Surveillance Draft - R1 - VivaEAP vs Downcast

Who would win?

  • Total voters
    32
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Physiocrat

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Viva/EAP

Team tactics:
Classic 4-4-2, based on the lethal abilities of our front duo and the wide players to provide creativity and provide for the front duo. We will look to use our frontmen's speed in order to break away quickly.
Suarez & Shearer will look to pounce on any defensive positional error with their speed and hunger for goals, while two of Arsenal's best, Overmars-Petit, will look to challenge the full backs and stretch he defence. Both capable of playing at either wing we expect them to alternate during the match to make life harder for the defence.
At the middle, we've got Cambiasso-Effenberg holding the center midfield. Both CMs are very strong tacklers and have a high work rate and decent passing range. they're defensive efforts will be crucial to our win as neither of our CM is a weakness defensively.
Our defence is marshalled by our captain Lahm. Lahm will be allowed a bit more freedom moving than his counterpart Abidal as the latter will tuck in often. To complete the backline we've got 3 CL titles between Pepe & Hyypia. The duo may not be the flashiest of names, but at their prime they were both stood strong against some of the best attackers in the pool and made a good job more often than not. Behind them is the extremely reliable Peruzzi to organize it all.

Key battle to win the match:
1. Wide area - Downcast's team has a severe lack in width going forward, with his full backs required to push forward to help provide it, will result in Suarez-Overmars-Pires punishing for it when pushing wide. Suarez constant pressure and movement is bound to force Ayala out of position at some point. On the other hand the fact tha Downcast doesn't have proper wide players will make it easier for our defence to stand against their attacking force, with Abidal tucking in and Lahm helping against Baggio's drifts to wide areas.

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Downcast

The Unplayable Offensive Trio

Prima Punta - Etoo - Career Peak 2002/11 - FC Barcelona of Guardiola Ambassador

Seconda Punta / Fantasista - Kaká - CP 2002/07 - AC Milan Ambassador
Awarded the Ballon d'Or 2007 after a fantastic season as a Support Striker. "For two, maybe three seasons he was the best player in the world, there was nothing he couldn’t do." Ronaldinho

Regista - Roberto Baggio - #10 - CP 1990/95 - Juve Ambassador
Awarded the Ballon d'Or 1993 after a fantastic season as a goal-scoring #10.

Central midfield that brings teamwork, stamina and powerful shots

Left CM - Nuno Ricardo de Oliveira Ribeiro - CP 2003/06 - Porto Ambassador

Right CM Tomas BROLIN - CP 2003/06 - Parma Ambassador
World-class player in his prime known for his excellent dribbling skills, passing ability. Versatile thanks to his work-rate and tactical intelligence.

Defence comprised of versatile talented players

LWB - Vincent CANDELA - CP 1998/2002 - AS Roma Ambassador

LCB - Frank DE BOER - CP 1992/98 - AJAX Ambassador - Netherlands' 112 caps with Netherlands
He began his career as a LB before switching to centre back.

Sweeper - Roberto Ayala - CP 2000/04 - Valencia Ambassador - 115 caps with Argentina

RCB - Albert FERRER - Career Peak 1992/98 - FC Barcelona Cruyjff's Dream Team Ambassador
He mainly played as a RB but was sometimes used as a RCB (season 96/97)

RWB - Mauro CAMORANESI - Career Peak 2002/06 - Juventus Emissary - the tactical coup
Usually deployed as tenacious and aggressive hard-working right-winger in a 4-4-2 system, he was a quick and technically gifted player also known for his defensive contribution.

GK - Claudio Bravo - Career Peak 2012/16 - Barcelona Emmisary - 110 caps with Chile
 
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These are my personal two favorite sides so far. Voted for VIVAEAP as number 1 but that was on the basis that Brolin didn't feature. Will have to be a draw for me here for some impressive creativity and both sides being spot on.
 
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Good luck @Downcast , knowing you this is going to be a hard match.

I expected Xabi to start this even if it means Kaka has to be benched to gain more control in the middle, but actually this works even better for us. Yes Kaka's movement would be a threat but with no deep creative player who could run the play I reckon Effenberg-Cambiasso can be more useful in stopping the balls in the centre of the park and being dominant.
Our attack will cause havoc moving forward, Camoranesi vs Overmars would mean Overmars will definitely have space to feed the forwards and force Ferrer out of position
 
Really like Viva/EAP's team. Well set to be real contenders for overall draft IMO.
 
Yeah, I assume that it's Frank or it doesn't make any sense at all.

I would've swapped Overmars and Pires personally. Also Petit challenging the opposition's fullbacks from the stands sounds unnecessary and dangerous to me, I would've preferred Pires to do it instead.

Maniche - Brolin, with Baggio/Kaka ahead of them looks incredibly light-weighted for me. It would've been better if he had someone like Sammer instead of Ayala (not sure who of the great liberos is available in this pool), but with this personnel it seems ill-fitted.
 
Two interesting teams, lots of points to discuss, I should think. Both OPs in need of some proofreading, though.
 
Surely that's Frank in defence, Ronald was a winger.

Maniche and Brolin is a really underwhelming CM duo. Kaka and Baggio also are overlapping IMO.

I think Eto'o/Kaka and Baggio will have some joy against Hyppia and Pepe, but at this point EAP/Viva have the better team.
 
Frank de Boer - I had him in previous draft and iirc, the consensus was that he'll suffer against physically strong arial forwards and lacks pace. He'll struggle against Shearer and Pires/Lahm is a beautiful flank to take full advantage here.

Both Kaka and Baggio are AM/SS hybrids who prefer Inside Left channels. Two very similar players who overlap and do not complement each other.

Not really sure on Maniche/Brolin. Good players, but really underwhelming compared to stature of Cambiasso/Effenberg.
 
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Physiocrat said:
LCB - Ronald DE BOER - CP 1992/98 - AJAX Ambassador - Netherlands' 112 caps with Netherlands
He began his career as a LB before switching to centre back.
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Franck De Boer of course. I wrote Ronald because I spent 10 minutes to understand the style of play of the latter.
 


@harms to respond to the whole Pires Overmars thing. It's really a matter of personal preference with these two, but in this case we really prefer Overmars attacking the space left behind Camoranesi. Just look how quick he is and playing with no proper full back against him would mean he has so much space to exploit
 
It's a good, solid 4-4-2 from VJ/EAP. Complementary partnerships through the spine. The only questionable point is Pires on the right - again he was fine there but it was as an inside-left where he really shone. In the context of this game, Hyppia is a defender who I rate very highly but one who might be suspect to Eto'o's sheer pace. There's also the Baggio/Kaka factors to consider both of whom can exploit a 4-4-2.

Team downcast takes a bit more thought. Fortunately Suarez is on Ferrer's side so that's a better fit than a big lumberer whose feet would be too slow. I quite like De Boer on the side of a back three, really plays to his strengths - he reads the game well and his left peg was magic. Ayala would be a better fit for dealing with Shearer, matching him in the air and on the deck.

The midfield is somewhat top heavy, but you can get away with that in a 3-5-2 (see Real's McManaman, Redondo, Zidane trio) with grafting wing-backs. I'm not sold on Maniche here as he's got an important gig here anchoring it for the rest.
 
Upcast offensive strategy

1. Starting point: building of the strategy around Roberto Baggio

He was a tactically versatile player, with a good understanding of the game, and was comfortable attacking on both wings or through the centre of the pitch; this allowed him to play anywhere along the front-line --> But His preferred position was in a free-role, as a creative, AM playmaker, although he was rarely deployed in this position throughout his career due to the prevalence of the 4–4–2 formation, in which he usually functioned as a (support) striker.

Reference season 1992/93

--> Serie A: 21 goals in 27 games
--> UEFA Cup: 6 goals in 9 games
--> Offensive trio comprised of Moller, Baggio and the striker Vialli
--> Italy: 5 goals in 7 games
--> UEFA Cup Winner + Ballon d'Or



He's a prolific goalscorer: a unique "9 and a half" (not a true number 9 striker due to his creative ability but he scored more than a number 10 playmaker)



Baggio was also a set piece specialist, renowned for his accurate bending shots and free kicks. I can see the unstoppable Kaka getting numerous free kicks.



2. Role of Kaká: Defensive Line Breaker

He's the man who has largely contributed to the last golden age of AC Milan (Champions League Runner-Up in 2005 and then winner in 2007 without Scheva), making the bridge between slow old legends and a top striker (Scheva and then Inzaghi)

Reference season 2006/07

--> Serie A + Champions League: 18 goals in 48 games
--> The CF was Inzaghi
--> Brazil: 4 goals in 9 games
--> Champions League Winner + Ballon d'Or + Uefa super cup + fifa club WC

In terms of style of play, the following video sums up all my expectations in a big game: on the left, on the right, insane pace, provider of assists & set pieces...

You can guess he enabled Inzaghi to score the only one goal at the ECL Final in 2007



300px-Milan_vs_Liverpool_2007-05-23.svg.png


As you can see above, with 10 goals in 15 ECL games, Kaka was capable to carry the offensive strategy by himself.


3. Eto'o: the greatest CF of the 2000s in terms of consistency (just personal preference)

The most decorated African player of All-Time has demonstrated his ability to score in any circumstances during his career whatever the tactical system and colleagues (Messi, Mboma, Henry, Deco, Milito, Sneijder...) with Barcelona, Mallorca, Inter, Cameroon...

A fast striker was required to take the most of the duo Baggio-Kaká

Honours:19 collective trophies including 3 Champions League and 1 African Cup of Nations
Stats:
-56 goals in 118 games with Cameroon,
- 108 goals in 145 games with Barcelona
- the greatest top scorer in the history of the Africa Cup of Nations with 16 goals

On the other hand, Luis Suarez is the greatest CF of the 2010s.
 
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Gio said:
The only questionable point is Pires on the right - again he was fine there but it was as an inside-left where he really shone.

Fortunately Suarez is on Ferrer's side so that's a better fit than a big lumberer whose feet would be too slow. I quite like De Boer on the side of a back three, really plays to his strengths - he reads the game well and his left peg was magic. Ayala would be a better fit for dealing with Shearer, matching him in the air and on the deck.
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In current set up, Overmars faces off against Camoranesi. I rate Camoranesi as a hardworking wide midfielder, but a fullback is not his best position....esp since he faces off against someone as fast as Overmars. I reckon Overmars will have the upper edge all through and end up running at Ferrer. In addition we have Suarez drifting there, Ferrer will be hard pressed and needs constant support from Ayala....which would be difficult with Shearer bulling his way around there.
 
brilliant 442 team from EAP and Viva! Someone also mentioned how he would swap sides for Pires and Overmars and id prefer that because Pires is a bi wasted on the right IMO but i see why you did it, fullback-winger combos are spot on + Overmars vs Camoranesi is a big advantage for you guys.
In Downcast team i like the attack, we all probably do but the defence is a bit meh. Dont rate F. De Boer highly, Ferrer is a rightback from what i know and Camoranesi as much as i love him isnt the best option for a wingback.
 
Switch Overmars and Pires.
Out of them Overmars was better on the right (see the Italy - Holland Euro 2000 game where he rips apart Maldini).
 
harms said:
Maniche - Brolin, with Baggio/Kaka ahead of them looks incredibly light-weighted for me. It would've been better if he had someone like Sammer instead of Ayala (not sure who of the great liberos is available in this pool), but with this personnel it seems ill-fitted.
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Gio said:
The midfield is somewhat top heavy, but you can get away with that in a 3-5-2 (see Real's McManaman, Redondo, Zidane trio) with grafting wing-backs. I'm not sold on Maniche here as he's got an important gig here anchoring it for the rest.
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Enigma_87 said:
Maniche and Brolin is a really underwhelming CM duo. Kaka and Baggio also are overlapping IMO.
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Thanks for your contributions.

The debate #1: is my midfield light-weighted? Maybe tbh but I would like to explain the rationale.

1. Is it mandatory to have a pure destroyer #6 when there are 5 defenders? I don't think so

2. Maniche & Brolin are not Viera & Keane but they won't be isolated as they are between 3 central defenders behind and a attacking-playmaking midfielder... and Candela/Camoranesi are known for their high pressing & offensive contribution

3. Regarding Maniche, let's analyse Porto 2003/04: you have 5 defensive players (4 defenders + Costinha) and then you have Maniche on the left in a midfield diamond whose the super star is the #10 Deco... and then 2 strikers (while I have 1 striker + 1 support striker)

4. I will explain the choice of Brolin later :) And the partnership Brolin-Camoranesi as both are able to operate inside and on the right wing.

5. On the other hand, my central midfielders allow me to have a powerful creative power in offensive terms.
 
I think you should have a deeper playmaker next to Maniche and drop Brolin. Also one of Kaka/Baggio in that role and another striker instead of Kaka. The way I see it you have no control in the center with Brolin/Maniche and Baggio/Kaka is a bit of a clusterfeck.

I'm not sure who is pulling the strings in your team as you have 2 goalscoring #10's in Kaka and Baggio?
 
Downcast said:
1. Is it mandatory to have a pure destroyer #6 when there are 5 defenders? I don't think so
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Well, for one, you don't have 5 defenders - Camoranesi, for example, will need cover as he isn't a fullback but a wide midfielder. And you don't need a destroyer, but you need a ball-winner in the team or else you would be played off the pitch. Maniche was an attacking box-to-box, Broline, from my memory, was almost a second striker, in which he clashes with Baggio - Kaka here. They are going to watch how Effenberg and Cambiasso will methodically make simple passes to the wing, pushing the wingers forward, again and again, and won't be able to do anything about it.

If you would've had a more expansive libero - the type Beckenbauer or Scirea, it would've been much better. But you don't have one.
 
Raees said:
Really like Viva/EAP's team. Well set to be real contenders for overall draft IMO.
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Senna clashing with Pires was a blessing in disguise, they look much better with Cambiasso there.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I think you should have a deeper playmaker next to Maniche and drop Brolin. Also one of Kaka/Baggio in that role and another striker instead of Kaka. The way I see it you have no control in the center with Brolin/Maniche and Baggio/Kaka is a bit of a clusterfeck.

I'm not sure who is pulling the strings in your team as you have 2 goalscoring #10's in Kaka and Baggio?
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Boniek-Platini (Juve in the 80s) or Rui Costa-Kaka (Christmas tree of Ancelotti) were not a bit of clusterfeck IMO

In other words, I consider these 2 players complementary:

- Kaka tends to speed up the rythm (useful when it comes to counter-attacking as the team was not made to kidnapp the ball) and provides width
- and Baggio to hold the defence and attract the attention of the defensive players.

I would even add Kaka will shine thanks to Baggio & vice versa.

And if you watch the video kaka vs liverpool (2007), then you will see there is no potential conflict of interests between these 2 players. They are not similar players.
 
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I don't see anything wrong with Kaka and Baggio here, they are positioned perfectly. Baggio is better as the orchestrator and did so behind two forwards plenty of times while Kaka is at his explosive best in a free role - not that he wasnt a quality passer by any means - but his pace along with Eto'o will rip Hyypia a new one here.
 
Aldo said:
Switch Overmars and Pires.
Out of them Overmars was better on the right (see the Italy - Holland Euro 2000 game where he rips apart Maldini).
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Yeah I know that match well, but it was a decision based on matchups on the pitch and Overmars seems better fit for me to exploit the weakness on the opposition's right side.
Downcast said:
1. Is it mandatory to have a pure destroyer #6 when there are 5 defenders? I don't think so
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I agree that you don't need a destroyer if you have 5 defenders, but Camo is not a defender and you're not really playing five at the back.
Downcast said:
and Candela/Camoranesi are known for their high pressing & offensive contribution
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True, but sending them pressing is a suicide mission with the pace of our wide players and the fact that they two strong full backs to cover.
antohan said:
Senna clashing with Pires was a blessing in disguise, they look much better with Cambiasso there.
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Yes. we thought of taking Cambiasso before Senna but opted for the latter as he had better blocks(funny enough, one of them was Pires without us catching it on time)
 
Downcast said:
Boniek-Platini (Juve in the 80s) or Rui Costa-Kaka (Christmas tree of Ancelotti) were not a bit of clusterfeck IMO

In other words, I consider these 2 players complementary:

- Kaka tends to speed up the rythm (useful when it comes to counter-attacking as the team was not made to kidnapp the ball)
- and Baggio to hold the defence and attract the attention of the defensive players.

I would even add Kaka will shine thanks to Baggio & vice versa.

And if you watch the video kaka vs liverpool (2007), then you will see there is no potential conflict of interests between these 2 players. They are not similar players.
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Different players tho. Baggio is not Rui Costa. He's more of a goalscoring threat and loves that inside left channel. And this is not a Christmas tree but 5-3-2. In 2007 you had Seedorf instead of Baggio. Platini is also different to Baggio he liked to drop deep and more central.

Like the flanks and Eto'o on top. It's just those points that bug me at this point. Will keep tabs after the injuries and how the teams will pan out.
 
harms said:
Well, for one, you don't have 5 defenders - Camoranesi, for example, will need cover as he isn't a fullback but a wide midfielder. And you don't need a destroyer, but you need a ball-winner in the team or else you would be played off the pitch. Maniche was an attacking box-to-box, Broline, from my memory, was almost a second striker, in which he clashes with Baggio - Kaka here. They are going to watch how Effenberg and Cambiasso will methodically make simple passes to the wing, pushing the wingers forward, again and again, and won't be able to do anything about it.

If you would've had a more expansive libero - the type Beckenbauer or Scirea, it would've been much better. But you don't have one.
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Well, the spirit of that 1st line-up was to experiment new things and generate new debates.

I'm sorry but Camoranesi is a RWB here. What does the arrow on Ferrer mean? It means that Ferrer will cover Camoranesi when the latter will attack.

2 things regarding the right side:

1. Camoranesi is not a trivial/traditional modern winger. He was mainly deployed as right-side midfielder (like Robert Pirès... on the left side:smirk:). Camoranesi is a gift in tactical terms because he combines the Grinta of South-American players with the tactical awareness/versatility of a Calcio Player. High level of aggressivity & work-rate. On youtube, you could watch 'camoranesi in juventus'.

2. Ferrer (who spent most of his career as a RB) would be comfortable with his role.

European cup Final 1992 - Barcelona 1-0 Sampdoria

300px-FC_Barcelona-Sampdoria_1992-05-20.svg.png
 
You missed the point. For a team to not have a ball-winning midfielder, they need 5 defensive specialist, with wing backs like Cafu, not Camoranesi. Ferrer will cover for him, sure, but the main problem- that the oppositions midfielder will be able to push forward without any resistance, remains. While your other defenders are preoccupied with Shearer - Suarez
 
harms said:
You missed the point. For a team to not have a ball-winning midfielder, they need 5 defensive specialist, with wing backs like Cafu, not Camoranesi. Ferrer will cover for him, sure, but the main problem- that the oppositions midfielder will be able to push forward without any resistance, remains. While your other defenders are preoccupied with Shearer - Suarez
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I knew in advance my central midfield will be blamed for its lack of steel.

Baggio is not known for his defensive contribution of course but he remains a central midfielder: 3 players against 2 in the centre of the park is far from being anecdotal.

BTW It is not as if I'm surprised by the comments :)

Enigma_87 said:
Different players tho. Baggio is not Rui Costa. He's more of a goalscoring threat and loves that inside left channel. And this is not a Christmas tree but 5-3-2. In 2007 you had Seedorf instead of Baggio. Platini is also different to Baggio he liked to drop deep and more central.

Like the flanks and Eto'o on top. It's just those points that bug me at this point. Will keep tabs after the injuries and how the teams will pan out.
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Yeah, each player is unique of course and I know I don't have a Christmas Tree tactical system.

My point was just to say it is possible to harmoniously combine 2 attacking midfielders who are not pure wingers.
 
Downcast said:
My point was just to say it is possible to harmoniously combine 2 attacking midfielders who are not pure wingers.
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I totally agree with that but I just don't see where Brolin fits in. He offers nothing that Baggio and Kaka don't provide, he'll compete for time on the ball with them, and you could really have used a bit more dynamism and bite in that CM role instead.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
I totally agree with that but I just don't see where Brolin fits in. He offers nothing that Baggio and Kaka don't provide, he'll compete for time on the ball with them, and you could really have used a bit more dynamism and bite in that CM role instead.
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While he may not be ideal defensively, he sure makes up for it by offering a ton when the team do have the ball. He was a great right midfielder in '94 and adds another level of threat on the right wing and he also did play as a central midfielder for Parma in his last year. In this sort of pass-and-move/freeflowing type of attack he'd be an ideal player capable of running in to space and receive a ball and remain a threat regardless of where he ends up being. I think Downcast has a nice team which relies on solid positioning from the midfield in the defense, while relying on the back five to win the ball back.

I won't vote here myself as VivaEAP has a great team too, but I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with Downcasts team and setup.
 
Downcast said:
Yeah, each player is unique of course and I know I don't have a Christmas Tree tactical system.

My point was just to say it is possible to harmoniously combine 2 attacking midfielders who are not pure wingers.
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Nah, don't get me wrong. IMO if it was something like this:

---------Eto'o---------
----Baggio----Kaka----

would be a lot better. Same personnel but different roles. In this way Baggio can drop back and receive the ball and be the main conductor but also have room on the left, while Kaka can make runs on the right also stretching the play.

That I can see working :)
 
Pat_Mustard said:
I totally agree with that but I just don't see where Brolin fits in. He offers nothing that Baggio and Kaka don't provide, he'll compete for time on the ball with them, and you could really have used a bit more dynamism and bite in that CM role instead.
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Let's move on and speak about Brolin: focus on Sweden 2-2 Romania QF WC 94

After that, I would make subs so that I could present new players.

If I refer to his WC 94, he was deployed as right-side midfielder in a 4-4-2 system.

At his prime, he had a very good work-rate. I expect him to combine with Camoranesi to animate my right side.

Brolin who combines with the Swedish Camoranesi so that he can create opportunities for the offensive trio... or shot



Below: Swedish Candela ---> Swedish Camoranesi ---> Brolin



Extra time below



 
Pat_Mustard said:
I totally agree with that but I just don't see where Brolin fits in. He offers nothing that Baggio and Kaka don't provide, he'll compete for time on the ball with them, and you could really have used a bit more dynamism and bite in that CM role instead.
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Aye. I think if you wanted to give Baggio and Kaka ultimate freedom in a 3-4-2-1, the four behind have to fully functional and pragmatically focused on winning the ball back and giving it to the dazzling duo behind Eto'o.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Nah, don't get me wrong. IMO if it was something like this:

---------Eto'o---------
----Baggio----Kaka----

would be a lot better. Same personnel but different roles. In this way Baggio can drop back and receive the ball and be the main conductor but also have room on the left, while Kaka can make runs on the right also stretching the play.

That I can see working :)
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I can't disagree with you because I did want to have 3 tactical systems:

- the Christmas tree 4-3-2-1
- the 3-5-2
- the 4-3-1-2
 
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