Neh you’re spot on, United ain’t ready for the league, need another summer window where we reinforce other areas and our younger players grow. Next season who the hell knows but this season is about getting back into UCL and cup runs.
Squad Depth | We're doubled up!
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Looks like a good depth that should be able to fight for top 4 if we can keep injry levels low.
A LB to challenge Shaw is indeed needed. Ferdi Kadioglu would be the dream signing as we wouldn't go down in quality when Shaw is not available and would provide tactical options from the bench.
It might be unpopular but I actually believe that Casemiro could be a good alternative CM to Mainoo rather than using him as DM. If we can sell McTominay and replace him with a proper DM that would fight with Ugarte then Maino/Casemiro - Ugarte/DM would be a pretty good balanced midfied.
The rest I would leave as you suggested. Also have in mind that we still have:
- Heaton
- Lindelof
- Evans
- Malacia
- Amass
- Collyier
- Gore
- Hannibal
- Sancho
- Pellistri
- Wheatley
Some of those would and should depart the club this summer while others should act as additional backup like Heaton, Evans, Collyer etc.
Onana
Bayindir
Heaton
Dalot..........De Ligt......Martinez.......Shaw
Mazraoui......Yoro.......Maguire.......Amass
.....................Lindelof......Evans.......Malacia
Casemiro......Mainoo
Berge/Ugarte.....McTominay
Collyer...........Eriksen
Amad.......Fernandes.....Garnacho
Antony...........Mount.........Rashford
Pellistri.........Hannibal..........Sancho
Hojlund
Zirkzee
Wheatley
What strikes me with this, is that the 2nd team could easily be mistaken with a First XI from recent years.Bayindir
Heaton
Dalot..........De Ligt......Martinez.......Shaw
Mazraoui......Yoro.......Maguire.......Amass
.....................Lindelof......Evans.......Malacia
Casemiro......Mainoo
Berge/Ugarte.....McTominay
Collyer...........Eriksen
Amad.......Fernandes.....Garnacho
Antony...........Mount.........Rashford
Pellistri.........Hannibal..........Sancho
Hojlund
Zirkzee
Wheatley
Having this "perceived" level of depth, allows us to add a star name here and there in the future, to really push on.
The basis of all successful teams is the defence, and you feel with signings of De Ligt, Mazraoui and Yoro (if he’s as good as they say he is), we easily have our best defenders post Fergie era. Don’t underestimate how important it is nowadays for defenders to be able play out from the back as well, with players like Licha, De
Ligt, Shaw and Mazraoui we are now more than capable of that, they all have the technical ability to play through the press. That’s almost as good as defensive squad as any in Europe imo!
We’re still lacking experience up front, and need a DM/CM (or 2), and a bit of luck with injuries, but I think the squad is finally shaping up to something that’s going to be consistently competitive domestically and in Europe. I think we’ll also see just how good a manager Ten Hag is now he’s been properly facilitated. So maybe not competing for the league title yet( Citeh, Scousers & Arse are more advanced with developing their squads) but much closer to them and possibly slightly ahead of the like of Spurs, Villa and Chelsea? There’s definitely more than a reason to be far more optimistic than at the start of the past 2 seasons in terms of the squad, you can now slowly see something special being structured together. That’s my 2 cents anyway and I do know what I’m talking about without sounding arrogant hopefully.
Ligt, Shaw and Mazraoui we are now more than capable of that, they all have the technical ability to play through the press. That’s almost as good as defensive squad as any in Europe imo!
We’re still lacking experience up front, and need a DM/CM (or 2), and a bit of luck with injuries, but I think the squad is finally shaping up to something that’s going to be consistently competitive domestically and in Europe. I think we’ll also see just how good a manager Ten Hag is now he’s been properly facilitated. So maybe not competing for the league title yet( Citeh, Scousers & Arse are more advanced with developing their squads) but much closer to them and possibly slightly ahead of the like of Spurs, Villa and Chelsea? There’s definitely more than a reason to be far more optimistic than at the start of the past 2 seasons in terms of the squad, you can now slowly see something special being structured together. That’s my 2 cents anyway and I do know what I’m talking about without sounding arrogant hopefully.
Hojland / Zirkzee
Garnacho/Rashford- Bruno/McTom - Amad/Antony
Mainoo/Mount - Ugarte/Casemiro
Shaw - Martinez/Maguire - Yoro/DeLigt - Dalot/Mazr
Onana / Bayindir
I'd see it more like the above and ideally in a dream scenario like below come end of the windowGarnacho/Rashford- Bruno/McTom - Amad/Antony
Mainoo/Mount - Ugarte/Casemiro
Shaw - Martinez/Maguire - Yoro/DeLigt - Dalot/Mazr
Onana / Bayindir
Hojland / Toney
Garnacho/Rashford - Bruno/Zirkzee - Amad/Antony
Mainoo/Mount - Ugarte/Casemiro
Shaw/Kadioglu - Martinez/Maguire - Yoro/DeLigt - Dalot/Mazr
Onana / Bayindir
Garnacho/Rashford - Bruno/Zirkzee - Amad/Antony
Mainoo/Mount - Ugarte/Casemiro
Shaw/Kadioglu - Martinez/Maguire - Yoro/DeLigt - Dalot/Mazr
Onana / Bayindir
With youngsters ready to get a few minutes - Amass, Collyer, Obi Martin
Hopefully sell - Eriksen, Lindelof, Hannibal, McTominay, Sancho, Wan B
Ivan Toney is contentious but I'm only thinking of a last minute bargain bins lucky signing. If no one wants him with 2 days left we should bid 30 mill and see if they will sell rather than loose for free. I wouldn't want him for 45/50. If not him then someone else that can get us goals.
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It's looking good. I really hope we get Ugarte to share minutes with Casemiro, that would really make us a serious team. The lack of goals is a concern but with no outgoings, we'll get to see if our forwards are of United quality this season - and I think they can be.
On paper Hojlund should get us 20, Zirkzee 10, Rashford 15, Garna 10, Bruno 10 and Amad 10 - That's 75 goals there which was enough for 4th last season. If the others can also chip in, and we are solid in defence while remaining injury free, we may end up surprising a few people this season. It's up to those forwards to work hard and hit those numbers (which they are more than capable of), and the solid structure we're building in defence and midfield will help unlock the best out of our attack.
Just for some perspective these were our starters and squad the season before ETH took over:
De Gea
Henderson
Heaton
AWB..........Maguire......Varane.......Shaw
Dalot......Bailly.......Lindelof.......Telles
.....................Williams......Mengi/Jones...................
McTominay......Fred
Matic.....Pogba
Garner...........VDB/Mata
Greenwood......Fernandes.....Rashford
Elanga/James.......Lingard.........Sancho
Cranky Grandpa CR7
Martial
Cavani
We've come a long way in improving on squad depth, talent, age profile, balance of the team and desire to play for the team. If we get Ugarte done and stay injury free, I'm going to be cautiously optimistic. We won't win any major trophies but we can hopefully end up close to the top 2-3 as opposed to a distant 4th/3rd, and crack on from there.Henderson
Heaton
AWB..........Maguire......Varane.......Shaw
Dalot......Bailly.......Lindelof.......Telles
.....................Williams......Mengi/Jones...................
McTominay......Fred
Matic.....Pogba
Garner...........VDB/Mata
Greenwood......Fernandes.....Rashford
Elanga/James.......Lingard.........Sancho
Cranky Grandpa CR7
Martial
Cavani
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Is that a league only prediction?
This formating makes so much more sense! Stealing it for the OP
It'll cost you...
Double squad depth all the way 'cross the sky
Yeah, yeah, so intense
Yeah, yeah, so intense
Yeah league only, it doesn't need to be these exact numbers but 75 goals scored consistently and shared between these 6 players is very achievable (A contrarian might say it's not and there is a fair argument there, but on paper this is very achievable).
Keep in mind I am setting these targets contingent on us getting Ugarte + the team staying (relatively) injury free. The midfield/defence additions will only help our attack further - Ugarte should be a key piece if we can get that deal done.
At the end of the day, it's not only going to be about number of players but also how well they can gel up together to make team > sum of individuals. I remember we had a similar thread like this at the start of that Rangnick season when we were gung-go on squad depth. Turns out DVB wasn't that good a player as we thought and Jones/Bailly aren't exactly backup players and neither are Maguire/Lindelof starting quality! Who'd have guessed that?
I think you're overestimating a bit. Have we even had a striker score 20 league goals since RVP? I can't see Hojlund getting more than 15, which would still be pretty good.
We just need more goals from the rest of the squad.
Tbh, if you're a club that isn't competing on all 4 fronts (and that's to actually win the PL, CL, FA Cup and League Cup) it's such a monumental waste of resources and money.
70 points is what it takes to get top 4, that means you can afford to drop points in circa 18 league games. (20 wins, 10 draws, 8 losses). The Europa league games aren't also very difficult for the most part.
If you're trying to get 90 points in the league while also trying to compete in the CL it makes sense why you might need that sort of squad depth. A team challenging for the league can only drop points in 10 games, while they're also playing far more difficult games in the CL.
This is where we've constantly gone wrong in the last 10 years. Unnecessary depth, for a club that that doesn't have the talent to compete for the top prizes and for the most part isn't actually aiming to do it anyway (we've never gone into a season expecting a genuine title challenge in the last 10 years).
70 points is what it takes to get top 4, that means you can afford to drop points in circa 18 league games. (20 wins, 10 draws, 8 losses). The Europa league games aren't also very difficult for the most part.
If you're trying to get 90 points in the league while also trying to compete in the CL it makes sense why you might need that sort of squad depth. A team challenging for the league can only drop points in 10 games, while they're also playing far more difficult games in the CL.
This is where we've constantly gone wrong in the last 10 years. Unnecessary depth, for a club that that doesn't have the talent to compete for the top prizes and for the most part isn't actually aiming to do it anyway (we've never gone into a season expecting a genuine title challenge in the last 10 years).
I am not yet optimistic.
1. During summer windows, we tend to deem most signings successful but they have to perform on the pitch first.
2. This line up doesn’t look too great on paper yet - it is overly dependent on teenagers who are bound to be inconsistent and their backups arent good enough. Lots of question marks on Rashford, Mount and Casemiro (even Onana).
3. Where will the goals come from?
4. Injuries injuries injuries.
The caf is famously pessimistic about new signings. The likes of Antony, Mount, Hojland and Martínez were all heavily criticised as being over priced, not good enough, or too short to succeed here. There's definitely an air of optimism this year though, and i think it's justified.
Only 2 teenagers are in that 'first' XI, and this is far from the most inexperienced squad. The whole point of this post is that we actually look like we're in a position where we can rotate if someone's form drops or we get an injury.
And goals typically come from the forwards, listed above
Caf maths bahaha. We wont be getting that kind of money for McTominay, Lindelof nor Antony. I also dont see us shifting on Rashford. At present Sancho with some prayers might leave.
Its pretty widely reported we cant bring anyone in without making sales first so I think that clearly says we dont have a warchest to go on a spending spree. At best we shift on Sancho and yeah then we would spend. So likely one player in off the back of whatever we get for sancho.
We still don't know who will play at left back on Friday. It's the same issue as last season. Hojlund is injured and we don't have a back up striker who can replace him. He cannot possibly play 60 games a season!
Overloading on CBs fixes the lesser problems imo. Replacing a PL proven RB with a injury prone defensively suspect RB seems like a backwards step.
Overloading on CBs fixes the lesser problems imo. Replacing a PL proven RB with a injury prone defensively suspect RB seems like a backwards step.
I just want us to sign/own a complete footballer in his position.
Seems like every player we own is always one aspect away of from being consistently great.
Seems like every player we own is always one aspect away of from being consistently great.
Did you miss the Zirkzee signing?
Yes, sorry that's what I meant, the issues can be solved in a couple of years but it needs everyone on the same page ie manager, scouts, your director like Edu. Your recruitment atleast is now going in the right direction with younger players. I am 100% sure 2 years you'd spent the same money on 30 year olds instead of Yoro.
I predicted United 5-6th just because I felt Villa are better gelled, same for Spurs. However now I don't feel Spurs have strengthened massively and I think Villa will struggle with the CL demands, Chelsea are rubbish and I feel Howe will get the sack at some point and I am not convinced of Liverpool, so there is a good chance to have a run at 4th. I won't call it comfortable which you did Rojo however, as Yoro is injured, De Ligt's injury record isn't the best either and your negative goal difference last year shows there's some work to be done especially if you don't sign another midfielder it won't be easy for Mainoo.
Till Pep remains, unfortunately the league is of the standard where you need 90 points to guarantee the title including periods where a team needs to win 10-15 in a row showing an insane amount of consistency and even then it may not be enough (see us last season) and United are not near showing this level of consistency next season which is what I meant @Rojofiam
Neither do you
Yes but goals aren't our main concern, as evidenced by our scoring numbers the last 2 years and especially the last year. Where as its an issue for you, your goal difference points to that.
Not to say you're entirely wrong, as I still believe we are a top striker away from winning the league and going further into the CL. Someone even in the mould of Giroud who can come and give us something different but I don't think the club has any more money this window unless we sell.
Look I would love to be in the same mood as you, but I have been on this place much longer than you, and any window we have had 3 or more first team signings, most people have called it a very successful window (including the last one by me and others). So I will wait for a few matches first.
Also our recent history of flops from the germany league is making me nervous.
We are relying on too many young/inexperienced players - Mainoo, Garnacho, Amad, Hojlund, and Zirkzee.
We have scored 57-58 goals per season in last three years. Thats about our level currently and unless we improve significantly, we wont be near the level to challenge for the league. Currently its difficult to see how, except for another fluctuating year upwards for Rashford or relying on the aforementioned young players to do magic.
Yeah, I wasn't disputing that you guys are lacking in the goals department. More reacting to you using it as a stick to beat us with, when you don't have a Haaland yourselves.
I agree with your main point in that we are no title challengers right now. Though I don't actually think we are as far away as you'd think. Probably only one more Summer window similar to this one that consists of four or five signings.
Why wasn't he playing in the charity shield when Mainoo was? Is he going to play on Friday? I suspect not. Until Hojlund comes back the team will be without a real striker.
And that's perfectly fine. We can't hoard players just because a player might miss a game or two.
This. I can't believe we haven't signed a DM yet and also another possession midfielder. Without two new midfielders who can help day one, I can't see a path to a good season.
What’s this nonsense we are in for Jarrod branthwaite again at 60mil? Haven’t we enough defenders now…midfield is priority from now on.
Not annoyed at all. Your opinion isn't outlandish. But if you take city out of it, which seems almost certain if their case goes ahead in November, I really don't think our squad or 1st team are behind the competition at all. As long as we sign a couple of good midfielders along with the 2 defenders and this appears to be the plan. As I said, I'd give Arsenal the slight edge due to the experience of the last couple of seasons and their time to gel. But if there is a gap in quality, it's not huge at all.
Of course, we could have another season blighted by injury and need a new manager by christmas. Football can be like that. But with a much more rounded squad the manager has the opportunity to actually rotate players who need a rest or are out of form. Something he hasn't had to date. I think that will make a huge difference. Time will tell.
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Ok thanks.
I don’t think it’s being contrarian to say I think you’re overestimating quite a bit here. Even with Ugarte and fewer injuries.
Højlund hasn’t hit 20 league goals in his career yet.
Last season we had:
Bruno 10
Højlund 10
Garnacho 7
McTominay 7
Rashford 7
Amad 1
You’re expecting double the return from Højlund, double Rashford and outstanding returns from Garnacho and Amad for young wingers as well as Zirzkee getting double digits debut season.
It's OK to hoard CBs though?
Malacia I'd still assume is the 2nd LB as Amass is too young still. McTominay I'd move to being Casemiros backup. Not directly, but he becomes the physical presence in case Casemiro is out and Ten Hag reshuffles them. Ugarte/Berge... Let's wait on that, I hope we don't get Berge and Ugarte so far seems unlikely. Current backup midfield pairing is McTominay with Eriksen, and amount ahead.
Between Amad, Garnacho and Rashford I'd imagine they'll be pretty evenly split playing time and that's a good situation to have. Sancho vs Antony, well I assume Sancho will leave and Antony will stay as 4th choice but who knows.
Not comfortable with our midfield situation but the rest seems pretty good, if a little bloated with 3rd choice options on big money in multiple of those areas.
In:
Ugarte (loan + obligation) = €10m loan fee
Fofana = €25m
Berge = €30m
Hermoso = €0m (€5m signing fee)
Out:
McTominay = €30m
Eriksen = €4m
Casemiro = €20m
Lindelof = €8m
Hannibal = €8m
Not that hard in reality, especially given the wage savings from Casemiro and Eriksen.
Personally I would lower our valuation on McTominay to €25m as that alone as an academy signing probably unlocks us to be able to sign Ugarte on loan and Fofana. The other additions are more nice to haves IMO.
Yeah a realistic goal output for the league only I'd say would be:
- Hojlund - 10-15 goals
- Rashford - 10-15 goals
- Bruno - 10 goals
- Zirkzee - 10 goals
- Garnacho - 5-10 goals
- Amad - 5-10 goals
- Other mids/attackers - 5-10 goals combined
- Defenders - 5 goals combined
- Own goals - 0-5 goals
We aren't hoarding centre backs. We have 6. One of whom we would clearly like to sell (Lindelof). In that event, it would leave Evans as our 5th man for a year before he leaves too.
The league is just about being relentless and grinding out results week in week out. If you think about it we should be able to win home and away against the bottom 12 teams. Thats 72 points. That's probably 4th. That leaves 42 points left against the top 7 teams. 20 points from that and we are contending for a title/ 2nd.
Yes I know it doesn't work like that! But this is what City do. They are relentless machines. Especially come Feb/March. And this is how we should look at it. Just grind out results.
I like the squad has a variety of play styles. The direct with Rashford/Garnacho/Hojlund but we also have Amad, Zirkzee, Mount, Bruno that can play more intricate and hopefully break down low blocks. The defense with Case/hopefully Ugarte can in theory get us a low goals conceded count.
I'm quietly optimistic which I haven't been for ages. But we need the DM. If we manage a LB and another attacking option then we should have no excuses to get top 4 minimum, hopefully higher depending on the other teams. Next year we just need to add one or two signings that will raise our ceiling. The 80-100 mill signings
Yes I know it doesn't work like that! But this is what City do. They are relentless machines. Especially come Feb/March. And this is how we should look at it. Just grind out results.
I like the squad has a variety of play styles. The direct with Rashford/Garnacho/Hojlund but we also have Amad, Zirkzee, Mount, Bruno that can play more intricate and hopefully break down low blocks. The defense with Case/hopefully Ugarte can in theory get us a low goals conceded count.
I'm quietly optimistic which I haven't been for ages. But we need the DM. If we manage a LB and another attacking option then we should have no excuses to get top 4 minimum, hopefully higher depending on the other teams. Next year we just need to add one or two signings that will raise our ceiling. The 80-100 mill signings
Yeah certainly it could be overestimating (which is why I said I wouldn't disagree if anyone thought this is unrealistic), but these guys have the ability to make those numbers - I'd never use it as a stick to beat them with if they don't, but I have a decent amount of confidence in them to get there. We'd need those numbers to be close to the top 3 rather than be just above 5th - which is my expectation from United this season (sans mitigating circumstances).
In terms of players who need to double their output - Hojlund can certainly double his output, he's got what it takes to do it and things started clicking for him towards the second half of last season. Rashy has shown he can put in a stellar season before, he has all the tools to get to 15 PL goals a season.
Bruno - has already got his 10 goals
Garnacho just needs to add 3 goals to his tally (do-able), Amad is 1 in 4.3 90s so with more game time I'm confident he can get to 10 goals.
Zirkzee - scored 11 last season in Serie A, I know it's his first PL season but I'm sure he'll have that ambition to match those numbers.
Now do I think they will achieve those targets? 55/45 probability that they won't imo, but if those 6 fall short of that target by say 15 goals I know the others will chip in to get us to 4th. So 75 goals expected from those 6 players if everything clicks (which would help us finish closer to the top 3), 60 minimum (Which should get us 4th).
Listen to talkshite and Sourness and Jordan , our squad is no better than last season and expect the same outcome as last season.!!
Well I'm hoping for something better than last season.. now nobody has taken any notice of how we played v City on Saturday especially those 2 mentioned, it's a nothing game and it will be forgotten as Pep put it! Why were they so overjoyed to win it then!...
Pre season has been up and down.. I honestly think that if we can play with a settled back 4 or at least top cover not scratching around for CB or fullbacks all season, we be OK.. top 4 isn't a long shot like most think it is imo..
Well I'm hoping for something better than last season.. now nobody has taken any notice of how we played v City on Saturday especially those 2 mentioned, it's a nothing game and it will be forgotten as Pep put it! Why were they so overjoyed to win it then!...
Pre season has been up and down.. I honestly think that if we can play with a settled back 4 or at least top cover not scratching around for CB or fullbacks all season, we be OK.. top 4 isn't a long shot like most think it is imo..