Stam brands SAF a hypocrite

Gazza

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<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/2243654.stm" target="_blank">Ferguson a hypocrite</a>

Jaap should just back off and let things be. He knows there is a lot of controversy around at the moment, the last thing we need is former players talking to the tabs.
 
well, jaap has a point.


i think the difference is that jaap mentioned stuff about tapping...and other things which might have pissed off the players... altho, he did say alot of good things about his teammates and manager... but it was obvious that Stams, quotes, were taken out of context and sensationalised in the gutter press.... and he suffered, consequently.. shame.
 
point or not, he should shut up ...always strikes as sour grapes when a former player, who was kicked out, is talking about his old club
 
Whether he is right or not is not the point at the mo... he knows full well we have a lot on our plate, and if he had any sense and any feelings for the fans and the players he would keep his mouth shut instead of giving the press something to splash all over the back pages. :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by Jens:
<strong>point or not, he should shut up ...always strikes as sour grapes when a former player, who was kicked out, is talking about his old club</strong><hr></blockquote>

he got kicked out when he shouldn't have... i don't think he ever wanted to leave.


i'd be pissed off a year later.. especially if another player brought out an even more controversial autobiagraphy..


bottom line, jaap loved United...and is still gutted..about what happened.
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Originally posted by Jens:
<strong>point or not, he should shut up ...always strikes as sour grapes when a former player, who was kicked out, is talking about his old club</strong><hr></blockquote>

exactly.
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Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

he got kicked out when he shouldn't have... i don't think he ever wanted to leave.


i'd be pissed off a year later.. especially if another player brought out an even more controversial autobiagraphy..


bottom line, jaap loved United...and is still gutted..about what happened.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If he loves the club so much, why is he adding fuel to the fire ? Smacks of sour grapes, as Jens said. I agree SAF should have read the Stam book first (that is, if he didnt) but now is not the time to say your peice.
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Rubbish. Why shouldn't he say what he has to say? He owes nothing to United. He's no longer employed by United. Quite frankly he can say whatever he wants to say.
 
Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

he got kicked out when he shouldn't have... i don't think he ever wanted to leave.


i'd be pissed off a year later.. especially if another player brought out an even more controversial autobiagraphy..


bottom line, jaap loved United...and is still gutted..about what happened.</strong><hr></blockquote>

if he still loved utd he would keep his mouth shut and wouldnt add fuel to the fire ...

stam has to accept hes no utd player anymore and utd is the past ...
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Of course he can, and I agree if something has to said then say it, but he seems to be taking advantage of what is happening to make money of his former player status. If he has said it through his own website or something I wouldnt have minded, but the tabloids are just going to go OTT on this.
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>Rubbish. Why shouldn't he say what he has to say? He owes nothing to United. He's no longer employed by United. Quite frankly he can say whatever he wants to say.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly. Besides, the point he's made is valid. Considering what Fergie did to Stam (who published a far less controversiol book), it does seem awfuly hypocritical of SAF to back Keano but transfer Stam.
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SAF has been a disgrace recently, and RK has been worse, in the context of the Stam saga. I am a great admirer of Keane's ability but, I cannot believe what he is doing/done.

He was a disgrace to his country during the WC, he has let down his team, and he has brought out his book at the worst possible time imaginable, literally while UTD are trying to rebuild.

Arguably, our Thrown was tossed away by SAF with the departure of Stam, I happen to agree with this.

It is no coincidence that our fall from the dizzy hights of the untouchables, coincided with Stams departure, and it is less a coincidence that the aura of invincibility was broken at that time.

UTD's strength during the 90's was in no small part due to psychology, for so long we had dominated, we had an immediate advantage against our opposition through fear. This was shattered when Stam left, as our defence literraly fell apart.

The mysique was gone, the impregnability was gone, the edge was gone.

There is only one person to blame for that, and it isn't Stam.

The hypocracy is self evident. I only hope we can rise to the challenge, because you can be damn sure the "fear factor" is gone; wasted, through petulannce and peevishness and it won't be coming back.

I lost a my respect for Keane during the WC, because I believe one should swallow personal differences for the good of your country, and no matter what happens, the ideal, is to compete and be proud.

Flame away peeps, because I really do care about people I dont know on the internet, honest.
 
Originally posted by 2Bullish:
<strong>I believe one should swallow personal differences for the good of your country</strong><hr></blockquote>Shame for Ireland that McCarthy doesn't think like that eh?

<img src="graemlins/yawn.gif" border="0" alt="[Yawn]" />
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A few opinions.

Big Jaap has every right to air his opinions whether I agree with them or not. It is clear to me that the Dutchman is still upset at the way he was given the heave-ho from the greatest club in the world and I can understand that. If Big Jaap is still hurting, then that means Manchester United meant something substantial to him.

However, the great difference between his book and Keano`s is that Keano doesn`t say Sir Alex did anything illegal such as tapping him. Jaap was foolish to put that in. Why he was not smart enough to withold that information, is something not understood by many.

It seems that Jaap is not thick and in fact is intelligent for a footballer. This is not to dismiss all professional footballers as boneheads but let`s face it, many are not intellectually well-rounded as they are herded into a very narrow footballing mindset and lifestyle early on.

I would never say that a person has to advance to higher education to be intelligent - there were generations of working class people in Europe and Ozland who left school early but were and are intelligent people. However, you just have to look at Becks and his imperviousness to much general knowledge, and his resistance to reading when he was a young lad (he found books boring and disliked reading he told various interviewers), to see the effects of the footballing mindset. Maybe he has changed now.

But Big Jaap was smart enough to avoid putting such inflammatory information in his book. Maybe being Dutch was one factor. No, I am not being racist - a former boyfriend of mine was Dutch and he used to warn me not to get offended by the directness and brusqueness of his family and relatives. He said it tended to be a Dutch characteristic.

I wish Jaap would get over it, but is seems he can`t. And being at Lazio with its problems and its racist fans etc, etc, no wonder he misses Manchester United.
 
I was a huge fan of Stam but selling Stam was the best bit of outgoing business SAF ever did. After his op he was a donkey of Adamesk proportions. No wonder Lazio are reluctant to pay up - they were ripped off.

Stam at his peak was the best central defender in Europe and probably the world. Without his pace, which almost disappeared, his style of play left us wide open. With Stam we wouldn't have even been in contention for the PL/CL last year.
 
Originally posted by giggsgirl:
<strong>And being at Lazio with its problems and its racist fans etc, etc, no wonder he misses Manchester United.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Watch it. Percy will accuse you of being a racist <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
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The timing of these remarks makes me really suspicious. Sounds like sour grapes or there is an axe to grind of some sort here. While it probably has something to do with Stam's departure, why bring it up now? He opens his mouth so the press will come running and he can give his $.02 worth of what he thinks. Honestly, who the hell cares? He is not part of the team any more and he is not privy to Ferguson's thoughts on the issue. Whatever Ferguson really thinks is his buisness, the point is he supports Keene publicly whether he was right or wrong. The team supports Keane and those are the things that matter.
 
SAF backed Cantona and Beckham when they were in trouble. He has always supported United players when they are in trouble with the press or opposition fans. Always - except Jaap Stam. Therefore, I think the issue was footballing rather than personal. I think SAF realised that Jaap would never be the player he was after his operation and was willing to sell sooner rather than later to get the best possible price.

A massive leap in guesswork, possibly putting two and two together and getting five. Jaap was banned for using illegal drugs. Was this connected with the injury? I don't know but I think SAF sold Jaap because he (SAF) realised Jaap was not going to regain his speed.
 
Originally posted by giggsgirl:
<strong>A few opinions.

Maybe being Dutch was one factor. No, I am not being racist - a former boyfriend of mine was Dutch and he used to warn me not to get offended by the directness and brusqueness of his family and relatives. He said it tended to be a Dutch characteristic.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I remember being surprised at how open and honest Jaap was in his book. Then I read an article where a journalist said that you had to understand that Jaap came from a part of Holland where people basically didn't even tell white lies.

I think the reason why Fergie didn't back him with his book is because Stam, without meaning to, had portrayed Fergie in a bad light with the tapping incident. Stam probably thought he was just telling the truth.

Jaap does have a right to his opinion, though. He never wanted to leave United and I always remember how devastated he looked at the Lazio news conference when he was presented to the journalists. He's obviously still very bitter at Fergie, and unfortunately, although I think he's still very fond of the club and the fans, when he attacks Fergie this way...it's not helping the club much either.
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Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/2243654.stm" target="_blank">Ferguson a hypocrite</a>

Jaap should just back off and let things be. He knows there is a lot of controversy around at the moment, the last thing we need is former players talking to the tabs.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Is Fergie afraid of Keano? Who's the true boss?
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Originally posted by Jens:
<strong>

if he still loved utd he would keep his mouth shut and wouldnt add fuel to the fire ...

stam has to accept hes no utd player anymore and utd is the past ...</strong><hr></blockquote>

so its ok for Keano, who's still playing for the club to be quoted in the press, about things which might disturb the dressig room....

yet Stam,a man that has nothing to do with United, can't

weird logic mate.
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Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong>

If he loves the club so much, why is he adding fuel to the fire ? Smacks of sour grapes, as Jens said. I agree SAF should have read the Stam book first (that is, if he didnt) but now is not the time to say your peice.</strong><hr></blockquote>

so when is the time?


when, he retires?? or when its ok for United?

c'mon... he's a free agent.

we fecked him off last year...and you expect him to keep his mouth shut a year later.. actually all credit to him.. he's not said much over the past 12 months to harm United, many others would have had alot more to say...


he's comparing the two 'sagas'... and has every right to.
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Stam at his peak was the best central defender in Europe and probably the world. Without his pace, which almost disappeared, his style of play left us wide open. With Stam we wouldn't have even been in contention for the PL/CL last year.

-------------------------------------------------

Most sensible thing I've seen about Stam going! Agree completely. No surprise Lazio feel a bit pissed off as well. They probably think we knew about the drug thing and didn't let on!
 
Originally posted by Wibble:
<strong>I was a huge fan of Stam but selling Stam was the best bit of outgoing business SAF ever did. After his op he was a donkey of Adamesk proportions. No wonder Lazio are reluctant to pay up - they were ripped off.

Stam at his peak was the best central defender in Europe and probably the world. Without his pace, which almost disappeared, his style of play left us wide open. With Stam we wouldn't have even been in contention for the PL/CL last year.</strong><hr></blockquote>

you should have seen him play yesterday, he looked pretty useful and quick to me.....

Lets be honest for a change; Stam was treated unfairly by Fergie and I can understand his motivations fully.
IMO the biggest mistake what Fergie has made was letting him go.
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Jaap's still good, but not as good as he used to be. I don't think he ever hit the heights of 1998/9 after that really, definately not after coming back from injury.

I do think the book had something to do with him being sold. I think Fergie was willing to give him a chance even though he might have had doubts over him. The book though probably convinced the manager selling him would benefit us better.

I don't think he'd have sold him for the book if he thought he was as good as he's ever been.
 
Rarely is anything about a single issue.

Tony Adams could look useful but he was always a huge donkey. FFS Heskey occasionally looks useful.

Stam wasn't the same player after his op and he never will be. 16 million was a wonderful deal for us.
 
Stam might not be the most skillfull defender in the world but he's a hell of a lot more mobile and pacey than donkey adams ever was. Stam always keeps it simple, rarely does he give the ball away.
 
Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>

money we've yet to receive.</strong><hr></blockquote>

True but we wll get it. He can't be worth more that 3-5 million now though.
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Originally posted by Rams:
<strong>Stam might not be the most skillfull defender in the world but he's a hell of a lot more mobile and pacey than donkey adams ever was. Stam always keeps it simple, rarely does he give the ball away.</strong><hr></blockquote>

He WAS more mobile and pacy. Still useful but his significant loss of speed exposes his lack of skill. This would be particularly true if he were in a "saved by the skin of your teeth" defence like United's.


We were well rid and nothing will persuade me otherwise.
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<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[No No]" />

STAM IS MIXING THE CARDS

The book HE wrote was a kick in the leg to FERGIE.

THAT is why he couldn't stay.

Keane threw punching against people OUTSIDE Manchester United.

That is a DIFFERENT story alltogether.

No matter what politics one behold the ethical matter of his sayings.


<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[No No]" />
 
Originally posted by Jens:
<strong>point or not, he should shut up ...always strikes as sour grapes when a former player, who was kicked out, is talking about his old club</strong><hr></blockquote>

He's got a right to express his views. Him leaving was controversial at best, and irresponsible at worst. I doubt we would've had the defensive nightmare last year if Jaap was aboard for the full year.
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Interesting thread gents .

May I take one issue and ask one question :

When Jap was transfered many of you are making reference to the fact that he had not got over his injury .

Subsequently you say ( in defence of SAF I'd add)
that his rapid expulsion from Man Utd was due to SAF's opinion that the Dutchman ( who was the core of your defence ) was past it . Of course the book came out and Stam was gone before you could blink !

If it was not the book and SAF was telling the truth ( which personally I don't for a second believe as Jap looked like he was on the way back to me )then how come he did not give a player of Stam's undoubted stature , quality and loyalty the time necessary to recover ? Why was he so frightened of Stam ?. Is it because that Stam being an intelligent thoughtful bloke posed an intellectual threat on SAF and SAF feared being undermined by the dutchman ?

Always wondered about that meself . Why get rid of one of the world's best defenders over something that he could fire RK over a thousand times ?

Regards the comments about Adams . I do as a Gooner feel compelled to defend the legend that IS Adams .

I think more than twice SAF went 'in' for Adams during the 90's ! ses a lot I think

As a player although Adams was never the quickest of men his reading of the game in his last 4/5 years was of the highest world class .

As a skipper his only parrallel in the last 20 years has been Roy Keane only just recently .

Nobody apart from Keane has equalled the 'presence of Tony in this regard .

I would certainly prefer him over Stam myself but maybe Stam would have gone onwards and upwards at OT ?

One question I'll leave you to ponder about Adams .

Had he been playing skipper for England in the Brazil game this summer that game could / would have had a VERY DIFERENT conclusion .

Adams would have lead the troops 'into ' Brazil for the cause, not ponced around and meekly dissapeared without trace into oblivion . This is no critiscm of Beckham ( a wonderful player ) who was not even fit so should NOT have been there anyway but moreso a celebration of Adams leadership and fighting qualities that England so badly missed in THAT particular game .

Had he been there we may have lost 5-1 / 5-2 but you could have guaranteed he'd have bollocked the team into camping in the Brazil half and at least having an almighty go at them .

I think you do TA a gross injustice and the 'donkey' label is very much unjustified in his case .

Mind I know he is the 'enemy ' so I understand the feeling
 
Jaap was at United for around three weeks after he started making all the wrong headlines.

He played against Liverpool in the Charity Shield, then against Fulham were his lack of pace was exposed.

And that was that. If it was the book, why was he even given those? (The popular excuse mind you is that we had a lack of centerhalves back then and didn't have a choice).

Anyhow, I don't believe it was just the book. The book may have hastened it, but it wouldn't cause his sale alone.
 
Mmmm .... the more I look at it the stranger it feels .

As a Gooner the moment we saw Stam 'gone' for whatever reason we knew it was up for grabs , there was no way you'd replace him overnight and even if he was finished cos of injury his experience and quality could have only helped the developement of younger pros IMO .

It seemed to us out here that you would unquestionably suffer as a result of his departure .

To be honest since he went, defensively you have never filled the gap and as I think someone pointed out the first signs of your cracking inviciblity went with him .

Good for the rest of us though . I'll thank Alex for that one for sure ;)
 
We'll never know I suppose. I just think that the combination between the fact he slowed down, the book and the very good offer from Lazio made it very hard to refuse.

I believe the initial contact between Lazio and United was made in the CL draw in Moncao. Doesn't really sound like United were desperately looking for any one to take the player off our hands.
 
Amir

Would have been an interesting scenario had we gone in for him cos you'd have found out the truth rapido there . Had SAF been prepared to let him go to the Arse for example then you'd have believed he was finished by injury had SAF not allowed it you'd have known it was 100% the book .

Fun to speculate but as you say we'll never know , well not untill Ferie has left Utd and brings out another warts and all biog .

Now THAT will be a good read ;)
 
Originally posted by 2Bullish:
<strong>
Arguably, our Thrown was tossed away by SAF with the departure of Stam, I happen to agree with this.

It is no coincidence that our fall from the dizzy hights of the untouchables, coincided with Stams departure, and it is less a coincidence that the aura of invincibility was broken at that time.

UTD's strength during the 90's was in no small part due to psychology, for so long we had dominated, we had an immediate advantage against our opposition through fear. This was shattered when Stam left, as our defence literraly fell apart.

The mysique was gone, the impregnability was gone, the edge was gone.

There is only one person to blame for that, and it isn't Stam.

The hypocracy is self evident. I only hope we can rise to the challenge, because you can be damn sure the "fear factor" is gone; wasted, through petulannce and peevishness and it won't be coming back.

</strong><hr></blockquote>


Spot on.
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