Surveillance Draft- Final: Tuppet vs PatBepo

[Physiocrat]

Tuppet

Formation: A balanced, modern 4-2-3-1.
Defense line: Normal.
Philosophy: Direct high tempo football based on quick turn overs and counter attacks. We are not focused on possession although with our midfield we are bound to have a decent amount.

Samuel Eto'o joins my team as the last piece of puzzle for attack. Eto'o is the perfect striker for my team, not only is he one of the very best striker of this generation but also his searing pace and lethal finishing would push opponent's CB back and stretch the pitch vertically allowing Zidane and B. Laudrup space to use their dribbling and creativity creating chances for Eto'o & Forlan.

A side effect of Eto'o joining is Cech getting the boot. Fortunately there's no loss in quality as Cech is replaced by World cup winner Bodo Illgner, a legendry goal keeper and one of the best in the 90s. Other players have moved around a bit but the system is largely the same. Forlan takes the left forward position with freedom to roam around. Brian Laudrup plays as a more conventional winger on the other side.

Luis Enrique moves back to a box to box role in center midfield. While Lucho would make his trademark late runs in the box, his partner Schweinsteiger would be more of an alround playmaker and have a more disciplined role. Zinedine Zidane is still the crown jewel of my team, the best player on the pitch and instrumental in how my side would operate. As the primary playamker Zidane would dictate the attack for my side. He has a great setup here as well, with 2 hard working, sharp & mobile forwards, a tricky winger and a pair of all action midfielders, Zidane to me is the difference maker between both teams.

Finally our defense is top notch. Stam and Cannavaro are the best defenders on the pitch. Both were strong in the air, excellent tacklers, and very fast on their feet – at least in long distance runs. The speed of these players lets them cover large spaces, and they serve as a secure protection against counterattacks. At the same time, they can very proactively use their intelligence, athleticism and strong tackling to quash the attacks. Their strength actually matches very well against RVN. Evra & Arce play as modern fullbacks supporting attacks with overlapping runs, while still minding their defensive duties.

PatBepo have a great team and with our systems largely the same, I think it would come down to personnel mostly. There is not much into it, but I have a superior defense and my attack would trouble his defense more than his would against my defense. Having the best player and one of the finest big tournament performer on the pitch in Zidane also helps.

Subs: 12. Ibrahimovic 13. Ince 14. Kompany

Bench: Candela, Yaya, Nani

PatBepo

Formation: 4-3-3

Our tactics remain unchanged from our quarter final: our hard-working attackers and exceptionally energetic midfield allow us to adopt an aggressive counter-pressing style out of possession, and a quick tempo to our attacking game. Our attackers have the dynamism and workrate to support our aggressive pressing strategy, with Villa in particular having impeccable pedigree after excelling in one of the most demanding pressing systems of all. Moreover, with two brilliant finishers in Villa and van Nistelrooy and the outstanding winger on the pitch in Figo, we’ll have a deadly cutting edge to our attacks. van Nistelrooy will be in his element here with top quality service from Figo and Gascoigne, and an intelligent, selfless foil in Villa.

We bolster our defence considerably, with the legendary Oliver Kahn replacing Hugo Lloris, and generational great Thiago Silva coming in for Basile Boli. As said, we hope to play this match on the front-foot, press aggressively, and hopefully establish a posession advantage, so the defensive line will be moderately high initially, dropping back when the initial press fails to regain possession.

Tuppet’s squad is excellent across the board, and we anticipate a close match. That said, we do have some advantages here:

- Kahn is the superior goalkeeper to Illgner, good as Illgner was.
- While all four centre backs on the pitch are top class in this drafting pool, Ferrara/Thiago Silva seems better-balanced than Stam/Cannavaro, with more ability on the ball.
- Villa vs Arce looks a highly likely route to goal for us. On the other flank, as good as Evra was Ballon d’Or era Figo is one of the few wingers in the draft who can reasonably expect to edge an individual duel with him.
- Redondo vs Zidane: These two have met before, with Redondo’s Real Madrid defeating Zidane’s Juve in the 1998 CL final, and Redondo turning in a MOTM performance.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Pat_Mustard @Šjor Bepo @Tuppet

Game on!

 

[Gio]

Tasty match-up this worthy of a final. Both teams look very similar both in terms of personnel and in their tactics - even down to the finer details (the deep playmaker on the left, the box-to-box boy on the right, the inventive winger on the right, the inside-left-cum-striker.

 

[Raees]

Good teams.. very tight game this but I can't see a weakness in pats side.

 

[BorisDeLeFora]

Tasty match-up this worthy of a final. Both teams look very similar both in terms of personnel and in their tactics - even down to the finer details (the deep playmaker on the left, the box-to-box boy on the right, the inventive winger on the right, the inside-left-cum-striker.

Even has an Evra vs. Cole debate at left back.

 

[Gio]

Even has an Evra vs. Cole debate at left back.

Aye, and two right-backs who flew under the radar a wee bit in the late 1990s but whose strengths were very much on the ball.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

good luck tuppet, you built a great side.
To criticize it i have to nitpick so a midfield is a little to offensive for my liking, specially considering the quality of ours they are facing. Saying that, we expect to dominate possession(Redondo will be directly against Zidane in possession as other midfielders have to cover for Gazza and Vidal and wide man need to cover for fullbacks as both are quality going forwards) wise which would ensure our offensive talent to have more chances to shine which would also bolster our defence.
Redondo would control the game we are 100% sure of it, its just the question who is going to have the upper hand in the final third, you from the counter or we via possession and pressure.
We think we have enough in individual battles after we sustaine dominance on a possession ground. Both midfielders are pretty similar quality wise we just think our is more balanced so Gazza and Vidal would have higher chance of getting something compared to Lucho and Zidane. On the wing we think we have the upper hand, Figo vs Evra and Villa vs Arce seem a much more clearer routes then on the opposite side, specially when you take in mind they will have more time on the ball as well. Ruud is against 2 beasts but there is always a goal in Ruud.

We see your biggest threat on the counter with Zidane leading the way, Redondo will always be deep so he is like a safety net in our team and with fantastic engines of our other 2 midfielders we think we are well supported to defend the counter.

 

[Tuppet]

Best of luck @Šjor Bepo @Pat_Mustard.

- While all four centre backs on the pitch are top class in this drafting pool, Ferrara/Thiago Silva seems better-balanced than Stam/Cannavaro, with more ability on the ball.

I dont' think you could lump all 4 center backs in one group. Both Thiago silva and Ferrara are a step below Stam and Cannavaro. In particular Thiago Silva who I think is incredibly overrated. Eto'o made mugs of far better defenders than him including the likes of Ferdi/Vidic and with Zidane behind him here I don't think your defense would be able to hold up.

Don't agree with better balanced comment either, both of my defenders are modern CBs and its not a Sweeper/Stopper pair. Cannavaro won the world cup with Materazzi beside him and Stam would be just fine as his partner. Also don't think either Silva (who played most of his career with a Ball playing defender in Luiz) or Ferrara are particularly gifted on ball.

- Villa vs Arce looks a highly likely route to goal for us. On the other flank, as good as Evra was Ballon d’Or era Figo is one of the few wingers in the draft who can reasonably expect to edge an individual duel with him.

Villa vs Arce is just as likely route to goal as Forlan vs Peterscu and individually I don't think there is much between either the attacker or the defender here. Evra vs Figo is in you favour but Figo was a creative influence and even when he wins his duel with Evra and set up your forward, I don't see RVN getting any joy with Stam & Cannavaro. Laudrup should not be forgotten as well, as good as Cole is Laudrup ran Maldini ragged. Laudrup was a big game player who Unlike Figo dragged his team to European success. Cole by no means has it easy here.

- Redondo vs Zidane: These two have met before, with Redondo’s Real Madrid defeating Zidane’s Juve in the 1998 CL final, and Redondo turning in a MOTM performance.

While this is true superficially, if you look more closely, It was a really poor game which was decided by Juventus having a mare in front of goal and an offside goal from Real. Zidane and Redondo hardly had a battle in the game and both had there moments against each other. While I would not use this in his highlight reel, here is Zidane in that game -


For example check on 0:38 where Zidane leaves Redondo for dead to set up Di Livio who promptly proceed to give it back to Real. The point is I don't think Redondo is enough to nullify Zidane's threat. You would either have to hope that he is having a really bad day or the forwards are missing everything.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Good luck @Tuppet . Flying visit from me here as I'm not going to get a chance to contribute here until later, maybe even the morning.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Will post tonight and then Pat can take over tomorrow.

I dont' think you could lump all 4 center backs in one group. Both Thiago silva and Ferrara are a step below Stam and Cannavaro. In particular Thiago Silva who I think is incredibly overrated. Eto'o made mugs of far better defenders than him including the likes of Ferdi/Vidic and with Zidane behind him here I don't think your defense would be able to hold up.

Agree that Cannavaro and Stam are best defenders on the pitch, what Eto'o did to better defenders is irelevant though as at the time he was playing for the best team in the world that were taking the piss against 99% of the teams and dominated the games like no team before.

Don't agree with better balanced comment either, both of my defenders are modern CBs and its not a Sweeper/Stopper pair. Cannavaro won the world cup with Materazzi beside him and Stam would be just fine as his partner. Also don't think either Silva (who played most of his career with a Ball playing defender in Luiz) or Ferrara are particularly gifted on ball.

No, both are stoppers. At least in my book. Sometimes both of the same work but i very much prefer stopper/sweeper combo.

Villa vs Arce is just as likely route to goal as Forlan vs Peterscu and individually I don't think there is much between either the attacker or the defender here. Evra vs Figo is in you favour but Figo was a creative influence and even when he wins his duel with Evra and set up your forward, I don't see RVN getting any joy with Stam & Cannavaro. Laudrup should not be forgotten as well, as good as Cole is Laudrup ran Maldini ragged. Laudrup was a big game player who Unlike Figo dragged his team to European success. Cole by no means has it easy here.

We dont agree, think both Villa and Petrescu are class above the opposite pair in Arce and Forlan. Whats your point on Figo, that he wasnt a big game player?
We agree that Laudrup is a fantastic player and Cole will have his hands full but in our opinion and im confident to say in opinion of 90% people that watched all 4 players, we have the clear upper hand in that duel.

While this is true superficially, if you look more closely, It was a really poor game which was decided by Juventus having a mare in front of goal and an offside goal from Real. Zidane and Redondo hardly had a battle in the game and both had there moments against each other. While I would not use this in his highlight reel, here is Zidane in that game -


For example check on 0:38 where Zidane leaves Redondo for dead to set up Di Livio who promptly proceed to give it back to Real. The point is I don't think Redondo is enough to nullify Zidane's threat. You would either have to hope that he is having a really bad day or the forwards are missing everything.

Dont remember that game so will let you have that debate with Pat tomorrow.

 

[Tuppet]

Agree that Cannavaro and Stam are best defenders on the pitch, what Eto'o did to better defenders is irelevant though as at the time he was playing for the best team in the world that were taking the piss against 99% of the teams and dominated the games like no team before.

I am not sure how what my main striker did to better defenders than yours is largely irrelevant. How else are we suppose to asses his threat to your defense then ? In any case even if you don't count Guardiola's Barcelona team (And why wouldn't you really, he scored those goals) he was scoring in CL finals before that and has won CL both with Rijkaard's Barcelona and Mourinho's Inter. In fact he finished up as 3rd in Ballon D'or and won the Pichichi with Rijkaard's Barcelona.

No, both are stoppers. At least in my book. Sometimes both of the same work but i very much prefer stopper/sweeper combo.

Who would you say is the sweeper in your team ?
Also look at the defenders Cannavaro had as partners throughout his career - Thuram, Couto, Montero, Materazzi. Only Nesta in national team would probably be counted as a very good ball playing defender, and even then Canna's best national team achievement came with Materazzi. He was regarded as the best defender in Italy around 2004-06 period, where he won defender of the year award both years and his partners were Montero/Thuram/Ferrara etc. neither of those were in a classical sweeper mold.

We dont agree, think both Villa and Petrescu are class above the opposite pair in Arce and Forlan. Whats your point on Figo, that he wasnt a big game player?
We agree that Laudrup is a fantastic player and Cole will have his hands full but in our opinion and im confident to say in opinion of 90% people that watched all 4 players, we have the clear upper hand in that duel.

How Villa is a class above Forlan ? Forlan won pichichi for example two times over Villa playing in a similar caliber team in a largely similar role. They both had their best world cup in 2010 where Forlan was the golden ball winner to Villa's Bronze ball. I would shamefully admit that my knowledge of both Arce and Petrescu is limited to what I've read on Internet and they largely rated as similar caliber players.

On Figo my point was not to belittle him but to big up Laudrup. It was a bit tongue in cheek I'll admit.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I am not sure how what my main striker did to better defenders than yours is largely irrelevant. How else are we suppose to asses his threat to your defense then ? In any case even if you don't count Guardiola's Barcelona team (And why wouldn't you really, he scored those goals) he was scoring in CL finals before that and has won CL both with Rijkaard's Barcelona and Mourinho's Inter. In fact he finished up as 3rd in Ballon D'or and won the Pichichi with Rijkaard's Barcelona.

I either expressed myself poorly or you misunderstood me(or both lol), what i meant to say is that just because Etoo got the better of Vida and Rio doesnt mean that he would automatically then destroy any defenders that are below that two.

Who would you say is the sweeper in your team ?
Also look at the defenders Cannavaro had as partners throughout his career - Thuram, Couto, Montero, Materazzi. He was regarded as the best defender in Italy around 2004-06 period, where he won defender of the year award both years and his partners were Montero/Thuram/Ferrara etc. neither of those were in a classical sweeper mold.

Ours its a bit difficult to asses, specially Ferrara who at times played like a perfect stopper and then like a perfect sweeper. Id have both him and Silva as complete defenders with brazilian nagging to the sweeper side of things. Id have Thuram in that same category of a complete defender. But thats just a stylistic observation, just because someone is more complete doesnt mean he is better.

How Villa is a class above Forlan ? Forlan won pichichi for example two times over Villa playing in a similar caliber team in a largely similar role. They both had their best world cup in 2010 where Forlan was the golden ball winner to Villa's Bronze ball. I would shamefully admit that my knowledge of both Arce and Petrescu is limited to what I've read on Internet and they largely rated as similar caliber players.

Class above comment was over the top i admit that but id have Villa as a comfortably better player then Forlan and i love and rate Diego very highly.

 

[Tuppet]

Ok, Gif time. Love me some Eto'o -

Spoiler: A Zidane through ball and -

Spoiler: Speed on display, although he ended up losing the ball here -

Spoiler: Not just a speed merchant -

I think of all the great players on display its Eto'o and my defense that gives me edge. Zidane, Figo, Redondo, Basti, Gazza, Laudrup all would provide eye catching passes, creativity, dribbling and trickery but Eto'o pace is a game changer. PatBepo's attack as good as it is, is a bit single paced and easier to defend against. Stylistically as well I think Cannavaro & Stam match up well with RVN, whose physical presence used to be a big factor in his game, it gave him advantage over many defenders and give him the split second to get his sniper finishing work. That would be hard to exert against my defense more specifically against Stam.

 

[Tuppet]

I either expressed myself poorly or you misunderstood me(or both lol), what i meant to say is that just because Etoo got the better of Vida and Rio doesnt mean that he would automatically then destroy any defenders that are below that two.

I understand where you are coming from mate but thats kind of what Draft games are all about aren't they ? I mean not if it happened once, otherwise I would claim that Laudrup will destroy Cole since he had that game against Maldini. But Eto'o consistently beat better defenders than yours over a long enough period of time, so its natural to assume that he has a good chance against your defense. There's always a chance that your team plays a blinder and my team has one of those days where nothing works, but over a number of games I would back Eto'o to generally get better of Silva/Ferrara.

 

[NoPace]

Tuppet has a strong team too, but I voted for Pat, as:

1. His midfield trio seems more balanced, so while Zidane is better than Gascoigne, he might end up with similar amount of impact on the game, as Redondo and Vidal can give him more chances and space than I think Schweinsteiger and Lucho would, albeit narrowly.
2. I trust Figo against Evra to create more chances for RVN and Nistelrooy than Laudrup vs. Cole to create for Eto'o and Forlan. In general, the width of Petrescu/Figo seems more likely to trouble the narrowness of Forlan/Evra than the width of Laudrup/Arce to trouble the narrowness of Villa/Cole.
3. Villa vs. Arce could be real trouble. Villa's peak in his final couple seasons at Valencia (and simultaneously for Spain) he was as deadly but even quicker than at Barcelona, and you can see it in his scoring (and assist) record for club and country being great instead of just very good. Arce I remember as fine, but not much more.

Where Tuppet has slight advantages, I felt they'd be mitigated (better CBs, but Kahn is the stronger keeper, Zidane as the free 10 over Gascoigne but I see him getting less chances on the ball).

I am given a bit of pause by how comfortable Zidane and Forlan would be swapping spots, with Zizou roaming left, Forlan coming in and so providing an overload in that area (with Laudrup wide opposite so things aren't too narrow) for shots or through balls to Eto'o, but in the end I'll say 2-1 for Pat.

Next draft, another one with modern players is my suggestion. I barely remember some of these guys and certainly don't have a strong take about say, Ferrara, who I saw a few times in the CL for Juve when I was a teenager. Would much rather argue about guys from the last decade.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I understand where you are coming from mate but thats kind of what Draft games are all about aren't they ? I mean not if it happened once, otherwise I would claim that Laudrup will destroy Cole since he had that game against Maldini. But Eto'o consistently beat better defenders than yours over a long enough period of time, so its natural to assume that he has a good chance against your defense. There's always a chance that your team plays a blinder and my team has one of those days where nothing works, but over a number of games I would back Eto'o to generally get better of Silva/Ferrara.

Its more a combined view of player talents and specific situation they are in. Player quality is only one piece of the puzzle, we should look take everything into consideration in this draft games from supporting staff, general tactics of both teams, quality of opponent, specific atributes of both etc.
Regarding Eto'o, its a clear route to goal thats for sure, him on the break is the most dangerous and clear route to goal you have we wont deny that but we feel we can score more from our possession dominance then you can from the counters.
Regarding you comment that we are a bit single paced, yes we dont have a speed demon like Eto'o but Villa was no slouch and dont forget a bundle of energy that is, Paul Gascoigne.

Spoiler: brute force

Spoiler: dancing shoes vs Dunga and his entourage

Spoiler: Albertini, Leonardo, Maldini, Baresi....

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Great final match. I think both teams continued to reinforce excellent with Eto'o being a great upgrade for Tuppet and PatBepo improving their defense a lot with Silva and Kahn.

I love that PatBepo midfield. Just seems perfectly balanced with such a range of skills. At the same time I think Eto'o just fits better with Zidane than Zlatan did stylistically. hard for me to imagine either team gaining a significant advantage atm.

 

[Gio]

I'm not gonna rehearse the Thiago Silva debate again, but irrespective of how you rate him (and I obviously place him higher than most), he's the best fit of the four defenders considering what they're up against. His athleticism, ability to play a high line, and ability to read and cover makes him as good a fit as any to dealing with Eto'o. Not that Tuppet's partnership at the other end look anything other than formidable.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I'm not gonna rehearse the Thiago Silva debate again, but irrespective of how you rate him (and I obviously place him higher than most), he's the best fit of the four defenders considering what they're up against. His athleticism, ability to play a high line, and ability to read and cover makes him as good a fit as any to dealing with Eto'o. Not that Tuppet's partnership at the other end look anything other than formidable.

That's a good point. Sometimes a player who overall might be rated lower is still a better match stylistically than another player. I actually see that as an advantage for both teams though. Silva and Ferrara seem good matches against Eto'o and vice versa with Stam and Cannavaro against Ruud.

For me, its coming down to who gets the better of the opposing right back which is both team's weak spot imo.

 

[Physiocrat]

Anyone around who I can PM changes to who could update the thread in two hours or so?

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Ill be online for the next 3-4 hours.

 

[Physiocrat]

Ill be online for the next 3-4 hours.

Thanks will send

 

[Enigma_87]

Very even matchup this. Went for Tuppet at the moment as I think Cannavaro and Stam are more likely to sniff out the attacking danger RvN and Villa would provide compared to Silva and Ferrara(yes I don't rate Silva all that high).

Well done to both(three) managers, two fantastic teams and to be brutally honest I see injuries being the decider in this one. If one team gets an injury it will be hard to cope with the oppo quality given the bench and potential changes.

It's really tight, I love Tuppet's balance in the team and really a perfect stage for Zidane to shine.

Where Pat/Sjor have an advantage is Figo vs Evra and the fantastic midfield. I'm just not that convinced with that defence apart from Cole.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Unfortunately after a crazy scuffle, Ciro Ferrara is injured

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

PatBepo bring on Yaya Toure for Ferrara

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Also don't think either Silva (who played most of his career with a Ball playing defender in Luiz) or Ferrara are particularly gifted on ball.

Does one of the best midfielders in history of PL fits the bill?
On a serious note, Yaya played CB in the CL final against us and he did a job, keept a clean sheet against the likes of Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez.
He wasnt exposed because he didnt have to do much in terms of classical defending, majority of his defending was 1v1 as his team dominated the possession so he was tested only on counters, same case as here. Great physical presence, good athleticism, surrounded by top defenders and leaders in Cole and Silva(leader),protected by Redondo and two midfield dynamos as well as being part of a team that will dominate possession. Its a weakness obviously but not as big as it seems on the first glance.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Before i go to sleep, any excuse to post this:

 

[Tuppet]

Does one of the best midfielders in history of PL fits the bill?
On a serious note, Yaya played CB in the CL final against us and he did a job, keept a clean sheet against the likes of Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez. He wasnt exposed because he didnt have to do much in terms of classical defending, majority of his defending was 1v1 as his team dominated the possession so he was tested only on counters, same case as here. Great physical presence, good athleticism, surrounded by top defenders and leaders in Cole and Silva(leader) and also protected by Redondo and two midfield dynamos as well as being part of a team that will dominate possession. Its a weakness obviously but not as big as it seems on the first glance.

Man, looking at the sub list that was a brutal injury, as you had good replacements for other positions. Its sad but I can't see how this won't decide the game in our favor now. I would just like to make a point on Possession here. My team is not playing for possession stats but looking at the quality of both midfield its not going to be a crazy difference, most likely a difference of 5%. Neither Gazza nor Vidal is a particularly possession oriented player and I would actually back Basti and Zidane to hold up the ball better than them. Redondo fair enough is great but you really don't have personnel to emulate anywhere near the Barca possession team.

 

[Tuppet]

Also the injury happened fairly early in the game, there is still 60 minutes to go and it would be a long 60 minutes for Toure in that position. I wonder if you would reassess your vote @Gio @crappycraperson @Raees @Mciahel Goodman @NoPace @DavidG

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Man, looking at the sub list that was a brutal injury, as you had good replacements for other positions. Its sad but I can't see how this won't decide the game in our favor now. I would just like to make a point on Possession here. My team is not playing for possession stats but looking at the quality of both midfield its not going to be a crazy difference, most likely a difference of 5%. Neither Gazza nor Vidal is a particularly possession oriented player and I would actually back Basti and Zidane to hold up the ball better than them. Redondo fair enough is great but you really don't have personnel to emulate anywhere near the Barca possession team.

We dont try to emulate Barca, we just think we would dominate possession specially as your tactic is to play a quick counter-attacking football.
Redondo pretty much has a free pass in controlling the game as he is marked by Zidane, both CB now are great on the ball, both fullbacks are good in possession, Vidal while isnt the most obvious choice when it comes to possession always plays in a team that dominates possession wise(Juve, Bayern under Pep, Chile) and he is always one of the better players in the team. You can find better wingers then Figo sure, but can you find a winger that had a better all-around game then him? He was absolute quality in possession and then you have Villa who played a big part in Pep's Tiki Taka team.
Ohh forgot Gazza, while his skills, runs and pure madness goes to the first plan when you think of him he was a wonderful player with a very good football brain.

ps: thats it from me, @Pat_Mustard will take over in the morning

 

[Tuppet]

We dont try to emulate Barca, we just think we would dominate possession specially as your tactic is to play a quick counter-attacking football.
Redondo pretty much has a free pass in controlling the game as he is marked by Zidane, both CB now are great on the ball, both fullbacks are good in possession, Vidal while isnt the most obvious choice when it comes to possession always plays in a team that dominates possession wise(Juve, Bayern under Pep, Chile) and he is always one of the better players in the team. You can find better wingers then Figo sure, but can you find a winger that had a better all-around game then him? He was absolute quality in possession and then you have Villa who played a big part in Pep's Tiki Taka team.
Ohh forgot Gazza, while his skills, runs and pure madness goes to the first plan when you think of him he was a wonderful player with a very good football brain.

ps: thats it from me, @Pat_Mustard will take over in the morning

Alright mate this is my last post for today as well, I'll wait for Pat for further discussions. So just to clarify a bit more on possession battle and midfield -

The only reason I mentioned Barca is because of Toure, it was Barca's high possession strategy which shielded him and has actually allowed them to field some fairly underwhelming defenders. That's not gonna happen here. Even though I am playing direct football it hardly means that we are playing solely on counter and won't have a good amount of possession ourselves. Heckney's Bayern, Fergie's Utd and many others have played direct football but have dominated possession. Anyway I am not even saying you wont have more possession its just wont be a bigger than 5% swing and more likely is to be a 50-50 thing.

The more I think the less I find your midfield to be suitable for holding possession actually. Gazza is so not the AMC to try and hold onto the ball. He was as you mentioned many times a powerhouse, more likely to receive the ball and run toward opposition's goal than play neat 1-2s and build up patiently. I am not underrating him btw, he got great skills but its not about technique. Its the same reason why a Gerrard or Keane would be far less suitable to possession game than say Busquets. Then there is Vidal who is another of those powerhouse box to box players. Its only Redondo who would be happy to play that game and thats not enough, even Xavi can not do it alone.

Anyway, onto my team, I think Lucho is flying under the radar a bit. It seem he is seen as less defensively solid then Vidal, which may be true but the flip side is he is far more dangerous while attacking. He provides an incredible secondary goal threat from midfield that Vidal or Redondo can not match really. Brilliant in air and his late runs would cause havoc when toure/silva are already stretched thin trying to defend against Eto'o & Forlan. Heading is another interesting part, how good was Toure in air really ? could he and Silva contain Lucho's brilliance on set pieces -

Spoiler: Brilliant header against Real

Spoiler: Another fantastic header

All his goals against Real -

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Good thread so far, so cheers to all involved and particularly Sjor for arguing our case. The only thing I'd really take issue with so far is this:

Figo was a creative influence and even when he wins his duel with Evra and set up your forward, I don't see RVN getting any joy with Stam & Cannavaro

as it understates Ruud's quality for me. Not that Stam/Cannavaro are bad stylistic fits to deal with him, more that Ruud with this calibre of service is a menace against any set of defenders in the pool. His 56 goals and 13 assists in 73 CL games compares very favourably to Eto'os 30 goals and 19 assists in 78 CL games. More surprisingly, Ruud was also statistically better in El Clasicos, scoring 4 in 4 for Real versus 4 in 8 for Eto'o.

 

[Physiocrat]

Good thread so far, so cheers to all involved and particularly Sjor for arguing our case. The only thing I'd really take issue with so far is this:



as it understates Ruud's quality for me. Not that Stam/Cannavaro are bad stylistic fits to deal with him, more that Ruud with this calibre of service is a menace against any set of defenders in the pool. His 56 goals and 13 assists in 73 CL games compares very favourably to Eto'os 30 goals and 19 assists in 78 CL games. More surprisingly, Ruud was also statistically better in El Clasicos, scoring 4 in 4 for Real versus 4 in 8 for Eto'o.

Very true. Target man style strikers are very underrated in drafts apart from MVB. It's assumed that if you have a quality stopper they're nullified whereas a fast striker against a fast defender the advantage is given to the striker.

In this pool the best target man are Batigol, Vieri (although unpicked due to his Seedorf like mates) and RVN. They all had tremendous movement in box so with sufficient service they will score goals.

 

[Gio]

Also the injury happened fairly early in the game, there is still 60 minutes to go and it would be a long 60 minutes for Toure in that position. I wonder if you would reassess your vote @Gio @crappycraperson @Raees @Mciahel Goodman @NoPace @DavidG

I'm still quite split on this one. Toure doesn't have much of a pedigree at centre-half, but he did well there in a couple of huge games in 2009, so it's not a game-changer yet for me.

 

[Moby]

I'm still quite split on this one. Toure doesn't have much of a pedigree at centre-half, but he did well there in a couple of huge games in 2009, so it's not a game-changer yet for me.

Couple of games, still versus seasons upon seasons of world class performances on the biggest stages. How is it not a no-brainer...

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I'm probably going to disappear again soon, but just to address that 1998 CL final point I included in our OP @Tuppet . As I recall it, Zidane started the game very birghtly and was one of the most dangerous players on the pitch, but Redondo exerted the greater influence as the game progressed and Zidane's level dropped. My reason for mentioning it was to dispute any idea that Zidane would just waltz right through Redondo's zone here, as it certainly wasn't the story of the game that night.

 

[Gio]

Couple of games, still versus seasons upon seasons of world class performances on the biggest stages. How is it not a no-brainer...

Because he's being asked to do it for an hour, not for season after season.

 

[Tuppet]

Good thread so far, so cheers to all involved and particularly Sjor for arguing our case. The only thing I'd really take issue with so far is this:



as it understates Ruud's quality for me. Not that Stam/Cannavaro are bad stylistic fits to deal with him, more that Ruud with this calibre of service is a menace against any set of defenders in the pool. His 56 goals and 13 assists in 73 CL games compares very favourably to Eto'os 30 goals and 19 assists in 78 CL games. More surprisingly, Ruud was also statistically better in El Clasicos, scoring 4 in 4 for Real versus 4 in 8 for Eto'o.

Yeah may be its a bit over the top and my intention was to mostly portray that my attack would do better against your defense than vice versa, but I do stand by the general sentiment of that post. Stam & Cannavaro is an absolutely smashing defense against RVN stylistically and I can totally see them shutting him down.

Those numbers don't really tell the whole story, RVN was without a doubt better goal scorer and his stats reflect that, but Eto'o was more than his goal scoring numbers and he is recognized as such by awards such as finishing 3rd in Ballon D'or while the highest RVN finished was 6th. Eto'o won 2 trebles with different teams and a another champions league title. Scoring in 2 CL finals and was man of the match in one of them.

Anyway my point is not that Eto'o is a better striker than RVN, they were generally of similar quality, but more that the defense they are facing, Eto'o has a better chance to score against Silva & Ferrara (before the injury, with Toure I don't see any hope whatsoever) than RVN has against Stam (2 times UEFA defender of the year) and Cannavaro (Ballon D'or winner, WC winner, 2 time serie A defender of the year and his peak form in WC 06 was god like). But its not just their quality in vaccume, I would have been more concerned if say an Henry was playing against them, tricky fast forwards would have been harder to handle.

After the unfortunate Injury its just straight forward. The way I see it if either of us had started the game with Toure even in midfield that would have probably been enough to nudge the game to the other side as he would have been the weakest midfielder on the pitch. In defense its a no brainer.

Alright thats it for me then, heading to bed, it was a great game except for the injury and it was fun discussing it with you guys. Leaving you with probably my favorite Zidane performance (love me some Coldplay as well) -

 

[antohan]

Good thread so far, so cheers to all involved and particularly Sjor for arguing our case. The only thing I'd really take issue with so far is this:

as it understates Ruud's quality for me. Not that Stam/Cannavaro are bad stylistic fits to deal with

If it helps, Ruud is the main reason I voted for you and still sticking to it despite huge question marks on what Eto'o could do to a makeshift Yaya.

But then, I'm biased, I've spent the whole draft shadowing my way to a wanktastic side for Ruud to finish off chances.

Had Joga got through I would have picked Pires and Boban and finally been ready for this:

Subs: Ayala, Torricelli, Srna, Petrescu, Essien, McManaman, Kewell, Moller, RvP

Yes, I know, I have players for a more robust side there, but I'm only shadowwanking anyway. Imagine Ruud with all that selfless service

 

[antohan]

Because he's being asked to do it for an hour, not for season after season.

Agreed, I don't get the massive overreactions to injuries. They happen all the time and teams cope with them. I know fine margins yadda yadda, but it's a team effort.