Good game @Downcast.
Really tough luck with the result and injuries
Really tough luck with the result and injuries
Surveillance Draft - R1 - VivaEAP vs Downcast
- Thread starter Physiocrat
- Start date
Baggio is a central midfielder? You sure that you haven't done a De Boer here, confusing Roberto with Dino? Seriously, wtf?
1st line-up: the idea was to have Baggio behind Eto'o & Kaka. If the opposing team has the ball, Baggio will remain at the heart of the game to limit the influence of Cambiasso-Effenberg. That is why, I say 2 players have to fight against 3 players (Maniche, Brolin, Baggio)... because the obsession of Pirès-Overmars will be to outflank my defence. Obvious to me.
I expect Effenberg & Cambiasso to be drowned. Effenberg was able to shine when he played with 6 more defensive players.
Yeah, no Denilson and no @Joga Bonito on the wings. I've never said they were traditional wingers but they were able to operate on the flanks: you just need to watch their best of on Youtube. Brolin was a right-midfielder in a 4-4-2 system at the WC 94.
My offensive strategy was not built to teach football to players like Abidal or Lahm... but to score goals... in a relatively straight-forward manner indeed.
For example, let's compare Overmars with Kaká. They both played for fantastic NT and clubs. If you look at their stats, you would see Overmars needs to play 5 games to score 1 goal while Kaká only needs 3 games. Of course, each player possesses his own qualities but I'm not so enthusiastic about Overmars who will be asked to do a lot of defensive work.
Kaka uncapable to provide width?
Yeah, very interesting, especially if Pizarro has excellent passing skills
Good game too. Not really a matter of luck here.
Things went as expected given the played together criteria (barthez-candela mistake for instance) and the intentional controversial choices
Well Brolin is proven as a wide midfielder and Kaka was formerly a wide midfielder who was moved central to maximise the impact of his sheer acceleration on the game. Then you also have Eto'o who is proven as a wide attacker at Inter and probed right across Barcelona's front line. Collectively there was plenty of width - the decisive factor was the balance in the centre of midfield.
Thanks to the voters who had compassion on me OR who have adhered to my strategy
@sajeev
@oneniltothearsenal
@2mufc0
@green_smiley
@Joga Bonito
@sajeev
@oneniltothearsenal
@2mufc0
@green_smiley
@Joga Bonito
Thanks to the voters who had compassion on me OR who have adhered to my strategy
@sajeev
@oneniltothearsenal
@2mufc0
@green_smiley
@Joga Bonito
Unlucky mate, not really about compassion because you can't see the vote score until you vote. Baggio is one of my favourite players of all time
. Can see why the other team won but shouldn't be by 20 odd vote margin imo.Thanks to the voters who had compassion on me OR who have adhered to my strategy
@sajeev
@oneniltothearsenal
@2mufc0
@green_smiley
@Joga Bonito
I think if you started with the initial formation I'd have second thoughts on the vote. It would posed a serious threat to EAP/Viva backline and with Xabi Alonso from deep would be a formidable team. Unlucky with tie injuries as well.
@Downcast FWIW mate, that attacking trio you built.. not enough was made of how Hyppia and Pepe are expected to deal with such class players through the middle.
@Downcast hard luck, mate. Injuries were harsh on your team. The scoreline should have been much closer and the match much more even imo.
Unlucky mate, not really about compassion because you can't see the vote score until you vote. Baggio is one of my favourite players of all time
I know
but one of my voters has changed his mind during the game.Sure, they are second-class defenders in this respect.
And @VivaJanuzaj knows that, in a previous life, I would have made 15 gifs to illustrate the battles pepe vs etoo or kaka vs hyppia
Sure, they are second-class defenders in this respect.
And @VivaJanuzaj knows that, in a previous life, I would have made 15 gifs to illustrate the battles pepe vs etoo or kaka vs hyppia
Second class is tad too harsh, but yeah...I was really hoping to avoid discussion on our CBs
Don't think they are second class defenders, but imo it all comes from shielding from midfield. You can have the best defenders out there but without the midfield being able to stop the ball early you'll get slaughtered and we had great help from two defensively strong midfielders.Sure, they are second-class defenders in this respect.
And @VivaJanuzaj knows that, in a previous life, I would have made 15 gifs to illustrate the battles pepe vs etoo or kaka vs hyppia
And yeah, I really expected a gif festival from you but I think the early lead kind of blew the wind out of your sails and that Eto'o injury was just a blow.
Hyypia is, really. Pepe, on the other hand, has been one of the best defenders in the world for quite some time. Never the best, but always somewhere near (and a clearly superior defender to his partner in crime Ramos).Second class is tad too harsh, but yeah...I was really hoping to avoid discussion on our CBs
He was a class player early in his scouse career, 2000-2005 abouts. Not fast, but good intelligence and positioning. The later years tend to cloud over his best era.
Second class is tad too harsh, but yeah...I was really hoping to avoid discussion on our CBs
Hyppia and even Pepe can be carried to some extent by a superior partner but not by each other in the context of the trio you were facing.
IMO he's a bit of a poor man's Hansen. Rate him as a defender but you need to upgrade him. Pepe on the other hand will make a good stopper for the next round so it's not that vital at this point given the pool.
Aye, I had no issue whatsoever with the width in Downcast's team. It just really needed a more traditional CM in there instead of that third AM.
No at all.
My main priority was not really to 'win' but to tell a new story.
1 year of drafts so I know voters' way of thinking: I knew it was challenging to sell Camoranesi as a defender, Brolin as a central midfielder able to offer something different and so on.
Before that game, my intention was only to focus on my players and not to denigrate the opposing players. Before my 1st post, the game was already over (9-2 for you). Then, I've taken the time to finish the explanation of my 1st line-up and dissect the style of play of Brolin. After that, I've submitted a 2nd line-up. Eto'o injury is rather anecdotal in the sense we had something like 17-3 just before (26-6 at the end).
I have made 24 posts here against 21 for you both. Let's say I was not interested in repeating this week that 'player A > player 1 and player B > player 2 so my team ABC will dominate away and at home'.
I forgot to respond at the time but I appreciated the Brolin vids. I do remember him at his peak but it was a long time ago and it was good to revisit him. He's certainly one I'd like to see appear again in a draft
It drives me mad during these games when I read that Baggio was incapable of providing width.
Drifting wide to receive the ball and then attacking the box with trickery and directness was at the very forefront of his greatest play.
Yes he wasn't the type to hug the touchline and deliver crosses from the byline but a side with Eto'o at its peak isn't going to be relying on that sort of width anyway.
He had exquisite close control and footwork, was one of the finest dribblers ever to play the game and loved taking on defenders at pace, particularly from wide areas. This consensus that he was a narrow player wrecks my head. You put him on the left hand side of a modern 3 pronged attack and he'd be devastating.
Drifting wide to receive the ball and then attacking the box with trickery and directness was at the very forefront of his greatest play.
Yes he wasn't the type to hug the touchline and deliver crosses from the byline but a side with Eto'o at its peak isn't going to be relying on that sort of width anyway.
He had exquisite close control and footwork, was one of the finest dribblers ever to play the game and loved taking on defenders at pace, particularly from wide areas. This consensus that he was a narrow player wrecks my head. You put him on the left hand side of a modern 3 pronged attack and he'd be devastating.
Agree, the one thing that Downcast's team definitely haven't lacked was width.
Widith tends to be discussed in a very black and white manner in these games, with supplementary width rarely getting much credit. Baggio and Kaka aren't going to provide the same consistent outlet on the wing as an Overmars will, nor will they attack the byline as often, but as you say they both did some of their best work from wide areas.
We're all guilty of the reductionist arguments though. If you're fielding two wingers of course you're going to highlight your width advantage, just as you'd argue that you'd control the midfield if you have greater numbers in the middle.
I agree with all that, but it seems some players are pigeonholed more than others.
Cristiano Ronaldo for example, isn't a winger who attacks the byline and sends over crosses. But if you put him (United/Early Madrid incarnation) as the left side option of your attack, nobody would criticise your lack of width, even through the places him and Baggio tended to receive the ball, and the lines they ran when they had it are quite similar.
What's the purpose of width? Width for me is stretching the defence. If a player is taking on or being covered by a fullback, then I can say he's operating on a wide area. If he tends to pick up a ball from a DM covered position and run at CB then it's not exactly width. Defence is still compact and goals are scored by individual abilities. A wide player should stretch the defence and open spaced for others to exploit. I don't think Baggio or Kaka fits that category.
By your definition, the United side of 2006-2008 with a front 3 of Ronny, Rooney and Tevez had no width.
United' Ronny can't be discounted as such. But Rooney/Tevez didn't offer width.
Kaka certainly fits in that category.
But they both did.
Just because they weren't situated on the flanks of the 2 dimensional formation Sky showed before the game, didn't mean they spent 90 minutes between the lines of the 18 yard box.
In that attack, each of the three were responsible for creating the space and width. I would wager that if we had heat maps for those seasons, Tevez and especially Rooney would have spent as much time in wide positions as Ronaldo did.
I agree that there's a distinction to be made between dropping out wide in deeper areas vs offering width further up the park, but I think you're off the mark with your conclusions about Baggio and Kaka. Here he's up against the midfield line when he picks the ball up, but once he slices through them he clearly pulls the RB away with him before beating the CBs.
This one is probably even clearer, with him picking the ball up wide high up the park, and getting past the side defenders before taking on the CBs:
The Kaka videos @Downcast posted clearly illustrate Kaka's ability to stretch defences, with him rinsing full backs constantly in this one particularly:
Of course there's still an argument to be made as to what extent these type of plays were a prominent feature of their game, and they still don't provide the constant outlet that someone like Overmars will, but it's inaccurate to disregard their contribution to width completely.
Is it possible to win trophies without 'pure wingers'?
Another question could have been 'What's the purpose of my offensive players?' To exploit the weaknesses of your second-class defenders
and.. score goals.Now, the use of 'pure wingers' is just one of the possibilities to destabilize a defence. For example, Kaka could operate between your defensive line and your midfield. In a certain sense, Candela & Camoranesi were capable to stretch your defence and so on...
I guess you have forgotten Kaka againt MUFC in 2007?
1st leg: he scored 1 goal
2nd leg: he scored 2 goals including 1 by 'providing width'. Heinze can confirm this information
Good post
Is it possible to win trophies without 'pure wingers'?
Another question could have been 'What's the purpose of my offensive players?' To exploit the weaknesses of your second-class defenders
It was a question that had nothing to do with this game.
Just a definition of width, generically. The last line of Pat's post covers my thoughts. These players do operate out wide, but how often in a match?
Hard to quantify.
However, you know the difference between Beckham, Cr7 and Tevez in terms of 'providing width'
I'm going to caricature some players but in terms of allocation of time per channels during a game, I'd say:
Beckham: 80% Channel 5 and 20% Channel 4
Overmars: 65% Channel 5 - 30% Channel 4 - 5% Channel 3
His obsession would be to beat the opposing fullback, deliver cut-backs or crosses from wide positions and, to a lesser extent, to beat defenders and score from close range. He will rely on his pace and good dribbling skills. HeAs part of the midfield here, he would be asked to track back all the way to his own corner flag should his FB require help, and also to track back his marker, as well as tucking into the midfield when the more central players are trying to pressure the opposition for the ball, a huge responsibility for
Kakà as a Support Striker version 2007: 25% Channel 5 - 35% Channel 4 - 25% Channel 3 - 10% Channel 2 - 5% Channel 1
At his prime, he has to considered as a free-role forward who won't defend a lot out wide while the players above have to press the opposition fullback when he has the ball.
Baggio 1992/93: 30% Channel 5 - 35% Channel 4 - 30% Channel 3 - 10% Channel 2
Unlike Pirès or Overmars, he can't rely on his pace and his 1st option is to shoot so he is more likely to hold the RB and then try to find a breach inside. Going on the left is needed to find spaces and diversify his game. If he runs into a shooting angle that is unlikely to become a goal, then he will try to find a way to pass the ball to the middle of the penalty box area allowing the CF to finish the job.
The 2 last players are much more attracted by the penalty area and tend to circumvent FB and operate between the lines.
Tevez as a Right-Forward /-3-3 system let's say 50% Channel 5 - 35% Channel 4 - 15% Channel 3
That is why, some use classifications like 'winger', 'left inside FW', 'outside FW'...