STOP looking for complicated problems

SER19

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Our players aren't good enough. It's a top 6 squad. Not close to a title winning one. So why should we expect more? (basic workrate aside)

We know, and have known for years, that several of these players, who still start too frequently, are simply not good enough for us to aim higher than 4th-6th. This isnt personal or an attack on these players, but it shows that recruitment, recruitment, recruitment, is the only way we get out of this horrible decade.

McTominay, starting in a midfield is absolute madness, unless youre looking for a 8-17th finish. He's not good at any of the things a top clubs midfields are good at. Its beyond belief that this is the guy we're turning to tonight. Next to an 18 year old. Absolutely two brazilian internationals will run them ragged.

Martial. Just stop. I dont think even any of his biggest fans on here would expect anything at this stage, away at newcastle, other than an invisible showing. An injury prone, non prolific, physically weak striker.

Rashford. Probably the biggest problem this season. Who here wouldn't swap him for Antony Gordon. Last seasons showing was a curse, as for the best part of a decade he too has been an inconsistent, non prolific player who doesn't excel at anything really, other than pace.

AWB. A massively improved player and an excellent defender, but again, simply lacks what is needed and what you can see at top clubs all over europe when it comes to attacking, intelligence, passing range and basic technique.

You'll never have a full squad of world class players and plenty of players we have are good enough to be part of a squad. But garnacho isnt there yet. Hojlund isnt there yet. Varane and Casemiro are quite clearly past their best.

This is the bulk of the squad. Has the recruitment under ten hag been good enough? Time will tell. I think that Onana, Mount, Hojlund, yes even Antony can all be part of a top team. Hopefully mainoo and garnacho emerge and reach their potential. But replacing the core of this squad with simply better players is essential. Recent windows just havent done it well enough, pre ten hag windows have proven to be disastrous.

Look at newcastles recruitment. Joelinton, Guimaraes, Gordon, Isak, Trippier - all players they knew exactly what they wanted to do with. Ourselves and Chelsea are miles behind when it comes to spotting what we actually need.

Adding here to avoid a new thread, as im talking about player quality. A poll would be nice.

Who would win the league?- Guardiola with this United squad, or Ten hag with City's squad. I dont think it's even close to be honest. This squad is incapable of winning a league title in my opinion. Guardiola would maybe get more in some areas, but be real. Martial, McTominay, Rashford, Wan Bissaka, Dalot, and more, simply arent up to the level he'd need where pure ability, intelligence and talent is concerned.
 
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The effort is the main fecking point. Put in a shift or feck off out the club.
 
Sure, but why is the recruitment so consistently terrible? That's a complicated issue.

At any rate, it doesn't seem like we're doing anything to fix it so I don't expect anything.
 
Joelinton was bought as a striker under Steve Bruce but was so shite in front of goal he got converted to a midfielder. Other than that your point stands.
 
Wish we'd stop this nonsense...most of us would take our squad over theirs, on paper. Just look back at the mass turning up of noses when Trippier was linked with us. Its tactics and coaching. Swap the management teams around, give it a few weeks and I'd put my houses and kids on us stuffing them.


Also a top 6 squad should he performing a zillion times better than we are...were playing like a team in the lower third of the table.
 
Only one of those in the starting tonight was a Ten Hag signing. We’re a disjointed mess of Solskjaer / Mourinho and haven’t built a team to play a particular way. I can’t wait for us to have a competent recruitment structure- until that is sorted we’ll continue to play in fits and starts as ultimately the collective isn’t good enough
 
Not sure why you've thrown Chelsea in there at the end. They have the makings of a far better squad than ours. Favourites to beat us on Wednesday.
 
Biggest issue is our manager not being good enough. Then comes a lot of these players but they sure are better than what we are showing week in week out.
 
The effort is literally the main point! How many duels did our players win? How many second balls?? How many times did we let the opponent run a few metres with the ball before bothering to close them down?? What about our players basically giving up trying to chase the ball when they lose it???

The first step is effort. You have to prove that you deserve to be on the pitch and fight for 90 mins. If you can't do that you don't deserve to win no matter your talent.
 
abailey123 said:
Only one of those in the starting tonight was a Ten Hag signing. We’re a disjointed mess of Solskjaer / Mourinho and haven’t built a team to play a particular way. I can’t wait for us to have a competent recruitment structure- until that is sorted we’ll continue to play in fits and starts as ultimately the collective isn’t good enough
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A bunch of his signings were on the bench, so that was his decision?
 
Superden said:
Wish we'd stop this nonsense...most of us would take our squad over theirs, on paper. Just look back at the mass turning up of noses when Trippier was linked with us. Its tactics and coaching. Swap the management teams around, give it a few weeks and I'd put my houses and kids on us stuffing them.


Also a top 6 squad should he performing a zillion times better than we are...were playing like a team in the lower third of the table.
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No chance mctominay starts for newcastle. Not in a million years he starts for pool or city. I like the guy, but come on. You think Martial would start for Eddie Howe? Wan Bisakka over Trippier? Away from tonight, other than counter attacking, tell me what technical ability would make marcus rashford a target for a top class manager. Im talking technical ability.

Our squad, on paper, is a top 6 squad at best. I include an ageing and weary Varane and Casemiro there. Look past the names. Of course other things can improve, but we have absolutely no sensible grounds to expect more than top 4 with this squad, and I have very little faith we will get the recruitment right.
 
There are a host of very complicated problems and you managed to raise several in your OP.

We can't just sit back and say, 'oh well, our players aren't good enough, this is the best you can expect to get'.

Solving the issue of Rashford's form is complicated. We desperately need his form from last year. I don't think anyone expected him to regress as much as he did.

We have one of the most expensive squads in world football that is somehow always in need of an overhaul. How do we overhaul a squad with the wages we're paying out? That's a very complicated problem.

And in terms of talent, we have more on paper than some of the teams around us. Villa, Brighton, Spurs, etc. How do we get our team to play at least to the sum of it's parts?

All you've done is list problems, and while some are easy to identify, it doesn't make them any less complicated to handle
 
DavelinaJolie said:
A bunch of his signings were on the bench, so that was his decision?
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To be fair, thats for a variety of reasons. Antony and Hojlund both returning from layoffs. So from his signings who are 'starters' I would say youre looking at Onana, Mount, Casemiro, Antony, Hojlund. I don't have huge problems with any of these guys where attitude and effort is concerned at least.
 
The squad is lacking in many departments, yes, but our problems can’t be reduced to that. Other managers are capable of getting significantly worse squads playing good football while we can’t even do the basics right.

It all comes down to the manager either not having the right ideas or him not being able to coach the players according to his ideas. Also, he’s responsible for assembling this gutless, unintelligent and athletically mediocre squad. So, however you look at it, EtH is to blame. How we fix it, I don’t know…
 
There is a distinct lack of passion, desire, attitude, application. Call it what you want, Until the core of the whole club is re-set we will continue to be also rans. Every top team has more passion to win. If you are not going to do the hard yards then leave. We do not have the ruthless leadership in place throughout the whole club
 
Go look at our first XI and go look at Newcastle's. Better yet, go look at Newcastle's vs ours in the Carabao Cup with 6 fullbacks on the pitch when they played us off the park. They've had 6 months more under Eddie Howe than us. They got relegated with some of these players, but it doesn't matter who's on the pitch they play the same.
 
SER19 said:
No chance mctominay starts for newcastle. Not in a million years he starts for pool or city. I like the guy, but come on. You think Martial would start for Eddie Howe? Wan Bisakka over Trippier? Away from tonight, other than counter attacking, tell me what technical ability would make marcus rashford a target for a top class manager. Im talking technical ability.

Our squad, on paper, is a top 6 squad at best. I include an ageing and weary Varane and Casemiro there. Look past the names. Of course other things can improve, but we have absolutely no sensible grounds to expect more than top 4 with this squad, and I have very little faith we will get the recruitment right.
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For a top 6 squad, we're struggling in 8th, and struggle to compete when up against any half decent side. And yes on paper we have a squad stuffed with higher rated players...the fact they aren't performing and why should be the question. Look at Mctom, for all his limitations he looks far better (playing out of position) for Scotland than he does for us.
 
SER19 said:
To be fair, thats for a variety of reasons. Antony and Hojlund both returning from layoffs. So from his signings who are 'starters' I would say youre looking at Onana, Mount, Casemiro, Antony, Hojlund. I don't have huge problems with any of these guys where attitude and effort is concerned at least.
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I don't really accept that Antony or Amrabat could not have started, but putting that aside. But surely he saw that first half and decided it was fine to continue on with Mainoo getting overrun and the right wing being battered?

How many times does he have to see this set up get overrun in midfield trying three different players in the 6, before he thinks maybe this isn't working? He may have a preferred approach, but he's also not adjusting to obvious deficiencies in the squad or the issues his set up creates. These are the players he has, so he needs to set them up in a way they can play together as a unit, not just keep expecting them to do things they can't.

Eddie Howe has a patchwork team out there right now with players signed under different managers, they still managed to show up.
 
SER19 said:
Our players aren't good enough. It's a top 6 squad. Not close to a title winning one. So why should we expect more? (basic workrate aside)

We know, and have known for years, that several of these players, who still start too frequently, are simply not good enough for us to aim higher than 4th-6th. This isnt personal or an attack on these players, but it shows that recruitment, recruitment, recruitment, is the only way we get out of this horrible decade.

McTominay, starting in a midfield is absolute madness, unless youre looking for a 8-17th finish. He's not good at any of the things a top clubs midfields are good at. Its beyond belief that this is the guy we're turning to tonight. Next to an 18 year old. Absolutely two brazilian internationals will run them ragged.

Martial. Just stop. I dont think even any of his biggest fans on here would expect anything at this stage, away at newcastle, other than an invisible showing. An injury prone, non prolific, physically weak striker.

Rashford. Probably the biggest problem this season. Who here wouldn't swap him for Antony Gordon. Last seasons showing was a curse, as for the best part of a decade he too has been an inconsistent, non prolific player who doesn't excel at anything really, other than pace.

AWB. A massively improved player and an excellent defender, but again, simply lacks what is needed and what you can see at top clubs all over europe when it comes to attacking, intelligence, passing range and basic technique.

You'll never have a full squad of world class players and plenty of players we have are good enough to be part of a squad. But garnacho isnt there yet. Hojlund isnt there yet. Varane and Casemiro are quite clearly past their best.

This is the bulk of the squad. Has the recruitment under ten hag been good enough? Time will tell. I think that Onana, Mount, Hojlund, yes even Antony can all be part of a top team. Hopefully mainoo and garnacho emerge and reach their potential. But replacing the core of this squad with simply better players is essential. Recent windows just havent done it well enough, pre ten hag windows have proven to be disastrous.

Look at newcastles recruitment. Joelinton, Guimaraes, Gordon, Isak, Trippier - all players they knew exactly what they wanted to do with. Ourselves and Chelsea are miles behind when it comes to spotting what we actually need.
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The irony is that without McTom, Utd’s manager would’ve already been sacked.
 
SER19 said:
No chance mctominay starts for newcastle. Not in a million years he starts for pool or city. I like the guy, but come on. You think Martial would start for Eddie Howe? Wan Bisakka over Trippier? Away from tonight, other than counter attacking, tell me what technical ability would make marcus rashford a target for a top class manager. Im talking technical ability.

Our squad, on paper, is a top 6 squad at best. I include an ageing and weary Varane and Casemiro there. Look past the names. Of course other things can improve, but we have absolutely no sensible grounds to expect more than top 4 with this squad, and I have very little faith we will get the recruitment right.
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He could have played Shaw at left back and Dalot right back. He could take McTominay out of the 11 at any point. We’ve looked shite with Højlund. We’ve got a really expensive right winger to play instead of Rashford. Still shit.

this is nothing to do with player quality. It’s amazing that people can still think this is the problem.
 
AnotherLondonManc said:
There are a host of very complicated problems and you managed to raise several in your OP.

We can't just sit back and say, 'oh well, our players aren't good enough, this is the best you can expect to get'.

Solving the issue of Rashford's form is complicated. We desperately need his form from last year. I don't think anyone expected him to regress as much as he did.

We have one of the most expensive squads in world football that is somehow always in need of an overhaul. How do we overhaul a squad with the wages we're paying out? That's a very complicated problem.

And in terms of talent, we have more on paper than some of the teams around us. Villa, Brighton, Spurs, etc. How do we get our team to play at least to the sum of it's parts?

All you've done is list problems, and while some are easy to identify, it doesn't make them any less complicated to handle
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But this wont happen. Last year was the outlier. Marcus Rashford isnt an excellent player. He's good. Hes good at some things, and he hit a real hit streak last season. Take it away and there is very little to give hope his 'form' can improve'. Hes just not excellent.

Yes youre right, but recruitment involves sorting those issues. Timing the release of players, having a good conveyor belt of ins and outs.
 
Dan_F said:
He could have played Shaw at left back and Dalot right back. He could take McTominay out of the 11 at any point. We’ve looked shite with Højlund. We’ve got a really expensive right winger to play instead of Rashford. Still shit.

this is nothing to do with player quality. It’s amazing that people can still think this is the problem.
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Im going to add this to the OP to avoid a new thread.

Who do you think would win the league, Ten Hag in charge of citys current squad, or Guardiola in charge of this. Keep in mind how badly guardiola struggled at times in his first season.
 
The quality thing is overblown. Newcastle don't have world beaters. The noticeable difference is they play with very high intensity, run and press like crazy, and put 200% of efforts in every ball. Man United don't do that.

This is a clear coaching issue imo. United need a manager with a style of high intensity like how Klopp transformed Liverpool in that regard within few months. Bring on a manager who plays high pressing and forces the players to play like maniacs and watch a different Man United.

The manager dictates the intensity of the team.
 
You could make an argument for everywhere on the pitch but I think at the moment it’s midfield and the front 3 where we’re really short.
Need a top midfielder and right winger at the very least.
 
A top 6 squad with a functioning system would have won an away game against a top half side in the past 18 months, or at the very least had some competent performances and not deserve a 3 or 4-0 loss every time. A top 6 squad with a functioning system would be qualifying from our CL group and would know how to defend.

It's not "players aren't good enough". It very rarely is for us. They aren't good enough for the title of course, but they are more than good enough to be a competitive side.
 
Yes the answer is simple, the manager is doing a terrible job and has set the players up to fail. Since that first game against Wolves it’s been an absolute disaster for 80% of games. No team with the players we have should be that bad without being set up that badly. These players finished 3rd last year and many were 2nd previously and have won things at other clubs. They’re not all duds. The manager has lost the players and/or the tactics are terrible.

Nobody is saying we should be beating Man City with these players but you’re telling me we can’t do better than being outplayed conceding 20 shots a game again and again?
 
There’s only about 6 of current squad I would keep. The rest could leave, I want to see minimum 100% effort week after week. Sadly most are not United players
 
Our squad isn't great. It's still better than ETH is making them look though. A better coach has this lot finishing 5th at least I reckon.
 
el3mel said:
The quality thing is overblown. Newcastle don't have world beaters. The noticeable difference is they play with very high intensity, run and press like crazy, and put 200% of efforts in every ball. Man United don't do that.

This is a clear coaching issue imo. United need a manager with a style of high intensity like how Klopp transformed Liverpool in that regard within few months. Bring on a manager who plays high pressing and forces the players to play like maniacs and watch a different Man United.

The manager dictates the intensity of the team.
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Did you ever see Ten Hag's ajax? We've said the same thing about intensity under several different managers? are all of them just not able to coach a team to run? Get real, the common thread is so many of these players. McTominay will run all day, but he's not good on the ball. You need both. Fred was the same. Even if rashford runs all day, or wan bissaka, they're too poor on the ball. Martial is great on the ball but doesnt like moving.
 
Blood Mage said:
Our squad isn't great. It's still better than ETH is making them look though. A better coach has this lot finishing 5th at least I reckon.
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He got us to 3rd last season. That's maxing out I think.
 
SER19 said:
Did you ever see Ten Hag's ajax? We've said the same thing about intensity under several different managers? are all of them just not able to coach a team to run? Get real, the common thread is so many of these players. McTominay will run all day, but he's not good on the ball. You need both. Fred was the same. Even if rashford runs all day, or wan bissaka, they're too poor on the ball. Martial is great on the ball but doesnt like moving.
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It's easy to implement this in a shit league like Eredivisie when you're managing the most dominant force in the country and playing fodders every week. Different story in the Premier League.

We haven't hired any manager who plays a high pressing, high intensity game. LVG is a possession based coach, Mourinho is well known for his reactive football that favors defending and waiting for mistakes rather than pressing, and Ole's style was transitions and relying on individual moments and counters. We haven't hired anyone like, say, Klopp.

It's an issue of running. It' the issue of playing with high intensity, pressing all games and putting 200% of effort in every single challenge. Managers are the one who dictate this. Not all of them play with such high intensity as I mentioned above.
 
SER19 said:
To be fair, thats for a variety of reasons. Antony and Hojlund both returning from layoffs. So from his signings who are 'starters' I would say youre looking at Onana, Mount, Casemiro, Antony, Hojlund. I don't have huge problems with any of these guys where attitude and effort is concerned at least.
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Yeah good point. The ETH signings are mainly strong hardworking characters. The quality could be better but the mentality (and probably the overall profile) is decent.

It’s mainly the players he inherited who don’t have the required steel / work ethic / physicality.

It’s all very disappointing but, despite the regression in results and performances, the foundations are slowly being improved.

The things that are difficult to accept are the selections and substitutions; we’re all armchair managers but, as far as I can gather, not many of us think he’s getting these things right. Possibly this problem goes away once the squad is further developed. Who knows.
 
el3mel said:
It's easy to implement this in a shit league like Eredivisie when you're managing the most dominant force in the country and playing fodders every week. Different story in the Premier League.

We haven't hired any manager who plays a high pressing, high intensity game. LVG is a possession based coach, Mourinho is well known for his reactive football that favors defending and waiting for mistakes rather than pressing, and Ole's style was transitions and relying on individual moments and counters. We haven't hired anyone like, say, Klopp.

It's an issue of running. It' the issue of playing with high intensity, pressing all games and putting 200% of effort in every single challenge. Managers are the one who dictate this. Not all of them play with such high intensity as I mentioned above.
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This seems like an incredibly simplified theory to be honest. If it were this simple, then why do all the top 'pressing' coaches, explicitly go and sign the players who can do it for them. You think Klopp would get this set of players to the level of his liverpool team? I'm talking Alisson in goal, alexander arnold and robertson full backs, Van Dijk and another centre back, years of attackers Salah, Mane, Firmino. It didn't just happen by 'coaching.' these are all incredibly gifted players who are comfortable on the ball, aggressive by nature and clearly have winning attitudes. He recruited most of them and he kept the guys who he thought were up to scratch. It took time and Ten Hag might play differently with liverpool, but he'd mop the floor with this united team with liverpool.

Once Klopp had a winning formula, its easier to recruit on a player by player in and out basis. Rebuilding is the part that takes time and Ten Hag took on a mess.
 
OrcaFat said:
Yeah good point. The ETH signings are mainly strong hardworking characters. The quality could be better but the mentality (and probably the overall profile) is decent.

It’s mainly the players he inherited who don’t have the required steel / work ethic / physicality.

It’s all very disappointing but, despite the regression in results and performances, the foundations are slowly being improved.

The things that are difficult to accept are the selections and substitutions; we’re all armchair managers but, as far as I can gather, not many of us think he’s getting these things right. Possibly this problem goes away once the squad is further developed. Who knows.
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This what we have to trust. Ive likened it before to slowly clearing an overgrown garden of weeds. It takes time to get all the weeds out and there'll be overlap of weeds and new plants. If we just change the manager over and over, all we're getting is weeds and a mismatch of new plants. Im sure Ive worded it better than that before, but you get my point. It will take about 4-5 out, 4-5 in for several summers, signed well according to age and youth players coming through.
 
bosnian_red said:
A top 6 squad with a functioning system would have won an away game against a top half side in the past 18 months, or at the very least had some competent performances and not deserve a 3 or 4-0 loss every time. A top 6 squad with a functioning system would be qualifying from our CL group and would know how to defend.

It's not "players aren't good enough". It very rarely is for us. They aren't good enough for the title of course, but they are more than good enough to be a competitive side.
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The players were competitive last season, though, weren’t they? Probably they will get it together at some point and be “competitive” again.

It’s no good saying “the players aren’t good enough for the title of course” and at the same time expecting them to compete consistently. We need to build a team that is full of players who ARE good enough for the title. I couldn’t care less who does it but it is a big job which has to be carried through to the end. We should do a bit better with what we’ve got but that is a distraction from the bigger issue of rebuilding the club from the ground up.
 
SER19 said:
This seems like an incredibly simplified theory to be honest. If it were this simple, then why do all the top 'pressing' coaches, explicitly go and sign the players who can do it for them. You think Klopp would get this set of players to the level of his liverpool team? I'm talking Alisson in goal, alexander arnold and robertson full backs, Van Dijk and another centre back, years of attackers Salah, Mane, Firmino. It didn't just happen by 'coaching.' these are all incredibly gifted players who are comfortable on the ball, aggressive by nature and clearly have winning attitudes. He recruited most of them and he kept the guys who he thought were up to scratch. It took time and Ten Hag might play differently with liverpool, but he'd mop the floor with this united team with liverpool.
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Klopp showed clear signs of his high intensity style in his first few months of Liverpool reign. The team immediately was pressing and running more than under Rodgers. After that it's easy to sign players that will fit into such style. You're getting it wrong, you implement and set your style first, see who can and can't apply it, then start buying key players who will implement it better. It's easier to buy players when you actually have a strategy. United don't have strategy and they're just buying random players every summer hoping for it to work. That's why most of our signings ultimately flop. It's a team with no direction and no identity. Clear manager's issue.

Ten Hag would have never built a similar Liverpool to the one Klopp built.

Actually Ten Hag is probably the most clueless one of our managers post Ferguson. Even with our clear lack of strategy in transfer market, you can't deny LVG, Mourinho and Ole all showed their style of play on the pitch. LVG played possession football and got some results while having half the squad injured. Mourinho played his defensive, reactive football he's always known for and got some results, and Ole played his transition based football and also got some results.
These styles were shit ? Sure, but they actually implemented them. Ten Hag's Man United is actually the only one whom you can't point any clear style of play they're trying to implement. Just random shit every game, with random signings that don't even fit in the team.
 
SER19 said:
Did you ever see Ten Hag's ajax? We've said the same thing about intensity under several different managers? are all of them just not able to coach a team to run? Get real, the common thread is so many of these players. McTominay will run all day, but he's not good on the ball. You need both. Fred was the same. Even if rashford runs all day, or wan bissaka, they're too poor on the ball. Martial is great on the ball but doesnt like moving.
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The bolded isn't really true. McTominay jogs everywhere in a way that means he ends up high on the distance covered charts, but very little of it is at high intensity. The same way that Eriksen was one of our higher distance covered last season.
 
We had lost that match before they set foot on the pitch. You could see it in our players.

That has nothing to do with ability.
 
el3mel said:
Klopp showed clear signs of his high intensity style in his first few months of Liverpool reign. The team immediately was pressing and running more than under Rodgers. After that it's easy to sign players that will fit into such style. You're getting it wrong, you implement and set your style first, see who can and can't apply it, then start buying key players who will implement it better. It's easier to buy players when you actually have a strategy. United don't have strategy and they're just buying random players every summer hoping for it to work. That's why most of our signings ultimately flop. It's a team with no direction and no identity. Clear manager's issue.

Ten Hag would have never built a similar Liverpool to the one Klopp built.

Actually Ten Hag is probably the most clueless one of our managers post Ferguson. Even with our clear lack of strategy in transfer market, you can't deny LVG, Mourinho and Ole all showed their style of play on the pitch. LVG played possession football and got some results while having half the squad injured. Mourinho played his defensive, reactive football he's always known for and got some results, and Ole played his transition based football and also got some results.
These styles were shit ? Sure, but they actually implemented them. Ten Hag's Man United is actually the only one whom you can't point any clear style of play they're trying to implement. Just random shit every game, with random signings that don't even fit in the team.
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Well, Im going to sign out of this back and forth. I dont see any room for reasonable exchange or anything but a round in circles sort of conversation - you seem well set in your opinion on the manager, I see no point in trying to change your mind. You neglect though, that rogers had a style not dissimilar to klopp. I agree that we've jumped from manager to manager without any sort of continuity, and each succesive manager thereby inherits an even more disjointed squad.
 
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