Strikers, Wingers, and Defenders

[devilish]

What is Strootman's claim to fame? Born Dutch?

He had a decent half a season in the Italian league, which let's be honest has gone down dramatically in quality. The guy who replaced him, the one with the stupid hair-do and difficult to spell name, has fitted in seamlessly and is doing as well as he did. I am scared to sign any player with such a debilitating injury. Especially for our club where players get injured more than usual.

Strootman is an excellent player who knows LVG philosophy inside out. You can't really compare him with the long ball merchant whose only in the team because we need some physical presence in it.

Schneiderlin may be able to do an equally good job for a fraction of the fee. However we all know that managers like to work with their own men. Fellaini is proof of that.

 

[Walrus]

I cant see us having a massive summer again.

GK is sorted unless De Gea leaves.

Defence - a versatile FB who can cover either side would be useful. Coleman would still be first choice (Rafael could then cover RB and LB), Santon is another decent shout. I would see Young and Valencia sold as a result.
At CB we are overstocked (althouh due to injuries it doesnt seem that way). We have Evans, Jones, Smalling, Rojo, McNair and Blackett. At least one of those needs to go, more likely two (I think Evans may be moved on, and one of the Blackett/McNair depending on how the season goes for them). We can then look to buy in an experienced, reliable CB like we should have done last summer (someone like a Hummels or Vermaelen).

Midfield is mostly OK (been a while since I could say that...). Cleverley wont return but we have Blind, Herrera, Fellaini and Di Maria - also others who can fill in such as Carrick, Rooney and Mata.
If we strengthen here then for me it should be a prospect (although we do have Powell) for the future.

Attacking Midfield/Wings is dependant on what system we are going to play. We have Rooney, Mata, ADM, Januzaj and potentially Nani coming back, which again is a good set of options.

Up front is an interesting area and also dependant on whether we plan to play with one or two strikers. I dont think we need both RVP and Falcao, so if we sign Falcao then RVP should be moved on - frankly this seems a very expensive option though as RVP wont command a high fee at his age.
We then have Rooney and Wilson - although there may be a possibility of bringing Hernandez back next season, it all depends.


Basically, unless we are having another clearout (not just the likes of Anderson - actual players who are playing I am talking about), we shouldnt be buying in half a dozen players. The squad has depth and has quality, what it now needs is time to gel together. I would hope and expect our dealings next summer to be far more about quality than quantity - getting the likes of a Coleman for example, would be great business.

People bemoan the likes of Jones and Smalling on here constantly, but then as replacements you suggest young and unproven players who could very easily turn out to be worse than what we have got. Rojo was brought in and is by and large a similar prospect to what we already had/have, people were heralding him as a world class CB but in fact he has looked for me weaker than our previous players;
If we buy, we need to buy quality - a proper world class CB would add something to the squad, another Rojo would not however.

 

[Roboc7]

I cant see us having a massive summer again.

GK is sorted unless De Gea leaves.

Defence - a versatile FB who can cover either side would be useful. Coleman would still be first choice (Rafael could then cover RB and LB), Santon is another decent shout. I would see Young and Valencia sold as a result.
At CB we are overstocked (althouh due to injuries it doesnt seem that way). We have Evans, Jones, Smalling, Rojo, McNair and Blackett. At least one of those needs to go, more likely two (I think Evans may be moved on, and one of the Blackett/McNair depending on how the season goes for them). We can then look to buy in an experienced, reliable CB like we should have done last summer (someone like a Hummels or Vermaelen).

Midfield is mostly OK (been a while since I could say that...). Cleverley wont return but we have Blind, Herrera, Fellaini and Di Maria - also others who can fill in such as Carrick, Rooney and Mata.
If we strengthen here then for me it should be a prospect (although we do have Powell) for the future.

Attacking Midfield/Wings is dependant on what system we are going to play. We have Rooney, Mata, ADM, Januzaj and potentially Nani coming back, which again is a good set of options.

Up front is an interesting area and also dependant on whether we plan to play with one or two strikers. I dont think we need both RVP and Falcao, so if we sign Falcao then RVP should be moved on - frankly this seems a very expensive option though as RVP wont command a high fee at his age.
We then have Rooney and Wilson - although there may be a possibility of bringing Hernandez back next season, it all depends.


Basically, unless we are having another clearout (not just the likes of Anderson - actual players who are playing I am talking about), we shouldnt be buying in half a dozen players. The squad has depth and has quality, what it now needs is time to gel together. I would hope and expect our dealings next summer to be far more about quality than quantity - getting the likes of a Coleman for example, would be great business.

People bemoan the likes of Jones and Smalling on here constantly, but then as replacements you suggest young and unproven players who could very easily turn out to be worse than what we have got. Rojo was brought in and is by and large a similar prospect to what we already had/have, people were heralding him as a world class CB but in fact he has looked for me weaker than our previous players;
If we buy, we need to buy quality - a proper world class CB would add something to the squad, another Rojo would not however.

When you write names down it all looks promising or like we have good depth but in reality a lot of players hardly play due to injuries and no matter what formation we field or how long people get to gel there isn’t a coherent and well balanced line up, too many players are too similar and one paced. LVG is going to want to shape the team to play how he wants and I don’t think he can do that if he can’t rely on people to be fit and doesn’t have the type of players he wants.

I expect a clear out once again and 6-7 additions to try and address the lack of balance in our midfield and attack and the fact we constantly have to field a makeshift defence. I think another big clearout is inevitable and can easily see at least half of the following all being allowed to leave permanently:

Nani
Zaha
Powell
M Keane
Hernandez
Henriquez
Cleverley
Anderson
Fletcher
Young
Mata
Evans
Jones
RVP
Falcao
Lindegaard

 

[Walrus]

When you write names down it all looks promising or like we have good depth but in reality a lot of players hardly play due to injuries and no matter what formation we field or how long people get to gel there isn’t a coherent and well balanced line up, too many players are too similar and one paced. LVG is going to want to shape the team to play how he wants and I don’t think he can do that if he can’t rely on people to be fit and doesn’t have the type of players he wants.

I expect a clear out once again and 6-7 additions to try and address the lack of balance in our midfield and attack and the fact we constantly have to field a makeshift defence. I think another big clearout is inevitable and can easily see at least half of the following all being allowed to leave permanently:

Nani
Zaha
Powell
M Keane
Hernandez
Henriquez
Cleverley
Anderson
Fletcher
Young
Mata
Evans
Jones
RVP
Falcao
Lindegaard

Yup cant really argue with any of that list - even without most of them I would say we still have a fairly large squad though:

GK: De Gea, Johnstone, Amos (is he still at the club?)
Def: Rafael, Valencia, Smalling, Rojo, McNair, Blackett, Shaw (Vermijl & James?)
Mid: Carrick, Blind, Fellaini, Herrera, Di Maria, Januzaj (Lingard?)
Att: Rooney, Wilson

Thats a full team & bench before including the youngsters in brackets - and that is on the assumption that we have already ditched the 16(!) players on your list.
Our squad is huge. Even if we have some sort of clearout I cant see us signing more than 2-3 players next summer. Again for me it is definitely a case of quality over quantity - if we got someone like Coleman or Gundogan that it would be far more valuable than bringing in another half a dozen journeymen who we hope can become the next big thing.

 

[Roboc7]

Yup cant really argue with any of that list - even without most of them I would say we still have a fairly large squad though:

GK: De Gea, Johnstone, Amos (is he still at the club?)
Def: Rafael, Valencia, Smalling, Rojo, McNair, Blackett, Shaw (Vermijl & James?)
Mid: Carrick, Blind, Fellaini, Herrera, Di Maria, Januzaj (Lingard?)
Att: Rooney, Wilson

Thats a full team & bench before including the youngsters in brackets - and that is on the assumption that we have already ditched the 16(!) players on your list.
Our squad is huge. Even if we have some sort of clearout I cant see us signing more than 2-3 players next summer. Again for me it is definitely a case of quality over quantity - if we got someone like Coleman or Gundogan that it would be far more valuable than bringing in another half a dozen journeymen who we hope can become the next big thing.

We have a big squad but you can easily fit a RB, CB or 2 a winger, striker and another wide player/attacking midfielder into that squad if we are back in the Champions League, Blackett and McNair aren't first team players yet and Vermijl, James and Lingard could also be let go on loan or permanently. The emphasis should be on quality but I think we are going to need more than just 2 or 3 players if we want to get anywhere near Chelsea as they are going to take some stopping over next 2-3 years.

 

[Walrus]

We have a big squad but you can easily fit a RB, CB or 2 a winger, striker and another wide player/attacking midfielder into that squad if we are back in the Champions League, Blackett and McNair aren't first team players yet and Vermijl, James and Lingard could also be let go on loan or permanently. The emphasis should be on quality but I think we are going to need more than just 2 or 3 players if we want to get anywhere near Chelsea as they are going to take some stopping over next 2-3 years.

Again that list is assuming 16 departures!

 

[Insanity]

Strootman is an excellent player who knows LVG philosophy inside out. You can't really compare him with the long ball merchant whose only in the team because we need some physical presence in it.

Schneiderlin may be able to do an equally good job for a fraction of the fee. However we all know that managers like to work with their own men. Fellaini is proof of that.

I'll take your word for it on Strootman's quality as a player. The knee injury still worries me.
I was actually talking about the player who replaced him at Roma. Names starts with a 'N'.

Schneiderlin would be prefect with an ability to play both as a box to box or as a holding player. Or may be Moutinho if we are looking for a deep lying playmaker.

 

[Pexbo]

I'll take your word for it on Strootman's quality as a player. The knee injury still worries me.
I was actually talking about the player who replaced him at Roma. Names starts with a 'N'.

Schneiderlin would be prefect with an ability to play both as a box to box or as a holding player. Or may be Moutinho if we are looking for a deep lying playmaker.

Naingollen or however you spell it? I think he was at Roma before Strootman.

 

[Invictus]

Naingollen or however you spell it? I think he was at Roma before Strootman.

Naw. They brought him on loan in Jan 2014 from Cagliari and the move was made permanent this summer.

 

[Roboc7]

Again that list is assuming 16 departures!

In the squad list you posted there are only about 12 players we need to register in the Premier League squad so room for 5-6 new signings plus 4-5 to stay from the 16 players I posted, a squad of 21-25 supplemented by u21 players like Wilson and McNair is how I would expect the squad to look if we are back in the Champions League.

However we line up next year we are going to need to bring in more than just 2-3 players between now and then because we don’t have right players in our starting eleven for some formations let alone having the player to rotate and back them up. If we play 4-3-3 we will need more midfielders and wingers, 3-5-2, more CB’s and wing backs etc.

 

[Jacob]

Depay, Hummels, Strootman </thread>

What a coincidence, two of your preferred signings are Dutch. I don't think we should limit ourselves to Dutch players just because of van Gaal.

If I got to pick three signings that are completely unrealistic in my view, I would say: Coleman, Varane, and Reus.

Just think of this:

DDG
COLEMAN-------VARANE------McNAIR-------SHAW
CARRICK
HERRERA----------------DI MARIA
REUS
ROONEY------------WILSON​

 

[Walrus]

In the squad list you posted there are only about 12 players we need to register in the Premier League squad so room for 5-6 new signings plus 4-5 to stay from the 16 players I posted, a squad of 21-25 supplemented by u21 players like Wilson and McNair is how I would expect the squad to look if we are back in the Champions League.

However we line up next year we are going to need to bring in more than just 2-3 players between now and then because we don’t have right players in our starting eleven for some formations let alone having the player to rotate and back them up. If we play 4-3-3 we will need more midfielders and wingers, 3-5-2, more CB’s and wing backs etc.

I disagree with the bolded part - LVG has a track record of bringing young players through. If you count all of the players from the previous lists we have 33 in our squad - that is a huge amount when you look at teams like Chelsea and Barca who for the most part have a settled XI and then their rotation options.

Any players we bring in should be ones going straight into the first team as first choice - hence the quality over quantity statement - we certainly dont need to add strength in depth and even if we clear out 6-10 players, we wont need to bring anything like that many back in.

 

[Roboc7]

I disagree with the bolded part - LVG has a track record of bringing young players through. If you count all of the players from the previous lists we have 33 in our squad - that is a huge amount when you look at teams like Chelsea and Barca who for the most part have a settled XI and then their rotation options.

Any players we bring in should be ones going straight into the first team as first choice - hence the quality over quantity statement - we certainly dont need to add strength in depth and even if we clear out 6-10 players, we wont need to bring anything like that many back in.

He does bring through youngsters but those leagues aren’t as competitive and he has been fortunate to preside over clubs that have produced exceptional talent, if he has to turn to the likes of Lingard, Blackett, McNair and James then I don’t see us bridging the gap, the calibre of players produced in England doesn’t compare to Germany and Spain.

If we want to win the league we need quantity and quality, there is no way you can add a RB and a midfielder to this squad and then complete for the title, to balance the squad is going to take 2-3 players alone, then another 2-3 to try and solve the constant injuries. Making just 2 signings will leave us either with a poorly balanced squad, dependent on injury prone players, unproven youngsters or having to rely on loan players coming back none of whom have demonstrated they can perform to the required level consistently.

Chelsea do have a small squad of 20-21 first team players and lots of young talent, but they have an exceptional record with injuries and have been lucky, we have numerous players who are regularly injured so I don’t see that being enough.

 

[khoazany]

He does bring through youngsters but those leagues aren’t as competitive and he has been fortunate to preside over clubs that have produced exceptional talent, if he has to turn to the likes of Lingard, Blackett, McNair and James then I don’t see us bridging the gap, the calibre of players produced in England doesn’t compare to Germany and Spain.

Sorry but we're talking about United not England here and we're currently having the best U21s crop coming through in many years.Wilson,Pereira,McNair,Thorpe,Pearson,Harrop,Rothwell,Janko etc all have real potential.

I do agree that if we're going to offload a lot of senior players than we must sign more than just a few to strengthen the squad both in quantity and quality.That doesn't mean ignore players coming through the academy as "they're only U21s player!" and only turn on them during injury crisis.

 

[Roboc7]

Sorry but we're talking about United not England here and we're currently having the best U21s crop coming through in many years.Wilson,Pereira,McNair,Thorpe,Pearson,Harrop,Rothwell,Janko etc all have real potential.

I do agree that if we're going to offload a lot of senior players than we must sign more than just a few to strengthen the squad both in quantity and quality.

German and Spanish teams are producing higher calibre players compared to English teams, no argument about it, our academy produces good players but we aren't producing the same quality as the likes of Bayern because exceptional English (British) players are few and far between compared to those countries.

Of all those players Wilson is the only one involved in the first team on merit, the only other ones getting a chance are only playing because of injuries, if anyone had really stood out then I think they would be playing. There is potential there but there is every year rarely does it amount to more than that at Utd though and it's too early to gamble on those players, in reality we would be lucky if 1-2 become first team players.

 

[khoazany]

German and Spanish teams are producing higher calibre players compared to English teams, no argument about it, our academy produces good players but we aren't producing the same quality as the likes of Bayern because exceptional English (British) players are few and far between compared to those countries.

Of all those players Wilson is the only one involved in the first team on merit, the only other ones getting a chance are only playing because of injuries, if anyone had really stood out then I think they would be playing. There is potential there but there is every year rarely does it amount to more than that at Utd though and it's too early to gamble on those players, in reality we would be lucky if 1-2 become first team players.

It is much more complicated than you imagine.Bayern was not that good as an academy if you really pay attention to youth football, there are many better in German.I'm not a fan of giving result at youth football to support my argument but their U19s were demolished by City U19s 0-6 few days ago.They have some good talents though as you would expect and most of them are recruited from abroad/other academies.

Players we are producing has not much thing to do with the general "scene" of English football though again if you pay attention to youth football England are producing better talents than the past in general (I'm not British before you talk about being biased).Pearson and co didn't play so far partly because of we have more than enough depth in midfield and not many injuries there so far.Most of them will be 20-22 next season if we don't give chances then when will they get the chances?Of course not every of them will make it but that doesn't mean ignore their position and value in the squad and I'm sure LVG won't.

 

[khoazany]

In a related point to this topic Fletcher is wanted by Hull and I wouldn't be surprise if we offload him this January.Whether we will sign a replacement in Jan is arguable with Pereira's emergence and let's be honest Fletcher didn't have much of a role so far.Definitely need a new CM next season though with Carrick also aging and potential CL football.

 

[Roboc7]

It is much more complicated than you imagine.Bayern was not that good as an academy if you really pay attention to youth football, there are many better in German.I'm not a fan of giving result at youth football to support my argument but their U19s were demolished by City U19s 0-6 few days ago.They have some good talents though as you would expect and most of them are recruited from abroad/other academies.

Players we are producing has not much thing to do with the general "scene" of English football though again if you pay attention to youth football England are producing better talents than the past in general (I'm not British before you talk about being biased).Pearson and co didn't play so far partly because of we have more than enough depth in midfield and not many injuries there so far.Most of them will be 20-22 next season if we don't give chances then when will they get the chances?Of course not every of them will make it but that doesn't mean ignore their position and value in the squad and I'm sure LVG won't.

This has nothing to do with the thread but I have to respond becasue I think you are way off the mark and pretty patronising considering your flawed argument. To be honest is doesn't matter who has the best academy in Germany what matters is German players are of a higher quality and that is point I was making.

The pool of talent in Germany, Spain and France is much higher and there is less competition to sign them up. There are also restrictions in how long players can be coached in this country and no B or feeder teams where players can be loaned for experience and have their careers supervised by the club rather than being loaned out and often end up not playing. There is also the luxury of playing in leagues that are much less competitive and the risk of blooding youngsters is a lot less. Also I though you wanted to talk about Utd so I don't what City winning 6-0 proves.

Consequently those countries produce players of a higher calibre who are playing for the best club and national sides, British teams are not producing those players and as our academy players are mostly British it makes it much harder to produce players of the required quality. When was the last time Utd produced a top class British player? When did Bayern last produce a top German, Barca a top Spaniard or Ajax a top Dutch player? It has everything to do with the English scene because we are in England and that’s where the majority of our academy players are from.

I don’t understand the point about not enough depth, Anderson and Fletcher have both been used in the league this season so that implies LVG rated them above the youngsters, if he thought players like Pearson were good enough they would play but he isn’t going to play people for the sake of it. Like it or not the talent just isn’t there and playing them just to give them a chance is a risk no manager will take.

I don’t see how we have an exceptional group of youngsters, potential yes but every top club in England will say the same and the majority won’t even end up playing in the Premier League let alone for the first teams at the top sides. It’s a misconception LVG will put faith in youth just because he has some decent prospects, he will pick players who are very good or because he is forced to, I don’t see him experimenting because he is here to win trophies. Take Tom Thorpe he is behing 6 other CB's and 2 midfielders to play in his position, at this moment in time he is probably a Championship player, you would probably play him to see how good, in an ideal world great but he is but he is more likely to fail than succeed and when your job and reputation rests on it you are more likely to put your faith in a new signing because that is the reality of first team football at the highest level.

 

[khoazany]

This has nothing to do with the thread but I have to respond becasue I think you are way off the mark and pretty patronising considering your flawed argument. To be honest is doesn't matter who has the best academy in Germany what matters is German players are of a higher quality and that is point I was making.

The pool of talent in Germany, Spain and France is much higher and there is less competition to sign them up. There are also restrictions in how long players can be coached in this country and no B or feeder teams where players can be loaned for experience and have their careers supervised by the club rather than being loaned out and often end up not playing. There is also the luxury of playing in leagues that are much less competitive and the risk of blooding youngsters is a lot less. Also I though you wanted to talk about Utd so I don't what City winning 6-0 proves.

Consequently those countries produce players of a higher calibre who are playing for the best club and national sides, British teams are not producing those players and as our academy players are mostly British it makes it much harder to produce players of the required quality. When was the last time Utd produced a top class British player? When did Bayern last produce a top German, Barca a top Spaniard or Ajax a top Dutch player? It has everything to do with the English scene because we are in England and that’s where the majority of our academy players are from.

I don’t understand the point about not enough depth, Anderson and Fletcher have both been used in the league this season so that implies LVG rated them above the youngsters, if he thought players like Pearson were good enough they would play but he isn’t going to play people for the sake of it. Like it or not the talent just isn’t there and playing them just to give them a chance is a risk no manager will take.

I don’t see how we have an exceptional group of youngsters, potential yes but every top club in England will say the same and the majority won’t even end up playing in the Premier League let alone for the first teams at the top sides. It’s a misconception LVG will put faith in youth just because he has some decent prospects, he will pick players who are very good or because he is forced to, I don’t see him experimenting because he is here to win trophies. Take Tom Thorpe he is behing 6 other CB's and 2 midfielders to play in his position, at this moment in time he is probably a Championship player, you would probably play him to see how good, in an ideal world great but he is but he is more likely to fail than succeed and when your job and reputation rests on it you are more likely to put your faith in a new signing because that is the reality of first team football at the highest level.

City is a British academy and majority of that side is English.My point is that Bayern academy isn't that better than the like of ours City.When LVG was in Bayern Badstuber and Muller weren't even rated as highly as Wilson or Pereira at us now but LVG see something in them and give them the opportunities to shine.The restriction in how long players can be coached in England has already been removed.Seriously you need to research a bit about how the youth football landscape in England is changing instead of stating the common sense that is not necessarily correct anymore.

Agree that the pressure of winning trophies is need to be considered but I'm not talking about going all out youth.I'm talking about some of them will be a more important part in the LVG plan than you would think.Your original post ignored all of them.

Just one fact.Anderson was behind Pereira in the pecking order currently even when he was fit.Promoting youth players is a process so it's understandable why the likes of Fletcher still playing ahead of let's say Pereira at the moment.Next season would be a different story so it's too soon to just say that they won't be ready or so.Going by this season alone LVG didn't bought in a 5th centre back,4th striker or any real back up RB and LB (Rojo can play there but he's already part of the 4 CBs) so although injuries played a part it's not really he was totally "forced" to play the youngsters.He did leave some space for them to grasp the chance.

 

[Kounan]

I cant see us having a massive summer again.

GK is sorted unless De Gea leaves.

Defence - a versatile FB who can cover either side would be useful. Coleman would still be first choice (Rafael could then cover RB and LB), Santon is another decent shout. I would see Young and Valencia sold as a result.
At CB we are overstocked (althouh due to injuries it doesnt seem that way). We have Evans, Jones, Smalling, Rojo, McNair and Blackett. At least one of those needs to go, more likely two (I think Evans may be moved on, and one of the Blackett/McNair depending on how the season goes for them). We can then look to buy in an experienced, reliable CB like we should have done last summer (someone like a Hummels or Vermaelen).

I agree that we maybe will need an experience CB (depends of this season), but that you mention Hummels and Vermaelen, I don't get. Vermaelen didn't play for Barcelona yet and also had a surgery now and will be missing for the next 3 months. Plus, he was in horrible form in last 2 years.

Hummels also, injured very often, bad form this year, not much better last year, so, and would cost a fortune.

Why these two?

 

[Raoul]

What a coincidence, two of your preferred signings are Dutch. I don't think we should limit ourselves to Dutch players just because of van Gaal.

If I got to pick three signings that are completely unrealistic in my view, I would say: Coleman, Varane, and Reus.

Just think of this:

DDG
COLEMAN-------VARANE------McNAIR-------SHAW
CARRICK
HERRERA----------------DI MARIA
REUS
ROONEY------------WILSON​

Strootman is widely considered a high probability, which is why I included him. Depay is a breakout player who is ready for a big club. Obviously having coached both, Van Gaal doesn't need to do much scouting there.

We don't need Reus as we already have Mata, nor Coleman as we already have Rafael. We do need a top CB, CM, and with RvP on the wane and Falcao not a long term solution, we will need a top striker at some point.

 

[Roboc7]

City is a British academy and majority of that side is English.My point is that Bayern academy isn't that better than the like of ours City.When LVG was in Bayern Badstuber and Muller weren't even rated as highly as Wilson or Pereira at us now but LVG see something in them and give them the opportunities to shine.The restriction in how long players can be coached in England has already been removed.Seriously you need to research a bit about how the youth football landscape in England is changing instead of stating the common sense that is not necessarily correct anymore.

Agree that the pressure of winning trophies is need to be considered but I'm not talking about going all out youth.I'm talking about some of them will be a more important part in the LVG plan than you would think.Your original post ignored all of them.

Just one fact.Anderson was behind Pereira in the pecking order currently even when he was fit.Promoting youth players is a process so it's understandable why the likes of Fletcher still playing ahead of let's say Pereira at the moment.Next season would be a different story so it's too soon to just say that they won't be ready or so.Going by this season alone LVG didn't bought in a 5th centre back,4th striker or any real back up RB and LB (Rojo can play there but he's already part of the 4 CBs) so it's not really he was totally "forced" to play the youngsters.He did leave some space for them to grasp the chance.

Once again very patronising and completely missing the point, whether the coaching rules have been amended to bring them on a par with Spain or not the current players will have been subjected to the old system so that has no relevance, neither does the changing landscape because we are talking about the here and now and there is no proof of how successful those changes will be or how the landscape in other countries will evolve in the meantime.

You are also completely ignoring the point about the differences in the leagues which is very relevant and to be honest I think you are clearly someone who has an idealistic view of youth football given how highly you regard your opinion but do not take into consideration the wider picture.

The only way players will get a chance is by being exceptionally talented, an injury crisis or by going on loan and impressing, their role will be to supplement a squad of 20 odd first team players or be sent on loan. It doesn't matter who the manager is the idea of playing people to see how good they are becasuse how else will you know is never going to be used at Utd becasue of the resources, rewards and risks involved.

To be honest I am ignoring all of them at this point, other than Wilson I don't see any of the group you mentioned making 40-50 Premier League appearances for Utd over the next two seasons and some won't even make 4 or 5 because that is the reality of playing in such a competitive league. Let's call it quits now because it has nothing to do with the thread, we'll just see how it pans out but 2 years from now most of the players you mentioned probably won't be at the club or will be forgotten in the reserves and you will have a new group of names with the same argument.

 

[khoazany]

Once again very patronising and completely missing the point, whether the coaching rules have been amended to bring them on a par with Spain or not the current players will have been subjected to the old system so that has no relevance, neither does the changing landscape because we are talking about the here and now and there is no proof of how successful those changes will be or how the landscape in other countries will evolve in the meantime.

You are also completely ignoring the point about the differences in the leagues which is very relevant and to be honest I think you are clearly someone who has an idealistic view of youth football given how highly you regard your opinion but do not take into consideration the wider picture.

The only way players will get a chance is by being exceptionally talented, an injury crisis or by going on loan and impressing, their role will be to supplement a squad of 20 odd first team players or be sent on loan. It doesn't matter who the manager is the idea of playing people to see how good they are becasuse how else will you know is never going to be used at Utd becasue of the resources, rewards and risks involved.

To be honest I am ignoring all of them at this point, other than Wilson I don't see any of the group you mentioned making 40-50 Premier League appearances for Utd over the next two seasons and some won't even make 4 or 5 because that is the reality of playing in such a competitive league. Let's call it quits now because it has nothing to do with the thread, we'll just see how it pans out but 2 years from now most of the players you mentioned probably won't be at the club or will be forgotten in the reserves and you will have a new group of names with the same argument.

The change in English football I'm talking about is just a supplement point to counter your outdated idea that youth football in England is totally shit compared to their peers.You also made a clear fallacy that because we're a club in a country that the quality of youngster on average are lesser than Spain or Germany therefore our youngsters must also not be good enough.There's a big change in how our academy is operated around more than 10 years ago and we're starting to grasp the fruit.I won't talk more about this because this can only be proven in the next few years and everything I'm talking right now will always appear to be idealistic to you (plus this remind me of Morrison the cnut).

Well I agree that let's just wait and see but I think you really should watch more of them before making such an ignorant judgement.To be honest I don't think half of the names I just list will make it but I mostly bring them up to remind people about some alternative options instead of going galaticos all over and ignore our tradition.

 

[Roboc7]

The change in English football I'm talking about is just a supplement point to counter your outdated idea that youth football in England is totally shit compared to their peers.You also made a clear fallacy that because we're a club in a country that the quality of youngster on average are lesser than Spain or Germany therefore our youngsters must also not be good enough.There's a big change in how our academy is operated around more than 10 years ago and we're starting to grasp the fruit.

Well I agree that let's just wait and see but to be honest I think you really should watch more of them before making such an ignorant judgement.

Your argument is so idealistic and flawed that I think it's great, and based entirely on the future rather than here and now.

Good point about watching them more, you clearly are the expert on youth so I bow to that and take it on board may I suggest leaving your youth football bubble and seeing how the real world and law of averages works and then you might have more realistic expectations and a better understanding of first team football.

 

[khoazany]

Your argument is so idealistic and flawed that I think it's great, and based entirely on the future rather than here and now.

Good point about watching them more, you clearly are the expert on youth so I bow to that and take it on board may I suggest leaving your youth football bubble and seeing how the real world and law of averages works and then you might have more realistic expectations and a better understanding of first team football.

To be honest I already clearly stated that I'm not suggesting going all out youth so I'm not sure who is missing the point here.

Well believe it or not I did watch first team football and I did know how challenging it is to make it at that level.However LVG's approach plus the quality of the current crops make me believe that we will have more youngsters making the grade than usual.

I guess we should just stop here.No personal attack on you though just a clear difference in our perspectives.

 

[Walrus]

I agree that we maybe will need an experience CB (depends of this season), but that you mention Hummels and Vermaelen, I don't get. Vermaelen didn't play for Barcelona yet and also had a surgery now and will be missing for the next 3 months. Plus, he was in horrible form in last 2 years.

Hummels also, injured very often, bad form this year, not much better last year, so, and would cost a fortune.

Why these two?

I had actually completely forgotten that Vermaelen went to Barca.

There is a bit of a lack of top CBs who might be available at the moment, those were two of the better ones I could think of off the top of my head - but my point was mainly the principle, that we should have bought proven experience, reliability, consistency and quality - not another "could raise his game and become World Class in a few years" which is how I see Rojo.

 

[Walrus]

He does bring through youngsters but those leagues aren’t as competitive and he has been fortunate to preside over clubs that have produced exceptional talent, if he has to turn to the likes of Lingard, Blackett, McNair and James then I don’t see us bridging the gap, the calibre of players produced in England doesn’t compare to Germany and Spain.

If we want to win the league we need quantity and quality, there is no way you can add a RB and a midfielder to this squad and then complete for the title, to balance the squad is going to take 2-3 players alone, then another 2-3 to try and solve the constant injuries. Making just 2 signings will leave us either with a poorly balanced squad, dependent on injury prone players, unproven youngsters or having to rely on loan players coming back none of whom have demonstrated they can perform to the required level consistently.

Chelsea do have a small squad of 20-21 first team players and lots of young talent, but they have an exceptional record with injuries and have been lucky, we have numerous players who are regularly injured so I don’t see that being enough.

I disagree with the bolded parts again - if we signed say Coleman and someone like a Kroos/Modric/Pogba for midfield then the squad would be in excellent shape, assuming not ALL of 16 players listed previously were moved on.
We would have something like the following as a first team squad, assuming a few departures:

GK: De Gea, Lindegaard, Johnstone
FB: Coleman, Rafael, Shaw, Valencia
CB: Jones, Smalling, Rojo, Blackett, McNair
CM: Blind, Pogba, Herrera, Fellaini
AM/Wings: Januzaj, Nani, Di Maria, Mata
ST: Rooney, Hernandez, RVP, Wilson

Only position I would argue would still strengthening is bringing in an experienced CB - that would make 3 signings and as far as I am concerned, that is a very good squad.

If LVG feels that he cannot trust players due to injuries, then he needs to get rid of them, not fill the squad so that we end up with 50 players and expect to only have half of them available at any given time.

 

[khoazany]

I disagree with the bolded parts again - if we signed say Coleman and someone like a Kroos/Modric/Pogba for midfield then the squad would be in excellent shape, assuming not ALL of 16 players listed previously were moved on.
We would have something like the following as a first team squad, assuming a few departures:

GK: De Gea, Lindegaard, Johnstone
FB: Coleman, Rafael, Shaw, Valencia
CB: Jones, Smalling, Rojo, Blackett, McNair
CM: Blind, Pogba, Herrera, Fellaini
AM/Wings: Januzaj, Nani, Di Maria, Mata
ST: Rooney, Hernandez, RVP, Wilson

Only position I would argue would still strengthening is bringing in an experienced CB - that would make 3 signings and as far as I am concerned, that is a very good squad.

If LVG feels that he cannot trust players due to injuries, then he needs to get rid of them, not fill the squad so that we end up with 50 players and expect to only have half of them available at any given time.

I argued against him just now but I have to disagree a bit with you here.4 CMs aren't enough if we're back to CL (though I believe Pereira would ready to step up).Also I agree with him that RVP should be moved on which left one more spot.

 

[Walrus]

I argued against him just now but I have to disagree a bit with you here.4 CMs aren't enough if we're back to CL (though I believe Pereira would ready to step up).Also I agree with him that RVP should be moved on which left one more spot.

I agree that RVP should be moved on as well.
With CM bare in mind that I listed Di Maria as a winger but he could also play CM, and we are assuming that Fletcher, Carrick, Cleverley and Anderson have all moved on.

 

[Roboc7]

To be honest I already clearly stated that I'm not suggesting going all out youth so I'm not sure who is missing the point here.

Well believe it or not I did watch first team football and I did know how challenging it is to make it at that level.However LVG's approach plus the quality of the current crops make me believe that we will have more youngsters making the grade than usual.

I guess we should just stop here.No personal attack on you though just a clear difference in our perspectives.

I know what you stated but the idea more people will get a go to see how good they are is unlikely to happen at this club, my view is the more likely outcome, no way of knowing who is correct but your arrogance and tendency to be patronising is misplaced considering your view. I am a fan of our academy but what you are saying people have and will be saying for years but in reality it rarely happens.

I also don't know what you have read or seen to give you this idea england is on the cusp of something great, I would suggest you come to england watch kids playing on massive pitches, with massive goals, the big kid punting it forward for the fast kid to run through on goal, the lack of coaches etc and the emphasis on winning rather than development at grassroots level. Then go watch how kids in other countries are taught on smaller pitches, taught technique, how to pass, how to move etc etc. You will quickly see how far behind we really are, how much talent slips through the net, how we are only starting to do things other countries have done for decades, how by the time we copy one successful model a better one has emerged.

 

[Roboc7]

I disagree with the bolded parts again - if we signed say Coleman and someone like a Kroos/Modric/Pogba for midfield then the squad would be in excellent shape, assuming not ALL of 16 players listed previously were moved on.
We would have something like the following as a first team squad, assuming a few departures:

GK: De Gea, Lindegaard, Johnstone
FB: Coleman, Rafael, Shaw, Valencia
CB: Jones, Smalling, Rojo, Blackett, McNair
CM: Blind, Pogba, Herrera, Fellaini
AM/Wings: Januzaj, Nani, Di Maria, Mata
ST: Rooney, Hernandez, RVP, Wilson

Only position I would argue would still strengthening is bringing in an experienced CB - that would make 3 signings and as far as I am concerned, that is a very good squad.

If LVG feels that he cannot trust players due to injuries, then he needs to get rid of them, not fill the squad so that we end up with 50 players and expect to only have half of them available at any given time.

I don't think that squad is good enough and I still don't see three signings as enough as you say you need one CB but I would say 2 because 2 of the 5 are injury prone and the other 2 aren't good enough yet, would add carrick in midfield would also love pogba to sign but it's likely to be someone else instead. I think Mata will go and not sure if Nani will come back so that's 1-2 new players and I don't see Hernandez coming back and if RVP stays it's not as a starter so 1 new signing there. So anywhere from 4-7 players would have to be brought in to solve the injury problems and lack of quality.

Also if he ships players out because of injuries he has to get more in so we either put faith in players we know are injury prone and hope they stay fit or you need more signings tha was point I was making that it's 2-3 to address the quality and balance and 2-3 to address the injuries. If people weren't so injury prone we could get away with less signings. It I m tired of watching us go from one injury crisis to another and I don't see why it will change suddenly.

 

[Walrus]

I don't think that squad is good enough and I still don't see three signings as enough as you say you need one CB but I would say 2 because 2 of the 5 are injury prone and the other 2 aren't good enough yet, would add carrick in midfield would also love pogba to sign but it's likely to be someone else instead. I think Mata will go and not sure if Nani will come back so that's 1-2 new players and I don't see Hernandez coming back and if RVP stays it's not as a starter so 1 new signing there. So anywhere from 4-7 players would have to be brought in to solve the injury problems and lack of quality.

Also if he ships players out because of injuries he has to get more in so we either put faith in players we know are injury prone and hope they stay fit or you need more signings tha was point I was making that it's 2-3 to address the quality and balance and 2-3 to address the injuries. If people weren't so injury prone we could get away with less signings. It I m tired of watching us go from one injury crisis to another and I don't see why it will change suddenly.

Well I think we have reached an impassé and will have to agree to disagree.

 

[DarkXaero]

I think before we make any major transfers, we need to decide on what is our system/formation going forward. This season, we started off with 3-5-2, then moved to 4-4-2 Diamond, then we played 4-3-3 (with variations), and now we're back to 3-5-2. We've shown very little continuity in our formations, and I think it's very important to decide what is our best formation going forward. As far as I can tell, it's certainly not 3-5-2.

Still though, there are some signings that have to be made regardless of what direction we're going in. We do need a rightback for cover, or as a starter (to replace Rafael). While we have a lot of CBs right now, most of them aren't good enough for us. So we could certainly use a quality CB. Signings for other positions however, are up for debate, because we don't know what system we'll play in the future.

 

[Kounan]

I had actually completely forgotten that Vermaelen went to Barca.

There is a bit of a lack of top CBs who might be available at the moment, those were two of the better ones I could think of off the top of my head - but my point was mainly the principle, that we should have bought proven experience, reliability, consistency and quality - not another "could raise his game and become World Class in a few years" which is how I see Rojo.

OK, I do actually agree with that.

 

[Kakeru]

We don't need Reus as we already have Mata, nor Coleman as we already have Rafael. We do need a top CB, CM, and with RvP on the wane and Falcao not a long term solution, we will need a top striker at some point.

I don't have any issues with looking for new CBs and new forwards, but I think you underestimate our needs for a RB as much as you seriously underestimate Reus.

If Falcao and RVP are not long term solutions, I don't see why we can't have Reus and exploit his ability to play almost anywhere that involves an attacking job. What surprises me most with this guy is how he is able to play anywhere as a forward, as a CAM or as a winger. Should we lose 2 people (RVP and Falcao), having such a quality guy in among the front men department is not too much asked.

When it comes to the RB, we are in serious need of someone who can light up some fire under Rafael's ass. Some of us don't quite rate Rafael for xyz reasons (some legitimate, some not) and yet we are in trouble when he doesn't play. If not a fully-fledged replacement, I don't think it would be bad to sign someone who can compete with Rafael for the RB spot. More importantly, that new RB should be more than capable of taking charge should Rafael injure himself again.

 

[DarkXaero]

Mata and Reus are two completely different players. Reus is a very versatile forward player who can play on either wing or through the middle. He relies on his pace and dribbling skills. Mata is more of a number 10 who relies on his short passing, quick movement, and excellent vision. Mata doesn't have pace and directness. I don't see how having Mata means that it's redundant to have Reus. If anything, Mata is not suited in LVG's system or this United squad. Reus is. His injury concerns have become very real though, and something to be mindful of. But still, at the low price that Reus will be available at, it's worth the risk to go after him.

Replacing Rafael has to do more with his constant injury issues rather than his actual ability. We cannot rely on a rightback who is injured as often as he is. Even when he's healthy, he's not that great to begin with.

 

[Insanity]

This thread has taken a wrong turn. I blame myself and an ambiguous starting post. Sorry.

The purpose was to identify players in those positions. Not how X and Y will fit in our team. The players could be from the academy, outside, young, established, anything.

 

[wiz4231]

Wingers - Reus/Cuadrado + Depay
Midfield - Vidal/Strootman + Tielemans
Defenders - not Hummel's. Vertonghan?

 

[Pexbo]

Cuadrado is the new Veloso.

He'll never actually end up at a big club, despite being linked for 15+ consecutive transfer windows.

 

[Spielmacher]

Do we want Bakkali? His contract is running out in the summer.

Tielemans would be a great Carrick-replacement in 1-2 years.