Are we gonna have one of those threads after every game now?
So Jose Was Right?
- Thread starter 432JuanMata
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He was right, but also wrong. He had the right idea, but the wrong approach. Simple as. Should never have been the choice after Van Gaal.
Still the manager to give us the highest points tally post-Fergie though. 81. We've not got close since.
Still the manager to give us the highest points tally post-Fergie though. 81. We've not got close since.
A lot of what Jose says was and is correct, the problem is that it doesn't matter. I could walk into the United dressing room tomorrow and rip half those players to pieces on their effort levels, form, diet, weight, dedication etc and I would be 100% right. That doesn't mean that when they went out on the pitch on Saturday we would magically have fixed all our issues. Shockingly they might actually play worse!
Mourinhos problem is that he was a top manager at a time when managers had more power than players and when the manager said jump, the players said how high. Being a top manager now is almost as much about managing egos and motivation as it it coaching tactics etc.
Players know that if they don't want a manager they can get him sacked even if the manager hasn't done anything wrong. I don't get the impression that Mourinho likes that or puts up with it.
Mourinhos problem is that he was a top manager at a time when managers had more power than players and when the manager said jump, the players said how high. Being a top manager now is almost as much about managing egos and motivation as it it coaching tactics etc.
Players know that if they don't want a manager they can get him sacked even if the manager hasn't done anything wrong. I don't get the impression that Mourinho likes that or puts up with it.
Agree completely but I think Mou knew it which is why he deliberately brought in players like Ibrahimovic and Matic who'd jump through walls for him.
Most of his signings tended to be consummate professionals who didn't/don't have big egos - Mkhi, Bailly (mad as he is), Lindelof and the two above.
Lukaku and Pogba are the outliers.
Jose also blamed for his team's underperformances: physios, refs, owners, fixtures, players who dared to request a sub after picking up a knock, journalists, other teams that dared to be defensive. When his teams shithoused their way to victory it was always his genial, calculated tactical approach, but when things were not going his way it was always foul play and he had no agency at all despite making all the decisions that lead up to the problem.
To be fair pogba was a bigger star than us at that point of time. His heart is not won. He's here for the contract and the fame. And at that price and jose attitude it's a recipe for disaster
If only his second to none reading of players could translate into anything besides generous payoffs for going away these last 8 years.
He might have actually challenged for top honors instead of challenging for the best soundbites. That might've actually gotten him a job at a club of his stature when they were available and he was looking rather than settling for making the rounds with the B and now C-tier sides of Europe
It makes me wonder now and the question is moot now but what if we got rid of Pogba, Martial and others Jose wanted to get rid of and gave him the three players he wanted that year. Yes I know one was Maguire. He was right about Shaw too and he was only good for one year and even now he goes to England and talks about the atmosphere at United etc, where he says he is not as happy as with England etc.
Also the difference with Pep and Klopp is if they are not happy with the players, they get dropped and eventually sold. With us we side with the players and degrade the Manager. It happened with Jose, Ole and now Ralf.
Also the difference with Pep and Klopp is if they are not happy with the players, they get dropped and eventually sold. With us we side with the players and degrade the Manager. It happened with Jose, Ole and now Ralf.
And we are fighting to be in the Europa conference
Mourinho had a woeful transfer record with us. I don't understand why people believe that buying Maguire a year earlier and splashing another >40 million on Perisic would make an impactful change after his transfers of: Pogba, Mkhitaryan, Bailly, Lindelof, Lukaku, Matic, Sanchez, Fred and Dalot.
When Mourinho came to the club probably the only undroppable player was de Gea and he had freedom to play the veterans as much as he wanted or to bench or demote anyone. The problems with support only came after ~2 years when it turned out that his record signing was next on the chopping block and Woodward noticed that 400 million spent and exploded wage budget didn't really improve the team, so possibly giving him a free reign is not a great idea in the long run.
Yes, we're really not doing ourselves any favours by splintering our support and the past is done now.
However, it does say something significant imo that we rarely see a player leave who then kicks on in a huge way, suggesting we're recruiting badly.
That's got to be sorted out as it looks like we're targeting the wrong sort of players even before they sign contracts.
Exactly. Plus Mourinho did want Maguire who gets as much sh!te here as any of the players named.
The decline has nothing to do with anything any fan thinks. We're spectators, not particpants.
Mourinho was a con man and toxic, mad the revisionism of him that’s going on the last few weeks. He thought McTominay was the future and bought Alexis Sanchez. Sanchez is still probably the worst signing post-Ferguson in terms of wages and impact on the team. 5 goals in 45 listless games. He also bought Mkhitaryan, then attacked his confidence and rarely played him, and set other players back a few years. A great manager once, nowhere near these days.
Jose know his stuff. Dont worry about that, wise man.
He was right but not the man to do the clear out/ rebuild. To be fair the side he shat on did get a second place, third place, Europa final. Granted it’s not good enough but they did have some mileage.
He was right about a few things. He was also wrong about a few things too. We’d have got rid of Pogba and martial a long time ago for being weak, but we’d also be saddled with a load of other deadwood like Danny Rose and Eric Dier. He might have gotten us another cup or something, but he’s way too short term to have us challenging Pep and Klopp, which has to be the aim.
We're going a bit overboard with this Jose stuff now. Regardless if he was right about certain players, what's clear is he didn't have the answer either. Lets not forget that he was practically in love with Lukaku, Young, Fellaini, Matic and Smalling. When Ole came in, we all rejoiced that he got most of these out of the team.
Ole's troops might have not been the answer but Jose's ideas for this team were probably even worse. Daley Blind has been better for us than the two CBs he bought and Maguire who he desperately wanted and Jose got rid because he wasn't a man mountain.
If he had his way this team would have Willian, Perisic, Dier, Alderweireld. Lukaku, Matic, Mct, AWB and a bruiser at LB. We wouldn't be be any better than 4th with him.
Ole's troops might have not been the answer but Jose's ideas for this team were probably even worse. Daley Blind has been better for us than the two CBs he bought and Maguire who he desperately wanted and Jose got rid because he wasn't a man mountain.
If he had his way this team would have Willian, Perisic, Dier, Alderweireld. Lukaku, Matic, Mct, AWB and a bruiser at LB. We wouldn't be be any better than 4th with him.
Yeah just because Jose May of been right about the likes of Martial and Pogba doesn't mean he had all the answers, he's managing fecking Roma now FFS he's clearly done at the very highest level and that decline started before he even arrived here
Hw was right as usual
We have made zero progress since Mourinho, and actually have regressed imo. Yes he was right about lots of things.
Madrid broke him as a coach and manager. He never recovered and it's clear he never will.
Still spot on about the mentality (lack of) of his squads.
Still spot on about the mentality (lack of) of his squads.
Him being right about our squad, doesn't mean he was the man for the job or was hard done by in any way. He moaned about absolutely everything so it was always likely he'd fall across a point or two eventually.
Think People are confusing his comments with his ability as a manager (when he took over us). Both are 2 different things.
He predicted correctly who has the right mentality to succeed at a big club . He called out the names who isn't putting the effort. He was absolutely right.
That doesn't vindicate anything he has done as a manager . He was as clueless as any other manager we had post Fergie.
He predicted correctly who has the right mentality to succeed at a big club . He called out the names who isn't putting the effort. He was absolutely right.
That doesn't vindicate anything he has done as a manager . He was as clueless as any other manager we had post Fergie.
Couldn't have summed it up any better
He laughs himself to sleep every night.
Jose, the winner.
Jose, the winner.
He tried to get rid of Martial and Pogba three years ago and he was ridiculed. He was very right with his analysis of those two.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Every club he goes too it's the players, the board, the FA, the league or anything else which absolves him of any blame.
Every club he goes too it's the players, the board, the FA, the league or anything else which absolves him of any blame.
My god man. Some of you are obsessed with him. The guy is in 5th with Roma after getting sacked by Spurs. Get a hold of yourselves.
Yes, obviously.
There's a huge difference between being able to assess the intricacies of football from outside of the dugout (like he was doing with these comments) versus being able to strategise on the fly against a rival manager inside the dugout (which is what caused him to ultimately fail on the pitch).
Jose may have lost his edge as a manager and been left behind by the current generation of top coaches. But that doesn't diminish his ability to judge players, squads, psychologies and tactics. Just like Paul McCartney is still able to be an expert musician capable of analysing anything - even if he is past his prime and unable to create his own moments of genius like he used to.
There's a huge difference between being able to assess the intricacies of football from outside of the dugout (like he was doing with these comments) versus being able to strategise on the fly against a rival manager inside the dugout (which is what caused him to ultimately fail on the pitch).
Jose may have lost his edge as a manager and been left behind by the current generation of top coaches. But that doesn't diminish his ability to judge players, squads, psychologies and tactics. Just like Paul McCartney is still able to be an expert musician capable of analysing anything - even if he is past his prime and unable to create his own moments of genius like he used to.
You saying that from the lofty heights of 6th in the PL...
He wasn't perfect, but he won trophies. Literally the aim of a football club.
Go follow Roma then. This is the United board. BTW, Mourinho was sacked for having United at the lofty heights of, you guessed it, 6th in the PL.
So Mourinho is well versed in the arts of being 6th in the PL
He was right but he also didn't know how to do anything about it except try to sell the players he wanted to buy a few months earlier.
He also wanted Harry Maguire, Michael Keane or Jerome Boateng. He signed Bailly, Dalot, Sanchez, Mkhitaryan, Pogba and fell out with nearly all of them. Hindsight is 20/20.
The mire this club is in right now would be a black hole if he was kept on a season longer.
The mire this club is in right now would be a black hole if he was kept on a season longer.
His solution would have been for him to have more control and bring in the players he and his personal scouts rated, like Harry Maguire.
So no, he wasn't right. He identified some problems while also contributing to and exacerbating others and willfully wanted to lead us further down the wrong path.
We just didn't learn the right lessons from his failure here.
So no, he wasn't right. He identified some problems while also contributing to and exacerbating others and willfully wanted to lead us further down the wrong path.
We just didn't learn the right lessons from his failure here.
I think what's ignored is how corrosive having a manager like him, who was on the way down and increasingly bitter and one who was never really interested in young players, was on the exact players that now he was apparently right about.
When he took over Marcus Rashford was a teenager who had broken on the scene out of nowhere a few months earlier, Luke Shaw was 20 and coming off a horrendous leg break, Anthony Martial was 20 and had just had a really promising first season and Mourinho was the one who bought Paul Pogba (who himself was only 23). That group, who had potential, needed coaching to develop them as players but also as professionals but instead they got a manager who wasn't interested in developing them and more interested in short-term fixes and making petty points.
The rest of our current squad is made up of players who I doubt people consider to be the issues (De Gea, Matic etc. might be issues as players but not as characters) or who weren't there under Mourinho. The real failing has been the dysfunction at the club that has meant our recruitment has continued to be such a mess, as it was when Mourinho was buying mostly shit, and also meant that we ended up going for a manager like Mourinho in 2016 in the first place.
When he took over Marcus Rashford was a teenager who had broken on the scene out of nowhere a few months earlier, Luke Shaw was 20 and coming off a horrendous leg break, Anthony Martial was 20 and had just had a really promising first season and Mourinho was the one who bought Paul Pogba (who himself was only 23). That group, who had potential, needed coaching to develop them as players but also as professionals but instead they got a manager who wasn't interested in developing them and more interested in short-term fixes and making petty points.
The rest of our current squad is made up of players who I doubt people consider to be the issues (De Gea, Matic etc. might be issues as players but not as characters) or who weren't there under Mourinho. The real failing has been the dysfunction at the club that has meant our recruitment has continued to be such a mess, as it was when Mourinho was buying mostly shit, and also meant that we ended up going for a manager like Mourinho in 2016 in the first place.
Jose and LVG somehow prevented player power from destroying the club...they had the balls to take on any player our of line no matter what his reputation...be it Di Maria or Pogba...unlike the clown who made it a cesspool.
He also wasn't nice enough to the players to suit redcafe. Remember the days? He hurt their feelings and made fans sad.
Awwww. Too bad.
Utd fans should get over the idea that Utd is special. It once was -- but Sir Alex retired and we frittered it away. (Plus some astroturf group trying to scare new players/manager away.)
Awwww. Too bad.
Utd fans should get over the idea that Utd is special. It once was -- but Sir Alex retired and we frittered it away. (Plus some astroturf group trying to scare new players/manager away.)
The problem was that both managers have won all the trophies that has to be won. LVG did not win the League in England. The man who followed them has not won anything and hence the players had more power. If the club had backed both LVG and Jose and did not force players on them or got rid of the players they wanted, we would not be in this position. At least the players would know that they cannot buck the manager and get away with it.