Skizzo vs Tuppet - Tactical Draft QF

Who created a better environment for their star player to shine?


  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
16,200
Team Skizzo


Style
- direct

Central Player - Gianni Rivera
Nero Rocco said:
"Yes, he doesn't run a lot, but if I want good football, creativity, the art of turning around a situation from the first to the ninetieth minute, only Rivera can give me all of this with his flashes. I wouldn't want to exaggerate, because in the end it's only football, but Rivera in all of this is a genius."
Rivera was highly regarded for his outstanding ball control, dribbling skills, and excellent technique, as well as his quick feet, acceleration over short distances, agility, and balance on the ball, which allowed him to change direction quickly, and dribble past players with ease. Despite his notable skill, technical ability, and elegance on the ball, Rivera would often avoid undertaking individual dribbling runs or challenging defenders gratuitously in one on one situations, in particular in his later career, unless he deemed them necessary; he preferred instead to create space and chances for his team through his precise passing game and offensive movement. Indeed, above all, Rivera was known for his excellent vision, ability to interpret the game, and his sublime range of passing, which allowed him to control his team's play in midfield with short exchanges, spread long passes across the pitch, or even play the ball first time, and also made him an excellent assist provider from any position on the field, with both feet; in 2011, former playmaker and UEFA president Michel Platini described Rivera as one of the greatest passers in the history of the sport.

Despite being primarily a creative midfielder, and a team player, who preferred assisting teammates over scoring goals himself, Rivera was also known for his ability to make attacking runs and for his keen eye for goal; an accurate finisher from both inside and outside the area, he is the highest-scoring midfielder in Serie A history, and the third highest-scoring midfielder in the history of the Italian national team. He was also an accurate set piece and penalty-kick taker. Rivera is widely considered to be one of the greatest Italian footballers and one of the most talented advanced playmakers of all time, as well as one of the best players of his generation.
The 1969 Balon D'or was awarded to Rivera after his outstanding performances in the European Cup, in which he led Milan to the final, and a dominant win over Cruyff's Ajax team. His performance in that final is considered one of his greatest, most dominant performances, playing in the number 10 role, and assisting in 2 of his team's goals in that final.

In that final, Milan were set up in the same manner we have here, with a sweeper stopper combination (Tresor-Vidic to Malatrasi-Rosato), a midfield two behind Rivera who are able to allow him to concentrate on the offensive side of the game by doing the "dirty work" for him, and also offer outlets for his passing (Clodoaldo-Jansen to Lodetti-Trapattoni), flanked by two wingers who would offer a balance of stretch the play with genuine wing threat, and also cutting inside to offer a direct goalscoring threat (Gadocha-Lato to Hamrin-Pratti) and a striker who could lead the line with his physical play, but also his capability to take part in the build up play with his passing (Van Persie to Sormani).

Defence - Stopper with a covering defender. With the ball, Tresor will look to play it out from the back, or use Tassotti/Bossis to bring it forward when available. Vidic comes in for Adams in a like-for-like swap.

Midfield - Jansen and Clodoaldo will look to win the ball back quickly, doing their usual defensive job in front of the defense. When they have the ball, they will look to quickly play it into Rivera who will dictate the play and use the space available created by the movement around him. Clodoaldo will tend to hold his position a little more, Jansen will look to drift when in possession to open space and offer another outlet for Rivera.

Attack - Gadocha will look to offer more of a genuine wide threat, stretching play, and looking to deliver balls into the box. Lato offers the more direct threat, cutting in and making runs in behind for Rivera to pick out. Van Persie will look to get involved in the build up, linking up with Rivera, but offering another runner in behind, playing off the shoulder of the defender at times and using his movement to find space for the vision of Rivera to pick out.

Rivera is obviously the player intended to build around, and we've set him up here in a very similar style which led to him winning the Balon D'or. Everyone around him is tasked with freeing him up, and offering him the best possibly platform to shine and thrive, pulling the strings as he did at his very best.

KEY POINT: As i made mention of in the first round..all key players around Rivera thrived in a set up where they played with a similar central figure. Lato and Gadocha with Deyna, Jansen with Cruyff, Clodoaldo with Pele, Bossis/Tresor with Platini, and to lesser extent, RVP with Sneijder. All of them were part of very successful teams and part of a bigger unit which was led by a top-tier central playmaker/figure.

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Team Tuppet


Philosophy/Ideology of Tactical set-up:
Our set up is inspired from LVG's Champions league winning Ajax, in which Litmanen reached his peak. It could be seen as a 3-4-3 though its more fluid and could take different shapes in different phases of game. Despite of its attacking appearance it is a quite pragmatic tactic where possession is used as both a mean of defending and attacking.

Defensive line - High

Playing style - Possession and ball circulation is a very high priority. Still its different than barca tiki-taka style in that our team is more willing to play long passes up the wings or across the field.

Closing down - More closing down from the front, when losing the ball we'll try to get it back as soon as possible.

Central Player: JARI LITMANEN
He was a special breed of playmaker, a player born out of Johan Cruyff’s counter-intuitive liberal theories. He was not the artist playmaker – Jari was the antithesis of modern art – but he was functional and brilliant. He was an everyman.

Litmanen is at best as a creative second striker / Attacking midfielder and flourish with both playmaking and goal scoring responsibilities. By 1995 Litmanen was the best attacking midfielder in the world. There is an anonymity to his brilliance: He seldom dribbles or flies in with a tackle or fires home from 30 yards. Typically he sends a precise ball to wings and then surges stiffly into the box to finish off. Passing and scoring, passing & scoring. That was also his gripe with classic playmaking number 10s.

He said - "Zidane is fantastic on the ball, he also defends well, but he scores too little. Veron passes with feeling, is an outstanding playmaker, scores too little."

Jari Litmanen is the beating heart of this team, playing one - twos and creating triangles with Littbarski / Ribery / Voller / Schweini / Lerby. We have made sure to surround him with highly technical players who can match his speed of thought, yet would not try to take the limelight for themselves. Jari is not playing a classic number 10 role here, he would often find himself as the furtherest man on the field putting his great shooting technique to good use. He is given complete freedom to run the show here.

Striker - Complete striker/Targetman - Voller
Voller is one of the top strikers in the pool anyway but its his all rounded-ness that makes him a perfect fit for our squad. Voller was good in air, had great pace, a ruthless finisher, can hold the ball, work well with another striker (e.g. his Klinsmann partnership), a decent dribbler who can participate in moves outside the box and is creative enough to fashion his own chances. His partnership with Jari has the same feel as Jari/Kanu/Kluivert partnership. Like Kluivert/Kanu, Voller is fast, skillful, has a powerful shot, is an instinctive finisher and can drop a bit deep or float to wings to provide overload.

Wingers - Ribery / Littbarski
Littbarski is the new acquisition for our team. He comes in as a skillful, hardworking and versatile attacking player. All 3 of these qualities were hallmarks of that Ajax side. He can provide width on the right side but could also cut in and use his tremendous dribbling & pace to get passed his defender score goals.

Ribery is one of the best pure wingers in the pool and at his peak was best player in the world. His pace, dribbling, vision & passing are fantastic and complement the tactic well. He is very good at holding possession and his classic wingplay would stretch the opposition defense from left side providing space for Jari & Voller.

Together I think the trio of Ribery-Litmanen-Littbarski complements each other well and would play some brilliant football together.

Midfield duo - Schweinsteiger / Lerby
For the two b2b roles we need midfielders who are both technically proficient and physically dominating, with good defensive nous and great engine. Both also needs to be good passers and someone who can both win and then hold the possession. Schweini - Lerby partnership represents a terrifying cocktail of an impressive psyche, footballing ability and a will to win bordering on the brink of insanity. Lerby would be more midfield enforcer and Schweini slightly more attacking although both are afforded considerable freedom due to the presence of a DM behind them.

Defensive Midfielder/ Deep lying playmaker / Extra CB - Valary Voronin
With only three defenders behind, our defensive midfielder is going to need to be someone as comfortable working in the backline as he is just in front of it. Voronin is perfect for this role, he is technically proficient yet defensively impeccable and is capable of slotting in the defense making it a back 4.

Defense - Abidal / Hansen / Sagnol
Abidal & Sagnol makes perfect side backs, being very good defenders who are comfortable in wide areas and can track the wingers when needed. They are both fast & strong and crucially very good with ball at their feet and can play the possession game.

Hansen is also pretty much perfect fit for the central sweeper role. He has commanded a stingy Liverpool defense which was key for them winning all those trophies. He got all the right tools to excel in this role, great anticipation, decent speed, very good with ball at feet and brilliant in commanding a high line.

Finally Walter Zenga is an awesome shot stopper. An old fashioned defense first goalkeeper he was brilliant in Italy winning all sort of awards like IFFHS goalkeeper of the year 3 times and Serie A footballer of the year.

Overall I think we replicate the tactic where Litmanen showed his peak pretty faithfully and surround him with great supporting cast, which can play the game at his frequency and in accordance with the tactic. While we want to get the best out of him and have set the team accordingly, its also important to note that he is the tactical center piece who is crucial to get the best out of the squad as well. He has a lot of responsibility in the squad as primary playmaker and one of most important goal threat. His finishing, passing and creativity all would be needed for this team to shine and thats the kind of responsibility I believe Jari Litmanen would thrive on.
 
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  • Draft matches would be decided based on who has crafted/built the more coherent and cohesive tactical set-up around his main star as opposed to who might win in a fantasy encounter. Hopefully, this paves way for interesting discussions on the set-ups themselves - delving deeper into the creation/evolution etc of said set-up - and the personnel fit.
  • Voters are asked to consider the XIs featured as 2 separate teams not like a classic game of football, and to consider to what extent the manager has succeeded in building around his central figure. This is not a fantasy match but a comparison of 2 tactical attempts.
  • Teams will be built and judged for best tactical fits rather then the quality of the team. First, team has to be perfectly built around the central figure, if both teams are very close then you look at the other specific pairings, good fits for the team etc. if the level is still close then you watch at quality of the individual players except of the central player.

good luck @Skizzo @Tuppet
 
Like Tuppet's team even more compared to last round. Skizzo's also managed to fine tune his in an appealing way.

Not much to separate the sides, very good effort from both.
 
Like Tuppet's team even more compared to last round. Skizzo's also managed to fine tune his in an appealing way.

Not much to separate the sides, very good effort from both.

Aye, Tuppet's formation is particularly easy on the eye in this round, and Skizzo has polished a fine set up even more. Hopefully both managers have time to get online and contribute.
 
I am online, not much to contribute here though. I like Skizzo's team, its a good setup for any classic number 10 and should work well for Rivera. I am digging my setup obviously, its not an easy choice for voters here. All of my players are well known, so that's that. If anyone has any questions regarding how things work in my tactic, or would like to know more about any of my player, please let me know.

Here are two classic goals which shows how my team would work in attacking -
The first goal is the one which won them the CL (Sorry for the quality but I couldn't find the goal with build with a quick search in good quality) -
Notice the ball circulation and the crossfield pass leading up to the goal. And then Rijkaard providing a final pass, with Kluivert almost forcing himself on defenders to score an instinctive scrappy finish. Which is why I needed someone like Voronin in the team, who while provinding defensive solidity can also maintain possession and pick through balls because he just might have to. I had selected Masch for this role before and while he is a better playmaker than he gets credit for, he still felt lacking to me. So once I got a chance of Voronin, the tactic got decided for me.



For this goal again check out intense ball circulation and trying to maintain possession. But despite of the misleading title its hardly a barca style tiki-taka goal. Yeah there are a good number of passes but the tempo is something else. And Davids releasing freaking Danny Blind to put on one on one. It also show the importance of having highly technical footballer all over the pitch, its a fluid system and there is a chance any one could be needed to score or assist.



Ajax 95 from the games I've seen were a middle ground between the Total Football Ajax and Pep's Barcelona squad — not hell-bent on moving forward, as the older Ajax was, but more willing to play long passes up the wings or across the field than Barcelona was. The defining trait of van Gaal’s Ajax — like the position-switching of Total Football and the aggressive man-marking with a sweeper of catenaccio — is an obsession with ball circulation, moving the ball around, and not losing it, until it found the person who could do the most with it. And this is partially the reason Jari was so successful there and couldn't replicate it elsewhere. A thinking man's striker he was what chester would describe as "Lord of triangles" but more than his passing its his position switching, free roaming style which would take him almost anywhere on the field (almost Cruyff-esque) only to pop up in the opposition penalty are to score is what caught my eye.

Finally here's a compilation of his best goals, but to me that was not Jari's point, and this is where he differs (falls short) from some of the greats. The reason you get impressed with Jari is his routine goals, the one's that don't make the highlight reel and with the sheer consistency he did that for that Ajax team.

 
Im leaning towards tuppet, think both did a fantastic job from tactical angle so the decision is based on player quality, reckon tuppet has a slight advantage there. That midfield diamond is insanely good.
 
Is it me or does Sagnol look a little out of place at RCB? Also I'm not sure why Sizz has a more offensive full-back behind his genuine winger but has a more defensive one behind the inside-forward. The latter can work, I can't remember who played left back for Brazil in 1970 but he didn't overlap Rivelino much, but it doesn't seem optimal in provide Rivera passing options out wide right.
 
Is it me or does Sagnol look a little out of place at RCB? Also I'm not sure why Sizz has a more offensive full-back behind his genuine winger but has a more defensive one behind the inside-forward. The latter can work, I can't remember who played left back for Brazil in 1970 but he didn't overlap Rivelino much, but it doesn't seem optimal in provide Rivera passing options out wide right.

Tassotti wasn't a defensive fullback, despite being a part of that Milan defense. He'd often get forward and provide attakcing options and provide a ball of his own.

Also, with clodoaldo as the more defensive minded of my two, Jansen has more of the freedom to provide that option and movement in the channel for Rivera
 
Tassotti wasn't a defensive fullback, despite being a part of that Milan defense. He'd often get forward and provide attakcing options and provide a ball of his own.

Also, with clodoaldo as the more defensive minded of my two, Jansen has more of the freedom to provide that option and movement in the channel for Rivera

Tassotti could get forward but that's hardly his forte. Jansen's movement on the otherhand makes more sense.
 
Tassotti could get forward but that's hardly his forte. Jansen's movement on the otherhand makes more sense.

No he's not the marauding type, I agree, but he has output there. The idea is that between him and Jansen there would be enough movement beyond Lato to help stretch the play where necessary
 
If they are playing like LVG Ajax then he should be fine there as they had Reiziger in that spot.

Fair enough. If I'd seen a backwards arrow on Voronin I think I'd have realised more readily.

Edit- didn't Reiziger play CB probably at some points in his career?
 
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Is it me or does Sagnol look a little out of place at RCB? Also I'm not sure why Sizz has a more offensive full-back behind his genuine winger but has a more defensive one behind the inside-forward. The latter can work, I can't remember who played left back for Brazil in 1970 but he didn't overlap Rivelino much, but it doesn't seem optimal in provide Rivera passing options out wide right.
Tuppet is almost perfect but that's the one thing that stands out.
 
Well the idea was that Sagnol is not playing purely as an RCB, he is more or less a defensively solid RB here. Its a 3 man backline but both my fullbacks are still fullbacks, while they would no doubt come inside to help Hansen, they are not staying in that position. Think of it as tucked in full backs who have primary duty as defending and tracking their wingers. While defending Voronin would drop to the back line to make it a usual 4 defenders, also a lot of defending needs to be done by the midfield and high possession. Also Sagnol was a fine defender himself, could totally get the work done here.
 
Well the idea was that Sagnol is not playing purely as an RCB, he is more or less a defensively solid RB here. Its a 3 man backline but both my fullbacks are still fullbacks, while they would no doubt come inside to help Hansen, they are not staying in that position. Think of it as tucked in full backs who have primary duty as defending and tracking their wingers. While defending Voronin would drop to the back line to make it a usual 4 defenders, also a lot of defending needs to be done by the midfield and high possession. Also Sagnol was a fine defender himself, could totally get the work done here.
Aye, I'd buy that. Lerby and Schweini are pretty good in that roles so they can also protect the flank while Voronin dropping would still give you 4 man backline when defending and staying back when Sagnol goes forward.

A bit on LvG Ajax taken from here: https://timhi.wordpress.com/2010/09/14/ajax-1995/

Ajax lined-up with two lightening quick wingers in Overmars and Finidi George patrolling each flank with the intelligent and technically superb and mulleted Jari Litmanen behind the youthful Kluivert. Van Gaal packed the midfield with de Boer, Davids and Frank Rijkaard protecting the back-three of Reizeger, the de Boer of the Frank variety and Danny Blind.

I can see the similarities between de Boer and Davids in Lerby and Schweinsteiger, with Schweinsteiger more solid defensively than R. de Boer.

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Louis van Gaal’s Ajax side operated with Danny Blind as a sweeper. Pre-historic as it seems today, playing a sweeper helped negate Milan’s threat in the attacking third. With Gullit and Dejan Savićević being picked up by Reizeger and the stouter de Boer brother – this left Blind to pick up stray balls, runs from deep and anything Milan threw at him.

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Blind (white) always looked to drop deeper and pick up the loose ball if F. de Boer and Reizeger (yellow) failed to deal with the first ball

Ajax were comfortable in having 3 defenders against 2 attackers, de Boer and Reizeger looked comfortable picking up a forward each and if they failed to control the Rossoneri forward line, Blind was the contingency plan. From the off, Capello realised that he needed to get his wide players into the game to breach the narrow Ajax defence. With an obvious ploy to breach the Ajax defence, it was up to van Gaal to react to this. Ajax responded by getting Davids and R. De Boer to track the wingers back, and did so wonderfully. When they did this, Jari Litmanen dropped deeper to fill in the central midfield so the deeper lying Frank Rijkaard was not outnumbered in the middle of the field.

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so all in all Reiziger played a bit like a CB in that game, even you might call him a stopper or a man marker. He didn't venture too much forward and was essentially a defensive minded RCB.

It's an interesting take from Tuppet and there are a lot of similarities, probably only Reiziger/Sagnol stands out, but then with Schweinsteiger on R. de Boer and licensing Sagnol to go forward when switching up the play makes sense.
 
Yeah most of that summary is how I envisage my defense to play. The reason I chose Sagnol over Perfumo (Who had actually played as an RB as a youngster) is because I want the defense to be able to track the wingers. Although it does not mean that I want Sagnol to attack or go forward on a regular basis or more than Abidal. Which is why I picked him in the first place, he was very disciplined defensively.
 
I'd have preferred a more robust physical and defensive presence than Sagnol next to Hansen, and that's literally all I could find to seperate two excellent teams. I feel bad as Tuppet has executed a difficult formation very well.
 
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Tuppet's sub
Fair enough, I guess my explanation not working on this one. So time for a substitution. Roberto Perfumo comes in the place of Willy Sagnol. Perfumo played as a right back in the beginning of his career before moving to center and played many more times later there as well. He would bring more solid center back credibilty and marking ability to help out Hansen. While his speed and experience playing as an RB means he can go wide when needed to track the wingers.

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I am not sure how subs are supposed to work here, as we are not really playing against each other but whatever.
@Šjor Bepo
 
Skizzo's team is probably my favorite this draft. @Skizzo mate if you change any of that front four I won't vote for you (maybe RVP if you really want to but I'd rather not).

@Tuppet was Littbarski left or right footed (was so good with both I can't remember)? Will he and Ribéry both look to cut inside primarily?
 
Skizzo's team is probably my favorite this draft. @Skizzo mate if you change any of that front four I won't vote for you (maybe RVP if you really want to but I'd rather not).

:lol: cheers mate. I'm really happy with the balance of the front 4, so I doubt any of them would change, RVP being the only one I'd dare, and I'd have to really dig into finding someone available who would do the same job but better.
 
What a gross match up. Absolutely love Litmanen and in his peak he was something else. Same goes for Rivera on the other hand and both teams are just spot on bar that Sagnol mess up. Have to give a slight edge to Skizzo for that even if I would haven't voted if Perfumo started over Sagnol.
 
Skizzo's team is probably my favorite this draft. @Skizzo mate if you change any of that front four I won't vote for you (maybe RVP if you really want to but I'd rather not).

@Tuppet was Littbarski left or right footed (was so good with both I can't remember)? Will he and Ribéry both look to cut inside primarily?

Right footed
 
@Enigma_87

That link is a good read. The wide midfielders seem to play a bit like Lahm and Alaba did with Pep's Bayern.
 
@Enigma_87

That link is a good read. The wide midfielders seem to play a bit like Lahm and Alaba did with Pep's Bayern.
yeah, think Tuppet also made a very good remake of it.

Reiziger in particular is very good defender and deserves to feature in a draft as well so that he can get a bit of info on him as well. Cruyff rated him a lot as well.
 
A real beauty from @Tuppet. I don't even think Sagnol was a bad call if meant to play like Ferrer, for instance.

I chickened out from voting as I was a big fan of Skizzo's side but I didn't have the time to explore my biggest question mark further: why Clodoaldo? I know Albelda isn't the shiniest, and Clodoaldo is a better player, but from a fit-for-purpose perspective Albelda made a lot more sense to me.
 
yeah, think Tuppet also made a very good remake of it.

Reiziger in particular is very good defender and deserves to feature in a draft as well so that he can get a bit of info on him as well. Cruyff rated him a lot as well.
In fairness, Cruyff rating him doesn't mean he is a good defender. It's akin to rating Marcelo who is a fantastic fullback but prone to get found wanting every now and then as a defender.
 
In fairness, Cruyff rating him doesn't mean he is a good defender. It's akin to rating Marcelo who is a fantastic fullback but prone to get found wanting every now and then as a defender.
yeah, but still thought he was class at Ajax and then winning back to back titles at Barca.
 
A real shame that @Tuppet lost here. Brilliant attempt.

Skizzo's team is fantastic, although it really peaked early - and is becoming quite boring (it's absolutely not his fault)