Stop this best midfield in world crap!!!!! Open your eyes...

ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC

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Everytime one person says "Maybe we should sell Scholes/Giggs/Butt etc" one other person comes out and says "That would break up the best midfield in the world!" and accuse the first person of blasphey.

Too many idiots are blaming the defence for our lack of silverware, but how many games have our defence lost for us? 4? 5? We've lost alot more games than that!

Too often our midfield has failed to win us the game, a legitimiate loss, no individual errors (Barthez style), just straightforward outplayed, outbattled, outsmarted etc. The goals conceded have been earned, and that means that the team lost a battle, that the goal was NOT some freak individual error. Where are these battles won and lost?

Our defence did not get us knocked out of the FA Cup, or the Champions League. We failed to score in the FA Cup and we failed to win in the Champions League.

Many of the goals we've conceded have actually been down to the midfield not doing their job. Look at all midfields across Europe and how they close down players, our team hardly does it. Look how easy it has been for good teams to totally kill us off. How easy it is to totally eliminate Giggs from a game, its embarassing that we need TWO defensive midfielders to actually look remotely solid. That even with 5 midfielders teams just walk through us like water. Its actually been our defence that has stopped this continuous onslaught from better teams where our midfield disappears. Ball goes upfield, comes right back down, defence clears, ball comes right back down. We're bound to concede goals like that!

Some of you people need to realise that for 2-3 years now we have been going down and that means that the players haven't played as well and the manager hasn't been as effective. So therefore things need improving and you CANNOT rule out selling some of these players. I am not calling for it to happen, nor do I blame anyone for our lack of success. I am just open to change, and am annoye at people thinking everything is ok except our defence. Do you lot actually watch the games? Or just read what journalists have to say?

We have finished THIRD ladies and gentlemen, its annoying that some of you still think that everything is fine and dandy and all we need is 2 CBs and we'll get the Treble. :mad:
 
I totally agree. But whenver I say something Dans and co get on my back :(
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:

Too many idiots are blaming the defence for our lack of silverware, but how many games have our defence lost for us? 4? 5? We've lost alot more games than that!
4 or 5, thats about 50%, which is too much either way

Our defence did not get us knocked out of the FA Cup, or the Champions League. We failed to score in the FA Cup and we failed to win in the Champions League.
Our defence cost us dearly in the Boro game where we had a reserve midfield, our midfield and attack got us out of jail in the Villa game

Our defence cost us a lot in the earlier european games and the goals in the Bayer game scould all have been dealt with better, a big dirty irish man like meself there to knock it into next week for example.

Many of the goals we've conceded have actually been down to the midfield not doing their job. Look at all midfields across Europe and how they close down players, our team hardly does it.
We certainly do close other teams down, weve a very hardworking midfield, Keane, Bex, Scholes are just three supposedly prima donnas who snap att the opponents heels for 90 minutes

Look how easy it has been for good teams to totally kill us off.
like who?
How easy it is to totally eliminate Giggs from a game, put two men on anyone Maradona and your going to eliminate him, its up to the rest, especially the supporting full back to take advantage of this

its embarassing that we need TWO defensive midfielders to actually look remotely solid.
bull

That even with 5 midfielders teams just walk through us like water.
water is actually tough to walk through, tougher than than a mixture of 02, C02, N etc. Who has walked through us this season?

Its actually been our defence that has stopped this continuous onslaught from better teams where our midfield disappears. thats the defences job, our midfield has never disappeared

Ball goes upfield, comes right back down, defence clears, ball comes right back down. We're bound to concede goals like that!your exagerating, either way thats football, eb & flow. the defence is the first stage of the attack

Some of you people need to realise that for 2-3 years now we have been going down and that means that the players haven't played as well and the manager hasn't been as effective. 2-3 yrs, ill settle for the title any yr, i learned toappreciate em during the 80's. the manager has been the most effective man in england, look at our record 2 home & in europe in the "downhill yrs" and compare it to the french kunts @ highbury & unfilled

So therefore things need improving and you CANNOT rule out selling some of these players. things need improving but selling some of the best individual midfielders in the world makes no sense

I am not calling for it to happen, nor do I blame anyone for our lack of success. I am just open to change, and am annoye at people thinking everything is ok except our defence.there are those of us who think that the defence isnt so bad & all, i think the problem which is not a bi problem is more evenly spread over the whole pitch

We have finished THIRD ladies and gentlemen, its annoying that some of you still think that everything is fine and dandy and all we need is 2 CBs and we'll get the Treble. :mad:
this is the part that annoys me, third, fair enough, but we took the league to the 2nd last game which is 90 minutes away from 1999
We were the width of a post from the CL final
the truth is that were as close to glory this yr as we were from failure in 1999.
Imagine if Janckers shot went in off the bar in Barcelona and we lost to Spurs on the final day of 1999, would you be feeling the same,

theirs a fine line between succes & failure,<hr></blockquote>
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Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>Everytime one person says "Maybe we should sell Scholes/Giggs/Butt etc" one other person comes out and says "That would break up the best midfield in the world!" and accuse the first person of blasphey.

Too often our midfield has failed to win us the game, a legitimiate loss, no individual errors (Barthez style), just straightforward outplayed, outbattled, outsmarted etc. The goals conceded have been earned, and that means that the team lost a battle, that the goal was NOT some freak individual error. Where are these battles won and lost?


Many of the goals we've conceded have actually been down to the midfield not doing their job. Look at all midfields across Europe and how they close down players, our team hardly does it.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

In answer to the first paragraph, I wouldnt claim its the best midfield in the world, but at present its Manchester Uniteds best midfield.

On the other 2 paragraphs, which basically boil down to the one thing...one word:Veron
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Sure we finished third in the league, but I will take a lot of persuading that, after two straight "no-contest" premiership titles but embarrassment at the QF stages in Europe, the premiership was anything more than a subsidiary target this year, especially after a poor early start. My feeling is that progressing to the EC Semi-Finals this year was an achievement, and a vindication of the first choice team.

The midfield of Beckham, Keane, Scholes, and Giggs may not be the very best in the world, but it is not far off, and not where our problem lies. This first choice midfield is capable of winning any game, anywhere, any time.

The issue is twofold :

a. the addition of Veron to this world-class midfield has not improved it, rather the reverse. This may or may not get better next year (if the current players including JSV all stay ??) but this year Veron himself has performed generally below expectations, and the constant juggling of roles has been disruptive both for his own game and that of Scholes.

b. the depth of the squad in midfield is not what it needs to be to win the Euro Champions league. Butt is a top class player, but Fortune and Chadwick have yet to demonstrate that they have what it takes (including basic issues of technique and ball-control) to sustain a career in the premiership, let alone at higher levels.
I'm not a great fan of McManaman, but if Real Madrid can bring him on as sub, then their bench is stronger than our equivalent.

In the absence of Beckham, we had a lot of pressure in each of the key late season games, but barely a single decent cross for the strikers to attack. Giggsy has admitted that his own form in the Bayer games was poor, but even he used to have more competition for his place if his form dropped...eg over the years Sharpe, Gillespie, Blomquist.

Our first choice midfield is still world class, but to do better next year then Fergie needs to resolve the Veron conundrum (there's more than one way of doing this !) and apply a ruthless quality threshold to the players we are fielding as cover....we need to sign at least one more winger with penetration and/or the ability to cross.
 
Murt you've attacked it all from the wrong point of view.

In the games that knocked us out of the FA Cup and Champions League, it was not our defences fault that we did not progress.

The goals conceded came about from a lack of control over the game and poor midfield protection. Our midfielders DO chase down players (sometimes anyway) but then they dont tackle them, they stand 2 yards away and watch them and give them time and room to pass the ball on. Open football = yes, but its definitely wrong.

Against Leverkusen we let them win. Their players didnt have to work to get past our midfield to our box because our midfield backed off and backed off. Leverkusen just couldn't find that final ball thanks to some poor passing and good defending from our CBs. But that amount of pressure and the ease with which they got to the edge of our box was alarming. But it was very very hard for us to reach their box wasn't it? They had 3 players sticking legs out and shoulder tackling at all times. Ours just stood there, shuffling backwards and forwards, left to right and oops - there goes the ball.

THATS what I mean by walking through our midfield. Also players run past our players too easy, you'd think they were all Zidanes, but you get all sorts of players beating our midfield. On the other hand how often do OUR players beat the opposition players? These are all examples of bad defending which other teams do so much better than us. Some players have simply ran right down the centre of the park right through our CMs! Other times have seen long balls split our whole team down the middle.

THAT is my argument, compare us to world class midfields (not necessary best players) and you'll find organisation far beyond our own.

Whenever we've lost - thats when our midfields been killed off. Liverpool, Arsenal, Leverkusen, have all done it. I have to ask why has our midfield been the ones who've lost the battle? Why cant we eliminate THEIR midfield? Thats the kind of viewpoint thats needed. Against Bayer we were lucky to have scored against them at all! Our goals were lucky and their possesion and control of the game was superior - so which midfield was better?

And Giggs is not man marked by 2 guys anymore! Thats just bollox, 1) he has a roaming role and 2) teams cant afford to ignore our other players. Face it, in some games when he has the ball he wastes it everytime and then he vanishes.

Unlike Liverpool, performances DO matter because a) its the Man Utd style and b) they indicate things for the future.

And no, I am not exxagerating. For periods against teams, our midfield is beaten too easily, they get the ball, fail to do anything with it, lose it and then watch as the ball goes right past them or keep backing off until the opposition has nowhere left to run. It hapened for 75 minutes against Leverkusen.

Ask any football pundit. The reason we have lost some of these really big games (and subsequently have only won about 3 of our big games - which is pathetic for the champions) is because our midfield has been very poor.

And it was no coincidence that having Butt helped us back on our feet Murt. He helped the midfield, not the defence. And thats the only time we have looked solid, with Butt and Keane, 2 Defensive mids in the middle.
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>Everytime one person says "Maybe we should sell Scholes/Giggs/Butt etc" one other person comes out and says "That would break up the best midfield in the world!" and accuse the first person of blasphey.

Too many idiots are blaming the defence for our lack of silverware, but how many games have our defence lost for us? 4? 5? We've lost alot more games than that!

Too often our midfield has failed to win us the game, a legitimiate loss, no individual errors (Barthez style), just straightforward outplayed, outbattled, outsmarted etc. The goals conceded have been earned, and that means that the team lost a battle, that the goal was NOT some freak individual error. Where are these battles won and lost?

Our defence did not get us knocked out of the FA Cup, or the Champions League. We failed to score in the FA Cup and we failed to win in the Champions League.

Many of the goals we've conceded have actually been down to the midfield not doing their job. Look at all midfields across Europe and how they close down players, our team hardly does it. Look how easy it has been for good teams to totally kill us off. How easy it is to totally eliminate Giggs from a game, its embarassing that we need TWO defensive midfielders to actually look remotely solid. That even with 5 midfielders teams just walk through us like water. Its actually been our defence that has stopped this continuous onslaught from better teams where our midfield disappears. Ball goes upfield, comes right back down, defence clears, ball comes right back down. We're bound to concede goals like that!

Some of you people need to realise that for 2-3 years now we have been going down and that means that the players haven't played as well and the manager hasn't been as effective. So therefore things need improving and you CANNOT rule out selling some of these players. I am not calling for it to happen, nor do I blame anyone for our lack of success. I am just open to change, and am annoye at people thinking everything is ok except our defence. Do you lot actually watch the games? Or just read what journalists have to say?

We have finished THIRD ladies and gentlemen, its annoying that some of you still think that everything is fine and dandy and all we need is 2 CBs and we'll get the Treble. :mad: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Finally some sense in the debate (see the FAO Panic Buyer thread). Buying new defenders won't necessarily guarantee anything next year. We need to win our easy fixtures at OT, as well as the get some points off of Arsenal and Liverpool if we hope to regain the league next year.
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Interesting comments about the midfield. Before reading this thread I was guilty of saying two defenders, a fourth striker and cover for Becks and/or Giggs will solve all the problems.
This season we have not created the chances we did during the treble season. I remember the FA Cup tie with Liverpool. We murdered them! It was only a matter of time before we scored. This season against them in league I hoped rather than expected we'd score. This has been the case too often this year. Did Fergie realise this? Is that why we bought Veron?
I don't know if I'll change my view about what/who we should buy but I have something to think about. Will my heart allow my head to suggest selling or dropping Keane, Beckham, Giggs or Scholes? NEVER!!! Sorry but I've closed my mind again in the time it has taken to write this. (Thank God I'm not the manager. He can do the job better than me).
 
Originally posted by kemo:
<strong>I totally agree. But whenver I say something Dans and co get on my back :( </strong><hr></blockquote>

You can have your own opinion.Dont care about it some of the jokes are funny.Its only because you are the new Ichk.
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Jeeeeeeeeeeeezus ..... It's not who we buy or who plays, it's HOW we play.

For whatever reason, last season, it's as if each player (barring Keano) was expecting the other player to do the biz. I agree that the MF has to take a lot, if not more, of the stick for the season than the defence. The interchanging and floating has done nowt but unsettle the balance of the formation and left the defence exposed on countless occasions. I said this before Christmas but many peeps said I was wrong coz we scored so many goals etc. BS folks, it's all well and good scoring 6 v Soton or 5 v Derby @ home etc (Which is great) but how many times did we also fail to score @ home? poo, arse, Chelsea, Boro' ..... See, it's not about how many we score, it's when they are scored.

I agree with SC a lot, not 100%, on this topic and it's about time a lot of you opened your eyes to what's going on on the pitch.

The midfield seems to have fallen into a exhibition style mode in an attempt to 'one-up' each other. I've never seen Giggsy try so many daft flicks when a simple lay-off to any other RED would have sufficed. Maybe in training they work these little drills that have a good effect but that's training.

It doesn't matter whether we play 4-5-1 or 4-4-2, Bex & Giggsy need to stay wide and stretch the defenders they are up against; if they get closed down, then there's bound to be open space inside for someone else to exploit.

This season has been so frustrating for me to watch ... seeing 5 of the best midfielders in the world almost bumping into each other in the middle of the park :mad:

If Seba stays, which I hope he does, the pre-season is vital imo. We need to quit this interchanging BS and play the right way, wide men stretching the D and the middle men exploiting the spaces. Roles need to be defined and adhered to without becoming too predictable.

Anyway, I think Fergie tried to change the predictability last season and hey, it didn't work, but at least he tried. I think our boys played some lovely stuff too but against the better teams, it was neutralised unfortunately. Other than Depor and Bayern away in Europe and Chelsea away in the Prem, we really didn't turn it on at all against the 'better' clubs! We have the players to do it but I think this last season was a learning curve; by next season I hope all lessons will have been learnt.
 
Shit are people really starting to write books at these pages??
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>but how many games have our defence lost for us? 4? 5? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Nine in the PL and surrendered leads to Leverkusen twice in the CL semi.

Our midfield is fine but it needs a solid defensive foundation behind it, not blamange.
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I thought the whole team are defenders when we didn`t have the ball and all attackers when we have the ball.

<img src="graemlins/angel.gif" border="0" alt="[Angel]" />
 
Originally posted by Richter:
<strong>Shit are people really starting to write books at these pages??</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> But that's fine. I'm happy to read books for free, especially when some of the "books" hear are even better than the books selling outside. :)
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Good thread this . Two pence worth from me if you don't mind .

Schaolin has some valid points . However any very good side has it's basis on it's defensive rock .

This is in the history andtradition of the game .

To my mind it has only ever deviated once with Brazil 1970 who having so many truly gifted world class players hardy warrented needing a keeper !!

It really was for them -"however many you score we'll better it".

It's surely a confidence thing here - if your back four is solid - sitting in front of a confident keeper it all goes from there . the midfield take one look at them and think 'we can make mistakes and ( for example ) but Jap will sort THAT out'. If Keano is thinking shit Neville and Brown are shaky -I'm gonna have to sit deeper to protect them 'then he won't be as willing to make his telling runs opening up otions in further forward . Your strikers Giggsy etc will think 'what the feck is Roy doing back there ALL the game does he think she's Vieira or something !!'? - the whole fabric of the side imo is pretty much determined by how your keeper and two central defenders are .

No matter how god your midfield is - if there's a feeling that you will leak goals at the slightest opportunity - they will be fragile .

I think Shaolin's right ANYBODY can be sold and ANYBODY should not be given the God given right to stay BUT in your case your keeper central defenders have been shown to be vulnerable .

That's why you could not challenge so stronlgy because the PL went after you . ALL teams thought you could be beaten and went for it ( apart from Chelsea at the bridge !) .

Your confidence was broken AT THE BACK .

Another point is that in the modern game no body's midfield is SO good that another team cannot get through it . Fitness and talent is greater now than ever before - speed and power will ultimatley leave your centre backs facing a fast moving midfield / striker running at them .

It's at that point when you need quality defending and losing Stam proved to be the 'lower brick being removed' The rest would surely fall , which became eveident as Bartez starting making mistakes quickly compounded by others .

You could not get the speed or strength that Stam gave you in Blanc .

You are making a huge mistake if you think Blamc can do what Stam did . Blanc is nothing like as good for you as Stam - he's a pretty defender lokks great when you're 2-0 up facing Leicester BUT this season when a team has gone for you they have invariaby succeeded .

You can argue about your midfield all day but when the oppo get through like they will who would you want to face Jonsen (Brown )and Blanc or Keown and Campbell or Hypia and Henchoz even Terry and Dessailly.

No contest mates .

You need two pacey strong central defenders (who defend) and maybe a keeper although I feel he will not make those mistakes playing with a with it central srong minded 'personality' defender .

Your midfield is fine just needs a manager who can strike the balance with or without Seb .

It's funny how you look individually a stronger side now but the balance, power, speed and directness of Keane, Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Yorke and Cole seemed far more effective in front of course the rock solid Stam and Schmeichal

If you don't get it sorted at the back you won't even make the Champions League next year .
 
TTR - I think you're right mate, its not the personnel but the deployment of them that is the problem. Our midfield four used to be the best at closing down the opposition, this season too many times they defend from 3 yards away like SC was saying - they have the ability but not the organisation nor have been coached correctly. Also our interchanging of positions actually leaves everyone out of position, reduces understanding in the team and opens up big gaps for the opposing team to exploit in a counter attack. Selling the players won't help, we need a new coach. In the early part of the season our defense was put under ridiculous pressure because of this, and the defense was shaky anyway so it just buckled. Credit to Alex - he stopped the rot by playing Butt alongside Keane and putting Veron on the right or left, or resting him altogether. He got the whole team defending again, but at the expense of our creativity, and again Veron would wander, and so would Giggs and Beckham and then we'd fall apart again. The problem is this 'Total Football' idea, I don't think it works against the brilliant organisation and fast paced teams of today.
 
"look at our record 2 home & in europe in the "downhill yrs" and compare it to the french kunts @ highbury & unfilled"

Nice turn of phrase there - Wenger - five years at Highbury and you're right - unfullfilled -
2 x doubles and about 6 /7 2nd places

Correct - unfullfilled and very very poor

Sheeeeesh

:rolleyes: :eek:
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>Everytime one person says "Maybe we should sell Scholes/Giggs/Butt etc" one other person comes out and says "That would break up the best midfield in the world!" and accuse the first person of blasphey.

Too many idiots are blaming the defence for our lack of silverware, but how many games have our defence lost for us? 4? 5? We've lost alot more games than that!

Too often our midfield has failed to win us the game, a legitimiate loss, no individual errors (Barthez style), just straightforward outplayed, outbattled, outsmarted etc. The goals conceded have been earned, and that means that the team lost a battle, that the goal was NOT some freak individual error. Where are these battles won and lost?

Our defence did not get us knocked out of the FA Cup, or the Champions League. We failed to score in the FA Cup and we failed to win in the Champions League.

Many of the goals we've conceded have actually been down to the midfield not doing their job. Look at all midfields across Europe and how they close down players, our team hardly does it. Look how easy it has been for good teams to totally kill us off. How easy it is to totally eliminate Giggs from a game, its embarassing that we need TWO defensive midfielders to actually look remotely solid. That even with 5 midfielders teams just walk through us like water. Its actually been our defence that has stopped this continuous onslaught from better teams where our midfield disappears. Ball goes upfield, comes right back down, defence clears, ball comes right back down. We're bound to concede goals like that!

Some of you people need to realise that for 2-3 years now we have been going down and that means that the players haven't played as well and the manager hasn't been as effective. So therefore things need improving and you CANNOT rule out selling some of these players. I am not calling for it to happen, nor do I blame anyone for our lack of success. I am just open to change, and am annoye at people thinking everything is ok except our defence. Do you lot actually watch the games? Or just read what journalists have to say?

We have finished THIRD ladies and gentlemen, its annoying that some of you still think that everything is fine and dandy and all we need is 2 CBs and we'll get the Treble. :mad: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Nice article and some very interesting points. Athough I'm not totally agree with you but I appreciate that you have presented some nice comments and opinion reasonably and in detail, as opposite to some so-called hard-core fans who only know how to object every negative comments posted by other fans but just cannot put out any reasonable comment themselves.

As for your comments about our midfield, you have a point that our midfield was outplayed by opponents in some occasions this season. You said that it is because they failed to close down opponents or fail to tackle them. But that's only one of the reason. Another major reason is that our midfield fail to pass or hold the ball at the level they should be doing. Take the matches against Leverkusen for example, we lost the ball nearly every time the ball was pass forward (especially when pass towards Ruud), therefore it seems that the midfield was all Leverkusen and our defence was kept under pressure.

Whether our midfield is the best or not it is debatable. But one thing is for sure: We should not mess up the midfield position anymore. The Becks-Scholes-Keano-Giggs midfield has been excellent in last few years. Have they gone down in this year? You cannot say for sure, simply because we seldom started with this midfield formation in this season.

We must learn from this year, stop any redundant formation experiement and stop placing people out of position. Of course, in training we also need to work on the defence ability of the whole team (not only defenders, but also midfielders and even forward). Individually we have the midfielders who can make any other manager envy, what we lack is only a proper way to make our midfield to function at their full ability.
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Yes, we dont necessarily need to sell or to buy in midfield, but things need to change. Its not just this year our midfield let us down, its only been more apparent.

I actually think that our midfield has improved on last year with Veron here. Last year we would have underperformed again at Deportivo and crashed out AGAIN. This year we've gotten further although only in sporadic periods.

But defensively the decline has continued, its not necessarily the absence or presence of a coach because the same frailties and problems existed last year and the year before. Its only been this year with no Stam at the back that they become so apparent.

If you're still hung up on our fantastic midfield look at it this way.

Pires - Giggs
Ljungberg - Scholes
Vieira - Keane
Bergkamp - Veron
Parlour/Wiltord - Beckham

Only Keane and Beckham can really hold their heads high in this respect - I dont care how badly Beckham plays going forward, how often he misses a pass, he will still be there snapping at heels and making stupid challenges and running his heart out. Probably getting booked.

He should be captain behind Keane cos I cant remember the last time Giggs stood up and made a difference. Giggs only plays when conditions suit him, Beckham makes the game and the conditions his own. THAT is what we need more than defensive or attacking power, that ability and willingness to take the game and make it yours. After that everything else will follow.

This is why we need Veron to stay cos he can do this also, perhaps when Giggs or Scholes cannot.

Its my firm belief that everytime Keano says something about not standing up, he is talking about Giggsy. Possibly the most powerful member of our dressing room cos he is so established and so unrivalled in every way. Possibly the most talented too, but its no coincidence that everything good he has done lately has come from abit of luck i.e. player falling against Depor.

Just who do YOU think Keane is reffering to when he says what he does? He isn't just throwing it out - he is obviously frustrated at some players and also the manager for sticking with these players. Hence he turns to the press. Keane would be a great manager - he see's football the way I do
:D

Sorry for another book, but theres just so much to cover, so many frustrations to vent...
 
My problem with our midfield is the hunger of 99 is gone. In 99 the team was ready to die before concedding. i.e evryone inclufding Giggsy threw themselves into yatackles to win back possesion. In short they worked twice as hard as evryone else. Hopefully now that they will have to prove themselves all over again that spirit will return!
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>The problem is this 'Total Football' idea, I don't think it works against the brilliant organisation and fast paced teams of today.</strong><hr></blockquote>Spot on. Far inferior opposing players are essentially sitting back outside their 18 yard box just admiring all the f'kin delicate chips and deft touches. They're nice to watch but, more often than not, the solid defences just soak them up and counter in to space when we inevitably lose possession, hence, our defenders are exposed.
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Kin 'ell! All season its been the defence thats crap, mid season, the goalkeeper, late season its the attack that's crap and now it's the midfield that's not performing!

Who's next?
 
Originally posted by fjred:
<strong>Kin 'ell! All season its been the defence thats crap, mid season, the goalkeeper, late season its the attack that's crap and now it's the midfield that's not performing!

Who's next?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Generally we'd start demonstrating against the manager, the chairman, the referee, and Brian Kidd..but fortunately the season ended before things could get any worse.
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Originally posted by christiepark_boy:
<strong>

Generally we'd start demonstrating against the manager, the chairman, the referee, and Brian Kidd..but fortunately the season ended before things could get any worse.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Maybe you would but don't include me in that 'we' because I try not to associate myself with dickheads
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Originally posted by fjred:
<strong>Kin 'ell! All season its been the defence thats crap, mid season, the goalkeeper, late season its the attack that's crap and now it's the midfield that's not performing!

Who's next?</strong><hr></blockquote> :rolleyes:

None of us unblinkered posters said anyone was crap pal ... Stop being so sensationalistic.

We're merely pointing out that the midfield has to take some responsibility for the much maligned defensive frailties that happened this year ...

OPEN YOUR EYES!
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Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>Everytime one person says "Maybe we should sell Scholes/Giggs/Butt etc" one other person comes out and says "That would break up the best midfield in the world!" and accuse the first person of blasphey.

Too many idiots are blaming the defence for our lack of silverware, but how many games have our defence lost for us? 4? 5? We've lost alot more games than that!

Too often our midfield has failed to win us the game, a legitimiate loss, no individual errors (Barthez style), just straightforward outplayed, outbattled, outsmarted etc. The goals conceded have been earned, and that means that the team lost a battle, that the goal was NOT some freak individual error. Where are these battles won and lost?

Our defence did not get us knocked out of the FA Cup, or the Champions League. We failed to score in the FA Cup and we failed to win in the Champions League.

Many of the goals we've conceded have actually been down to the midfield not doing their job. Look at all midfields across Europe and how they close down players, our team hardly does it. Look how easy it has been for good teams to totally kill us off. How easy it is to totally eliminate Giggs from a game, its embarassing that we need TWO defensive midfielders to actually look remotely solid. That even with 5 midfielders teams just walk through us like water. Its actually been our defence that has stopped this continuous onslaught from better teams where our midfield disappears. Ball goes upfield, comes right back down, defence clears, ball comes right back down. We're bound to concede goals like that!

Some of you people need to realise that for 2-3 years now we have been going down and that means that the players haven't played as well and the manager hasn't been as effective. So therefore things need improving and you CANNOT rule out selling some of these players. I am not calling for it to happen, nor do I blame anyone for our lack of success. I am just open to change, and am annoye at people thinking everything is ok except our defence. Do you lot actually watch the games? Or just read what journalists have to say?

We have finished THIRD ladies and gentlemen, its annoying that some of you still think that everything is fine and dandy and all we need is 2 CBs and we'll get the Treble. :mad: </strong><hr></blockquote>

I totally agree with that analysis. It's not the players I blame, they're all great, but we need a midfield less porous. Put Zidane, Figo, Rivaldo and Beckham together, it would not work !
Vieira with Keano, we would be unbeatable !
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Originally posted by Jopub the Gooner:
<strong>F**K ORF MATE :D <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[No No]" /> <img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" />

Your'e not aving him .</strong><hr></blockquote>

True but neiter will you because the word is he's gunna be sold unless he signs this summer, something which I doubt he'll do, the only reason he's kissing Arsenals Arse is so its harder for the club to sell him and he loses out on his bosman to Real and the nice big signing on fee awwwww
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Originally posted by MW16:
<strong>

Maybe you would but don't include me in that 'we' because I try not to associate myself with dickheads</strong><hr></blockquote>

Humour wasted again i see.....
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Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>

..that ability and willingness to take the game and make it yours. After that everything else will follow.

This is why we need Veron to stay cos he can do this also, perhaps when Giggs or Scholes cannot.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

sorry mate dont agree with the Veron point at all. In fact i find it laughable. Veron certainly has the ability to do it,agreed, because ive seen it at the other teams he's played for.
But apart from maybe 5 games (top estimate) this season, i have not seen the willingness from Veron to go out there and say "i am the man, this is my pitch...gimme that fecking ball and ill show you what I can do" or words to that in argie. He's wandered about, hit a few nice passes here and there but in all honesty has done feck all.I destest the way he hid at the back in the recent EC match when we needed him up the pitch trying to make things happen. He is not a quarterback, Centre halfs will pick off most of his long balls no problem. The way he hid like that really sickened me, as much as Yorkies stupid grin last season when we;d just got beaten.It looked like he had no hunger & that for a player of his reputation is a disgrace. I cannot be shaken from my belief that our beloved United team is definately weaker with him in it. If Veron is around next season then he needs to stand up and be counted from the very first minute. I think it was a two pronged attack from Keane to both Veron AND Giggsy, who certainly hasnt lived up to standards this year. He's at his peak now where he should be doing it consistently.
But then again,maybe Giggsy is just picking up bad habits from Veron ;)
In roundup, theyd both better sort it out before Keano sorts them <img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" />
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Originally posted by golden_blunder:
<strong>I destest the way he hid at the back in the recent EC match when we needed him up the pitch trying to make things happen. He is not a quarterback, Centre halfs will pick off most of his long balls no problem. The way he hid like that really sickened me,</strong><hr></blockquote>Absolutely fecking amazing comment.

He was told to do that, I saw Fergie waving him back! Keano and Larry moved up front leaving only Dinny and Micky at the back. Seba played in the middle of the defence coz Fergie put him there!

<img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" />
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Originally posted by True Treble Reds:
<strong>Absolutely fecking amazing comment.

He was told to do that, I saw Fergie waving him back! Keano and Larry moved up front leaving only Dinny and Micky at the back. Seba played in the middle of the defence coz Fergie put him there!

<img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

i didnt see that, bit if that happened then somethings not right there in Fergies head, i mean putting our 36 year old CB up front when we're chasing a goal, and putting our world-class 28million pound attacking midfielder to CB.....either Fergies mad <img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" /> or....
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Originally posted by Jopub the Gooner:
<strong>Now you're talking .

Fergy lost you that match in Germany, clear as day</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> the point i was trying to make was that he trusted an aging centre half more to try and get a goal than our "world class 28million pound attacking midfielder" :sarcasticsmiley:

A blind man could have told them that the Germans were picking long passes off quite easily, so how Veron was going to hurt them from back there is beyond me. In fact the bald muppet almost cost us another goal against.
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None of us unblinkered posters said anyone was crap pal ... Stop being so sensationalistic.
------------------------------------------------

Stop lashing out in every direction! We finished third in the PL and went out the CL in the semi's on the away goal rule.

Finishing third is, admittedly, our worst performance for 10 years. Giggs aint set the world alight this season, Veron has underperformed and Becks was spasmodic. I've said elsewhere that the defence has been our problem - even with Stam, remember Fulham on day 1 and the first half in the CS - and if our midfield had not spent so much f'king time shoring up the defence they may have been able to concentrate on the opposing goalposts as usual!

This would have benefited us in the 6 matches we lost before xmas. I'm less concerned about boro. we tend to get 1 like that every season but the nub was the sloppy game we played before xmas costing 18pts.
 
Nice topic.

People don't seem to understand that defending is a team effort, not just the responsibility of the 4 men at the back.

This season, our midfield has been overrun too easily. Look at the number of times when the opposition has been able to recieve the ball and turn towards goal undisturbed by our players. The space between our back 4 and midfield has been far to big in a lot of games.
A huge part of Liverpool's success this year has been due to their ability to keep their two 4's close together, denying their opposition space between 20 and 30 yards from their goal.

It's never easy being a defender if the opposition can run straight at you 20 yards out. I don't know whether the defence should push higher or the midfield drop lower, but this is a problem that has to be looked into before next season.
 
Originally posted by True Treble Reds:
<strong> :rolleyes:

Obviously Blanc was put up there for his aerial threat, anyone could see that ... Oh hold on, apparently not.</strong><hr></blockquote>

if thats the case why were they still trying to run down blind alleys instead of hoofing it into the box? anyway im not critical of that, we've done it in the past with Bruce & Pally. I am critical of throwing Veron into Cb in that one, he couldnt hurt Bayer from there.
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Originally posted by golden_blunder:
<strong>

if thats the case why were they still trying to run down blind alleys instead of hoofing it into the box? anyway im not critical of that, we've done it in the past with Bruce & Pally. I am critical of throwing Veron into Cb in that one, he couldnt hurt Bayer from there.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I just think that Alex had tried him on the right, up front, in the middle and he's failed miserably at all of them, so centre back was the last place to try - and he was fecking useless at that too.
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Well, maybe the most obvious matches where we lost it in the midfield were against Bayer Leverkusen home+away. We could rarely get through their midfield, and they however, walked through us at will. I saw them challenging players and marking them whenever a ball gets passed to them, and this put us into pressure and we ran out of ppl to pass the ball to. Whenever they got the ball however, I didn't see United players come at them no, we let them pass from left to right, do what they want, while time ran out. It was frustrating to watch.
 
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