Clearly Mou was right in respect of dressing room issues. But I think we are close to shifting the balance. We need to show Rashford the door, or let him join Sancho in the Sulk 11
So Jose Was Right?
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Problem is that his level isn’t good enough for a title winning team. Yes he deserves praise for his form now especially after the crap he’s endured for two years but I’ve seen this happen a million times with some of these players-they have a month or two of good form and they live off that for the next few seasons as proof they’re good enough.
he had to go in the summer. Same with McTominay. Nothing changes that when you consider where the club wants to be and the level of players it should have.
And take the useless git Martial with them.
He was right about 'Starboys' Martial and Pogba
Rangnick was right too, that is becoming more and more clear the more that comes out.
Nonsense, never seen somebody call it professional for an employee to not do their job.
You speak like players can’t play for the fans , they choose not to and having zero consequences for their actions is a big problem in the game.
The main thing a lot of the modern footballers are professional at is looking after themselves. Weak minded man children.
I hated Mourinho by the end. I was never a fan of him to begin with. But I respected/respect his body of work overall prior to becoming United manager.
Mourinho wasn't afforded the same power that ten Hag has been granted. When Mourinho wanted to get rid of Pogba and Martial, the club backed the players over him. ten Hag has been allowed to discipline and move on players. He's had high profile incidents involving Ronaldo, De Gea, Sancho. Mourinho was never afforded that level of control.
And when he finished 2nd during the 17/18 season, they gave him Dalot and Fred as his only major summer signings. Yikes. ten Hag, in comparison, was given Onana, Amrabat, Mount and Højlund as major signings this summer.
Mourinho wasn't afforded the same power that ten Hag has been granted. When Mourinho wanted to get rid of Pogba and Martial, the club backed the players over him. ten Hag has been allowed to discipline and move on players. He's had high profile incidents involving Ronaldo, De Gea, Sancho. Mourinho was never afforded that level of control.
And when he finished 2nd during the 17/18 season, they gave him Dalot and Fred as his only major summer signings. Yikes. ten Hag, in comparison, was given Onana, Amrabat, Mount and Højlund as major signings this summer.
Funny thing; Rashford under Mourinho was different player. Running, fighting, pressing....
Mourinho got Alexis Sanchez in January that year, United have generally worked on full year so that would have eaten into his summer budget. While it was a swap deal, Alexis' wages were astronomical at the time. Also Amrabat wasn't a "major" signing, he's a loan deal on deadline day that could cost only 20 million.
Also why would any club back Mourinho over the players when his history shows he's left his job after either 2 or 3 seasons in the job 8 out of 8 times in his career? That was one of the few smart calls they've made. Mourinho had checked out, he did what he always does in 3rd seasons, starts whining about everything and everyone in the club, protecting his own legacy. If Mourinho's United job was in isolation you could say some of those things, but history has proven he is more toxic than the players he was speaking about.
Alexis Sánchez wasn't worked on for a full year. If anything, he was close to signing for City the summer window before he joined United. It ended up being a panic sale for Arsenal. They were at risk of losing him for nothing, so settled for getting a potentially good player in Mkhiyaryan in exchange.
Amrabat was/is a major signing. ten Hag wanted him all summer. Amrabat wanted United all summer. He waited for United.
With United failing to sell/move on Maguire and McTominay, they agreed a loan deal with Fiorentina. It's an £8.5 million loan fee with an option to buy for roughly £21.5 million. That's £30 million overall. It's only a loan deal so that United can get around FFP and keep the books balanced. ten Hag seems to have lost faith in him already. So... it's going to end up being an expensive season long loan if the option to buy isn't exercised.
United should be backing the manager if he is in the right. All these years later, he is being proven right about both Pogba and Martial. Mourinho wasn't leaving all clubs on bad terms at that point in his career. He left Porto for the Chelsea job because he had outgrown Portuguese football. He left Inter for the biggest football club in the world after securing a famous treble. He even left Real on reasonably good terms after a mutual termination was agreed with Florentino Pérez after 3 years at Real. He couldn't deliver The Champions League and it suited both to part ways. He was back at Chelsea within days after leaving. It's only really Chelsea (twice) where he has high profile exits up to that point. He had won a Premier League title just 12 months before becoming United manager. Mourinho would have had a better ending at United with the same power that ten Hag now holds. It's quite common for managers to move on every 2-3 years. Ancelotti has regularly moved clubs every 2 years or so since leaving Milan.
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That part about leaving teams in a mess has blown way out of proportion and most of the players he managed still respect him and talk positively about him. He isn't perfect and probably wasn't a good fit for United but he definitely wasn't wrong about those two players.
I 100% agree that he gave his all while at United. He was not an ideal style of a manager for United, but he was probably the most experienced we have had since Sir Alex. He should have been backed instead of petulant players and we have no reason to have anything but respect for him
He bigged himself up by belittling the club several times during his tenure here. That's more than enough reason for most fans to conclude that Sir Bobby was entirely correct when he assessed Mourinho's character, and found him unfit to lead Manchester United.
Just look at the above quote. It’s all about him. Makes drama out of nothing and was fecking terrible for this club by the end of it. He’s the petulant manager to mirror the petulant players. Should’ve retired after his Inter stint.
There's two key differences here.
Firstly, Mourinho has history of falling out with players everywhere he goes. He's done it enough that there is no doubt that he is a significant part of the problem himself.
Secondly, Pogba and Martial were two of the better players under Mourinho. Martial not so much in the first season, but at that point he was a young player with one bad season coming after a good season. Then he was our best attacker in both Mourinho's second and third seasons when he was actually given a run of games, but Mourinho just couldn't wait to drop him. Whereas Ronaldo and De Gea were older players who were obviously nowhere near their best anymore (and Ronaldo was demanding to leave and refusing to join the team before pre-season even started), and Sancho has been nothing but a failure since joining and had numerous similar incidents before joining us.
They really weren't similar situations. ETH was 100% in the right in those cases, no questions about it. Depending on what is/was happening with Varane that one might be a bit different, but we really don't know any details there. Whereas Mourinho was a huge part of the problem himself. Any manager who deliberately waits until the media is there and the cameras are rolling before going out on the training ground and telling a player that they are being stripped of vice-captaincy doesn't deserve any respect. It's the single most pathetic and vindictive thing any Utd manager has ever done in my time following the club.
He's the one you want when you've got a reasonably talented team who are comfortable sitting deep and hitting on the counter, and have a 2-3 year window to win a title.
You don't want him when your squad is mediocre and you want to develop some younger players. If there's an 32 year old nearing the end of his contract who's 5% better than an 18 year old he's playing the older player almost every time.
Just watched the full bit of his answer about his time at United and parts of it were damning. He pretty much says what we’ve all been saying, that there are some players that played under him that are still there and he knew that they didn’t have what it takes in two minutes. Said the same for some executives/non playing personnel at the club.
Interestingly enough he had a lot of time for Richard Arnold despite everyone thinking he was clueless.
Jose absolutely should have gone and did become the toxic one but he’s a serial winner and he could spot from a mile away that we didn’t have what it takes to be winners. Ronaldo and Zlatan have had the same view so it’s quite clear the culture and standards at the club are shot to pieces and only getting worse.
Interestingly enough he had a lot of time for Richard Arnold despite everyone thinking he was clueless.
Jose absolutely should have gone and did become the toxic one but he’s a serial winner and he could spot from a mile away that we didn’t have what it takes to be winners. Ronaldo and Zlatan have had the same view so it’s quite clear the culture and standards at the club are shot to pieces and only getting worse.
It’s a clickbait quote by an attention seeker. Jose is fairly measured nowadays. The full interview won’t be sensationalist.
He does.
My question to you is to name me players that he's fallen out with and have gone on to do anything of note in their careers. Mourinho does have problems with players that aren't pulling their weight and letting the team down as does most successful managers. He also does it as sort of a shit test, I remember how he fell out with Benzema at Madrid only for Benzema to get his head straight and work, he even credits Mourinho for making him see the error to his ways and how he the experience helped him become the leader at Madrid.
Mourinho fell out with Martial and Pogba, he also only fell out with Pogba towards the end of his reign as manager here. Pogba's best football at club level over the last 10 years actually came under Mourinho, since then he's been an absolute nothing player for United and Juve.
The fact of the matter is simple. Since Fergie we've had players that down tools at every small bump in the road and continue to do so. Yet, fans still back the players over the manager every single time. The main problem with us is that when we've had players fall out with the manager our management have always backed the players over the manager. Meanwhile Pep is allowed to spend 50 mill on Phillips for example, realises he's not a serious player (just from a couple of training sessions) and is allowed to replace him without any questions asked. If we signed Phillips we'd find a manager that could make it work even if Phillips will never be good enough to win a league title.
The actual quote was more damning of himself. He actually said that if he was at Madrid or Inter he'd understand the fans applause because of what he won there. But the fact that the fans of a team with a history like United will give him applause just for winning a Europa league and Carabao Cup shows that the fans knew what he had to deal with in terms of players and management.
Not at all shocked. Romano is at it all the time. Detestable cnut.
The reason we got the result yesterday was that the starting 11 was snakeless, that was a team that played their hearts out for themselves, the manager and the club. It is deficient in terms of quality, that’s clear, but I’d rather have a team of grafters than talented shitbags
Yeah I'd agree. Mou wasn't right for us because of how he wants to play the game in my opinion but his expectations of players are always fair - rule No1 is you graft for the team. He was harsh in his treatment of some players but then I look at the players he did not want to keep, Pogba he sussed out early as a bad egg for the dressing room (can't say I disagree with hindsight) and then on Rashford, Shaw, Martial, Lingard he basically said they are talented but have been spoiled/don't have the courage to play in such a pressure environment.
I sometimes think the issue is 'modern' players are all like this and you can't be as strict as before but you create the environment within the club. We have allowed it to get this bad.
Sounds like he doesn't understand English/United fan culture despite working here for so long. English fans are a lot more appreciative and don't think booing is productive. It had nothing to do with "what he had to deal with" Also remember that people had to deal with him too.
I've listened to the full interview, he was very complimentary towards Man United fans and singled out Richard Arnold as being great.
He did say there were a few people (players and non players) who were still at the club from his time who were not good enough.
Salah and De Bruyne come to mind.
Iker Casillas
Sergio Ramos
Ricardo Carvalho
Eden Hazard
Henrikh Mhkitaryan
The list goes on.
His best football came at Juve when he left us originally.
Mourinho doesn't like certain types of players hence his signings are specific. He doesn't like flair players typically and prefers pragmatic players.
They don't, the managers have been poor choices every time. Also, only 6 players from the Mourinho era are still here, and most of them don't play every week.
Pep is successful in his role. He was successful before Philips and will be after. Phillips also hasn't been replaced because he was never given a chance and people constantly question him over than, now more than ever consider City's form.
I've been saying this for a while. For all the mocking of Ole and Vibes FC, he had them performing to their potential and playing for him.
Yes, we weren't going to challenge peak City/Liverpool but that side would be fighting at the top in this somewhat bizarre season.
Then came Ronaldo, Vibes out of the window, our form becomes erratic, Greenwood had started the season flying but now sulks and turns into a gf beater, then we get wallopped by Liverpool and City. Game over.
Carrick gets two great results, leaves, Rangnick gets one half of peak Clockwork Orange against Palace and then spirals out of control.
It's the player management. Authority will only take you that far, more so with numpties at the helm. But yeah, people will keep mocking Vibes FC and its PE Teacher.
Anyone thinking Arnold was clueless has no idea what he has done for our club.
Probably not CEO/PR handling/managing public exposure material, but an absolute beast developing our commercial side.
Couldn't disagree more. Ole's style had a huge part in creating what we see here today - his management style was essentially to keep everyone happy and empowering the players. That is literally, obviously with hindsight, the worst idea in the world when your team consists of Pogba, Rashford, Lingard, Ronaldo etc.
The easiest way to show it's such a bad idea is look across the league at clubs who spend a comparable amount to us - their managers don't give a shit about massaging egos and players all being happy because they have made sure the bulk of their dressing room is made up of winners - players who understand the sacrifice, the graft, who are united because winning means so much to them. Then occasionally you get someone who causes issues i.e. Cancelo, Auba and they are jettisoned. The problem now is you see ETH coming in and finding this complete lack of a winning mentality mixed with overpaid players so they go for people they know - one thing that unites all the players already known to ETH is they are scrappy, aggressive feckers - in the hope it can change things and then you end up with this mish mash of players and the fall out from dropping someone like Sancho dominating headlines and distracting everyone. When results on the pitch fall away, then the immediate pressure always falls on the manager and not the players who keep larking around and not turning up.
You either commit to a couple of years where you undo all the issues caused by the previous regimes or you sign up for the rinse repeat cycle of manager sackings until the money runs out and we just accept we are an EL club.
He called out Rashford, Martial, Shaw and Lingard.
He's 100% correct on two of them. I hate to say it as I love Marcus Rashford, but I think in any top club he's a squad option. When he's in form he's incredible, but he's unreliable a lot of the time and doesn't do enough of the basics.
Shaw has redeemed himself and generally been reliable and played at a good level for a couple of years now. He'll be no Evra or Irwin - but not many are.
He's 100% correct on two of them. I hate to say it as I love Marcus Rashford, but I think in any top club he's a squad option. When he's in form he's incredible, but he's unreliable a lot of the time and doesn't do enough of the basics.
Shaw has redeemed himself and generally been reliable and played at a good level for a couple of years now. He'll be no Evra or Irwin - but not many are.
Except he never fell out with Salah and KDB, they were young and didn't play and didn't want to wait, they also done well that season as they kinda won the league. They also didn't reach their heights till after KDB was in Wolfsburg for 2 years and Salah had 2-3 years in Serie A.
Casillas never had a good season after leaving Madrid.
Ramos and Mourinho never fell out in fact Roma tried to sign him on a free just this summer.
The Carvalho one is wild. He literally took him from Porto to Chelsea to Madrid but you say they fell out.
Mkhitaryan just left Roma and Mourinho from all accounts was pissed he left, in fact it caused problems between the board and Jose. https://football-italia.net/mkhitaryan-mourinho-didnt-want-me-to-leave-roma/
Hazard and Mourinho did fall out in their final season. Hazard admitted to feeling guilty as his second season he was absolute shite and he was nowhere near as good as his pfa player of the year season the year before. In fact Hazard hasn't had as good a season as his first season under Mourinho since. He's now retired and ask Madrid fans about his professionalism during his time there.
Jose's clashes with players are a myth. Iker and Pogba are only 2 with whom he had real issues. On the other hand most of his former players saying only nice things about him. Especially those players who are true winners and professionals like Terry, Lampard, Matic, Materazzi, Zanetti, Motta, Kane etc etc...
But people rather make a story based on some issues with few soft prima donnas than based on his relationship with all other players.
But people rather make a story based on some issues with few soft prima donnas than based on his relationship with all other players.
He was probably right about what was broken, he just wasn't right for us.
Those players were already here and not performing, while getting called out by Mourinho, and they came up trumps.
As I said, with numpties at the helm they always would and disciplinarians will fail. So no, Ole did what could actually extract the best out of this bunch given the context.
Is it the club I want? The feck it is, but unfortunately having feckwits running it is out of our hands.
He should’ve came in after Fergie retired, I reckon we win at least one more PL. Yes we had an aging squad but it was packed with experienced leaders and strong personalities which are exactly the kind of traits Mourinho loves. He was the right man at the wrong time.
I don't think it's fair to say Rashford or Martial did not work hard. I am pretty sure they put in their fair share of hard work. You mean they work less hard than Lindelof, Shaw, Maguire, Dalot or Bruno. No one knows for sure.
Exactly, how any United fan backs him when he has proven toxic at every single club. HE is the petulant one and creates toxic environments. His behaviour waiting for the referee to give him abuse and deflect from his own accountability for losing a cup final sums him up. It would be different if these were one-offs, but he is a horrible character, that can be his "heritage".
I agree with some of your points, but Mourinho accused KdB of not training hard enough at Chelsea, and De Bruyne didn't take it well and recorded the training sessions to show he was lying. It was more than "he just wasn't playing and left".Except he never fell out with Salah and KDB, they were young and didn't play and didn't want to wait, they also done well that season as they kinda won the league. They also didn't reach their heights till after KDB was in Wolfsburg for 2 years and Salah had 2-3 years in Serie A.
Casillas never had a good season after leaving Madrid.
Ramos and Mourinho never fell out in fact Roma tried to sign him on a free just this summer.
The Carvalho one is wild. He literally took him from Porto to Chelsea to Madrid but you say they fell out.
Mkhitaryan just left Roma and Mourinho from all accounts was pissed he left, in fact it caused problems between the board and Jose. https://football-italia.net/mkhitaryan-mourinho-didnt-want-me-to-leave-roma/
Hazard and Mourinho did fall out in their final season. Hazard admitted to feeling guilty as his second season he was absolute shite and he was nowhere near as good as his pfa player of the year season the year before. In fact Hazard hasn't had as good a season as his first season under Mourinho since. He's now retired and ask Madrid fans about his professionalism during his time there.
Then mintyred mentions some Real players but he avoided the most important: Ronaldo.
Mourinho clashed with him after giving him instructions during a game, and Ronaldo answered with gestures telling him "to do one" in portuguese. It continued in the dressing room apparently, and from that point they didn't talk to each other.
The day he left Real (Mourinho I mean) he openly said that "Ronaldo thinks he knows it all" and "he doesn't want to listen for advice". He also said in another interview that he coached "the original Ronaldo, the real one, at Barcelona".
Pepe said that Mourinho should show more respect for Casillas, and Jose said that "his problem is that he's being outplayed by a kid (Varane)", and so on. These are not serial losers precisely.
Chelsea II, he accused players of faking injuries for Chelsea to save themselves for the national team. Very ugly. I think it was against Oscar and a pair of players more. Chelsea supporters surely remember this.
He did something similar at United with certain players, Smalling in particular he called him "soft" after he refused to play with pain. It turned out he had an injury that kept him out for a month.
What he said about Pogba after the World Cup was the start of the civil war at United. "If he was able to put the same effort for United he would be excellent" or something like that. I agreed with Mourinho in that one, in the sense that Pogba looks more emotionally invested with France and more casual at club level. But you can't say this about your own player publicly and secondly, I think many players would be more focused and giving their 100 % in few games during an extraordinary event as a World Cup (while playing for your country) than playing the regular season against Brentford, Luton, etc. I don't think Jose was discovering America there.
And the list goes on.
I think Angel Gomes (or some other ex-youth player, but I think it was Gomes) said once that Mourinho approached him during a team lunch, and after greeting him he started yelling for no reason and telling the kid he wasn't doing enough and he was "fecking him". The poor kid was just amazed and the other guys just told him to ignore Mourinho.
If players don't clash more often with Jose is because they're counting to 10 to avoid a conflict. The guy is mental and there's a point where people get tired of his garbage, whether they're "winners" or not. If we review his record I think that patience from players for Mourinho lasts for two seasons and a half.
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It's not a myth, more like a modern thing. Mourinho pre-Real Madrid was a great man manager. He knew how to get his team to go for a kill all for him and him alone. He was attacking the press, the referees, the opposition managers and the media but never attacked his players which led to the "us vs them" mentality. He made it as if it was the entire world conspiring on him and his players, which helped create the perfect mentality for the success.
The issues with Iker, Ramos and Ronaldo hit him hard I believe and when the players turned on him at Chelsea in his 2nd stint that's when the "us vs them" mentality his teams used to have turned into "me vs everyone else" for Mourinho. I think he became insecure. He never recovered from that Chelsea debacle. He now always had the feeling the players will turn on him at any moment like what happened so that's why he turns on them before.
He used to blame the referees or the media after every loss but now he blames the players several times for not following his instructions. He keeps on saying he told them to do this and this and the media should have recorded what he said in the dressing room to understand how he read the game perfectly but the players couldn't follow up..etc. This screams insecurity. Like he's not confident in his own abilities anymore so resorts to defend himself in public while blaming the players for not following his instructions. The old Mourinho was never like this.
I always think it's quite sad most of the new generation will only see the current Mourinho, the insecure, unconfident and miserable person who doesn't seem to enjoy the sport anymore and always has a feeling he'll get stabbed in the back by his team or his board at any moment. Many don't remember the charismatic, charming manager who was oozing confidence and personality, the manager whose players cried whenever he left their club to manage somewhere else because they were willing to die on the pitch for his own sake. This Mourinho was hit by Real Madrid and killed completely by Chelsea. Now he's just a shell of a man. From time to time he can produce a performance that's reminiscent from the past but never consistently enough.
Translation:
Jose Mourinho should have been allowed to piss away even more money on senseless transfers, continue his scapegoating of players, and not be held responsible for his shitty results and tactics.