Still 4-5-1 next season!

uranushk1

I'd Bellion if I said I were an optimist
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<a href="https://www.redcafe.net/news/story.php3?id=20020725090654" target="_blank">https://www.redcafe.net/news/story.php3?id=20020725090654</a>

In this interview Fergie said that "When we operated with three in midfield there is no doubt we controlled most of the games and our European form was terrific. We are very hard to beat with three in the central midfield."

Is it a strong hint that we will still go for 4-5-1? Now Dwight has left, if we still didn't sign a new striker before the season starts, then we can be further confirmed that we will continue to play 4-5-1 in the new season.

Not against 4-5-1 though. It has its advantage, but I just wonder who is going to play in that "hole" in that formation.
 
Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong><a href="https://www.redcafe.net/news/story.php3?id=20020725090654" target="_blank">https://www.redcafe.net/news/story.php3?id=20020725090654</a>

In this interview Fergie said that "When we operated with three in midfield there is no doubt we controlled most of the games and our European form was terrific. We are very hard to beat with three in the central midfield."

Is it a strong hint that we will still go for 4-5-1? Now Dwight has left, if we still didn't sign a new striker before the season starts, then we can be further confirmed that we will continue to play 4-5-1 in the new season.

Not against 4-5-1 though. It has its advantage, but I just wonder who is going to play in that "hole" in that formation.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's what I got from that article as well. Indeed, if United don't sign another striker before the season starts, then we would for sure be using that formation. 3 strikers for a 442 formation is not enough.

Hope the application is better this time round though.
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The 4-5-1 formation is the worst thing to happen to United since Roy Keane's cruciate ligament injury. both effectively cost us winning trophies. the only reason Fergie sticks to this stupid formation is to accomodate Veron and Scholes, neither of whom play well in this formation anyway. and the one who suffers and loses out is inevitably Ole. and that really makes me sick.
 
Is there a statto amongst us who can work out the results for various formations so we can see which was most successful.

If we need to........
 
Alright... 4-5-1... Beat Leeds, Chelsea and La Coruna, draw with Leverkusen twice...

All and all, statistics won't do that formation justice ofcource, but part of it is because it was used for the tougher matches. If we use it in the right matches (and Blackburn away for example isn't the right match), it can work very well. It did.
 
Originally posted by Amir:
<strong>Alright... 4-5-1... Beat Leeds, Chelsea and La Coruna, draw with Leverkusen twice...

All and all, statistics won't do that formation justice ofcource, but part of it is because it was used for the tougher matches. If we use it in the right matches (and Blackburn away for example isn't the right match), it can work very well. It did.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree totally. Use it where it will work best. Not like last season, when we tried going with it all the time.
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Most of our defeats came when we used your favoured 4-4-2. 4-5-1 only got us more draws because last season what the system lacked was movement and aplication. IF you remember the Newcastle game at St James' Park our movement was terrific. And with Scholes operating well in the hole for once we blew Newcastle away.(Jus a pity our defence ruined it all :( ) What of against Deportivo? If we can play that way with all our midfielders on form we would be ruthless and devastating imo. The only indigredient lacking in a 4-5-1 was some one to operate and score in the hole acuse Giigs is a pathetic finsher why Scholes for some strange reason did'nt settle there. I feel Forlan will succeed in the hole this season . He has the ball skils and the vision required while his scoring boots are returning. We just need back up for him in that role then all will be well.
 
Originally posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber:
<strong>Most of our defeats came when we used your favoured 4-4-2. 4-5-1 only got us more draws because last season what the system lacked was movement and aplication. IF you remember the Newcastle game at St James' Park our movement was terrific. And with Scholes operating well in the hole for once we blew Newcastle away.(Jus a pity our defence ruined it all :( ) </strong><hr></blockquote>

Funnily enough we actually started that match with 4-4-2 only to change to 4-5-1 later when Scholes came on for Cole.
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With Rio in the back and hopefully a fit Gaz or even a new sideback, can we maybe try a 3-5-2 ?

Just a thought <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
 
Originally posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber:
<strong>My point exactly.Dont you remeber that 4-4-2 got us three goals down in the first place with cearly no hope of recovering? 4-4-2 got us 3 goals down in the first place.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Two goals down (1:3) ;)

But in all honestly it really wasn't the system. It was bad defending and one piece of bad goalkeeping from Barthez. After all, look at the clumsy fourth goal we ended up conceding.

No formation will help if your back four look like four players each doing his own thing.
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Originally posted by Fawaz:
<strong>With Rio in the back and hopefully a fit Gaz or even a new sideback, can we maybe try a 3-5-2 ?

Just a thought :confused: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Decent though, ain't gonna happen though. You need very good wing backs to pull that one off to a really high level and while Silvestre may do it on the left, we have a gap on the right for a true attacking full back.

Also, we have two of the best wing players in the world in Beckham and Giggs, how do we turn them into quality and stable central midfielders without downloading an editor for Championship manager? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
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4-4-2.. is an outdated system... eg wingers can be easily marked out of the game... i like the 4-5-1 system, the only thing is, we need a foward that can play in the 'hole'.
 
Diego could, so could Giggsy if we sign Duff.

------------------ Barthez ----------------------

Neville ----- Blanc ----- Ferdinand --- Silvestre


Beckham ----- Keane ------- Veron ---------- Duff

------------------- Giggs ------------------------

----------------- Van Nistelrooy -----------------
 
i prefer Giggsy as a winger... i'd love to see Duff or even Diego playing behind the striker...


or even better: If we bought Ronny, i'd say the feck the system..and play 6 foward ;)
 
Originally posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber:
<strong>Most of our defeats came when we used your favoured 4-4-2.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Can you back that up?
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Giggzy,4-5-1 will work with Diego imo. We just need backup. Besides, 4-5-1 works best when a team is in top form. It is a system that depends on alot of movement. Becasue at any instant any of the midfielders can be in the box supporting the main striker. The best examples of this where our Charity Shield display (despite Henchoz good goal keeping) last season and the second half performance away to Newcastle. In full flow and with all that movement our opponents looked lost imo. :)
 
For Livvie 20:
Defeat 1: Against Bolton playing 4-4-2
Defeat 2: Away to Liverpool. 4-4-2
Defeat 3: At home to Chelsea. 4-4-2.
Defeat 4. Away to Newcastle started with a 4-4-2 which left us too much to do in the end as we finished the nacth a goal behind with 4-5-1.
Defeat 5: at home to Middlesboro.
Defeat 6: In the FA cup to Middlesboro.
Defeat 7: At home to West Ham.

need I go on dearie?
:cool:
 
Originally posted by Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber:
<strong>For Livvie 20:
Defeat 1: Against Bolton playing 4-4-2
Defeat 2: Away to Liverpool. 4-4-2
Defeat 3: At home to Chelsea. 4-4-2.
Defeat 4. Away to Newcastle started with a 4-4-2 which left us too much to do in the end as we finished the nacth a goal behind with 4-5-1.
Defeat 5: at home to Middlesboro.
Defeat 6: In the FA cup to Middlesboro.
Defeat 7: At home to West Ham.

need I go on dearie?
:cool: </strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes please. Put the successes in as well, and the failures with 4-5-1, or 4-4-1-1.

And there's really no need to be patronising.
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I think that we had gone as far as we could with 442. Although it works well against most teams in the Premiership, we were getting outplayed in Europe conceeding a lot of possesion to the opposition.

With 451 we can control the game from the midfield much better. I think that it allows our midfielders the freedom to express their talents much more, rather than being fixed into a rigid system. For example, Beckham and Giggs have the freedom to move forward and join the attack or come inside more often.

Last season was our first experiment with 451 and although we did not win anything, I feel that perhaps we needed to take this step backwards to be able to progress. We can now play in two diiferent ways. The opposition will not know which formation to prepare to play against. In the past it was always 442 and they knew exactly what to expect. Against the more difficult teams we have has some success. We blew away Deportivo, Chelsea and Leeds with our phenomenal midfield play. I think we were using the system so much earlier in the season agianst weaker teams (eg BB away) just to prepare ourselves for Europe, simply to bed in the system.

Imo we just need the right link player. Giggs is a winger and Scholes a central midfielder.
 
1. 1000 apologies if I seemed patronizing. I did'nt intetend to :o
2.Defeats with 4-5-1:

Defeat 1 and 2: At home to Deportivo and away the first time around.
Defeat 3: At home and away to the Arse.
Defeat 4. At home to Liverpool

I believe that is all. We then beat Deportivo home and away with 4-5-1. Drew with Bayern home and Away. Beat leeds Aawy after drwaing at hom etc. Yet Save for the Chelsea away game I cannot put my finger on a single victory 4-4-2 got us against bigger teams then the Derbies and Fulhams of this World.
 
We have to play 4-5-1 alongside the 4-4-2 system, we need variety and the new coach may be the man to bring out the best in what we have. Forlan could be the player to play in the 'Hole', he has the passing ability, two good feet and can hold up play, I say, go with it.
 
We can't fix at a rigid formation. We must change it according to our opponents. So I think there is no need for us to really list out all result when we played with 4-4-2 vs those played with 4-5-1. There are just too many factors to affect the result of a match. Formation is only a small part of it.
 
Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>We can't fix at a rigid formation. We must change it according to our opponents. So I think there is no need for us to really list out all result when we played with 4-4-2 vs those played with 4-5-1. There are just too many factors to affect the result of a match. Formation is only a small part of it.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Totally agree. We need both formations. And we need to be able to switch mid match if necessary.
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Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>There are just too many factors to affect the result of a match. Formation is only a small part of it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good post that! :)
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The problem with 4-5-1 is that it can leave RVN isolated upfront and almost ineffective. I'm sure he doesn't appreciate that at all. He needs to play off another striker and Paul Scholes tends to play to deep to link up in that formation. 4-5-1 was born out of the fact that we leaked too many goals and Keane had to be deployed further back to supplement the back four. Hopefully with Rio there this won't be necessary so Keane will be able to push forward more often. Of course Rio will have to settle in and establish a partnership with either Blanc, Brown or O'Shea which is probably Fergie's order of preference although I would like that in reverse.
 
i thought we beat Leeds and Chelsea playing 4-4-2. clearly, i was mistaken ;)

we can beat anyone playing either formation (3-5-2 is definitely NOT for us)
if the side have their confidence up, it imply doesn't matter

4-4-2 is better uited to the Prem. because we're playing for points, not GD
in Europe, GD is crucial, hence the 4-5-1 experiment, quite successful, but once again you need a confident side

if we're gifting goals like last season, the only formation that would work is one with two goalkeepers (hopefully the second is not a Barthez clone)
if those errors are gone and the back 4 organised, it really doesn't matter - we can beat most teams in many different ways
when it come to the big games, the tactical approach is safe, but it depends on the side we play, their strengths, formation, individual players and their strengths and so forth...
 
Originally posted by radd:
<strong>i thought we beat Leeds and Chelsea playing 4-4-2. clearly, i was mistaken ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

Ole was the only striker in the lineup against Leeds, while both he and Ruud started against Chelsea, but Solskjaer played wide right with Giggs behind Ruud.
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Does anyone else not like 4-5-1 simply because it's boring. Watching us in Europe last season was reminding me of Liverpool sometimes and playing defensively just doesn't suit our players. The problem is we weren't creative enough last year and I don't think 4-5-1 helped with that. The only thing is we have one too many great midfielders to keep happy with 4-4-2 and one to many strikers to keep happy with 4-5-1
I don't know what Fergie will do but I hope it's a mixture of both because OGS is too good to be sitting on the bench. The only thing I really care about though is that we continue playing creative, flowing and attacking football, it is afterall supposed to be called the beautiful game. :cool:
 
Originally posted by Scholes:
<strong>Does anyone else not like 4-5-1 simply because it's boring. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I thought that when we played the 4-5-1 right we were quite exciting, like at La Coruna. You can't always go gung ho and I suppose we just have to accept the days of 99 and all out attack are gone.
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Originally posted by Amir:
<strong>

I thought that when we played the 4-5-1 right we were quite exciting, like at La Coruna. </strong><hr></blockquote>

spot on .. we dominate the midfield with that formation.
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I know many of you are against the idea of 3-5-2, mostly because you dont feel we have the right players for this formation and even if we did it would be too risky.

I still think its worth a look at if we use the right players:

-------------Barthez-------------

-G.Neville-----Rio-----Slivestre-

---------Keane----Butt-----------

-Beckham------Veron-------Giggs--

---------RVN---------Ole---------

In a 3-5-2 formation there should be atleast 2 Defensive midfielders and we have some of the best in Keane and Butt. Veron can be replaced by Scholes depending on who we play and whos on form.

opinions?
 
I like the 3-5-2 formation, but we don't have the players for it IMO. You need two pure wing backs, and three central defenders.

G Nev and Silvestre would not fit into such a situation. The best we could put up is the following, but Beckham and Giggs are no wing backs.

-------------------- Barthez ---------------------

--------- Brown ------ Rio ------- Blanc ---------

--- Beckham ---------------------------- Giggs ---

----------- Keane ---- Butt ---- Verón -----------

-------------- RVN ----------- Solskjaer ---------

Won't work, and you can't play G Neville and Silvestre with only one CB. It would be suicide!
 
Even better would be Keane, Scholes, and Verón in central midfield, but the trouble is we don't have any wing backs.
 
I've always liked this idea, which is a 4-5-1 pivoting around Butt. Think of it like an inverted V, that flaps like a birds wings as we need to attack and defend.

--------------------- Barthez --------------------

--------------- Rio ----------- Blanc ------------

--- G Nev -------------------------- Silvestre ---

----------------------- Butt ---------------------

------------- Keane ------------ Verón -----------

--- Beckham ---------------------------- Giggs ---

----------------------- RVN ----------------------

In any situation when either Keane or Verón move out of position to join RVN in attack, Butt moves into cover their position and thus keep things tight.

SAF has never tried it though, so I'm probably talking bollocks. :)
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>Even better would be Keane, Scholes, and Verón in central midfield, but the trouble is we don't have any wing backs.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thats true. This should be our 1st XI then:

-----------------Barthez-----------------

--G.Neville--Brown--Ferdinand--Slvestre--

---Beckham----Keane----Veron-----Giggs---

--------------RVN-------Ole--------------

Scholes next to Keane and Veron replaces Ole behind RVN, ie in the hole when using a 4-5-1 formation.
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