one for Mockers...
Best football related song ever.
Best football related song ever.
Should Rooney retire from England?
- Thread starter Dr. Dwayne
- Start date
I doubt Fergie or Rooney are that bothered by it really - the touchline ban seems to have helped foster team spirit at an important time and the worst fate Rooney will suffer is probably a one game ban while all this has done a fair bit to rehabilitate him in United fan's eyes in no time at all really. I certainly couldn't have guessed there'd be this much sympathy for him for anything on here a few weeks ago. I reckon they've come out of it pretty well - SAF's probably looking for an excuse to give Berbatov and Hernandez a game.
All very good points, tend to agree here.
In regards to Fulham and possibly City, Berbatov will probably start consecutive domestic games for us.
I guess my point is not about whether or not the punishments are harsh - more that you don't get in trouble if you don't do anything wrong. Both of them should have been smarter than they were, especially at such an important part of the season.
Eh? I never said anyone had forced me to cheer for John Terry, just that cheering for England requires cheering for the likes of John Terry, which isn't always an easy thing to do.
Why do you keep replying to my posts with weird one line points that don't seem to refer to anything I've actually said? It's confusing.
They don't have to "cope" with what the media has to say, they're only answerable to their own legislation, which is made up by themselves and by Fifa. They simply exist to oversee the integrity and welbeing of the game. If they were doing their jobs properly the media would be irrelevant.
And the funny thing is. I've read and heard far more media reports disagreeing with the Rooney decision than agreeing with it, so the media agenda line doesn't wash anyway. It's something the FA have taken upon themselves to do. Presumably because they're run by the types of cretins who would find time to write a complaint letter to the FA about Rooney swearing, if they didn't already work there.
I've even looked back at the Ferguson ban, and looked for this supposed media witch hunt or outcry to get him banned, and it doesn't exist. I couldn't find a single article or report calling for such a thing. What actually happened was, Ferguson made a remark about the referee, which the media reported (which is what they're supposed to do), and then the FA immediately took it upon themselves to re-invent the meaning of the word "fair" so they could charge Ferguson, at which point the media reported that too. There was absolutely no agenda from anyone except the FA.
Whatever you think of the media, it's the FA who are a complete shambles and if they weren't, nothing the media said or tried to do would matter anyway. People should be going after the cause of the problem rather than bitching about things that merely help facilitate it, and they should be starting with the real issues, like the FA's spiteful ruining of the country's grass routes system, rather than focusing on the petty disciplinary incidents, which are largely unimportant even if they are inconsistent and agenda driven.
I've not read this thread... but is most of it comprised by someone saying something disparaging about the England team. Mockney comes in to defend the national side and then rather predictably gets called obsessed or that he is having a breakdown ?
Didn't know I had a habit of one line answers, just wanted to make the point that no one's forced to cheer anyone. It's just not an issue for me... Certainly not a reason to not support the team.
It's hard to support a team without supporting the players who play for it, since that's essentially all the team actually is.
What I meant was, if I cheer for England, I have to force myself to cheer for John Terry, which is actually incredibly difficult. The England team is almost like a roll call of detestable cockends these days. Luckily a few of them are starting to get old, or in Joe Cole's case, have somehow become too rubbish to play for England.
What I meant was, if I cheer for England, I have to force myself to cheer for John Terry, which is actually incredibly difficult. The England team is almost like a roll call of detestable cockends these days. Luckily a few of them are starting to get old, or in Joe Cole's case, have somehow become too rubbish to play for England.
Don't support them then, it's fine with me.
Instead of not playing for England, perhaps Wayne could grow up, show some class, act responsibly and stop his chavvy, scummy, selfish behaviour.
This applies to anybody who gets paid to play footie.
This applies to anybody who gets paid to play footie.
What's Joe Cole done to upset you?
I hear what you're trying to say but once these incidents become big talking points then you can be sure the FA will come down hard on the offender. Look at the offences that have really made the headlines, they aren't necessarily the worst offences but the punishment does seem to increase proportionally to the amount of coverage that is given to the incident in question.
I don't really know where you get the idea that there was no media outcry against Fergie. It was on Sky Sports for a week.....every 15 mins they repeated the same thing and then interspersed that by interviewing everyone they could think of about it. Did you miss all that? It kept the back page of the papers occupied for a week too, did you miss that? Then there were the radio talk shows, you missed those as well I take it.
If you still don't believe me then just read the posts on here, a fair percentage of pro-United posters thought he deserved to be banned so can you imagine how the ABU media population and fans felt about it.
We all know the FA are a shambles. That's why they have such a flexible policy where punishment is concerned. If it suits the mood and their agenda some players escape punishment (severe or otherwise) and others don't. If the FA encounter a potential obstacle to punishment they "amend" the interpretation of their rules.
Whatever else you may think about their mismanagement in other areas though these petty punishments you refer to shouldn't be ignored. There's nothing petty about unfairness, nor is there anything petty in losing one of your main players for 2 matches in the run-up to the PL title. Shouldn't imagine Fergie or Rooney consider what has happened to them petty either.
(If there's something else I haven't covered here it's because I'm too tired).
Mainly his stint at Chelsea during which he constantly cheated and made a scene of himself more than any other player in the league, despite being in the same team as the likes of Deco and Didier Drogba.
You should watch the 2008 CL final back. I don't think I've ever seen a player act like such a dislikable twat during a football match.
Again, it's hard to stomach, just like it was when the likes of Ronaldo would pull similar nonsense in a United shirt.
Just doesn't make him a 'detestable cockend' for me. I'm rubbish with dates but I remember a good period for him where for a couple of seasons he seemed to have the best attitude of any England player, made the left wing his own and clearly tried harder for the cause than any of the others.
I dunno, I just don't hate players - I'd far rather take things easier and enjoy games than go in for all of this. Just going on some of the fairly extreme language you've used in this thread alone - it all seems blown out of proportion and massively and overwhelmingly negative about everything. You could turn that level of invective on anything and anyone and tear them apart by doing so.
No of course not
Don't agree.
There's two things we've discussed in this thread, the FA, who I happen to think are a sambles and the single biggest problem with football in this country, by a very long distance, and the England football team.
Everyone's views will differ on the later, but the fact is a sizable proportion of English football fans, don't really give a feck about supporting England, or even in extremes will anti-support them. There's obviously something in that, or some number of reasons behind it. I may be wrong but even as recently as 10 years ago I don't remember it being the case...not to nearly the level it is now anyway.
No reason? I know he's your player so you will be biased - but if you seriously think you can swear into a camera like that and get away with it then you're truly deluded.
More like the camera was shoved into his face as he was swearing. You seriously telling me other players stand, applaud and say something like "Jolly good show, well done"!!
Its like other incidents, highlighted because its Rooney, yet other players do the same thing and its ignored.
It should be punish all not the one the media has a gripe for.
Yes!!
No I'm not 'seriously' telling you that - not quite sure how you can fathom that from my post.
Whether the camera was shoved in his face - or whether he ran over to the camera - does not mean then you can shout down it like he did - he looked just like a thug. What was it Macheda reportedly said of Rooney in Italy? That he's a chav? Exactly.
Top clubs always think you're singled out - maybe if your players had a bit of dignity and didn't act like pr**ks then you wouldn't be?
Did you?....That's the question. If your view of the team didn't diminish with the Glazer ownership/FC events, then it's unfair (or inconsistent) to claim the FA is a valid reason to not give two shits about the England team. We're not dragging up the whole Traitors vs Sheep argument all over again, we're just trying to look at it from a personal POV. Those who did start to float away from United in 2005, would be being consistent if they also did the same with England.
And yet very few on this board at least, yourself included, has decided they like United the football team any less. And those that have also get stick for it. That's not the point. If YOU haven't, then you can't say "Well my views might not be consistent, but look, they are if I use someoneelses views in place of mine for this one...
And I'm pretty sure I can pick out inconsistencies or irrationalities in every one...Not that that would make you support England, you obviously don't, fair enough, but if you're going to make a stand and criticise people for using the media as a shield for their dislike of government/the FA, it's unfair to then use it yourself as a reason to dislike the England team. You're being hypocritical...Just as I felt you were when you lambasted some England fans for being fickle, and decided that was a good excuse to stop supporting the football team yourself.
Again, if you don't like England anymore, fair play, I can't forcibly change your mind...I'm also not trying to. I'm just trying to point out how "unfair" it is to use certain things as excuses or reasons why. Especially if it would preclude you from also supporting United if they were really issues that bugged you so much, and especially if it's the fans you're having a go at. Obviously. As we've been through....Again, not trying to change your mind, I won't, but arguing the validity of what I perceive to be your excuses.
As per the convo we had during the WC, can you not see how hugely prejudicial and small focused this is?...Some spackers down the pub = England's support. I can't tell you the amount of spackers I've sat behind at United games, most notably in the two Liverpool games this season, where Heysel chanting and nasty comments were apparently fair game in parts of K Stand. Plus United have one of the highest arrest records in the League. Every team has Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime, and England have not only the largest support in the country (being a cross section of all fans support) and one of the largest in the world with the amount we bring to tournaments. The last of which was entirely peaceful and good spirited. So you can clearly see why some of us (and me) find you using some blokes down your pub as a scapegoat for "your average England fan" a rather damp squib of an argument, and rather unfair. Also, I'm sure if you asked these spackers, a couple of them would probably be United fans.
I can see why some spackers down the pub would affect you personally, and why you'd want some schadenfreude, but if you think about it objectively, I'm sure even you can see you're not being fair on "England fans."...Let alone the England team.
Yet that was one of your main reasons during the last post. Again, I'm really not trying to brow beat you here noods, but when you do list your individual reasons, even you must admit they hold little water in actuality. You've got a dislike of the England team which I think stems mostly from the players, and you wheel out the usual tropes as further excuses which actually when you think about it, aren't the real reasons, and when they are, would prohibit you from supporting any team if you actually held yourself to them...
To be fair, I don't think you've ever said anything like that anyway, so I certainly don't put you in that catagory.
True. And although I'd much rather people didn't boo their own players (like Giggs or Berbatov for example) it's always another rather irksome annoyance when people then claim England fans are twats for booing players like Terry, when those very people themselves then claim they hate John Terry and would find it really hard to cheer for them. It's lose lose for England fans. Support him and "I don't identify with you", boo him and "You shouldn't boo your own players, what twats, I don't identify with you"....Come on!! Give us some leeway here?
Again, I agree completely. As do many in the media. There was a whole programme damning the FA called "Can England Win the nest World Cup" just after South Africa, which said all of this and basically ended with the obvious assessment of "hell no."....Another reason why much of the "God I can't stand the media hype when England play" is such rubbish. The media have been hugely pessimistic about England for ages. And yet still some people trot out the old "I can't stand the media hype" despite their being little other than some rabble rousing "come on lads, you can do it" before games (and what exactly is so bad about that for the national team?)...But when you then point that out, the answer is "Yeah well the fecking media bile and knocking down mentality is just as sickening!"...Again, where's the fecking middle ground here? It's lose lose. Some people are just desperate to use anything.
It was hard to support Rooney after City-Gate, but somehow people managed to do it. The trope most often trotted out (and quite rightly) by those like Pogue who seemed to shift his attitude quite quickly, was that when he plays we should forget what he's done and support the shirt, regardless of whether we like him or not. And yet whenever anyone says that about England, the anti-lot just say that's impossible. OK, Cool, but then you can't really claim it's a consistent reason. Again, it's one rule for one, and one for another.
It's seems to be more "I don't like England, so I won't cheer the players" and less "I don't like the players, so I won't cheer England."...In fact I think that actually covers all the main arguments (fans, media, FA, booing etc) because as I've said, it would preclude anyone from supporting anyone if they actually held themselves to it or felt it as passionately as they claim to.
Well, not these days it isn't. Our starting line ups post WC have actually been quite likeable. Unless you've got a seething hatred for Joe Hart, Leigton Baines, Gary Cahill, Glenn Johnson, Jack Wilshere, Scott Parker, Darren Bent, Ashley Young, James Milner, Adam Johnson, Andy Carroll, or Jermain Defoe?....Even during the WC many of our players were fine (if a little rubbish) and it was only in actuality the Terry, Rooney, Cole triumverate that were genuinely thought to be massive cnuts by all and sundry (and Rooney has never been booed by an England crowd, despite most neutral fans actually disliking him)...Even the mainstays of Lampard & Gerrard, I've never got the hate for. They both actually seem alright (Lampard more than Gerrard) but suffer mostly from rival syndrome.
Don't get the Joe Cole hate, but each to their own. Again, it looks more like you're picking reasons than you actually have reasons.
As with Pogue in another thread. I think you're confusing "people on the Caf" for "people in the real world"...There is definitely a proportion, but how sizeable they are is rather contentious. They're certainly less sizeable than on the Caf. And even on the Caf I reckon if you did a survey of all the English fans, more would be pro (if only slightly) than would be specifically anti.
Which is basically what your argument boils down to when picked apart. It's slightly unfair, or at the least insular and disproportionately personal to blame the fans, inconsistent to blame the the media or the FA and even rather churlish to blame the players (which is the only one of those reasons I would personally find a fair one, but which doesn't hold nearly as much credos now as it did even 6 months ago)...So shorn of these it comes dow to "well there must be something in it, or some reasons behind it, cos other people do to"....OK cool. Each to their own. If you don't feel it don't feel it. If you don't, no one can force you to, you either do or don't. But also try not to use the obvious examples as legitimate reasons behind it, when they actually hold little water in an argument about how and why you should support a football team. Or at least, accept that.
And yet we still bring more fans than any other nation to International Tournaments. And now we do it without the troublemakers too....I think you probably are right, but then I also think people just genuinely like footballers much less than they used to. Again, don't confuse the Caf with everyday football fandom....If anything a sizeable proportion have never experienced what it's actually like to be your average football fan (myself probably included) which usually includes losing a lot, not winning anything, and having to deal with cnutish players/chairman/managers on a weekly basis. We are incredibly spoiled as a fandom, and it's also not entirely coincidental that the two teams with the largest anti-England sections are Manchester United & Liverpool, two teams from parochially proud and individualistic cities, with more domestic team success than any other.
Kinell Mockers...you have a dissertation on the subject 
I haven't stopped supporting United, obviously, but I do care less now than before the Glazer fiasco, and go to less games. I honestly couldn't say whether that's directly because of the Glazers, but then it's a degree of guess work when it comes to why I don't really give a tosh about England too.
In general I think the reaction (much of it ongoing) of fans to the Glazer ownership, is if anything proof that management/ownership of a team is often a very real reason why people might decide to support it less, or not at all.
I don't think these two things are the same or comparable issues.
There are many reasons that could preclude or cause someone not to support a football team...players, ownership, history, behaviour, religion, politics, location, etc.
Some are obviously more valid than others (though all are subjective and on some level irrational). Though none in anyway relate to who should be criticised when the FA decide to cock something up. The FA should obviously be the ones criticised for their own actions. That much seems obvious as day to me.
I don't think it's hypocritical to view these two things differently. Or rather if it is, you could probably argue everything anyone ever says is hypocritical on some level. But that would be tedious, time consuming...and hypocritical.
I can only judge on what I see and encounter, and incidents like this, or the time I went to see England play Portugal, and witnessed several Portuguese families being physically and verbally abused by about 500 England fans, aren't the types of things I've ever encountered with United fans, or any other club's fans for that matter.
Obviously you can legitimately claim that many England fans are nothing like this, and that I'm being hugely unfair on those who aren't. You wouldn't be wrong, but the ones who are like this have left an impression. In the same way that if you asked many match going United fans what they thought of Liverpool's fans, they probably wouldn't be too complimentary, and vice versa...a minority of people acting like bellends is enough to leave a lasting negative impression.
I don't think it's any one particular reason, that's the point, and it's not like I conciously woke up one day and decided "actually, I'm not going to support England anymore" and then forced myself not to cheer for them. I doubt anyone's done that. I just gradually stopped caring.
Support in the football team sense is more an emotional response rather than a conciously made decision, so it's actually a bit pointless to debate the reasons and logic behind it. It's just educated guess work.
To be fair, I think if you do support a team, booing them is a bit silly. Plus the last individual England player I can remember being booed was Frank Lampard, who's on and off field conduct is by in large sound. He seemed to be booed on the basis that fans thought he wasn't playing well enough. Same reason as with Giggs and Berbatov. I don't agree with that.
Why do you want people who don't support England to identify with your support of them? Surely what they think doesn't matter in terms of your support.
I don't for example expect you to care or identify with any of the possible reasons why I or others don't support them. It's not a moral debate.
No
There's a sensible and looney pandering side to the media, and the looney pandering side really does go into overdrive whenever national pride is on the line.
The England football team is far from the only victim in this, but this is what I refer to when I say I usually end up feeling sorry for the players. The pressure and criticism which ends up directed their way is completely ridiculous.
Some unfortunate official or opposing player usually ends up copping it in the neck too. It's sort of like coming on here after United lose an important game. Except you can't just log off because it's fecking everywhere.
I'm torn on the Rooney issue to be fair. I support him when he's wearing the shirt but still think on principle that he shouldn't be playing for the club anymore...even if his agent was at the heart of the goings on more than he was. It's certainly ruined a big part of the romance in seeing him charge around the pitch like a maniac in aid of the cause.
I'm not really sure what you're getting at with the rest of this point. I would probably still cheer for United if John Terry played for us, if that's what you mean, but I wouldn't necessarily be happy that he played for us, or cheer him on as an individual. This is why it's hard to pin down any individual factor.
Again, football support is an emotional response/connection. If you have it at one point and then don't at another, and haven't made that decision conciously (as I suspect is the case with most who no longer support England, you can only really speculate as to why.
Yeah again, this is kind of covered by the above. Rival syndrome is very definitely a factor...even among a lot of people who do support England I would think.
I actually don't mind Lampard, apart from not thinking he's very good in a two man midfield. Gerrard is a cheating cnut who also has a track record of trying to injure people with tackles.
The Joe Cole dislike stems mainly from his constant unbelievable cheating. It's irritating and distasteful enough when the likes of Nani do it.
I dunno. Not a lot of my non United supporting mates are particularly fecked about England. A few I've known since college or even school and used to go to England games with.
Bizarrely, I also have one mate who goes to all England's home games, but doesn't seem to do anything other than slag them off. He went to the game after the World Cup with the specific intention of booing people...I don't understand what that's about. Just seems like an imaginative way to waste your own time and money. He is a West Ham fan though, and I often don't get what they're about.
Again, I think a lot of this is debating or trying to rationalise/irrationalise stuff which by it's nature isn't going to be logical, and you're right that footballers are disliked in general more now rather than regarded as heroes.
International football as a whole also seems to be more and more in conflict with club football, and is also taking more and more of a back seat to club competition. That's a big factor in itself which we haven't even mentioned.
That was also, pathetically, the longest post I've either made or replied to on here.
England will never again win the world Cup anyway, nor the Euros.
so why waste time with an ungrateful FA.
give 100% to United and go on to become a legend with us. Afterall United are far greater than England.
so why waste time with an ungrateful FA.
give 100% to United and go on to become a legend with us. Afterall United are far greater than England.
From my experience, they seem to believe that they're some sort of extension of the English national team.
...which is fecking weird, really.
Do some work. saddo
Make me
Banning Mockney is totally Bangerang
I think it's more to do with them being really shit. After France 98 it's been pretty much dire stuff to watch.
Rooney should have declared for Ireland when he had the chance... Irish fans would treat him far better than that mob-scum lot of English fans!
That shower of FA cnuts are incapable of making decisions, are politically motivated & have individual agenda's that particulary seem to be conflicting with impartiality!
I think United fans - home & away, should use the rest of the season to poke jibes & protests at the FA, and use the Champions League to get the message across!
That shower of FA cnuts are incapable of making decisions, are politically motivated & have individual agenda's that particulary seem to be conflicting with impartiality!
I think United fans - home & away, should use the rest of the season to poke jibes & protests at the FA, and use the Champions League to get the message across!