So when are we going to get off our backsides and challenge this City/Liverpool dominance of winning trophies?

Waking up today felt so weird seeing Liverpool won the title. Ole, I wish you can stop the scouse winning their 20th title next season. I firmly believe we're one or two signings away to become a top side, coupled with our players growing into maturity... we can challenge next season. At the very least.

Some will say we need a better manager, I however, believe in this process. Next year it is.
 
TheNewEra said:
United aren't much worse than Dortmund honestly, just the German league doesn't has as strong of a league as the EPL.

You're forgetting one thing too, he wants to be in the EPL and he wants a wage increase (that's also important), coming to Utd would increase his pay by 200%. Dortmund can't pay the wages United can.

Sancho was also part of the City academy for 2 years, he knows Manchester so it's not like it would be a big lifestyle transition.
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Just curious: How do you know this?

From various sources, they say Sancho is currently earning approximately £190,000 per week at Dortmund. You make it sounds like Dortmund is paying Sancho peanut, which they are not. Do you think we will pay Sancho the realm of £300,000 - £400,000 per week? When he is still 20 and just arrived at Manchester United? What if another Sanchez situation appeared with Pogba/Martial/Rashford being unhappy with the monstrous wage we give to Sancho? (Mind you, we still haven't gotten Sanchez off our payroll yet.)

All in all, it's not as cut-and-dry as you make it out to be regarding the financial side of this transfer. We can't pay him that much more compared to his Dortmund wage right now without serious consequences.
 
We missed a trick when the great man retired in 2013 and we are paying for it ever since.
In my opinion we still have not replaced him. I truly hope I am wrong about that.
Klopp's quality was obvious when he was at Dortmund. He should have been our man to replace SAF.
If Klopp stays at Pool they will dominate.
We will be competitive and probably beat them in one off games but we are miles off having the consistency needed to win the big prizes in my opinion.
 
United, the Glazers. and Woodward need to take a long hard look at themselves and our performances in the last decade or so. The only reason Liverpool have won a title is because WE HAVE LET THEM DO IT. If our club was managed better we would have continually improved ourselves to stay at the top.

We haven;t.

Utter dicks run our football club and this is why we find ourselves in this position now
 
We need to get more players at the age of Bruno and Maguire when we get them. You see the instant impact those two have made. Stop with these naive thinking of getting 16 y.0. players, hoping 15 years of service from them.

That's not how Liverpool and City have done to get where they are. Life is too short by doing a "5 year project" to turn fruitful. So many things could happen in between.
 
Isotope said:
We need to get more players at the age of Bruno and Maguire when we get them. You see the instant impact those two have made. Stop with these naive thinking of getting 16 y.0. players, hoping 15 years of service from them.

That's not how Liverpool and City have done to get where they are. Life is too short by doing a "5 year project" to turn fruitful. So many things could happen in between.
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Fernandes is top drawer, but Maguire is extremely average and we need better. £85 million for him, even in today's transfer market, is bonkers.
 
PoTMS said:
Truth is Ole isn't in the same class as Klopp and Guardiola so for as long as they are here, we will need to settle for third place at best. We need improvement in quite a few positions, even in positions we've recently strengthened in.
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That's the harsh truth. But hopefully Ole can get us closer. If not then obviously he should be replaced.

Top managers make top teams.
 
Not sure one season of winning the PL warrants the term dominance. Although I'll admit that I do think Liverpool look likely to repeat the feat.

As for us, what's new? We all know the answers. Get a top manager who builds a top team. There's not much more to it than that.
 
Isotope said:
Extremely average? The cost is overpriced but he's a good signing that made instant impact.
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He's definitely not average but he's also not a proper too defender. Somewhere in between. A top 4 defender if you will.
 
I really don't think this should be about big investments. That's what everybody seems to focus on (we're not buying enough! we're not buying the right players!), but that's never going to be enough. Liverpool have a few great players, but overall, their squad isn't awesome in every position; and some of those that look awesome now, would probably 'just' look good in other teams. (Just like many of Klopp's Dortmund superstars couldn't make it in other teams.) Rather, Klopp and Pep have found a reliable way to pretty much beat every single non-top team every single time. That's not down to players, that's down to tactics. Of course, you also need players that are at least pretty good, but United has a lot of those already. Undoing packed defenses and towing away buses won't suddenly happen if you just buy Sancho, or whatever potential superstar is out there. To really make that next step and get some 20-30 points more next season, Ole (and same for Lampard at Chelsea) will need to make a tactical leap.

The problem is that it's really a huge leap; except if Liverpool and City slow down a lot next year, every title challenger will pretty much need a 100% win record against the bottom 15 teams, and good to great results against the rest. I don't know if Ole has it in him to get there. I don't mean that negatively; I just really don't know. But if he doesn't, I don't think you can blame him. How many managers out there have ever accomplished this sort of relentlessness that we're seeing now from Liverpool and City? Still, if United want to challenge, I think that should be the focus, rather than just buying a couple of Sancho's (in different positions) and putting them all on the pitch together. (Although as Pep himself admitted, you certainly can't do it without good players!)
 
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Cheimoon said:
I really don't think this should be about big investments. That's what everybody seems to focus on (we're not buying enough! we're not buying the right players!), but that's never going to be enough. Liverpool have a few great players, but overall, their squad isn't awesome in every position; and some of those that look awesome now, would probably 'just' look good in other teams. (Just like many of Klopp's Dortmund superstars couldn't make it in other teams.) Rather, Klopp and Pep have found a reliable way to pretty much beat every single non-top team every single time. That's not down to players, that's down to tactics. Of course, you also need players that are at least pretty good, but United has a lot of those already. Undoing packed defenses and towing away buses won't suddenly happen if you just buy Sancho, or whatever potential superstar is out there. To really make that next step and get some 20-30 points more next season, Ole (and same for Lampard at Chelsea) will need to make a tactical leap.

The problem is that it's really a huge leap; except if Liverpool and City slow down a lot next year, every title challenger will pretty much need a 100% win record against the bottom 15 teams, and good to great results against the rest. I don't know if Ole has it in him to get there. I don't mean that negatively; I just really don't know. But if he doesn't, I don't think you can blame him. How many managers out there have ever accomplished this sort of relentlessness that we're seeing now from Liverpool and City? Still, if United want to challenge, I think that should be the focus, rather than just buying a couple of Sancho's (in different positions) and putting them all on the pitch together. (Although as Pep himself admitted, you certainly can't do it without good players!)
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It has to be a combination of the two. For example, see the improvement we've had with Pogba and Fernandes starting instead of Periera and another CM. Or the improvement of Greenwood instead of Lingard. It makes a huge difference. But I have always felt the bigger gap is between us and the really top teams is the standard of coaching. We have generally been the worst coached and managed big team for years now.

I'd love to see us make the step up soon, but my fear is that Ole will be given next season where he'll struggle and well again have to get a new manager. Rinse and repeat.
 
We have sqaundared so much cash on shite players. Seriously, I dont think any top side has spend so much and achieved so little. Buy decent players in the positions we need and dont get distracted by flavour of the month, we'll be back on top in 3-4 years if we overhauled the way we recruit. 85 mil on Maguire? Insane.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
It has to be a combination of the two. For example, see the improvement we've had with Pogba and Fernandes starting instead of Periera and another CM. Or the improvement of Greenwood instead of Lingard. It makes a huge difference. But I have always felt the bigger gap is between us and the really top teams is the standard of coaching. We have generally been the worst coached and managed big team for years now.

I'd love to see us make the step up soon, but my fear is that Ole will be given next season where he'll struggle and well again have to get a new manager. Rinse and repeat.
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Oh yeah, I absolutely agree. That's what I meant with the Pep quote: you can't be truly successful without both quality on the pitch and quality in coaching. I really have no idea what Ole's ceiling is. The team does seem to have improved this year, and not just because of Fernandes and Pogba. But another few steps are necessary to catch up with the top 2.
 
Ole is the right man for the job. Look at our record versus the top 6, to claim he's tactially naive is nonsense. Give him the right players and he'll win you the league.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
He's definitely not average but he's also not a proper too defender. Somewhere in between. A top 4 defender if you will.
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He's as slow as a week in Strangeways, turns like a battleship and is a suspect tackler. He heads the ball very well, but £85 million for that? No, I would rather have Lindelof and find him a new partner in defence.
 
el3mel said:
Didn't they lose the league again and crash out of CL in 16th round against Lyon the very next season after such market ?
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They did, but the signings of Ronaldo, Benzema and Alonso eventually proved critical in Real Madrid’s rise from 2011-2014.
 
Rory 7 said:
Shouldn't forget West Germany either. Haven't seen even a team from West Germany in years.
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Okey said:
Might be a minority opinion, but I don't think we're that far away. We're getting better and better as a team, especially with beating teams that we should beat. It's all up to the money men. We have to keep the foot on the gas and kick on. No stagnating or looking back. Look what Bruno alone has done to the team. Get Sancho, a quality CDM who can go most of the season (Zakaria for me but what do I know?), and another central midfielder for elite depth (Grealish for me but there's options) and we could truly be challenging as soon as next season if we keep improving like we are doing now. Ole doesn't have to be a better manager than Klopp or Pep for us to challenge. Not like he's done badly against them this season by the way. It's all up to the board this summer. Kick on in the transfer market and we have a real good chance...
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I’m with you on this one. We have managed to build a team that is capable of winning any game. We just need to sort out the consistency issues.
Players in the starting eleven that don’t need to be replaced include Shaw, Maguire, AWB, Pogba, Fernandez, Martial, Rashford. That’s a total of 7 outfield players. The others Like , Fred/Mct , Lindelof/Bailly, James, can potentially be improved on and that automatically makes our depth great .
As for how good Ole is, I don’t know but 5yrs ago were thought Mourinho, Van Gaal etc we better than him.
 
Hopefully Ole knows that he has to be ruthless towards the deadwood in the summer but defend in public. He can definitely improve on a few different areas in the team such as

Shaw at LB
Matic cover at DM
Bruno/Pogba cover at AM
Proper RW
CB cover if we can get Rojo & Smalling out

Personally in order of priority I would go RW,DM/AM,CB,LB
 
Cheimoon said:
I really don't think this should be about big investments. That's what everybody seems to focus on (we're not buying enough! we're not buying the right players!), but that's never going to be enough. Liverpool have a few great players, but overall, their squad isn't awesome in every position; and some of those that look awesome now, would probably 'just' look good in other teams. (Just like many of Klopp's Dortmund superstars couldn't make it in other teams.) Rather, Klopp and Pep have found a reliable way to pretty much beat every single non-top team every single time. That's not down to players, that's down to tactics. Of course, you also need players that are at least pretty good, but United has a lot of those already. Undoing packed defenses and towing away buses won't suddenly happen if you just buy Sancho, or whatever potential superstar is out there. To really make that next step and get some 20-30 points more next season, Ole (and same for Lampard at Chelsea) will need to make a tactical leap.

The problem is that it's really a huge leap; except if Liverpool and City slow down a lot next year, every title challenger will pretty much need a 100% win record against the bottom 15 teams, and good to great results against the rest. I don't know if Ole has it in him to get there. I don't mean that negatively; I just really don't know. But if he doesn't, I don't think you can blame him. How many managers out there have ever accomplished this sort of relentlessness that we're seeing now from Liverpool and City? Still, if United want to challenge, I think that should be the focus, rather than just buying a couple of Sancho's (in different positions) and putting them all on the pitch together. (Although as Pep himself admitted, you certainly can't do it without good players!)
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100% agree. Their managers buy right and have tactical setups that are superior to most. That the two best managers at those things would end up at our rivals has to be the most annoying thing happened after SAF retired.
 
After today. I don't think we can trust City to stop Liverpool next season. We'll need to step up if we want to challenge the league. I'm not too gutted for Liverpool to win it this season, they've been so consistent and very good so they deserve it, end of the day, they'll win it again one day and unfortunately it's this season. I'll be more gutted if they win it while we're challenging with them and even more gutted if they reach 20th so let's hope somehow we or other team can stop them from reaching that 20th next season.

We've been inconsistent which is something common for young players. Realistically, we need one more season & two summer transfer windows before we can start talking about us challenging them IMO. We need a world class of Rashford & Martial. However, if each of them can score more than 20 league goals, I'll say we can be in consideration to challenge the league.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
He's definitely not average but he's also not a proper too defender. Somewhere in between. A top 4 defender if you will.
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Watching City and Chelsea today, I think Maguire is superior to any CB they have. If Maguire get injured, we're fecked. That's how important he's to our (statistically pretty good) defence.
 
I've always felt like we could spend £500million in a year and still not win the League. I think this is the same for the other teams who'd like to try and build to mount a challenge for the major silverware and I think it is shown in the approach taken by each of those clubs at the moment. Even Chelsea have taken the route of using a club legend as their manager to try and bring more guile out of their players and try to develop youth. We've done that ourselves with Ole, while Arsenal look set to try and mimic this with Arteta and can never really spend big money anyway.

Every team is taking a different approach to try and spend a little less money in terms of net spend, trust some younger players and let the project develop over a few more years. I think there is an acceptance that Liverpool & Manchester City are much better than everyone else and there is no quick fix to prevent or even closely challenge that any time soon.

I think it'll be another season or two before anyone looks like they can break this rhythm, hopefully it's us. But yeah, Liverpool or City will win the title next season and I'd probably say the one after that as well. But the one after? I think ourselves and Chelsea in particular will be looking mighty good by then too.
 
11reds said:
I disagree on De Gea, Shaw and Lindelof. I think they have cost us points and results time and again and if we want to get to Liverpool level's we need to sort that.

I would have more faith in Williams and Henderson than De Gea and Shaw. We need to get ruthless with players like Jones and Lingard and sever ties with them.

I agree regarding the Europa League it would be a winnable nice boost for the club.
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De Gea is still one of the best GKs in the league even though he`s past his best. If worst comes to worst we have Henderson so no biggy there. Lindelof in certian games especially in Europe is a very solid option. For the more proactive games we still have a fit Bailly to call upon but like I said we`ll buy a CB if Jones on top of Rojo/Smalling leave. I don`t completely disagree on Shaw like Lindelof/Bailly Shaw and Williams are useful for certain games but a LB is needed eventually but for now a CB, No10 and RW should be the main priorities. If we don`t properly sort out those 3 positions expect another torrid season.
 
Ekeke said:
I feel like this has been said pretty much every season since SAF left

We never do well enough in the transfer market to sign those 2 or 3 quality players without going backwards somewhere else
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True that. We are some way off winning the league at the moment. Let's not kid ourselves. But Liverpool also had a monster season with a lot of VAR luck. Now that they have ended their 30 year wait - I see next season being much closer. Look at City's tally at the moment.

We need to make sure we finish out this season with 6-7 wins from here on, and the sqaud learns how to be ruthless. That's step 1.

After this is over, ED and Management need to back Ole and give him proper RW, quality CM back up, and quality LB back up.

I really don't like the fact that our quality outside the first XI is so shoddy. One injury to Bruno or Pogba and we are back to playing Lingard and Andreas.
 
adexkola said:
I didn't want to say anything but yes you are correct
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Still, Ronaldo, Benzema and Xabi Alonso all turned out to be hugely successful signings for them who played a big part in their eventual successes.
 
We have become very passive over the last few years and we seem to be just happy that we make into the top 4 than anything else. Look at this season, the amount of money we have spent and people are "happy" that we are challenging for top 4! Spurs have imploded, chelsea didn't even have a transfer window and Leicester are ahead of us.

We haven't spent well over the last number of years and every manager that we have brought in hasn't been the right fit. The club just isn't run properly and that is truely shocking when you think of the wage budget and the income that we have.
 
Its just consistency. Title winning teams perform week in week out. We have proven we can beat anyone. Bar Liverpool, Man City and Chelsea we should be capable of maximum points from the rest. That should be 96 points. Sure its not that clear cut you will loose to lesser sides but maybe win against a top team. But just theoretically there is no reason why we cant do it right now. But here come the buts. Can we stay clear of mass injures. Can Rashford and Martial kick on and both score 20 plus. Can Fernandes kick on and have a brilliant complete season. Will Pogba stay and perform week in week out. Will De Gea stop making mistakes. And on and on.
You could say oh but you can say that about any team. You cant. We have the youngest squad and all with great potential. Its there for them to find the next level. Question is. Will they.
Add to that a couple of good signings - Sancho + Partey for example and I dont see any reason why we cant live with the big boys.
Time will tell but the future looks like its there for the taking if only we can take it.
 
Isotope said:
Who's this "much better' CB that is available?
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That's a different question and not my decision. We fans can only comment upon what we see, not make signings. It's down to the manager to spot and sign players of the required ability. Do you really think Maguire is a long term winner for us, at 85 million? I want far more that money; he's an average EPL defender, but no more.
 
Things change really quickly in football. Man City are on the decline and Pep is there 1 more season max and will be focussing on the champions league. Liverpool have overachieved under Klopp but its cyclical and he wont be there forever.
United and Chelsea are only getting better over the next 2 years and I can see United/Chelsea fighting it out in a couple of years time.
 
Raw said:
When Pep and Klopp leave.
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Unfortunately this is our biggest problem. When I saw that Klopp had gone to Liverpool I knew were in big trouble. And Pep was always going to guarantee trophies at City, any manager would with that squad. We have been left behind with poor managerial choices who have wasted millions on their individual ideals of football rather than the club demanding the direction. The club seems to be making the direction now but it’s hard to know if Ole can really push us into the next level. We hope he can but I can’t see him being able to. We are, after all, about to miss out on top 4 yet again in a season that it should have been a guarantee given how poor the rest have been. 7 years now since we even challenged for the title now. Depressing.
 
Suv666 said:
Ole is the right man for the job. Look at our record versus the top 6, to claim he's tactially naive is nonsense. Give him the right players and he'll win you the league.
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It's not about beating the top 6, it helps, but it's about beating the Watfords, West Hams, Aston Villas, Bournmouths, Newcastles...Ole has struggled against all of these teams and dropped a massive amount of points. Bad results happen, but some of those matches you would have bet your house on us showing up and trashing them and yet, we didn't.
 
Wayne's World said:
Now this isn't me criticizing Ole or the players or anything but seeing Liverpool ending their 30 year title drought tonight and watching the likes of SkySports and BT wanking over them has really got me thinking about our current standing. Now tonight hurts, I'm not going to lie I think seeing Liverpool win the league is one of the things I probably wanted to avoid as much as possible in my life, it hurts and I hope the United board and Woodward (Highly unlikely that they care) and Ole and the players (bit more likely) are hurting from this. We have watched possibly the greatest Manchester City team of all time win numerous trophies, one after the other and god forbid they have a Champions League that they are still going for in August and we now seen arguably one of Liverpool's finest sides win not only a title but won a Champions League and Club World Championship in the past 12 months.

So anyways what I'm trying to ask, with the current rebuilding job happening at United. When does it become a stage when we can't keep making excuses that we are rebuilding and keep watching the likes of Liverpool and City win trophy after trophy. I totally understand that there's alot of problems with deadwood in our squad but with three or four new signings who slot into the team, I think we possibly have a team that can get to that level of where City and Liverpool are and it needs to start fast.

We are too big of a football club to watch our biggest rivals win the trophies we now crave for. I'm not saying we have to go out and win the Premier League next season or challenge for the Champions League but we really need now to start seeing progress where we can beat and challenge for trophies again. It's grand rebuilding now to bigger and better things but it's been nearly 12 months now and I do think Ole has a fair idea of what we need and hopefully he can get the players in, If not him, then someone else who can do what the likes of Klopp and Pep have to do their respective teams.
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Simple answer is when the board and fans stop accepting mediocrity as the new norm. Am a newbie but have always read comments on here. When I see fans defending average players like Lingard I know we have a problem. We also overate our players. I know this will upset many people but I don't see why Rashford is elevated to some kind of first team starter star no matter what. I don't think he is good enough to be starting games for a title chasing team simply because he is not a striker and using him as a left sided attacker is wasting that left wing position by not investing in a world class player there. We may not get him, but someone like Leroy Sane. So my point is replace average players in the starting line up with real world class players. The way I analyse our situation is to try to place any player in the current team into the 1999 treble winners. In my opinion, no one today gets into that team. Therefore it's clear to see that we are mediocre and have accepted that as normal.
 
JPRouve said:
This tweet does my head in. Following that it took them five years and hundreds of millions spent to win the CL and they only won 2 league titles in 10 years.
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Then you look at us and see how much we have spent over the last number of years and have won feck all in the grand scheme of things.
 
Having a good squad of players is one thing but w/o Klopp or Pep these teams wouldn't be having this sustained period of success. I love Ole but sadly its a realisation not lost on a few of us that he isn't the elite level manager to bring that sustained success we desire. Its always that extra 5-10% that distinguishes the good from the great...and our current ownership is merely satisfied with the good!
 
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