Surveillance Draft - QF - Physiocrat vs Tuppet

Who would win?

  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .
Physiocrat said:
He did but Modric is no slouch defensively. Not as solid as the above but certianly can do a job. This also brings me to remind everyone jsut how good Modric is- since peak Xavi he has been the world's best CM bar none. Excellent range of short and long passing, work-rate and intelligence. There is no team in the world in which he would not improve their side.

This recent all touches compilation vs Barca shows his excellent passing range, dribbling and defensive nous.
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I agree with most of it, Modric is awesome. I just don't think you need as expensive passer and deep playmaker like Modric behind Riquelme. He needs to be the hub of everything and the rest of the midfield should mostly be about winning the ball and giving to Riquelme. Its something which has been a constant to Riquelme's success whenever he has expressed himself to best. Villareal had Senna, Tacchniardi & Sorin behind him, while Boca in his earlier years also had 3 hard workin CM in Basualdo, Serena & Battaglia & Argentina in his best form had Masch, Cambiasso & either a hard working Sorin or Rodriguez.

Don't get me wrong though, its not a game changing issue, but that midfield does not feel complimentary to me. Modric (who himself is a fantastic playmaker) is great but is a bit wasted there as Riquelme is going to have most of the ball. A lesser but defensively better player instead of Modric would have been perfect.
 
I'll participate in the discussions tomorrow.
 
Tactical change (Physiocrat) - 30min
Green Smiley isn't around so I'll post my 30min change. @Tuppet Please make any changes you want soon for the 30min change

Riquelme off, David Silva on

Physio-67-87-formation-tactics.png


Reverting to a 433 and a more counter attacking style with a normal backline with a half-court press. Silva's greater work rate will help in the contest against his diamond and will put much more pressure on Zidane. Thiago Silva's and De Rossi's passing range which provide quick transitions to unleash Laudrup and Signori or Serginho bombing forward. With the necessity of one or both full-backs popping forward in attack which they're more likely to do now I'm sitting deeper will provide Signori and Laudrup much more space to cause problems for Tuppet.

Player Name - Player Position - Player Role

Oliver Kahn - Goalkeeper - Stop the opposition from scoring
Thiago Silva - Centre Back - Ball Playing CB/ Covering Defender
Sol Campbell - Centre Back - Stopper
Lilian Thuram - Right Back - Defensive
Serginho - Left Back - Attacking
Daniele De Rossi - Defensive Midfielder - Holding and Destroying Midfielder
Luka Modric - Central Midfielder – Creative CM
David Silva - Attacking Midfielder – Creative attacking mid
Brian Laudrup - Right Wing – Roaming Winger
Beppe Signori - Left Wing – Goalscoring Inside Left
Ruud van Nistelrooy - Centre Forward – Cultured Target Man
 
Given the scoreline, you should have tried something drastic (mental)...Maybe a WM. Against a diamond you can get away with 3 at back, imo.


Signori...RvN......Laudrup
....Silva.....Riquelme...
....De Rossi...Modric......
Silva...Campbell...Thuram
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Given the scoreline, you should have tried something drastic (mental)...Maybe a WM. Against a diamond you can get away with 3 at back, imo.


Signori...RvN......Laudrup
....Silva.....Riquelme...
....De Rossi...Modric......
Silva...Campbell...Thuram
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In game terms Tuppet would only be up by 1 goal (I'd doubt that but anyway) after 30 mins. The new side has 60 mins to claw two goals back which it is more than capable of doing.
 
much better team after the change @Physiocrat , not sure why did you start with Riquelme as all your midfielders will play better in new system + Silva is a better player then Riquelme.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
much better team after the change @Physiocrat , not sure why did you start with Riquelme as all your midfielders will play better in new system + Silva is a better player then Riquelme.
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Yup agree with this. It's better side and way more balanced midfield.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
Did Geremi ever play CB regularly? I remember him as a right back and midfielder.
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I cocked that up. I was tired and annoyed. Thuram should have moved to CB with Geremi right.

Šjor Bepo said:
much better team after the change @Physiocrat , not sure why did you start with Riquelme as all your midfielders will play better in new system + Silva is a better player then Riquelme.
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I really like Riquelme as he brings fantastic vision and passing and loved the thought of him providing my front players.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
much better team after the change @Physiocrat , not sure why did you start with Riquelme as all your midfielders will play better in new system + Silva is a better player then Riquelme.
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For me I like the Riquelme version better than the David Silva version. Riquelme seems a bit underrated here. Not sure in peak form Silva has much if anything on Roman at all especially in the roles they are given.

I think Riquelme is much better suited to AMC/enganche role than Silva is to the CM role in 433 here. I'd also disagree Silva is objectively a "better" player. They offer different things.
 
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oneniltothearsenal said:
For me I like the Riquelme version better than the David Silva version. Riquelme seems a bit underrated here. Not sure in peak form Silva has much if anything on Roman at all especially in the roles they are given.

I think Riquelme is much better suited to AMC/enganche role than Silva is to the CM role in 433 here. I'd also disagree Silva is objectively a "better" player. They offer different things.
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I think most would agree that he's potentially great - in just the right setup. But it seems that hardly any setup is just right when it comes down to it.

He probably is a tad underrated all things said and done. But having said that I think people are often right to be skeptical about what he would bring to the table in a given match.

The above is a general remark, mind - I haven't had the chance to study his exact role (as described by the manager) here.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I think most would agree that he's potentially great - in just the right setup. But it seems that hardly any setup is just right when it comes down to it.
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Agreed. It seems the only system in which he is well regarded is a diamond or 3-4-1-2 in which he is the only creative player. DM and Box-to-box behind him and two mobile forwards in front of him such as Kaka and Shevchenko.
 
I think Riquelme is a little under-appreciated. From 2004-2006 with Villarreal and Argentina he was the best no 10 in the world. But he showed at Barcelona and through his relatively short high peak that his team accommodation needs are greater than most. His peak is certainly higher than Silva's for example, but the Spaniard is clearly a simpler fit in a range of set-ups and probably a more reliable 7/10 performer over the course of his career.
 
Gio said:
I think Riquelme is a little under-appreciated. From 2004-2006 with Villarreal and Argentina he was the best no 10 in the world. But he showed at Barcelona and through his relatively short high peak that his team accommodation needs are greater than most. His peak is certainly higher than Silva's for example, but the Spaniard is clearly a simpler fit in a range of set-ups and probably a more reliable 7/10 performer over the course of his career.
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That's a fair assessment.
 
Gio said:
I think Riquelme is a little under-appreciated. From 2004-2006 with Villarreal and Argentina he was the best no 10 in the world. But he showed at Barcelona and through his relatively short high peak that his team accommodation needs are greater than most. His peak is certainly higher than Silva's for example, but the Spaniard is clearly a simpler fit in a range of set-ups and probably a more reliable 7/10 performer over the course of his career.
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Big stretch. Better than Ronaldinho, Zidane, Nedved, Kaka, Deco at the time? No way.

Would take Lampard ahead of him at the time as well. He was a talent alright but rather overrated than underrated. He wasn't as consistent as the names mentioned and not at their peak level. His game was pretty entertaining but he never reached the heights he's supposedly good and talented for.

Deco for example is underrated around here and his top level is higher than Riquelme - 2 times CL winner with 2 different teams, UEFA cup winner, Ballon Dór 2nd place, instrumental for Porto and Barca in 5 league titles, yet somehow Riquelme peak would be better? I disagree. Especially considering you have to build a whole team around him and the right setup to make him shine. He has too many drawbacks - non existent work rate, not tactically versatile, dependent on formation, inconsistent etc.

Compare him to Nedved for example - Nedved doesn't have his natural talent, but he's twice the player Riquelme is due to his versatility, hard work and able to play either as a main man or support player in the team.
 
Riquelme is not good enough to play on the highest level, lovely player and a great player to watch but the cons are bigger/stronger then the pros. I know my opinion about him wont be popular because everybody loves Riquelme but feck it, thats the way i see him. There is not a single top team in last 15-20 years where id put Riquelme in and that not a good sign for a "great" player.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
Riquelme is not good enough to play on the highest level, lovely player and a great player to watch but the cons are bigger/stronger then the pros. I know my opinion about him wont be popular because everybody loves Riquelme but feck it, thats the way i see him. There is not a single top team in last 15-20 years where id put Riquelme in and that not a good sign for a "great" player.
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That's because they are great teams, while with Riquelme you have to build the team around him to begin with. He raises the level of all those around him making a decidedly average team compete with the best, but also making it all revolve around him (which is a rather vulnerable position to be in).

He raises the bottom level but in the process the team's top level is capped, if that makes any sense. Ergo, Barca were better off with Deco.
 
Aldo said:
The Argentine is more aesthetically pleasing but Pavel's entire offensive skillset far surpasses him.
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Yes, but this was all result of a hard work :) He became that complete player, while for one reason or another Riquelme never developed his to the fullest. Entertaining he might be and he's capable of pulling some great stuff, but the best #10 for two years, not at all.
antohan said:
That's because they are great teams, while with Riquelme you have to build the team around him to begin with. He raises the level of all those around him making a decidedly average team compete with the best, but also making it all revolve around him (which is a rather vulnerable position to be in).

He raises the bottom level but in the process the team's top level is capped, if that makes any sense. Ergo, Barca were better off with Deco.
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For Villareal - yes he excelled in probably what you call an average team.

I wouldn't call Argentina an average team at the time tho - young Messi, Tevez, Mascherano, Zanetti, Crespo, Ayala, Cambiasso, even Heinze was actually good at the time. Sure not the best international team, but far from average.
 
antohan said:
That's because they are great teams, while with Riquelme you have to build the team around him to begin with. He raises the level of all those around him making a decidedly average team compete with the best, but also making it all revolve around him (which is a rather vulnerable position to be in).

He raises the bottom level but in the process the team's top level is capped, if that makes any sense. Ergo, Barca were better off with Deco.
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Fair point, bottom line is that i dont think he is good enough to carry a top team so there is no point of building a team around him if you aspire to reach highest level, for a team like Villarreal he was perfect.
 
Aldo said:
He showed his talent pretty much from his younger years though, his performances in EURO 1996 as an all action midfielder bursting onto the scene are brilliant.
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Yes he was brilliant there and showed what is yet to come. Late bloomer at the time you might say tho - as he was 24 then playing for Sparta. If we compare him to Riquelme at around the same age he was transferred to Barca and the hype was unreal. Then the question was when he'll blend in he'll be great - never blended in tho.
 
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antohan said:
That's because they are great teams, while with Riquelme you have to build the team around him to begin with. He raises the level of all those around him making a decidedly average team compete with the best, but also making it all revolve around him (which is a rather vulnerable position to be in).

He raises the bottom level but in the process the team's top level is capped, if that makes any sense. Ergo, Barca were better off with Deco.
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The whole building the team around him isn't restricted to him - there are plenty of players who require that. Zidane for example gave his best with monster midfields like Davids/Deschampms, Petit/Deschamps and Makelele/Vieira behind him, the difference though was once you did that with those players there was little doubt that they will dominate the game and did so consistently for years at the biggest stage. I don't think Riquelme's case is one where his career suffered primarily because of being played in wrong systems, he just isn't a reliable player, and he only has that couple of year stint at the submarines in Europe to show which isn't remotely enough. Even if you really build the team to his merits he can still be found out against tough oppositions and needed more big game displays in my opinion to have a better reputation for his career. I'd have someone like Valeron easily ahead of him, when he has the same limitations himself that he needs a viable setup behind him but once he had that he dominated La Liga like few others and was the best #10 in Spain in the first half of last decade. Top teams have constantly opted for players who they knew required a platform to shine and they were willing to provide that, and there's a reason Riquelme didn't receive similar attention. There's no doubt that on his day he can be decisive but not nearly enough body of work - which I think is going a bit overlooked in recent discussions (see Gazza's performance in the other game). Talent alone doesn't cut the mustard when you are being compared with generational greats.
 
Great job & contributions @Physiocrat

Nice to see players like Serginho & Signori.

I prefer your defence and like your idea (Serginho known for his offensive contribution enable Signori to move upfront).

In the meantime, I'm inclined to prefer the offensive strategy of @Tuppet .

Sure, Riquelme is world-class player but he tends to slow down the game (subjective view).

Regarding Zlatan, my assumption was the Inter Milan version.
 
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Enigma_87 said:
Big stretch. Better than Ronaldinho, Zidane, Nedved, Kaka, Deco at the time? No way.

Would take Lampard ahead of him at the time as well. He was a talent alright but rather overrated than underrated. He wasn't as consistent as the names mentioned and not at their peak level. His game was pretty entertaining but he never reached the heights he's supposedly good and talented for.

Deco for example is underrated around here and his top level is higher than Riquelme - 2 times CL winner with 2 different teams, UEFA cup winner, Ballon Dór 2nd place, instrumental for Porto and Barca in 5 league titles, yet somehow Riquelme peak would be better? I disagree. Especially considering you have to build a whole team around him and the right setup to make him shine. He has too many drawbacks - non existent work rate, not tactically versatile, dependent on formation, inconsistent etc.

Compare him to Nedved for example - Nedved doesn't have his natural talent, but he's twice the player Riquelme is due to his versatility, hard work and able to play either as a main man or support player in the team.
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I stand by it. Between 2004 and 2006:
  • Ronaldinho was clearly the best player in the world but played off the left rather than in the central 10 role.
  • Zidane and Nedved were 32-34 and their powers were on the wane.
  • Deco at Barcelona became more of an 8 in a 4-3-3 rather than the 10 he was at Porto.
  • Lampard was always an 8 rather than a 10
  • Kaka pushed onto another level in 2006
The drawbacks you mention for Riquelme are all very true but are all irrelevant in assessing how he performed at Villarreal who built a set-up around his talents. Even though Ronaldinho was reaching incredible heights between 2003 and 2006, it was Riquelme who in 2004/05 managed to interrupt his winning streak in the Don Ballon La Liga Foreign Player of the Year Award. He was massively influential in Villarreal's run to the Champions League semi-finals the following season, then topped it off with some fantastic displays for Argentina at the 2006 World Cup.

His main faults were firstly his inability to sustain that level of performance in the mid-2000s for a longer period. And secondly his lack of flexibility in adapting to different set-ups. But neither of those points affected just what he delivered from 2004 to 2006.
 
Gio said:
I stand by it. Between 2004 and 2006:
  • Ronaldinho was clearly the best player in the world but played off the left rather than in the central 10 role.
  • Zidane and Nedved were 32-34 and their powers were on the wane.
  • Deco at Barcelona became more of an 8 in a 4-3-3 rather than the 10 he was at Porto.
  • Lampard was always an 8 rather than a 10
  • Kaka pushed onto another level in 2006
The drawbacks you mention for Riquelme are all very true but are all irrelevant in assessing how he performed at Villarreal who built a set-up around his talents. Even though Ronaldinho was reaching incredible heights between 2003 and 2006, it was Riquelme who in 2004/05 managed to interrupt his winning streak in the Don Ballon La Liga Foreign Player of the Year Award. He was massively influential in Villarreal's run to the Champions League semi-finals the following season, then topped it off with some fantastic displays for Argentina at the 2006 World Cup.

His main faults were firstly his inability to sustain that level of performance in the mid-2000s for a longer period. And secondly his lack of flexibility in adapting to different set-ups. But neither of those points affected just what he delivered from 2004 to 2006.
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I also missed Ballack on the list :)

Ronaldinho - was most on the left but played as a 10 a lot as well, and Riquelme is not a patch on him at his peak when he was also in his physical powers.
Nedved - won the Ballon D'oR at 31 and I wouldn't say he was on the wane, he was pretty much close to his peak then.
Still Deco - at Porto was better than Riquelme in the time specified - 2004. He was the best player on the park in that CL final as well and top assist in that year in CL. Even though is true that he played in 4-3-3 that's pretty much close to what Riquelme's role was as he had van Bommel and Edmilson for example besides him.
Zidane - although not at the peak of his powers still was pretty decisive player and his WC form proved it.
Kaka - was best during 06-07 which overlapped with Riquelme's best years 04-06 as you mentioned. Besides I'll always take Kaka in 04/05 form on the road to Instanbul where he scored 5 and assisted 5 and also probably had the best year in Seria A individually.
Lampard - again played a lot as an AM which is what you'd say a #10 in that Chelsea formation and was fantastic in 04-05 scoring some great numbers in prem - like 30 goals + assists and 4 excellent games against Barca and Bayern in CL where he was his team top man.

Winning the Don Ballon I'd take with a pinch of salt, especially since Kahveci won it for a foreign player of the year in 02/03 where it was pretty clear that Makaay was the better player and having the best year in his career(nominated and 13th tied for the Ballon Dór same year) and Vicente and Cazorla winning the domestic accolade with players like Villa, Iniesta, Xavi having arguably better years.

I really don't see what Riquelme brings more to the table than either of those players, while he's considerably worse pick when it comes to fitting in and blending in a team that isn't build for him.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Yes, but this was all result of a hard work :) He became that complete player, while for one reason or another Riquelme never developed his to the fullest. Entertaining he might be and he's capable of pulling some great stuff, but the best #10 for two years, not at all.


For Villareal - yes he excelled in probably what you call an average team.

I wouldn't call Argentina an average team at the time tho - young Messi, Tevez, Mascherano, Zanetti, Crespo, Ayala, Cambiasso, even Heinze was actually good at the time. Sure not the best international team, but far from average.
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The point was in an average team it works, while if you have great players and build the team around Riquelme you will constrain yourself. If the oppo gets Riquelme in their pocket they shut down your entire gameplan and leave you dependent on individual brilliance.
 
Gio said:
I stand by it. Between 2004 and 2006:
  • Ronaldinho was clearly the best player in the world but played off the left rather than in the central 10 role.
  • Zidane and Nedved were 32-34 and their powers were on the wane.
  • Deco at Barcelona became more of an 8 in a 4-3-3 rather than the 10 he was at Porto.
  • Lampard was always an 8 rather than a 10
  • Kaka pushed onto another level in 2006
The drawbacks you mention for Riquelme are all very true but are all irrelevant in assessing how he performed at Villarreal who built a set-up around his talents. Even though Ronaldinho was reaching incredible heights between 2003 and 2006, it was Riquelme who in 2004/05 managed to interrupt his winning streak in the Don Ballon La Liga Foreign Player of the Year Award. He was massively influential in Villarreal's run to the Champions League semi-finals the following season, then topped it off with some fantastic displays for Argentina at the 2006 World Cup.

His main faults were firstly his inability to sustain that level of performance in the mid-2000s for a longer period. And secondly his lack of flexibility in adapting to different set-ups. But neither of those points affected just what he delivered from 2004 to 2006.
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I interpreted your post that way, went through the same names and arrived at the same place bar Deco. Thus the "Barca were better off with Deco". He was more a 10 than 8 IMO. Sure if you play 4-3-3 there's no 10, but he did 10 stuff, not Lampard stuff.
 
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