Strategies to get United out of this mess?

diarm said:
Why 200k?

Arsenal have 5 players earning 200k or more and 2 of them are Havertz and Partey who aren’t crucial for them.

200k should be for proven ability and output. Get players in who want to play for Man United - then make big wages achievable but performance based.

Proven elsewhere? Come in on 100k, win a league title and achieve some targets - get a bump to 150k. Make the team of the year or score a set amount of goals / clean sheets, chances created etc - get a bump to 200k. Make a mark in Europe and get nominated for Balon D’Ors or CL teams of the year - get a bump to 250/300k.

We’re giving Champions League superstar wages to Carling Cup pretenders
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Fair point. 200k might be excessive on average. I'm not keen on goals scored, assists bonuses, because it encourages players to be selfish.
 
Cheat financial fair play in over 100 ways with good people in recruitment. You get to just keep buying until you win a league and everybody says how great you are. Flawless system
 
It doesn't have to too difficult but the key is how well we sell and who we sell this summer. If we shift Rashford, Greenwood and McT plus one of Varane or Casemiro we should be able to sign 6 or 7 players as long as we don't overspend.
 
Just have a good transfer window for once and buy quality - oshimen 120/ Frankel De Jong -70 / de light 60/ Olise 50
Yeah everyone will say no and too slow and we already have Hojlund and blah blah blah but I'm not having it that adding 4 top players won't improve us greatly. It doesn't have to be these players. Get others but quality and ready. Not a 19 year old that needs 4 years.
 
UpWithRivers said:
Just have a good transfer window for once and buy quality - oshimen 120/ Frankel De Jong -70 / de light 60/ Olise 50
Yeah everyone will say no and too slow and we already have Hojlund and blah blah blah but I'm not having it that adding 4 top players won't improve us greatly. It doesn't have to be these players. Get others but quality and ready. Not a 19 year old that needs 4 years.
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He doesn't need 4 years. He's performing already. We need to be smart and sign another striker to compete with him. Not Osimhen.
 
Defence
For next season I’m happy enough with the defence once Shaw and Martinez stay fit.

Out: Lindelof, Evans, Maguire, AWB - New CB and RB if possible.

Midfield
Definitely need two work class centre midfielders beside Mainoo.

Out: Casemeiro and Scott.

Attack
Happy enough with Hojlund and that’s it really. Garnacho will be a star but don’t think he’s good enough to start week in/week out yet. Definitely need a new winger in the Summer.

Out: Anthony and Sancho.

Two sum up a new winger and two center midfielders this Summer. Our midfield is non existent. Not sure what to do with Bruno. It hurts me to say but Liverpool did fantastic business with their midfield last Summer. We need to look to do the same.
 
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Jericholyte2 said:
So, looking at the absolute gulf in quality between the two sides this afternoon, we clearly still have a long way to go before we can conceivably be challenging for major titles.

What do we think is the best strategy for getting there?

My theory: as hard as this is to say, we need to build a team around talented workhorses in the way Klopp did with Henderson / Wijnaldum.

Summer ‘24:
- Plan: reinvigorate midfield
- Actions:
Sell Casemiro and Bruno to build a midfield three around Mainoo. Build Mainoo as the creative force in midfield and bring in two DM workhorses behind / next to him.

Funds from the Casemiro & Bruno should bring in two quality DMs (any suggested names?) and we can then look to use ‘regular’ funds for a CB and RB.

If PSG make an offer for Rashford then look to replace him, but plan for him staying this year.

24/5 starting lineup:

—————————————Onana
Frimpong———Diomande———Martinez———Shaw
—————————Thuram———Onana
—————————————Mainoo
Garnacho——————Hojlund——————Rashford

From this we need to build final defensive reinforcement and creativity / finishing. If offers are made for Rashford then accept them and look to replace with a genuine creative winger, rather than an inside forward.

25/6 starting line-up:


—————————————Costa / Maignan?
Frimpong———Diomande———Martinez———LB Upgrade
——————————Thuram———Onana
—————————————Mainoo
Garnacho————-——Hojlund——————LW Upgrade

Add another ST to the squad. And then build the rest of the squad from there, build around physical, press-resistant spine, overlapping FBs and creative wingers to support the main ST.
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This is a sensible post but we need to look at City as two very strong teams, it’s conceivable their current reserve team would finish top 4.

City Current Reserve 11
Ortega - GK
R Lewis - RB
M Akanji- CB
J Simpson - CB
J Gvardiol - LB
Kovacic - CM
M Nunes - AM
S Gomez - AM
O Bob - RWS
J Grealish - LWS
J Alvarez - CFW


Ok that lot has 2 £100m players, a World Cup winner, one of the most exciting players from Scandinavia and at least 7 champions league winners, no offence but that team probably beats United’s first 11 at least 6 out of 10 times, this is a harsh reality, we’ve spent money yes but we’ve spent it really badly and it will cost at least £500m and 3 transfers windows plus a true A lister as a manager like Naigelsman, Handsy Flick or Simeone Inzaghi, we need a coach that knows and expects to win?
 
Sell Dalot who is our player of the season ? Sell Onana who seems to have settled down after a shaky start
Nice.
 
Fairly simple process. Choose a style/system/culture of football utd will play - future managers will only be appointed if they fit this. Scout players to fit that, dont just ring real madrid to see which old wreck you can pay 40, 50 or 60 million for.

We keep moaning about the ‘squad’. Its because every new manager blows £400m on his men and then gets sacked after 2 or 3 years and there has to be a total rebuild of something that never got fully built in the first place - mainly because we always just go for blockbuster signings and overpay for shite whether or not they fit what we aim to do on the pitch.

players? Look at Redondo junior, Roony at copenhagen, that layer of players. Might get the squad built a bit quicker. We need less glamorous players - I feel like the likes of Sancho have come here to earn a fat packet, whilst resting on their laurels and expecting others to carry them.
 
Appoint the right people at the top and everything will fall in place. Is not only about new players and coaching staff it's about changing the whole culture, were rotten to the core. Hopefully we can start changing it.
 
After what I reckon was Bruno's best game of the season the OP's answer to how to improve is that we ought to replace him with a constantly injured Everton DM. This forum.
 
Football leadership structure overhaul (in progress)
Style of play identified
Manager appointment to fit style of play
Squad overhaul including how to maximise sales
Sports science and fitness team overhaul
Training ground overhaul
Stadium

Team first followed by infrastructure.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
Summer ‘24:
- Plan: reinvigorate midfield
- Actions:
Sell Casemiro and Bruno to build a midfield three around Mainoo. Build Mainoo as the creative force in midfield and bring in two DM workhorses behind / next to him.
Click to expand...

Does Mainoo have a single senior assist to his name? This would be a wild leap of faith, to put it lightly.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
24/5 starting lineup:

—————————————Onana
Frimpong———Diomande———Martinez———Shaw
—————————Thuram———Onana
—————————————Mainoo
Garnacho——————Hojlund——————RashfordU
Click to expand...

In fact I think perhaps that entire midfield has a combined zero assists all season.
 
Remember the geese said:
Just copy Arsenal. They were in a right hole a few years ago. Didn't take them long to turn it around.
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I agree with you and it's not as difficult as some make it sound. I think there's a number of players already within the squad that we can build with. But what Arsenal or even Liverpool did when developing their squads is something that is so obvious but takes a bit of patience. At Arsenal it took them finishing 8th, 8th and then 5th to finally mount a challenge for the title. And they obviously got rid of a number of players quickly with the help of Josh Kroenke, who has played a significant role in helping both Arteta and Edu to shape the squad and that's something the Glazers haven't done.

But if you take a closer look at how Arsenal and even Liverpool got the ball rolling as far as creating teams that have the ability to play out from the back, press high collectively and control transitions.. Then take a closer look at the players they have at CB and midfield who have the physical, technical and athletic capabilities to win duels and close off the space between the midfield and back-line. Arsenal had Saliba, Gabriel at CB and Partey in midfield who controlled the defensive transitions as well as being capable in possession. Gabriel probably isn't the best on the ball but his physicality and athleticism adds control as far as containing transitions are concerned due to his ability to win duels higher up the pitch. Likewise Liverpool with Van Dijk and Matip who were both dominant front foot defenders and could handle 1v1 situations in transition whilst defending the channel with ease against the quickest attackers. Klopp has since added more players of that profile in his backline. What those players enable both the aforementioned managers to do is that it allows their fullbacks and midfielders more freedom to create in possession whilst the players at the back are comfortable defending large spaces in a higher defensive line.

I think if the likes of Berrarda and Ashworth play this smartly, then we can develop the team without having to make as bigger change as some seem to think. I think there's already a number of players in the squad who we can build with. But there's also players in the squad who won't do the bare minimum out of possession and will need to be moved on like what happened at Arsenal with Aubamaeyang and Ozil etc. And there's other players who just need moving on and space needs clearing up for new players.

So for me, you look to add a player like Ousmane Diomande at RCB and maybe add a Branthwaite as a option as the LCB. Both these players have the pace and power to make a difference in helping us defend on the front foot and also help us in possession with Diomande in particular showing huge potential in that regard. In midfield we have very little to no athleticism which works against us and if we could sign a midfielder like Tchouameni, Onana or a younger player like Lucas Gourna-Douath, then that would raise the level of our team when it comes to controlling the defensive transition due to the aforementioned players having the ability to control large spaces against quick counters. If we could then also add a young creative midfielder to the mix along with having someone like Nico Williams as a Rashford replacement, then I believe we will see a more powerful and potent Manchester United.

Someone said above that Hojlund is a player more suited to transition football but I completely disagree. Hojlund for me is someone that has potential in both settled play against a lower block and also has the ability to be a danger in transition.

If we can get close to the team below in the coming seasons, then I'm confident we'll be on the right track. And if we can hold on to Varane for one more season, then it could potentially benefit the likes of Diomande and Branthwaite.



--------------------------Hojlund-------------------
-----Williams---------Mount----------Olise------
---------------Tchouameni----Mainoo-----------
----Shaw---Branthwaite---Diomande---Dalot---
---------------------------Onana---------------

I would also look to upgrade on Luke Shaw but can't think of anyone to replace him with. Shaw is unreliable due to the games he misses and I think the end of the season would be good to move him on. Mount isn't popular among many fans but he can play a role in elevating a system/style of play. But I feel the above team would set us up nicely in the mid to long-term and it has the potential to play out from the back, press high collectively, along with close off passing lanes quickly and also has the ability to control defensive transitions at a high level. Controlling a game in the present footballing landscape isn't only about controlling the game in-possession but also controlling the game out of possession. And our bigger problem is that we can't control the game out of possession imo.

If we can't sign Tchouameni, then someone like a Amadou Onana or even Lucas Gourna-Douath would work well imo.
 
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We need to get rid of everybody except Mainoo, Hojlund, Dalot, and possibly Garnacho. I would keep Onana if he continues playing like he did today and pinky-promises that there will never be the kind of shit he was doing in the beginning of the season

Except with financial fairplay, we simply cannot afford to do it and we have no chance of raising money through player sales because our players fall in three categories
1. They will be free agents soon
2. NOBODY wants them on insane salaries we pay them (*cough* Rashford)
3. They can only be sold at significant loss (Sancho, Antony, etc.)
4. Their price is so low, we can hardly replace them with the sale price

And then there is Greenwood, who is homegrown and should have been worth over 100 millions before the whole scandal. Now we will be lucky if we can sell him for 40 mil, which is less than we are able to buy any decent player for.

So, the plan we need - there is no money for it. Anything else will be a multi-year, very painful process. Best case scenario - we find some unknwon players in Brazil, Argentina, and the leages like that. These players will have very hard time hitting the ground running in EPL. Normally, they should go to Germany, France, Portugal etc. before coming to EPL, but once they are there their price is too much for us, so we can't do that
 
Jericholyte2 said:
So, looking at the absolute gulf in quality between the two sides this afternoon, we clearly still have a long way to go before we can conceivably be challenging for major titles.

What do we think is the best strategy for getting there?

My theory: as hard as this is to say, we need to build a team around talented workhorses in the way Klopp did with Henderson / Wijnaldum.

Summer ‘24:
- Plan: reinvigorate midfield
- Actions:
Sell Casemiro and Bruno to build a midfield three around Mainoo. Build Mainoo as the creative force in midfield and bring in two DM workhorses behind / next to him.

Funds from the Casemiro & Bruno should bring in two quality DMs (any suggested names?) and we can then look to use ‘regular’ funds for a CB and RB.

If PSG make an offer for Rashford then look to replace him, but plan for him staying this year.

24/5 starting lineup:

—————————————Onana
Frimpong———Diomande———Martinez———Shaw
—————————Thuram———Onana
—————————————Mainoo
Garnacho——————Hojlund——————Rashford

From this we need to build final defensive reinforcement and creativity / finishing. If offers are made for Rashford then accept them and look to replace with a genuine creative winger, rather than an inside forward.

25/6 starting line-up:


—————————————Costa / Maignan?
Frimpong———Diomande———Martinez———LB Upgrade
——————————Thuram———Onana
—————————————Mainoo
Garnacho————-——Hojlund——————LW Upgrade

Add another ST to the squad. And then build the rest of the squad from there, build around physical, press-resistant spine, overlapping FBs and creative wingers to support the main ST.
Click to expand...


It's genuinely impressive to replace 80% of the team and come up with one that is no better than the one we have.

That attack isn't winning you anything. Our biggest issue by far post SAF has been the front 3. Depay, Mata, Di Maria, Lukaku, Sancho, Antony.. the amount of crap we've signed their is incredible.

The one season we looked good is when we had Martial fit and Greenwood up top. If we fix the two wide forwards positions, everything else follows. Arsenal have Saka. Klopp signed Mane and Salah before fixing the defence and midfield. City have about 10 good attacking options. That should always be the first priority.
 
The old adage build a team from the back is still the best way imo. If we can get fast CDs who can play the high line and/or pass through the opposition and wing backs who can defend as well, then this will help the team no end. Dalot seems to be growing into the defending part now, so a LWB and a couple of CDs would be my priority.
At the moment we are 19th in shots against, so cutting this drastically should turn more defeats into draws at least and a few into wins. Get the back right then we can start on the midfield.
Mainoo and maybe promote another youngster to help out Bruno and McTom, as I cant see them leaving.
Hojlund Garnacho and give Amad game time on the wing. Rashford will still be here and more than likely will Antony, as we wont get a buyer to cover even half his fee.
If we could get a cheap striker or a loan, just in case of Hojlund missing games, even if its just for a season, would be great.
 
Our players been a mis match of the style we fans wants to see and the clubs wants to play. Regarding manager, unless there's a Zidane or his equivalent then im not holding my breath at any new managers.

It still coming down to personells (players), we have our arguably best players in Rashford and Bruno only on their best when playing in individualistic (magic moments) and counter attack. If new coach coming in and still have the problem to incorporate them then we will still see the same as its best to play a system that fit what you have (we have to factor in that managers are still employees and they will have to answer with results or will get the sack we keep calling for whenever we have bad results). You can only teach so much your employees new things when they want to learn and im afraid our players will down tools any minute because they feel they will outlast managers anyway. Thats why Van Gaal said he likes to play the new and young players because they learn quicker and much more eager then the old heads.

We can look at scouting and rely on them to find us the palyers on the 10-60m range. I think we do t needntk spend the 100m like we did almost every season. Those are only when we need rhe edge to win things. Build squads with technical, athletics, compliments each others.

I would rather sell most of them if we can and buy a mixture of up and coming young players and players on the cusp of moving up the level in their career. Buy smart and what we needs.
 
Being on the other side of the world, not sure what the situation is currently, but surely the fitness, conditioning and medical teams need to change. A kick in the gonads is not enough, as a team we have more injuries that any other EPL team and if that’s down to penny pinching by the Tampa gnomes, it needs to be corrected and quickly.

Difficult to win when so many players are out injured, has to be a deep investigation into that side of the club.
 
I’d instill certain principals first before anything specific:

- All signings 25 years of age or younger (no Eriksen or Casemiro). I like how Arsenal have gone about their squad build and I think it would suit better.
- Cut your losses on duds fast - no need to keep hanging on to underpeformers (see much of the squad). Take quick hits and move on. For example Antony should to this summer along with many others.
- All signings have to be capable in playing in a high line, front foot team, intense pressing team that can keep the ball under pressure (no Casmeiro, no Maguire, no Awb, no old Erikson, sell McTominay)
- Revision of the wage structure. Stop handing out fat contracts too early, or at the slight hint of having a quality player on our hands. Huge wages to be paid to undoubtedly top class footballers - see Salah, Mane, VVd, KDB. Not Rashford after one good season, Sancho for being hyped or Martial for technical quality and promise.
- I’d also not really spend big on a single player. A 50 odd million cap for a few summers would allow us to keep over zealous transferr hormones in check. First you build a base with smart signings that suit the system, then you earn the right to spend bigger.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
I’d instill certain principals first before anything specific:

- All signings 25 years of age or younger (no Eriksen or Casemiro). I like how Arsenal have gone about their squad build and I think it would suit better.
- Cut your losses on duds fast - no need to keep hanging on to underpeformers (see much of the squad). Take quick hits and move on. For example Antony should to this summer along with many others.
- All signings have to be capable in playing in a high line, front foot team, intense pressing team that can keep the ball under pressure (no Casmeiro, no Maguire, no Awb, no old Erikson, sell McTominay)
- Revision of the wage structure. Stop handing out fat contracts too early, or at the slight hint of having a quality player on our hands. Huge wages to be paid to undoubtedly top class footballers - see Salah, Mane, VVd, KDB. Not Rashford after one good season, Sancho for being hyped or Martial for technical quality and promise.
- I’d also not really spend big on a single player. A 50 odd million cap for a few summers would allow us to keep over zealous transferr hormones in check. First you build a base with smart signings that suit the system, then you earn the right to spend bigger.
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Can’t argue with 98% of that.

Only marginal thing I’d change / add is I the 25 y/o signing policy, as there should be exceptions for free signings. If we can pick up any smart buys that fit the system we want to play (that part is crucial) then I’m not against more experienced players. We could have a high turnover of players this summer and next with contracts running out, so if we can replace a couple of these in a cost effective way whilst also adding some experience in with the youth, I think it is a win win. But spending £70m on a 30 year old on a 4+1 350k a week contract needs to stop I think we can all agree.
 
I would say No. 1 thing is to establish a proper payroll structure. This is the root cause of most our current issues. Without it, you can't sell under-performing players (Martial , Jones, Lingard, Maguire, Sancho, Williams, and the soon Anthony) ; Your good players are spoiled with overpaid money and lose motivation (Rashford, De Gea) .

To do that, you have to acknowledge the loss and ship ALL overpaid players with discount. keeping any one of them would make the whole initiative fail. So , here the deals:

Casemiro : Deal with middle-east and ship him out
Varane: not renew with him, release
Sancho / Anthony : loan them out till running of contracts (no one would seriously want to buy them so stop wasting time on it)
Rashford: sell him to PSG
Bruno: he probably the toughest to deal as he would not want to join middle-east yet at this age. Atletico Madrid maybe a good next stop to try out.

Moving forward, top earner should be capped 200K / week + bonus based on performance, just like the other top team . Then we can talk business to rebuild the team.
 
afatzp said:
I would say No. 1 thing is to establish a proper payroll structure. This is the root cause of most our current issues. Without it, you can't sell under-performing players (Martial , Jones, Lingard, Maguire, Sancho, Williams, and the soon Anthony) ; Your good players are spoiled with overpaid money and lose motivation (Rashford, De Gea) .

To do that, you have to acknowledge the loss and ship ALL overpaid players with discount. keeping any one of them would make the whole initiative fail. So , here the deals:

Casemiro : Deal with middle-east and ship him out
Varane: not renew with him, release
Sancho / Anthony : loan them out till running of contracts (no one would seriously want to buy them so stop wasting time on it)
Rashford: sell him to PSG
Bruno: he probably the toughest to deal as he would not want to join middle-east yet at this age. Atletico Madrid maybe a good next stop to try out.

Moving forward, top earner should be capped 200K / week + bonus based on performance, just like the other top team . Then we can talk business to rebuild the team.
Click to expand...
Our problem is not the wages we give but to whom we give it to that needs to be fixed , this notion that top clubs have a specific wage structure without an exception is not based on actual reality .
 
I've been saying for the longest time. Copy what City did in the early '10s and Arsenal recently. Replace all of the current lightweights we have with press resistant players.

I'm sure by now everyone is sick of two things. One, failing to break down teams that sit back, and two, failing to string more than five passes together whenever we have to deal with a team that presses us. Well, coaching can only take you so far. Managers still need players who have press resistant attributes (being able to dribble past players, shielding the ball under pressure, having the agility to turn away from their marker, etc) to combat the aforementioned problems, and we have hardly anyone who fits the bill.

These players aren't as rare as some think. There are so many out waiting to be given the shot. Stocking up on them is only the start. It won't solve everything but it will naturally evolve our play and give our next manager the platform to implement a winning formula.
 
Phil said:
Please Lord start with some technical players who can escape a press, have a decent touch, can play a 1-2 etc. If they could be midfielders that’d be great.

In fact, just a team of 11 Mainoos will do
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The Bold part is exactly my thought!

Majority of our players are not comfortable under any press, they either hoof it long or lose it, you can't compete with players who aren't good enough to hold unto the ball in tight spaces.

Until we start scouting and signing players who are possession comfortable then we'll see no changes.
 
Phil said:
Please Lord start with some technical players who can escape a press, have a decent touch, can play a 1-2 etc. If they could be midfielders that’d be great.

In fact, just a team of 11 Mainoos will do
Click to expand...

Something along with these lines. Sign modern players, get quality on the bench and starting 11 for competition and add physical presence in midfield.

It has to be remembered that Klopp will be gone, and Pep likely too when 115 charges hit. The game wont be the same, what we're up against wont be the same.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
So, looking at the absolute gulf in quality between the two sides this afternoon, we clearly still have a long way to go before we can conceivably be challenging for major titles.

What do we think is the best strategy for getting there?

My theory: as hard as this is to say, we need to build a team around talented workhorses in the way Klopp did with Henderson / Wijnaldum.

Summer ‘24:
- Plan: reinvigorate midfield
- Actions:
Sell Casemiro and Bruno to build a midfield three around Mainoo. Build Mainoo as the creative force in midfield and bring in two DM workhorses behind / next to him.

Funds from the Casemiro & Bruno should bring in two quality DMs (any suggested names?) and we can then look to use ‘regular’ funds for a CB and RB.

If PSG make an offer for Rashford then look to replace him, but plan for him staying this year.

24/5 starting lineup:

—————————————Onana
Frimpong———Diomande———Martinez———Shaw
—————————Thuram———Onana
—————————————Mainoo
Garnacho——————Hojlund——————Rashford

From this we need to build final defensive reinforcement and creativity / finishing. If offers are made for Rashford then accept them and look to replace with a genuine creative winger, rather than an inside forward.

25/6 starting line-up:


—————————————Costa / Maignan?
Frimpong———Diomande———Martinez———LB Upgrade
——————————Thuram———Onana
—————————————Mainoo
Garnacho————-——Hojlund——————LW Upgrade

Add another ST to the squad. And then build the rest of the squad from there, build around physical, press-resistant spine, overlapping FBs and creative wingers to support the main ST.
Click to expand...

I agree, I would possibly start with the midfield. Our midfield gets overrun by opposition teams too easily so we need at least two new midfielders and build around them. Two talented workhorses next season are fine. You will lose a lot of creativity with these kind of midfielders, but at least teams won't cut through our midfield.
 
Dismantle the team Chelsea style and start all over again. Get rid of most of the squad, fire the manager and give the new manager a totally clean slate to do his own thing. Anything short of that will not work.
 
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