Static, slow motion zombie passing
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Gotta love this place sometimes. Being laughed at and lectured to by people who think they're experts on players like Roy Keane despite being 10 years old when they were in their prime. That is if they were even following the club back then. God bless the internet.
Probably because Carrick really isn't that mobile in any way. I won't bring Keane into it, but that's just a fact. Covering 12km over 90 minues on a football match doesn't necessarily mean you're a 'mobile' player, not in the way noodle is talking about.
Take the Carrick love down a notch.
Take the Carrick love down a notch.
Carrick is plenty mobile but his ability to go up and down the pitch is dependent on who we're playing and who he's partnering.
Comparing to keane isn't really worthwhile. End of the day Keane played at a time where the majority of teams played 442, usually quite wide. In the middle it was 2 v 2 most the time so no one was really needed to stay deep beyond a tactical choice such as the diamond. Over the last 10 years or so in England we've seen a big move to teams playing 451 as not loosing has become very important, for some teams more important than winning and with the influence of european football we've seen a big push for more centrally based attacks.
Putting that all together if you're playing in our midfield where we are quite old fashioned in many ways in that we play a 442 or sorts and unlike most teams play very wide, it means if you're a central player not only are you going to be outnumbered in most games, which puts you on the back foot already in terms of mobility but also if you have a partner ie scholes, who doesn't have the physical ability to hold his own and needs protection than you're going to be forced to stay relatively deep.
I said before but if you swapped in clev for Carrick the midfield wouldn't suddenly become more mobile, you'd just have a big gap left in the middle and Scholes not being able to cover it. Additionally if we got pressed we'd still be stuffed because as much as individual ability matters, your partner has a big influence, and scholes doesn't deal with pressing well because again he doesn't have the physical ability needed. Having someone like Kagawa, provided he plays as an attacking mid will help him there though.
Particularly when we're against teams who press us, having Kagawa will be, for me anyway, the big thing that could help us. It's rare that we have a player who naturally goes as deep as he does and is comfortable there. Rooney does at times but it's not constant and we've seen Park there pretty disastrously. Usually we get outnumbered 2 to 3 in the middle, sometimes more depending on how their wide players, play. So it means that for our players finding an out ball when pressed is tough because aside from your midfield partner who is likely to be covered there are few options because our players are far apart. Kagawa being someone who will come deep and look for little pockets will help us a lot.
But Carrick himself, imo anyway, if given the right partner, which lets face it during his time here he's rarely had a partner who can be relied on to stay deep and keep things tidy while he goes forward, can actually do some damage there. Last season he played some great balls at the edge of the box and he has a decent shot on him where he uses it. I think Carrick with clev and kagawa just ahead could work very well.
Comparing to keane isn't really worthwhile. End of the day Keane played at a time where the majority of teams played 442, usually quite wide. In the middle it was 2 v 2 most the time so no one was really needed to stay deep beyond a tactical choice such as the diamond. Over the last 10 years or so in England we've seen a big move to teams playing 451 as not loosing has become very important, for some teams more important than winning and with the influence of european football we've seen a big push for more centrally based attacks.
Putting that all together if you're playing in our midfield where we are quite old fashioned in many ways in that we play a 442 or sorts and unlike most teams play very wide, it means if you're a central player not only are you going to be outnumbered in most games, which puts you on the back foot already in terms of mobility but also if you have a partner ie scholes, who doesn't have the physical ability to hold his own and needs protection than you're going to be forced to stay relatively deep.
I said before but if you swapped in clev for Carrick the midfield wouldn't suddenly become more mobile, you'd just have a big gap left in the middle and Scholes not being able to cover it. Additionally if we got pressed we'd still be stuffed because as much as individual ability matters, your partner has a big influence, and scholes doesn't deal with pressing well because again he doesn't have the physical ability needed. Having someone like Kagawa, provided he plays as an attacking mid will help him there though.
Particularly when we're against teams who press us, having Kagawa will be, for me anyway, the big thing that could help us. It's rare that we have a player who naturally goes as deep as he does and is comfortable there. Rooney does at times but it's not constant and we've seen Park there pretty disastrously. Usually we get outnumbered 2 to 3 in the middle, sometimes more depending on how their wide players, play. So it means that for our players finding an out ball when pressed is tough because aside from your midfield partner who is likely to be covered there are few options because our players are far apart. Kagawa being someone who will come deep and look for little pockets will help us a lot.
But Carrick himself, imo anyway, if given the right partner, which lets face it during his time here he's rarely had a partner who can be relied on to stay deep and keep things tidy while he goes forward, can actually do some damage there. Last season he played some great balls at the edge of the box and he has a decent shot on him where he uses it. I think Carrick with clev and kagawa just ahead could work very well.
Oh right, so covering more ground than anyone else isn't the same thing as being mobile?
I'm used to noodles talking bollox about football but didn't realise this was kicking off a cult that don't use the English language in the way intended.
C'mon Pogue, most of us are old enough to remember Keane in his prime (apart from somebody who said that Scholes was known for his pace) so don't be such a snob.
Keane was probably one of our most mobile players in the late 90's and early 00's and comparing him to Carrick is laughable. you don't have to be an expert to know that. I've seen him live a number of times and in his "prime" as well and I can tell you that you really cant compare Carrick to Keane when it comes to mobility.
I loved Keano as a player and he was more mobile than Carrick but not that much more. If he couldn't run in a straight line from box to box he didnt wanna know, saying that he was good with one twos and creating his own space for a shot. I can see Pogues point, had Carrick not been given a more defensive brief he would be regarded as just as mobile as Keano ever was. All you have to do is look back on his earlier years with us when he didnt have such a defensive position.
agreed Carrick was much more mobile in previous years and given his role now he seems to sit deeper, but what we need now is a very mobile midfielder and we just dont think that player is Carrick.
Exactly. You'd swear I tried to claim Carrick was the better player of the two. He's plenty mobile, by any definition. Not a patch on Keane as a player, though, for reasons I've already gone into.
Yep, that's perfect.
That depends on his partner though. If Carrick had a partner who could be relied on to sit back reliably whilst he went forward then he would but but doesn't have that. Scholes can't defend very well and needs protection, giggs whilst he will work hard is obviously going to stay more attacking, ando and clev could potentially give Carrick a partner that will allow him to venture forward more but both are still questionable defensively. A fully fit Fletcher, with Carrick in the form he has been in and with his confidence seemingly restored would give Carrick the most leeway to go forward although I don't think most rate those two as a combo. Either way they didn't play together that long and not when they were both in top form. Most of Carrick's time here have been with partners that need his protection and so he has to sit when actually he has qualities that would be good further up the pitch. Additionally as I've said before because of our general formation we're usually outnumbered in the middle which makes it hard for our midfielders to push up much in most games.
I know the OP says this is based on last season etc but seriously with new faces on board why don't we let the new season start before we start moaning about a perception of how we MIGHT play in the new season?
So you define how mobile a player is how much they've run over the entire match? Not their actual movement, positions, tracking, making space for the pass?
I really don't see the Carrick and Keane comparisons here anyway, they're nothing alike in terms of their movement as players. Or, am I allowed mention Keane? I'm only 25, and according to you I shouldn't talk about him because as we all know, us humans don't grow eyes until we're 20 years old.
Carrick is mobile, he covers a lot of ground and takes up a lot of good positions defensively.
He's not particularly athletic, like Hargreaves (lol), or dynamic, like Anderson, and he doesn't IMO sprint as much as Fletch to close players down. He's a better player than them, though.
He's not particularly athletic, like Hargreaves (lol), or dynamic, like Anderson, and he doesn't IMO sprint as much as Fletch to close players down. He's a better player than them, though.
I've got no problem with that playing style so long as when you're in a good position to cross you cross it. That wasn't happening against Valerenga with Rooney being the only striker and not making himself a problem for the defenders inside the box.
That style doesn't work as well anymore though. Back then we had a mobile Scholes, Giggs in his prime and probably the best crosser ever in football on the right.
We never play with a left footed player on the left anymore. It gives the defenders that little bit of extra time to defend. It's easy to see why Valencia is liked by the fans
My only wish is to see players being played less out of position. Be it because of transfers or luck with injuries or a little bit of both then we will play well. We tend to play well when the team isn't being faffed about. That means playing Rafael at right back, using proper central midfielders.
Carrick's fine defensively...but he always sits when we're in possession. He wont take the ball forward with a purpose or move himself into space in an offensive position, move opposition players to cover him or run towards the ball. He literally doesn't do any of that at all. Ever. He just picks a pass forwards from deep or gives the ball to Scholes...who picks a pass forwards from deep.
Compare that to Cleverley or Anderson, who will move the ball forwards themselves and then carry on moving after they've passed it (although in Anderson's case this is often off the pitch for a goal kick). It makes it far more difficult for the opposition as they have to committ players to them rather than just sit off and watch us fanny around like a bunch of knobs.
Carrick and Fletcher as a partnership used to kill my enthusiasm for games a bit as they had the same flaw...you knew it meant a game of us not moving the ball quickly enough or committing the opposition midfield. The only real difference is that Scholes is better at passing than Fletcher, but it's pretty irrelevant when the style and speed of the play makes a majority of the passes ineffective even if they're pintpoint accurate.
Compare that to Cleverley or Anderson, who will move the ball forwards themselves and then carry on moving after they've passed it (although in Anderson's case this is often off the pitch for a goal kick). It makes it far more difficult for the opposition as they have to committ players to them rather than just sit off and watch us fanny around like a bunch of knobs.
Carrick and Fletcher as a partnership used to kill my enthusiasm for games a bit as they had the same flaw...you knew it meant a game of us not moving the ball quickly enough or committing the opposition midfield. The only real difference is that Scholes is better at passing than Fletcher, but it's pretty irrelevant when the style and speed of the play makes a majority of the passes ineffective even if they're pintpoint accurate.
All one of the new faces?
Judging by the line ups we kept picking for the later part of the season and performances we were putting in, we don't seem to have clocked that it's ineffective. In fact we seemed bizarrely intent on playing in that style, as if we actually thought it made us look like Barcelona or something.
He can though, and used to do so a lot more. There was also the time last season when he decided to run sixty yards with the ball and then smash it into the bottom corner. I guess he was bored.
He's never been that good at it. He used to do it more yeah, but he's always needed someone else to take the lead with it. We also used to have Ronaldo who'd committ two or three opposition players and stretch games on his own. These days we kind of actually need a functioning midfield, not a piss about aimlessly with the ball one.
In a lot of wins in this list we were absolutely dreadful at times.
My point remains, how about we see how the season progresses before we moan about a perception that might not happen.
You've always been one of the biggest moaners here Noods when it comes to how the team plays but progressing to pyschic moaning is a new one
I see your point, but I have to disagree. The OP points out (a bit dramatically) a trend in our play dating back to last season. It asserts that this trend can be seen in our play so far this preseason. Now, while the preseason is not necessarily a 100% accurate reflection of how we will start the season, it is still relevant. Consider last year, where we cut the opposition to shreds with quick passing around the box on the US tour. The second goal against city in the CS is probably the best example of what I'm talking about. In fact, immediately after that goal Martin Tyler remarked "if you've been watching Manchester United on their preseason tour there has been loads of this, almost walking goals into the back of the net". This manner of play carried over into August and September, before noodlehairs zombie apocalypse began to set in.
The OP also points out that the one new face (who we can expect to see regularly in the first team) has stood out thus far in his movement and general style of play.
It's entirely possible if not probable we will start the season playing in a similar manner to the last 10 months. To me, that is well worth discussing. If we're not going to talk about things that MIGHT happen we may as well get rid of the transfer forum for starters.
My point is that you're moaning about something that may not happen so what's the point in getting worked up? Wait a few months and then let your collective heads explode when united draw nil nil
Strange world of criticism this thread. Pogue seems to think whoever's oldest must be right (feck me I'm in with a chance) and several others say no one should talk about football before the season starts, although why they then bother to read the thread isn't quite clear.
I agree with Noodle, but given our buys so far, and who we've supposedly bid for, so does Fergie. Time yet, it's quite likely the boss doesn't really intend to start many games this season with Scholes and Carrick at all.
Let's be clear there 711 thats not what I said. I said Noods is moaning about a perception of something that may not happen. But hey if you feel that strongly about it crack on
For the record scholes only played half a season last time so not sure where all this crap about scholes-carrick being the reason for not winning the league. I'm getting old and my memory is not as good as it was but I seem to recall scholes ending up being one of the player of the year and carrick having had a good season too.
We lost the league on goal difference. Some point at creativity of te midfield, but bare in mind cleverley out for the season, Ando out for big chunks, scholes retired for first half, Nani in and out with injuries, fletcher out, Valencia out for a long time with a career threatening injury plus with so many injuries in defence sometimes we had to compensate with the midfield runners (eg Park).
Considering the injuries it's a miracle United came so close in the end
Yet here we are, yous want to moan about how we MIGHT play in the new season
For the record scholes only played half a season last time so not sure where all this crap about scholes-carrick being the reason for not winning the league. I'm getting old and my memory is not as good as it was but I seem to recall scholes ending up being one of the player of the year and carrick having had a good season too.
We lost the league on goal difference. Some point at creativity of te midfield, but bare in mind cleverley out for the season, Ando out for big chunks, scholes retired for first half, Nani in and out with injuries, fletcher out, Valencia out for a long time with a career threatening injury plus with so many injuries in defence sometimes we had to compensate with the midfield runners (eg Park).
Considering the injuries it's a miracle United came so close in the end
Yet here we are, yous want to moan about how we MIGHT play in the new season
Yeah, I agree with all that. I even ended my post with 'Time yet, it's quite likely the boss doesn't really intend to start many games this season with Scholes and Carrick at all'. I still think Nood's description of our play was more accurate than people have given him credit for though, which is why I offered some support, such as it was.
I'd prefer us to start the season with Cleverley if he's fully fit. Sometimes with Carrick-Scholes it feels as if they're not really both needed to pass the ball around and keep possession. I thought Carricks form was better last season until Scholes came back, and although he still played well enough, he wasn't as dominant as he has been partnering Anderson, Giggs and even Jones.
It's almost as if Scholes comes on the pitch and is so good with his passing, that Carrick just surrenders the ball to him and is only used to cover his defensive frailties. I think it's pointless. Carrick is a good enough passer himself to dictate play alongside a more dynamic midfielder in Cleverley.
Yes, I am aware that we won X amount of matches when he came out of retirement
It's almost as if Scholes comes on the pitch and is so good with his passing, that Carrick just surrenders the ball to him and is only used to cover his defensive frailties. I think it's pointless. Carrick is a good enough passer himself to dictate play alongside a more dynamic midfielder in Cleverley.
Yes, I am aware that we won X amount of matches when he came out of retirement
Zombies are not that slow... I saw a few, running almost fast as Charlie Adam.
I think that's going a bit far. Though Carrick can faff and get caught when he's in poor form, in good form he passes pretty quickly, often first-time. And Scholes looks for the non-pointless pass most of the time, he will happily ignore Carrick if he moves into too pointless a position.
A lot of people enjoy moaning geebs, much as you and Pogue enjoy moaning about moaning. Not that I'm knocking it - moaning about moaning is fun.
I think that's exactly right. Carrick defers to Scholes, he always has. He routinely plays five-yard balls to a static Scholes that, as I said above, Scholes would hardly ever play to him.
It's all part of the main Michael Carrick problem - personality. Very good player, no real balls.
Though in fairness, there's an argument that the best thing to do in most situations for most midfielders who find themselves in the same team as Paul Scholes is to just give the ball to Paul Scholes.
With Sir Alex praising Carrick the other day and saying how he's our most important player he might be trying to get him to step up and take control. He's more than capable, he just needs to beleive it that's all.
I wouldn't call it praise. He's only our 'most important player' because for some odd reason SAF has decided to leave him as the only player of his type in our entire squad whilst trying to buy every single winger and attacking midfielder on the planet.
This sounds like praise to me.
Just a couple of quote picked out from that article. High praise indeed comparing to the likes of Toure, Modric and Gerrard.
Overly high praise, but that's not what I meant. What I meant is that SAF HAS to praise his importance because we're so stupidly over reliant on him.
Geebs, exactly how many posts on here are about what people perceive might happen in the future. Probably every single post that isn't immediately after a game?
I think that's pretty close to hitting the nail on the head. When Scholes is in the team, Carrick defaults to him, but Scholes sits exactly the same as Carrick, and basically plays the same passes Carrick would be playing anyway, from the same positions, only a little bit better.
So in effect we don't actually gain anything, and lose a whole bucket load of functionality and movement that we gain from someone like Cleverley or Anderson.
That's why I reckon they (Scholes and Carrick) should be fighting for one place in the team rather than playing alongside each other, and to be honest, Carrick would probably be the prefered starter. Much as I love Scholes, Carrick's defensive work outweighs Scholes being better on the ball. Plus Carrick isn't retired.
It seems slightly pointless flatlining our ability to play fluidly in order to accomodate someone who's going to retire in less than a year anyway. It also hinders the likes of Anderson and Cleverley who could be important in years to come.
Pretty much every pass is pointless if no one's moving anywhere though. For example, Scholesey's diagonal pass out to Nani or Valencia, who are then immediately swamped by two defenders due to the lack of movement or threat to distract them...more impressive than, and yet in the circumstance, basically exactly the same as what would happen if Hargreaves ran across the entire pitch and then passed the ball to them from 3 yards away, before stretchering himself off.
We're falling into the England trap a bit. Functionality in midfield is much more important than just selecting who's the best at doing a certain thing, otherwise that certain thing tends to lose two thirds of its effectiveness anyway.
For once, noodles, I agree with you. Carrick and Scholes have been brilliant for us as a partnership but they're clearly not the future of our central midfield.
I actually think Fergie would also agree with you. I think we saw at the beginning of last season how highly he rates both Anderson and Cleverley, as he was willing to leave Carrick on the bench in favour of the two younger CMs. Granted, Cleverley couldn't get games in the closing weeks of the season but he was struggling for form and not playing very well, which is to be expected after being out injured for so long.
I'm sure Fergie's starting this season with similar intentions, regarding Cleverley and Anderson's place in the midfield pecking order. Although Carrick's form throughout last season means Scholes is more likely to find himself sidelined.
I generally agree with that too. I think the main reason Carrick didn't start last season might have been that he looked a bit behind in terms of fitness...and then Cleverley and Anderson played so well together in the second half against City, it made Fergie's mind up for him. It's just a shame that we went from that to looking comparatively lifeless.
I thought Cleverley did really well when he came on against Wigan in the 1-0 defeat, which was the best example I can think of to illustrate my point...having him on and providing some movement through the middle changed the game from us being hopelessly outplayed, to pushing for an equaliser.
He didn't start a game from then until the end of the season, from memory. Though in fairness and as you said, cleverley's lack of football may have meant Fergie not wanting to risk changing things with so few games left....and Anderson had crumpled under his own weight again by that point.
I'd actually be interested to see what Kagawa could do alongside Carrick. His awareness and decision making seem pretty faultless, and he can pick a pass and make himself available pretty effortlessly. I don't think we'll play him there though.
I thought Cleverley did really well when he came on against Wigan in the 1-0 defeat, which was the best example I can think of to illustrate my point...having him on and providing some movement through the middle changed the game from us being hopelessly outplayed, to pushing for an equaliser.
He didn't start a game from then until the end of the season, from memory. Though in fairness and as you said, cleverley's lack of football may have meant Fergie not wanting to risk changing things with so few games left....and Anderson had crumpled under his own weight again by that point.
I'd actually be interested to see what Kagawa could do alongside Carrick. His awareness and decision making seem pretty faultless, and he can pick a pass and make himself available pretty effortlessly. I don't think we'll play him there though.
Same here.
I do think we'll give it a go at some point though. It's probably the only way Fergie can fit Rooney, Welbeck and Kagawa into the same team, without sticking someone out wide. So long as Carrick sits deep, and Kagawa isn't expected to do much defending, I could see us absolutely annihilating average/poor teams at Old Trafford with that line-up.
I agree, if Giggs can play there against certain teams then why wouldn't Kagawa be comfortable in that role also. It gives us another option anyway.
I think the issue with playing Kagawa there though is as it's likely only going to work against weaker teams you'd be taking time away from the likes of clev/ando/powell etc, particularly the latter two. I wouldn't be surprised to see Welbeck take up that wing role a few more times this season.