They did beat Barca quite frequently no? Also Bale - Benzema - Ronaldo with Kroos - Modric - Casemiro behind is better than anything City or Pool can put out currently.
So where is Modric rated in best CM’s of all time ?
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They did beat Barca quite frequently no? Also Bale - Benzema - Ronaldo with Kroos - Modric - Casemiro behind is better than anything City or Pool can put out currently.
Yes I know, we were talking about Real's peak circa 2015-2018.
Even then, Real weren't beating them routinely.
Real Madrid only beat them once in the league if you discount the SuperCopa.
I blame the Glazers we didn't sign him before Spurs. No value in the market..
I looked online Real Madrid H2H against Barcelona from 2015-2018 1-1-4, which included Barca beating them 4-0, 3-0 and 5-0.
So are people putting Modric above Scholes now? before the cafe had Scholes the best of all time along with Xavi and guys like Pirlo and Modric were the tier below
it was voter fatigue. Xavi has had better seasons than that e.g. actually winning
In the last few years he's definitely put himself in the tier with Xavi and Iniesta. He's probably the most perfect midfielder of the generation, he could play in any system, formation or league.
Xavi is still no.1 though. Unfortunately youtube videos do more justice to Iniesta and Modric's game, particularly with the dribbling and runs from midfield. Xavi's game really has to be watched in the context of the game to truly grasp how amazing of a midfielder he was. The way Messi embarrasses defenders is how Xavi used to control opposition midfields into submission.
I'm not really surprised at some of the horrendous views by some of Xavi.
Xavi is still no.1 though. Unfortunately youtube videos do more justice to Iniesta and Modric's game, particularly with the dribbling and runs from midfield. Xavi's game really has to be watched in the context of the game to truly grasp how amazing of a midfielder he was. The way Messi embarrasses defenders is how Xavi used to control opposition midfields into submission.
I'm not really surprised at some of the horrendous views by some of Xavi.
That's the league only right? I remember some other games, like the Copa final, the supercup and one or two others off the top of my head that Real won.
Don't worry Gerrard is still behind all of them
He's one notch below them for me. He's prettier to watch than Xavi and has those flashy moments of quality but Xavi was relentlessly consistent quality. Modric is consistent too but he's likely to have games where he's part of a midfield that doesn't perform but he may come up with a lovely moment/dribble /pass. Xavi is more likely to put out a dominant midfield display that doesn't allow your midfield to be run ragged in the first place.
I do not use the word “flawless” lightly, but Xavi in his prime fit the bill.
His technical acumen in the field is simply unmatched.
Xavi at his peak was, well...
Modric is amazing though. No doubt about it. Not quite great as Xavi, not quite decisive as Iniesta, but like you merged a bit of both in him.
Modric is amazing though. No doubt about it. Not quite great as Xavi, not quite decisive as Iniesta, but like you merged a bit of both in him.
They beat Barcelona only once during the threepeat era(2015/16-2017-18) in the league, that too a 2-1 win, while drew once and lost 4. Yes they won the super Cup in 2017/18 quite convincingly, but that was season when they finished third in the league, 17 points behind Barcelona.
Now compare that to Barcelona during 2008-2011 period. They never lost to Real Madrid bar in one match, that Copa Del Rey final in 2011.
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During 3-in-a-row Champions League titles seasons (15/16, 16/17, and 17/18) Real Madrid and Barcelona played 8 times, 6 times in La Liga and 2 times in Supercopa.
Season 15/16
Real Madrid (manager was Rafael Benítez) - Barcelona 0:4
Barcelona - Real Madrid (manager was Zinédine Zidane) 1:2
Season 16/17
Barcelona - Real Madrid 1:1
Real Madrid - Barcelona 2:3
Season 17/18
Barcelona - Real Madrid 1:3 (Supercopa)
Real Madrid - Barcelona 2:0 (Supercopa)
Real Madrid - Barcelona 0:3
Barcelona - Real Madrid 2:2
Therefore, H2H Real Madrid vs. Barcelona: 3-2-3 (1-2-3 in La Liga and 2-0-0 in Supercopa); and with Zidane as manager Real Madrid has a positive score 3-2-2 during 3-in-a-row Champions League titles seasons.
By the way, Zidane faced Barcelona 11 times as manager of Real Madrid: 6 wins / 3 draws / 2 losses and Real Madrid never lost a game at Camp Nou with Zidane as manager!
Luka Modric played 26 times against Barcelona and has 11 wins / 5 draws / 10 losses.
People are going way overboard with their evaluation of karim and Madrid right due to the amazing season both are having, that evaluation will be stabilized a few seasons down line.
His longevity is extraordinary though , at 37 neither xavi or Iniesta were playing at this level.(and Scholes wasn't this good in this age)
His longevity is extraordinary though , at 37 neither xavi or Iniesta were playing at this level.(and Scholes wasn't this good in this age)
Zidane had been impressive I give you that but 2015-18 didn't really dominated Barcelona of 2015-18, which lets be honest was a two levels or three below 2008-11 Barcelona, especially given Xavi retired, Iniesta wasn't really the same after hitting the old age and they were replaced by the players who were very unlike Barcelona. The fact we have to add the Spanish Super Cup results to make the record seem more favourable for them, really shows that it wasn't exactly an staight up dominance. Which was the whole point of discussion which started.
If you have a team and need a top midfielder, Modric is the man. No fixed formation yet? no problemo.
If you are Barca..... pick Xavi.
If you are Barca..... pick Xavi.
Hence dude struggled for a year in Madrid and for half a season for Spurs, because he needed time to settle, let's not make it like Modric fit in like hands in glove to any formation from day one.
Of course not day one. But we have seen how some players are adaptable while the others are not, means they have to play in a very specific way to get the best out of them. At least with Modric, it will bear fruits. No one said it happened instantly. Would you say that young Pogba was at least as talented as young Modric? yes. Now fast forward several years later, he's about to turn into a boomer and still doesn't know his best position despite managers with different philosophies trying him out in different positions. Guy is just not adaptable. The team has to adapt to him.
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Yeah, the barcelona side of Messi, Neymar and Suarez, who won the treble in far more dominating fashion than they did under Guardiola(and was very clearly better than the 08/09 version), set a record for goals scored in a season and won the league twice while reaching 90 points or more for 3 seasons in a row at the zenith of La Liga, was 2 or 3 levels below the Guardiola side
Exactly. Every player needs time to adjust to a new environment; especially when he is in a foreign country, does not know the language, the issue of trust from teammates etc. Also it should be taken into account that Modric lives a quiet family life, comes from a small country, he was not interesting to non-football media and as such he did not have the aura like many media-exposed footballers from England, Spain, France, Germany, Brazil, etc.
However, regarding Modric's first season in Real Madrid, well, he came without a pre-season and initially Mourinho used him all over the place in various positions and because of stupid poll where Modric was voted worst signing of the season (Barca fans voted Modric) a myth was created that he struggled for a year in Madrid. Actually Modric had a successful first season, he played in more than 50 games for Real Madrid in 2012/13 season, and after his goal against Manchester United in the Champions League no one doubted him anymore.
How consistently successful he is in Madrid is illustrated by the fact that Modric reached the Champions League semi-final 8 times in 10 seasons with Real Madrid! In current Real Madrid starting lineup only Modric, Benzema and Carvajal were also in La Décima starting lineup! (It should also be mentioned that Modric reached quarter-final with Tottenham which is a great achievement.)
By the way, Iniesta also reached the Champions League semi-final 8 times (in his 16 seasons with Barcelona).
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The game changed for Xavi and his football, I've never seen teams come up with such extreme tactics to try to combat Spain and Barcelona in that era. And as soon as Xavi declined, football went back to normal again, that possession dominance went with him. Barcelona haven't got to the CL final since Xavi left (7 years and counting), Spain haven't got to a major final since he retired (8 years and counting). So you can claim that he was just part of a system, but why haven't those systems functioned the same way since he left? Because he was the system.
Spain, in particular, have played a static and poor imitation until very recently. The 2018 World Cup in particular, it was stale and I think people misunderstand what Xavi did for Spain and put him a level above their other technical midfielders. Spain have often had possession for possession's sake since Xavi. For Spain, Xavi's passing was always purposeful. Tom Cleverley or anyone can pass the ball sideways, but it's manipulation of the game and choice of when to play safe and when to take a risk that Xavi was the master of.
Chelsea were at about their prime I believe.
Scholes was always a level below.
I don't particularly understand this obsession with imagining teams from different eras facing each other. What clubs have to do is beating what is put in front of them and the bigger the trophy they lift the better.
Also, we are tired of seeing theoretically superior teams get eliminated in European competitions, so determining the results of those imaginary games is nothing but a perfect exercise of pointless digression.
Also, we are tired of seeing theoretically superior teams get eliminated in European competitions, so determining the results of those imaginary games is nothing but a perfect exercise of pointless digression.
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Don't agree. His biggest asset is unbelievable consistency. He is basically (almost) the same player that played in Dinamo. That's the amazing thing, the awareness, ability to drag the team. Yeah, he struggled with the pace in England, but that's natural after our farmers league.
Here he is against Arsenal in CL at the age of 19 I think.
Also, he is on the last reserve. Watching him and you can see he is preserving energy for the last half an hour in an important match. Will be chasing shadows unfortunately against that City team.
David Villa's decline was an even more significant factor in the later spain teams not being able to win close games like their peak version. they usually still created plenty of chances post-xavi even if the passing game was now a level below, but lacking an elite striker will kill even the best possession teams. Spain would have been lucky to win one of their three back to back tournaments with someone like Morata in place of Villa.
I can't believe you are trying to suggest that David villa was more important or more impactful than xavi.
City now don't have an elite striker, it's not as important as you make out. In fact city have struggled for top class attacking players outside of aguero since they become Rich.
Yeah, the barcelona side of Messi, Neymar and Suarez, who won the treble in far more dominating fashion than they did under Guardiola(and was very clearly better than the 08/09 version), set a record for goals scored in a season and won the league twice while reaching 90 points or more for 3 seasons in a row at the zenith of La Liga, was 2 or 3 levels below the Guardiola side
The Enrique side had better forwards, but the Guardiola lot was a better team, that much was obvious from watching both sides.
Zidane's clasico record : 6 wins, 3 draws, 2 losses
Sounds pretty dominant to me.
I wasn't trying to suggest that, what i was saying is if i was Spain fan i'd rather have him back for the last few tournament cycles than Xavi. I watch most of their games and during this time post both players retiring, they 99% of the time have way more than enough effective possession to win the midfield battle and almost always create a high volume of effective chances against whoever they play...they just miss most of them and have an inconsistent defence. A clear upgrade in striker would be worth more than a clear upgrade in possession orchestrating midfielder.
I'm quite comfortable saying i think Villa was equally important to the midfield for the peak spain too. Especially for the world cup win. It was a collective triumph between the great midfield and an elite forward that gave them the necessary cutting edge (two for 2008 with Torres still peak) not some Di Stefano figure taking both the creative and match winning sides on his back, which i see the praise of xavi creeping more and more towards over the years.
And sure it's not impossible to create a great team without a great forward, but even with City they HAVE had Aguero for most of their success. They aren't a good example until very recently.
I agree that Villa was really important for Spain, not just for goalscoring but also dribbling and ball control (Iniesta for that too) but say compare Koke and David Silva in the 2018 World Cup to Xavi and people will say ‘oh that’s another technical midfield schemer that passes it tidily’, without realising how much better Xavi was at that from even good midfielders. It also shows up Busquets that he has limitations, a very good midfielder but not an all-time great without Xavi or Iniesta. The only Spanish midfielder that can do that these days to anywhere similar level is Thiago who can do that in stretches of good form but he’s nowhere near as durable and consistent as Xavi was when he was playing 60 games a year and in all the biggest games.
Yeah, the barcelona side of Messi, Neymar and Suarez, who won the treble in far more dominating fashion than they did under Guardiola(and was very clearly better than the 08/09 version), set a record for goals scored in a season and won the league twice while reaching 90 points or more for 3 seasons in a row at the zenith of La Liga, was 2 or 3 levels below the Guardiola side
The side wasn't as dominant as Pep's one, and the side become worse from that 2014/15 treble winning team as it approached 2017/18.
Based on what? The best version of Guardiola's Barcelona managed 96 points in a weaker league, lost the spanish cup to a weaker real madrid, and had an easier run through the CL compared to the 14/15 Barca side, who got 94 points in the league and managed a treble, against superior competition. The 08/09 Guardiola side that won the treble was the weakest of his era and I don't think it was better than the 16/17 Barcelona. The 09/10 and 11/12 also weren't better than the 15/16 side
Dominant is just a word, in reality the MSN side was actually more dominant in its victories than the Guardiola sides...
I agree but the way I look at it is I thibk Modric if he had to could play that controlling type midfielder well, but Pirlo could never play how Modric does
I don't see how 14/15 was a stronger league at all.
That MSN side gets forgotten in history for me because people always bring up the Pep versions Of Barca first. Sad really because I thought that team was as good as any Barca team I’ve ever seen even if they played a different style.
3 top sides as opposed to 2. Imo also a stronger league behind them, though mostly it's just 08/09 season that brings the average down