So we didn't sign a central midfielder

Ash_G said:
They would all have functional midfields that can give the base for the better attacking players to attack in those games. We don't have that, if carrick is out there is very little defensive protection an personally I wouldn't say any of the midfielders offer a reliable attacking outles to even balance this out.
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I think a lot of this comes down to I believe Jones is a very valuable midfield player who could do a fine job if ever Carrick was injured.

If we lined up with

---------Jones-----------
----Cleverley--Kagawa----
Nani---------------Welbeck
--------RVP-----------

In a big game I'd be happy with that.

Cleverley (Anderson)
Kagawa (Rooney)
Nani (Valencia)
Welbeck (Young)
RVP (Chicarito)

Would be the backups as well which I'd be happy with.
 
Twigginater said:
Well yeah I think that first quote you've got sums up a lot of my stance. We obviously aren't that bad in midfield.

And I was very happy when RVP signed. I'd be happy if we signed a top class CM tomorrow. I'd be happy if we signed a top class winger, or a top class full back.

But I expect the management to know more about this than me. Wen we signed RVP last year and tried for Moura people were laughing at Ferguson. RVP wasn't needed and to get Moura was simply laughable. Out of nowhere Carrick was the best CM in the league and we'd have loved Moura available. My point isn't that it's not good to strengthen, my point is that we're in an incredibly privileged position and whatever happens we're good enough to deal with it.
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Difference being that most people on here actually acknowledge that our midfield just isn't as strong as the rest of our team and has been the weak part in an otherwise excellent squad for the last 3-4 years, and therefore want the club to actually do something about it. You can continue to be positive and happy, and derogatory to anyone who doesn't hold your ridiculously over the top stances on our midfield because "we won this and that and therefore I'm correct", but it's pretty clear to everyone else, including our manager and board, that it's not up to the standard required.
 
Twigginater said:
Out of interest who would be Chelsea's midfield?
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Lampard and Ramirez are their first choice midfielders. Unlike us they'll play with three midfielders and Oscar is much more a midfielder than Rooney. They also have Mikel and Essien there as covers if one of their midfielders gets injured, while they also have that Dutch player (which I admit I haven't seen playing more than two games, but people seem to rate him). While they don't have anyone as good as Carrick, I think that both Lampard and Ramirez are way better than Cleverley. And they have enough cover for that position we don't have.

I expect them to dominate in midfield in Monday. I agree that they aren't that much better than us there, but still I think they are better. No coincidence why they dominated all games against us last season.
 
Cina said:
Calling someone a scumbag classes as a quality put down?

Christ, your tagline really is apt nowadays.
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Yeah, it was to the point and carried a classic timelessness. Put downs needn't be particularly witty or original to be effective and this one was vintage gold.

A quality put down: 8.7/10
 
Solius said:
I'm surprised we aren't in for a young midfielder as well as Fellaini/Fabregas. Someone like Vilhena, Leitner, Ward-Prowse or Will Hughes. Sure we've got Powell but those I've mentioned are a step ahead of him and surely could be attainable.
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We aren't even sure that Powell is a midfielder to be fair. We have that interview of SAF who said that he can play as a midfielder but SAF is not our manager anymore. Powell played as AMF for Crewe Alexandria and played the same (or as a striker) for our reserves. Even in academy the only central midfielder who looks good is Pearson and even him is three years away from the first team.
 
Twigginater said:
I think a lot of this comes down to I believe Jones is a very valuable midfield player who could do a fine job if ever Carrick was injured.

If we lined up with

---------Jones-----------
----Cleverley--Kagawa----
Nani---------------Welbeck
--------RVP-----------

In a big game I'd be happy with that.

Cleverley (Anderson)
Kagawa (Rooney)
Nani (Valencia)
Welbeck (Young)
RVP (Chicarito)

Would be the backups as well which I'd be happy with.
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But we've got nothing to test that against. We have a tough enough time as it is when carricks there, we don't know what jones would be like actually holding. I know he did some for Blackburn but that was differently he was almost a 3rd cebtreback.

Jones has shown he can do a very good man marking role but again that's very different. The majority of the tine we've seen him he's been all over the place in the middle.

I wouldn't be comfortable at all going thorough an extended period with jones in for carrick. Which brings me to my main view point. I think you can have a boring functional midfield that is solid a long as you have the attackers ahead if them. All the top teams in the league have this, however unlike us they all have multiple options that will given them a solid fondation in the middle. Carrick aside we don't have that and if we don't sign anyone, it doesn't have to be a star, a squad player would do then we are again taking a massive gamble and one injury to carrick and the title challenge could be over.
 
Jones is an absolute mess in midfield unless his job is to literally stick to the other teams best player for the entire match. You need Carrick on the pitch too to compensate for him, he's not even remotely a backup for him.
 
Twig's basic philosophy seems to be "look at all the shit we've won; we've had an unbelievable 20 odd years so there's no point moaning about anything. Ever."

Fair enough, really. It's good he manages to stay so positive all the time and stick with it. There's just no point in him coming in with his ultra positive stance in every single thread. It's even more pointless trying to argue with him.
 
Solius said:
I'm surprised we aren't in for a young midfielder as well as Fellaini/Fabregas. Someone like Vilhena, Leitner, Ward-Prowse or Will Hughes. Sure we've got Powell but those I've mentioned are a step ahead of him and surely could be attainable.
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Yeah that's what I've not understood. Not getting a recognised name is not something I'm too hung up on, it would be great but I don't think we need it to win the title. But a young understudy for carrick, someone who can come in and do his job in the way jones and smalling can come in, in defence surely can't be that hard to identify and sign. That for me would make the squad just that bit stronger and stop us being so reliant on carrick.
 
We effectively have three midfielders, only one of which is currently of the required quality to be first choice. We are clearly desperate to bring in a player or two.
 
People are forgetting that Carrick has dictated the games for us. Can Jones do that? Absolutely not. He can do a good job as a man-marking player or as a destroyer but there is no way he can compensate the creativity of Carrick. If Carrick is out, I think our best chance to survive is by playing Jones as a DMF and both of Cleverley and Ando in midfield. Even there, we are not sure that Ando isn't injured and how good that midfield could be. I hope we don't have to see it.
 
Solius said:
I'm surprised we aren't in for a young midfielder as well as Fellaini/Fabregas. Someone like Vilhena, Leitner, Ward-Prowse or Will Hughes. Sure we've got Powell but those I've mentioned are a step ahead of him and surely could be attainable.
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Buying a young midfielder would be a continuation of the errors we have been making these past few years, imo. How? Cuz if we get a young midfielder and he doesn't immediately come good, we'll be thinking he'll come good next season, and the next and so on...This is why it seems to me that we are desperate to sign midfielders who are sure to do well.
 
kps88 said:
Twig's basic philosophy seems to be "look at all the shit we've won; we've had an unbelievable 20 odd years so there's no point moaning about anything. Ever."

Fair enough, really. It's good he manages to stay so positive all the time and stick with it. There's just no point in him coming in with his ultra positive stance in every single thread. It's even more pointless trying to argue with him.
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He might be forgetting that some of that could have been down to the manager.
 
MDFC Manager said:
Buying a young midfielder would be a continuation of the errors we have been making these past few years, imo. How? Cuz if we get a young midfielder and he doesn't immediately come good, we'll be thinking he'll come good next season, and the next and so on...This is why it seems to me that we are desperate to sign midfielders who are sure to do well.
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I'll agree about this, but being this late on transfer market I would be over the moon if we sign one of McCarthy/Kongodbia. While we cannot guarantee that they'll be world class players, I think that they'll provide much better cover for Carrick than anything we have. Of course, the best scenario would have been to sign one of them and a quality partner for Carrick (Cesc, Thiago, Modric, Gundogan) but that seems to be impossible now. Heck, if we sign even Fellaini (whom I wouldn't want at all two months ago) I would be happy cause we would ensure that a potential injury to Carrick wouldn't destroy our season.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
He might be forgetting that some of that could have been down to the manager.
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"If Moyes was good enough for SAF, he's good enough for me. SAF and our board certainly know more than us. This is the same squad that won the league last season; why bother improving on that?! We'll be just fine no matter what. GGMU. "
 
After Hodgson, Ferguson and Allardyce all used Jones in midfield more than they have than in defence and now Moyes has also used him there in pre season, why are people so against the idea of him playing there?
 
Twigginater said:
After Hodgson, Ferguson and Allardyce all used Jones in midfield more than they have than in defence and now Moyes has also used him there in pre season, why are people so against the idea of him playing there?
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Cause he looks a bit shit there, and Allardyce and Hodgson aren't the best examples you could have chosen. Anyway, both SAF and Hodgson have used him there either in case of emergencies or like last season against Madrid when we were playing against a better team (again because of midfield) and we had to defend for the entire two games. Jones played as a destroyer there but it's very debatable that we want to play like that for a majority of games.
 
It's not like Jones himself said he's a center back and that most of his best games for us were in defense and most of his worst games for us were in midf... oh wait.
 
I reckon Jones' best games (V Madrid and the run around Christmas two years ago) have been in midfield, while some of his worst (Blackburn 4-3) have been at the back. Never comfortable with him in CB.
 
You're nitpicking.

Technically I guess he was a midfielder against Madrid seeing as that's what his position showed him as on the teamsheet but I guess "following Ronaldo around wherever the feck he goes" doesn't really have a designated name as a position.
 
Solius said:
I'm surprised we aren't in for a young midfielder as well as Fellaini/Fabregas. Someone like Vilhena, Leitner, Ward-Prowse or Will Hughes. Sure we've got Powell but those I've mentioned are a step ahead of him and surely could be attainable.
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Can´t really judge about the others, but Leitner would not have been any help for United. He was just loaned to Stuttgart for two years in hope that he gets more playing time there than in Dortmund. His situation would not be different at Old Trafford.


Twigginater said:
Right ok, so we wouldn't have a very good midfield if Carrick got injured.

Would Arsenal have a better midfield if Wilshere was out? Would Man City without Yaya? Would Chelsea without Ramires? Would Tottenham without Dembele?
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I think that the others have already answered most, but I will take this post as an example for something I realized some time ago and could be a reason for not signing any quality midfielder. In terms of CM quality, the EPL is in difference to basically every other squad part not really that well-placed. This may come in handy for United in terms of the title race, but a club like United should at least look to challenge for the CL.

If I look at the three continental teams in the weight class of United (Bayern+the Spanish giants), then United is easily outclassed, but even the teams half a drawer lower like Juventus, Dortmund or Paris have stronger central midfields than United. Could turn out interesting, because they could actually face two of them (either Paris+Dortmund/Juventus or Paris/Juventus+Dortmund depending on the qualifier results) already in the group stages.

Now imagine such a draw together with a Carrick injury.....
 
If we don't sign a midfielder (which we're not going to) we're not going to win anything this season.
 
Cina said:
You're nitpicking.

Technically I guess he was a midfielder against Madrid seeing as that's what his position showed him as on the teamsheet but I guess "following Ronaldo around wherever the feck he goes" doesn't really have a designated name as a position.
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That is the problem I can't understand with people who say that Jones is good in midfield. If we play Barca and Real tomorrow I would be happy to see him in midfield doing a man marking on Ronaldo/Messi. But for the other 50 games of the season, he is lost there. Unless we try to become an ultra-defensive team or change our style completely, playing with a diamond with Jones and another three more creative midfielders in midfield. With 4-4-2 (4-2-3-1) Jones is not suited to the midfield job for 95% of the games in a season.
 
Twigginater said:
Wait if it's simply not good enough how the hell did we manage to fluke the prem and do so well against Real last year?
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You can win trophies even if some areas of your team aren't really top class.
 
Sarni said:
It's the fourth year in a row although this time I took it into consideration that it may change because we have a new manager. It does seem like it's going to stay the same though unless he takes Fellaini. The laughing smilies and abuse I get for saying that decreases with each year passing though, in 2010 I was called an idiot over and over again, even more so in 2011 but less in 2012 and now.
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The most annoying were people who claimed. We didn't a cm. Some claim we still dont.

Iirc i claimed in 2009 we would struggle to bring in a proper cm.
 
United should look at Rode from Eintrakt Frankfurt.. Next in line for big things in Germany. Turned down Bayer Munchen. We could most certainly use him much better than De Bryune that Chelsea are raving about.
 
I wonder who we'd of signed this summer had Fergie still be in charge, I'm not necessarily thinking a midfielder because let's face it he didn't address the midfield either but he'd of surely signed someone :/
 
charlenefan said:
I wonder who we'd of signed this summer had Fergie still be in charge, I'm not necessarily thinking a midfielder because let's face it he didn't address the midfield either but he'd of surely signed someone :/
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I think Fergie would have been succesful with Thiago. Personally i think we lost out to Thiago for waiting around too long. Moyes seems very undecisive concerning transfers. While SAF was always quite resolute with his dealings. If he was sure about a player, and there was an opportunity to get him (like a release clause) he would never have waited to seize it. SAF always rated Thiago, he tried to sign him in 2011, i think he would have acted a lot quicker and with more resolve to get him at United before Bayern started sniffing around him. I red somewhere Moyes wasn't sure about him, and i think he lost time negotiating about the price because he refused to pay a few million more to resolve some contractual issues with the clause. Also we lost time because we had to wait until Moyes was settled in the job before approaching him, the transfer window was already open a couple of weeks by then.

I also think SAF would have brought in Benzema. He would not have accepted the situation with Rooney, but he would also not allow him to leave to a rival. I think he would have made an offer for Benzema involving Rooney in the deal. SAF has always been a Benz fan, and i think with the Rooney situation, this would have been his exit plan.

I don't know weither SAF believes we needed extra power in the midfield. I for one think we do, but i think SAF doesn't, because he has never made a move for such a midfielder. Perhaps he would have given up on Anderson. I really think Anderson's skin got saved with the Moyes coming in, new manager always more likely to give his players a fresh start and a new chance. We must remember for Moyes, the entire squad is new, so there aren't any absolutely useless players for him (yet).If SAF got rid of Anderson, i think he would have signed a replacement, probably one of either: Wanyama, Strootman or Fellaini (SAF would have also paid that release clause or close to it and not £16m).

Finally i think we wouldn't have bid for Fabregas with SAF still in charge.
 
charlenefan said:
I wonder who we'd of signed this summer had Fergie still be in charge, I'm not necessarily thinking a midfielder because let's face it he didn't address the midfield either but he'd of surely signed someone :/
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Yep I also think we would have signed Thiago if SAF was in charge, he would have probably given a personal phone call or something like that to convince him.
 
Jones is a very average midfielder. Quite a poor one actually. Can be used as and extra body against great teams but not much else. Also when he is used like that our use of the ball becomes significantly worse. He's a defender. Lot of defenders can sometimes do a destroying job in midfield, does make them decent midfielders (see pepe put in midfield by real.)
 
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