Static, slow motion zombie passing

Sam said:
I don't agree that the front 4 (whoever they are) do move, certainly not as much as other 'top' teams. They obviously don't just literaly stand there on the spot, but there is a distinctive lack of movement and variety from the attacking players. Even when they do move (as that Kagawa video from the other day shows) its never as a unit, its all individually. There's no clear plan, its just induvidual players occasionaly wondering about a bit, without any real intent or purporse.

Agree with your assesement of the midfield though, they're not helping the situation at all. But looking at the personel, I don't think that will change (sadly).
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You've got Rooney, Van Persie, Hernandez, Welbeck, Januzaj, Mata, Kagawa and Young, all of whom I don't think can be accused of standing still. Valencia does, but even so, that's because he is a more or less 100% wide player and is supposedly meant to stretch the play by staying out wide.

They don't move as a unit because the ball is so slow to make its way up to them. Once we have a bit of urgency in getting them service, or if they get the ball and start playing it amongst themselves, they all seem to burst into life. This was evident when Vidic and Carrick were injured, and as recently as Palace away when Fellaini was actually playing the ball forwards quickly.

The problem is, make a run either to or away from the ball when Carrick icks it up, and he's not going to give it to you until you're either marked, or offside...he's probably not going to give it to you at all. Cleverley will probably igonre you to run forwards a bit and then play a panicky hospital pass to someone. Rio or Vidic will ignore you to either knock it aimlessly up the channel, or pass it between themselves.

It speaks volumes that our best players at playing decent passes into the forwards this season are Phil Jones and Fellaini (for 1 game). Neither of them are capable of playing any pass that isn't completely straight forward. Flether's been ok on the odd occasion but no trust seems to be placed in him.

The problem stems from the midfield and centrebacks for me. It started occuring around the same time dallying on the ball seemed to become a preferred tactic of our defence/midfield, which I doubt is any coincidence at all.

We have far too many front players who have excellent individual movement for it to be mysteriously down to ALL of them suddenly deciding they can't be arsed anymore...especially as I've been at games this season and seen the likes of Hernandez, Rooney, Nani, Kagawa, etc. more or less run their hearts out constantly looking for space.
 
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It's been ridiculous. I've been at both games so far and it's genuinely boring as feck at times.

They pass it around the defence, occasionally involving the midfielders who just pass it straight back. Eventually, it falls to a tool like Young or Cleverley who just lose it. Waste of time keeping possession if we're doing absolutely nothing with it, Louis.

That's why I think a player like Di Maria will massively help us. It'll come to him on the wing or in midfield and he'll DO something.
 
I don't think it's that bad either. we just seem to lose the ball when we try and do anything other than sideways and backward passing.
 
I have nailed this down to Cleverly, he passes sideways when he is the central midfielder who should be passing forward and moving forward too. I have seen him too many times in one match standing horizontally with Fletcher. Crazy.

Basically our midfield did not allow fast transitions from defence to attack. Herrera at least increased the tempo going forward.
 
we need better movement and pace up front to put opposition defenders on the backfoot and we desperately need a midfield anchor like carrick.
 
What baffles me is when we look like we might get in behind, or someone is in a one v one, and delay taking action until the other team have two banks of four set. Today at Sunderland we did this like four times. It was crazy
 
DeMono said:
I have nailed this down to Cleverly, he passes sideways when he is the central midfielder who should be passing forward and moving forward too. I have seen him too many times in one match standing horizontally with Fletcher. Crazy.

Basically our midfield did not allow fast transitions from defence to attack. Herrera at least increased the tempo going forward.
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I agree, Tom (the human Crab) Cleverley only passes sideways. No creativity or intensity to his play, we need a midfielder to partner Herrera badly imo.
 
this thread seems to be older than of today's game haha. When there is no movement there is no way to pass. We no more have neither Scholes who was so precise with his passing and confident to do it nor we have someone like Anderson who could drive forward with the ball and yeah the players which should be availible are not. Rooney and Van Persie are not fit to play even 15 minutes in high tempo. They should be benched. We need movement also from that CAM position putting pressure on their defenders. If we had high pressing team we could utilise that grabbing the ball in final third earlier and attack to poen defense... we are too slow in regaining possesion without Herrera and Welbeck that we have to play slow from the start and the midfielders we have incapable things I already mentioned. So the other teams tend to press us high as well because they know we lack confidence or real ability to move the ball with ease and the problem is that our CM need much more time to do the pass for moving target and if those targets are RVP/Rooney who are so ridiculously lazy than they have no other option than simply pass backwords or yeah on the "wings" but these players ei Young/Valencia cant beat man so they pass backwords themselves. If we had legs and aggresion in midfield and at least at 2/3 positions on top we could even play with cleverley. Van Gaal should stop playing both RVP and Rooney together and should utilize more of Welbeck, Januzaj, Rojo will add some aggresivness and speed as well as Rafael when back from injury.
 
shivab said:
we need better movement and pace up front to put opposition defenders on the backfoot and we desperately need a midfield anchor like carrick.
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Our Movement up top from Rooney and van Persie is sometimes quite poor.

I'd like to see young Wilson in there, he runs like a deer.
 
Like a real zombie, this thread refuses to die. When's our Rick Grimes coming to save us? :(
 
It wasn't zombie passing, it was just passing without any ideas of how to actually make something happen.
 
We are becoming more comfortable on the ball which is a good sign, but the players we played yesterday dont have what it takes to go beyond that actual hurt teams using the keep ball. I was actually impressed by some of our keep ball. But it's pointless given the complete lack of creativity, thrust and invention in those 4 duds.
 
noodlehair said:
You've got Rooney, Van Persie, Hernandez, Welbeck, Januzaj, Mata, Kagawa and Young, all of whom I don't think can be accused of standing still. Valencia does, but even so, that's because he is a more or less 100% wide player and is supposedly meant to stretch the play by staying out wide.

They don't move as a unit because the ball is so slow to make its way up to them. Once we have a bit of urgency in getting them service, or if they get the ball and start playing it amongst themselves, they all seem to burst into life. This was evident when Vidic and Carrick were injured, and as recently as Palace away when Fellaini was actually playing the ball forwards quickly.

The problem is, make a run either to or away from the ball when Carrick icks it up, and he's not going to give it to you until you're either marked, or offside...he's probably not going to give it to you at all. Cleverley will probably igonre you to run forwards a bit and then play a panicky hospital pass to someone. Rio or Vidic will ignore you to either knock it aimlessly up the channel, or pass it between themselves.

It speaks volumes that our best players at playing decent passes into the forwards this season are Phil Jones and Fellaini (for 1 game). Neither of them are capable of playing any pass that isn't completely straight forward. Flether's been ok on the odd occasion but no trust seems to be placed in him.

The problem stems from the midfield and centrebacks for me. It started occuring around the same time dallying on the ball seemed to become a preferred tactic of our defence/midfield, which I doubt is any coincidence at all.

We have far too many front players who have excellent individual movement for it to be mysteriously down to ALL of them suddenly deciding they can't be arsed anymore...especially as I've been at games this season and seen the likes of Hernandez, Rooney, Nani, Kagawa, etc. more or less run their hearts out constantly looking for space.
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This is spot on.
 
Bump?
After the closing stages at City last week I thought we'd come flying out of the traps and play with a lot of urgency, but it's been sleep inducing today :(
 
Nope. It is the lack of movement up front that slows us down in the final third. RVP as lone striker does not work.
 
This is worse. At least with zombie passing we usually found the man we were aiming for, this time when we do attempt to play a ball forward it's going straight to the opposition. Bollocks so far, worst performance of the season.
 
It's not only the passing we are also back to no off the ball movement. Everyone who is not having the ball just seems to stand around watching curiously what might happen. No one makes a run, no one offers a passing option that a fall back into our darkest days right now.
 
No pace or movement in the final third and neither Rooney or Fellaini are capable of playing passes to open up the opposition, Rooney can to a certain extent but it's not his strongest attribute.
 
Mr Anderson said:
Nope. It is the lack of movement up front that slows us down in the final third. RVP as lone striker does not work.
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I'd say it's more a problem of too many players pushing too high. There's such a massive gulf between Carrick and the other defenders. And I'd say we also struggle because they're aren't enough players up top for whatever reason who can pick up a ball to feet and turn. The ball comes back so much.
 
Really need to start playing Di Maria centrally where he plays best and can up the tempo and play central incisive passes. He is more predictable out wide and has to primarily rely on his crossing with Fellain being his only real outball.

Herrera ahead of Fellaini makes way more sense in a game where we will have the lion's share of possession and need creativity desperately. He also has the ability to up the tempo when required. Rooney in more of a CM role isn't helping at all IMO.

Just relying way too much on Januzaj and Di Maria to conjure something from the flanks with zero movement and invention in the middle of the park. They too aren't having the greatest of games themselves. It makes for some really tumescent football.
 
Joga Bonito said:
Really need to start playing Di Maria centrally where he plays best and can up the tempo and play central incisive passes. He is more predictable out wide and has to primarily rely on his crossing with Fellain being his only real outball.

Herrera ahead of Fellaini makes way more sense in a game where we will have the lion's share of possession and need creativity desperately. He also has the ability to up the tempo when required. Rooney in more of a CM role isn't helping at all IMO.

Just relying way too much on Januzaj and Di Maria to conjure something from the flanks with zero movement and invention in the middle of the park. They too aren't having the greatest of games themselves. It makes for some really tumescent football.
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Its just a lose lose situation atm, in a 442 diamond we are great going forward and look more comfortable on the ball BUT a big failing of this is our defense is exposed. This 4141 we are playing atm seems to crowd players out and movement is lost BUT it protects our back four.

Its hardly surprising since we moved to this 4141 we look better defensively. My hope is we get CBs in Jan who will suit the diamond better.
 
Sometimes you have to build from the back. We've been conceding goals like it's going out of fashion this season. Add to that, all our center halves being injured/suspended. Hardly surprising Van Gaal has gone back to basics and decided to build a solid foundation.
 
OneUnited24 said:
Its just a lose lose situation atm, in a 442 diamond we are great going forward and look more comfortable on the ball BUT a big failing of this is our defense is exposed. This 4141 we are playing atm seems to crowd players out and movement is lost BUT it protects our back four.

Its hardly surprising since we moved to this 4141 we look better defensively. My hope is we get CBs in Jan who will suit the diamond better.
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I think the 4-3-3 of sorts would be the best option right now. A midfield trio of Blind-Herrera-Di Maria which has proved to be successful and cohesive. A forward trio of Falcao-Mata-Rooney with Mata and Rooney being withdrawn forwards.

It still has its flaws but I think it's better than the diamond or the current formation. Even created a thread on it and don't want to keep regurgitating.
 
When we get Herrera back into things, we will be much better as he always looks forwards for the pass and will add some drive to mf. There is no reason Fellaini should keep hold of his place.

Herrera - Blind - Di Maria needs to come back.
 
Teams that defend like that, very compact, give us a lot of trouble. And when we face teams like that, who take the safe route, we unbelievably try the safe sideways and backwards passing and crafting the perfect shot instead of taking risks and causing trouble. Just doesn't make sense. So much attacking talent that can pull off the impossible if they'd just take a chance.

And that's how we scored today
 
Joga Bonito said:
I think the 4-3-3 of sorts would be the best option right now. A midfield trio of Blind-Herrera-Di Maria which has proved to be successful and cohesive. A forward trio of Falcao-Mata-Rooney with Mata and Rooney being withdrawn forwards.

It still has its flaws but I think it's better than the diamond or the current formation. Even created a thread on it and don't want to keep regurgitating.
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Would get my vote but with Herrera coming back from injury (i still think it'll be awhile until hes match ready, a bruised/cracked rib can really be painful even with meds) i think we have resorted to this 4141 to get the best out of Fellaini
 
I agree Herrera is the solution to this, or at the very least a step in the right direction. He never stops moving and showing feet. I'm actually struggling to remember the last one two a United player did that didn't involve him...
 
I think it's Rooney causing all the problems, dropping far too deep and playing here, there and everywhere. He is involved in far too much, leaving a huge gap to RVP up top. Far too many passes in the middle of the pitch. Rooney is trying to dictate the play far too much. LVG should have told him at half time on saturday - play behind RVP.
 
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