz are renowned for? Especially against THAT tandem for the opposition?
I didn't suggest that whatsoever, what I'm suggesting is he's not simply a pure defender as he's often portrayed and has plenty of skill to be a weapon in attack. He constantly overlapped and provided width in attack, and would hardly be out of place here. Like I already said, he will be a defense first, but underrating his attacking ability will only be a tactical blunder.
 
You mean two box-to-box midfielders who at their best were partnered with defensive midfielders?

What is Matthaus' role here? Will he be attacking and leave space in behind for my attacking trio to exploit?
Nope, the Matthäus that helped ensnare the greatest in both '86 and '90 - that Matthäus. Which is something Rijkaard didn't quite accomplish at the highest level. And Tigana who was a tireless defensive box-to-box terrier. A combination of these two should be more than enough to mind Zico when conversely, Maradona faces someone he boasts an excellent record against, and Souness - who wasn't the most nimble player and will be twisted and turned by Maradona.
 
It isn't though, given the difference between the tactics he was a part of there and here which is day and night. Sacchi went ahead with his typical high line and the 35 yard vertical limit which is nowhere near a deep lying zonal defense where Rijkaard has 5 defenders behind him, no space to be worried about and having a top tier partner to contain Diego, especially with a defensive organiser like Scirea constantly reading Diego's game (an evidence you conveniently ignore). It doesn't really get better than that to contain a player like Diego - of course if you are going to go on the path of 'its diego game over' then there's no point in discussing this game.
Scirea led defenses also had trouble against Maradona.

e.g.





Unlike our defense - where the tasks are pretty simple - yours is incoherent in terms of responsibilities.

Vogts is supposed to provide penetration à la Kaltz (something he just couldn't go) while facing his known nemesis backed by Ruud Krol.
Brehme is supposed to stop Best and provide width and bypass McGrain and help Bratseth.
McGrath is supposed to mark Van Basten and also stop Džajić.

I just don't buy the lot of it against a tremendous opposition flank.
I didn't suggest that whatsoever, what I'm suggesting is he's not simply a pure defender as he's often portrayed and has plenty of skill to be a weapon in attack. He constantly overlapped and provided width in attack, and would hardly be out of place here. Like I already said, he will be a defense first, but underrating his attacking ability will only be a tactical blunder.
To be fair, no one is a pure defender - not even Burgnich was a pure defender. You might argue Vogts' case as a wingback at the start of the draft where things aren't completely fleshed, but to play that position in a final against Džajić and Krol is asking too much of him when he wasn't acclaimed for what's being asked of him here. In fact, that will serve to detract from his defensive remit - which was his real strength, even at Mönchengladbach.
 
Nope, the Matthäus that helped ensnare the greatest in both '86 and '90 - that Matthäus. Which is something Rijkaard didn't quite accomplish at the highest level. And Tigana who was a tireless defensive box-to-box terrier. A combination of these two should be more than enough to mind Zico when conversely, Maradona faces someone he boasts an excellent record against, and Souness - who was the most nimble and will be twisted and turned by Maradona.
Right, so having Matthaus' attacking forays out of the way makes the job for my midfield all the more easier. Between Rijkaard and Souness and that defensive line behind them cutting off any space for him to pass into, the job is almost done here.

At the time Matthaus played against Maradona he had better defenders than you have at his disposal while Maradona didn't have anyone near the calibre of Romario or Tostao at his disposal.

Do keep bringing up 'evidence' which is irrelevant for this match up given the vast differences in terms of tactics and players involved. Can't help when one is hellbent on misleading the voters with incidents that had completely different scenarios that don't apply in this game whatsoever while completely ignoring the skillsets.

On the other hand, there is nothing to convince that your CB pair will be up to the task of handling that front three.
 
In fact, that will serve to detract from his defensive remit - which was his real strength, even at Mönchengladbach.
Despite me giving him the instruction of being a defense first player? I'm managing him, not you, so my instructions for him probably weigh a bit more than what you are trying to portray him as.

There's no doubt that he will be a massive obstacle for Dzajic, especially with McGrath in support.
 
Right, so having Matthaus' attacking forays out of the way makes the job for my midfield all the more easier. Between Rijkaard and Souness and that defensive line behind them cutting off any space for him to pass into, the job is almost done here.
What attacking forays out of the way? Just because he's limiting Zico doesn't mean he can't pull stuff like this:

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Your assertions read as if he's Gennaro Gattuso - and helping mind Zico with Tigana will preclude him from doing anything on the ball. :lol:
 
To be honest I thought this was going to be a walkover after the semi-finals and reinforcements before the final. But Moby's switch to 5-2-1-2 has made a real game of this. It's refreshing to see a manager put forward a team and tactic that is quite clearly tailored for the opposition, rather than just send out his best XI in isolation of the match itself. That said it would take a hell of a defensive effort to quell that front four - it might be as good as it gets as a four-man attack with wingers in an all-time context, never mind an era draft with restrictions. Perhaps a slight concern that there is too much solo dribbling and not enough interplay: the three behind Van Basten all loved to dominate the ball.

Credit to Moby for the ballsy Bratseth pick: he was understated top-class IMO and his physicality dovetails with Scirea's more cerebral game. I'm assuming Dzajic/Best supplying crosses is one of Invictus' main routes to goal and Bratseth would be quite effective in combating Van Basten's aerial game. His Norway defence was one of the strongest in the world in the early 1990s and I remember Holland and Van Basten really struggling to break it down when Norway topped that qualifying group with them and England.

And Vogts is a bit of a miscast as wingback.
Don't really agree with this. I think he gets typecast in these drafts as a Bergomi/Burgnich type defender and he doesn't have the sex appeal of a Brazilian wing-back. Vogts was the top-rated Bundesliga player (by Kicker ratings) through the 1970s and that was down to both his defensive acumen and his energy going forward. He had to play more restricted roles for the national team to get the best out of Beckenbauer, but he was a big part of the lasting appeal of that great Monchengladbach side. And most of the old-school 3-5-2 or 5-3-2 set-ups often had fairly conventional full-backs in the wide roles, so tactically I think it's fine, especially against such a threatening attack.
 
Yes, really. Our individual tasks are keenly defined.

Vierchowod marks Romário
Blanc reads Tostão's movement (who wasn't the fastest)
Matthäus and Tigana mind Zico
Krol drifts inwards while Džajić has Vogts isolated
McGrain blocks Brehme

It's pretty straightforward with an emphasis on specificity in terms of remit.
 
What attacking forays out of the way? Just because he's limiting Zico doesn't mean he can't pull stuff like this:
I hope you don't make me repeat this again, else I'll just start Ctrl C, Ctrl Ving.

It's not just Zico (as if 'just' Zico is a piece of cake) but it's Zico behind a FRONT TWO of Tostao and Romario! Your defense needs the help of your midfield just to counter those two without even taking Zico into account. With Zico added to that threat, there's no chance your defense can contain them, and would require your DMs to put in purely defensive shifts even to have a chance. Which in turn gives me a massive advantage in midfield and disjoints your team.

But sure, there are two Matthaus on the pitch, who will man mark Zico (by your own admission) and will also be scoring screamers.
 
I hope you don't make me repeat this again, else I'll just start Ctrl C, Ctrl Ving.

It's not just Zico (as if 'just' Zico is a piece of cake) but it's Zico behind a FRONT TWO of Tostao and Romario!
To be fair, our offense isn't Maradona, either - but him being in the center of a trident of Džajić, Best and Van Basten.
But sure, there are two Matthaus on the pitch, who will man mark Zico (by your own admission) and will also be scoring screamers.
None of the gifs have him scoring screamers. Feel free to exaggerate, though.
 
Vierchowod marks Romário
Blanc reads Tostão's movement (who wasn't the fastest)
This is pretty suicidal, 2v2 against Tostao and Romario will leave you in tears and is absolutely unrealistic.

Not the first time a draft manager has made this mistake while facing a front two. The entire advantage of fielding a front two is outnumbering the defense and forcing the team to send players from other positions to help.

To add to that, both Zico and Tostao are at home playing as a forward or dropping deep as a #10, the sort of movement and passing that will pull your defenders out of shape. Matthaus and Tigana don't just have Zico to contend with, they have to help out your CB pair against the front two, and that is a mammoth task. Especially with a man marking blueprint that makes no sense against players who can beat an opponent in a blink of an eye with their explosiveness.

Romario is going to score with that service and what he's facing.
 
Don't really agree with this. I think he gets typecast in these drafts as a Bergomi/Burgnich type defender and he doesn't have the sex appeal of a Brazilian wing-back. Vogts was the top-rated Bundesliga player (by Kicker ratings) through the 1970s and that was down to both his defensive acumen and his energy going forward. He had to play more restricted roles for the national team to get the best out of Beckenbauer, but he was a big part of the lasting appeal of that great Monchengladbach side. And most of the old-school 3-5-2 or 5-3-2 set-ups often had fairly conventional full-backs in the wide roles, so tactically I think it's fine, especially against such a threatening attack.
That's fair, and to be honest, I didn't say he can only do the kind of job he did vs. Cruyff. Someone like Berthold played there for West Germany to the right of Augenthaler and Buchwald. However, from an objective standpoint - do you not think the alignment of his right flank is a bit off - especially when the lack of any sort of comprehensive attacking thread will free up Krol to sweep inwards (that's something he was renowned for with Ajax and the Netherlands).
 
Don't really agree with this. I think he gets typecast in these drafts as a Bergomi/Burgnich type defender and he doesn't have the sex appeal of a Brazilian wing-back. Vogts was the top-rated Bundesliga player (by Kicker ratings) through the 1970s and that was down to both his defensive acumen and his energy going forward. He had to play more restricted roles for the national team to get the best out of Beckenbauer, but he was a big part of the lasting appeal of that great Monchengladbach side. And most of the old-school 3-5-2 or 5-3-2 set-ups often had fairly conventional full-backs in the wide roles, so tactically I think it's fine, especially against such a threatening attack.
Cheers Gio.

That's a lot of what I based picking him for that role on.
 
but him being in the center of a trident of Džajić, Best and Van Basten.
Three absolutely ball dominant players then. Though that is expected in a fantasy draft final but isn't close to the synergy of the Zico-Tostao-Romario trident where players would be complimenting each other perfectly in terms of playing off one another, selflessness as well as positional interplay.

We can overload you between your defense and midfield OR in your penalty box depending on where Tostao and Zico place themselves. With that CM duo behind them providing constant turnovers and service, that will be a potent quality of that attack and one terribly difficult to contend with.
 
This is pretty suicidal, 2v2 against Tostao and Romario will leave you in tears and is absolutely unrealistic.
Disagree entirely. I guess having a boatload of defenders and central attackers is in vogue in these drafts now given the prevalence of 5212 based teams, but Blanc and Vierchowod are enough to keep tabs on your striker duo - especially with Krol sweeping in - as has been mentioned over and over and over again.
 
Three absolutely ball dominant players then.
Best played with Charlton and Law.
Van Basten was perfectly fine holding a high line - something he did over and over again for Milan in peak Serie A.

Come on now - we've seen these arguments before, and they're not based on much.
 
but Blanc and Vierchowod are enough to keep tabs on your striker duo.
You'll be lucky to have much support for that argument. As I said, completely unrealistic and that has nothing to do with their quality. That's a tactical blunder and you'll be outnumbered in your own penalty area against Tostao and Romario - good luck with that.
 
Best played with Charlton and Law.
Van Basten was perfectly fine holding a high line - something he did over and over again for Milan in peak Serie A.

Come on now - we've seen these arguments before, and they're not based on much.
Not van Basten, but Best, Maradona and Dzajic.

As I said, I'm not going to focus on that even if that is a problem in a real game - this is a fantasy game after all - but then compared to my trio it is definitely less complimentary and is going to be highly individualistic and not a combined effort with the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
 
You'll be lucky to have much support for that argument. As I said, completely unrealistic and that has nothing to do with their quality. That's a tactical blunder and you'll be outnumbered in your own penalty area against Tostao and Romario - good luck with that.
Outnumbered by 2 attackers vs. 2 defenders, a goalkeeper and Krol from time to time? Ok, fair enough I guess. :confused: