Shola Shoretire | signed for PAOK

Status
Not open for further replies.
KevinJoh said:
It is ridiculous how people on boards like this are certain in their opinion on boys that are still developing, better than coaches, managers, doctors. Just by watching a few games, even not watching trainings to see what those kids are doing and what to look for in a game. It would be nice to know if they have ever worked with youngsters on the training ground, developing them, getting the best out of them long term.

Shola (and all other kids in our Academy) would not be there if they are not talented and hard working. You are not getting to play for United at that level, or even smaller club if you are not. In games we can see only obvious things, but we can't know what is behind scenes. You don't know if coaches are developing some side of the players game and want to see improvement in that, not trying to get goals and assists. At young age, that improvement often comes at once, after looking at someone thinking he is going nowhere with this, and than suddenly after month or two you see he is there. Also, coaches are trying to develop them for first team, for different situations, often playing them out of main position in order to learn the way of thinking that their teammates will have. And of course, sometimes it is just not a day for them, maybe they had a bad day with girlfriend, or at school, or did not feel right. At the end, it is ridiculous even at top level that football 'experts' are judging players by the stats. How many goals did you score or assist? Ffs they would probably sell Scholes or Carrick as they did not score or assisted as much as some other lads.

Shoretire is looking very good on the field against often 5 years older. He is brave enough to play against them without fear. It is more than enough and it will just get better. He will have bad patches for sure, but if he continues to work hard on the training ground every day, I am sure he will get there and will take opportunity. And he will need some luck as all others, with injuries, with results of the first team, but there is enough material for him, for Mejbri, for some other lads as well that I am sure at least one of them will be Man Utd first team player in no time.
Click to expand...

Well put.
 
Which are the posts attacking Shoretire that have got everyone so angry in this thread?
 
Mickson said:
I don't really know what people are arguing about, it seems to be like a classic political discussion when everyone really argues about something that almost everyone agrees on. Like now with Shoretire. I think it was 'bigsid' who said something about agent power regarding Shoretire's playing time, other than that everyone has had fair comments about him. From September to the 30th of January, Shola had two goals and two assists in 14 U23 games (and five yellow cards and one red card). That's hardly brilliant stats by an attacker in a U23 team. No one questioned his ability, no one questioned that he is a very good footballer who is playing well above his age group. What people questioned was that he got that much playing time (almost 90 min in every game), when he was pretty anonymous in some games. The questions were whether it was a good idea that he played a few U18 games because he's still very young and U23 is a physical league, it's no shame in that, he's young even in a U18 context! If we can't question that, what's the point with the forum? And it's very easy to never stand for anything, to never have an opinion, and then come in and scream that everyone is an idiot when things are going well. Does it have to be black and white every time? He has, like everyone else, bad games and good games. Sometimes after games, it's easy to go too far in either direction, unfortunately. He has been better in the last month than he was in the beginning, it's a fact. And he has always been one of the biggest talents in the academy. And now when he is playing brilliantly, we should enjoy it rather than throwing stones at each other.

One thing I noticed against Arsenal was that he was the main guy in our attack. When Diallo played, and when Elangas has played earlier, they have been the 'go-to-guys', but now Shoretire was that and that shows how he has grown with responsibility, and that is seriously impressive considering his age. What I'm most impressed by is his decision making, you seldom see that maturity from such a young player in that position. I have always thought that he can improve his goals and assists, and in the last month he has certainly done that. With him, Hugill, McNeill, Amad, Elanga amongst others, we have a lot of potential and quality for the future.
Click to expand...
well said
 
SmashedHombre said:
Which are the posts attacking Shoretire that have got everyone so angry in this thread?
Click to expand...
3 or 4 times I've seen this argument "ridiculous how people are ruling him out" yet I've never really seen anyone have a go at him. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, of course not, just that I've only ever seen people defending him from criticism I've yet to read.
 
chattichattichatta said:
I joined this forum to tell Bigsid, Mickson, Adnan, Beaucoup, etc to stop belittling Shola. You should all be ashamed of yourselves for deliberately slagging off some of our Great Academy boys and their hardworking coaches. We all need to support our boys for better/worse! And I do know that some of the boys read your comments.
Click to expand...

Good man.
 
Shola made the bench for the senior squad, so it was good experience for him, probably. Maybe he will have his debut in the home game against Sociedad, if it goes well
 
Mickson said:
Ole is very careful with playing young players, as we saw today. Hopefully, he's involved next week.
Click to expand...
If anything he would be really aggressive if he played Shoretire. I think shoretire still has a lot to learn in the u23s. I wouldn't think of playing him until next season unless he stars for the u23s to finish the season.
 
Feed Me said:
Spelled.
Click to expand...
Spelt.
The_Union_Jack_Flag_MOD_45153521.jpg
 
P-Nut said:
Always annoys me how the red diagonals on that flag aren't even
Click to expand...
‘Because of the relative positions of the saltires of St Patrick and St Andrew, the UK flag is not symmetrical. The red saltire of St Patrick is offset such that it does not relegate the white saltire of St Andrew to a mere border.

manuchamp88 said:
Fair point. Used to annoy me that Wales wasn't represented in it.
Click to expand...
‘Wales is not represented in the Union Flag by Wales's patron saint, Saint David, because the flag was designed while Wales was part of the Kingdom of England.’

From el wiki
 
Cast5 said:
Had the youngest squad in the league last season, stop talking rubbish.
Click to expand...

What in my post was wrong? And Mourinho was the best manager in the world in 2004. Solskjaer hasn't given a debut to any youth academy player this season and people still talking like he is some kind of youth coach.

macheda14 said:
The poster you’re responding to thinks Ole is terrible with youth. No need to engage.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I had a discussion with you, and when you realized that I was right, you strangely disappeared. I wonder why. Maybe you can tell me now, which youth player has Ole played this season? Or am I gonna give the example of players that Mourinho and Guardiola have used, MORE DEBUTS than the mighty youth manager Solskjaer? If you are going to talk of agenda, you should at least try to put a hole in my arguments, which you can't do because it's a fact. So please stop talking shit when it doesn't fit you. I don't have an agenda against anything. I call things as I see them. It gets me very pissed off when people say I have an agenda, lazy argument.
 
Mickson said:
MORE DEBUTS
Click to expand...

Being a good youth manager is not about giving most debuts. It is rather about matching young players correctly.

I think OGS has done very well with Greenwood overall. And at Molde he did very well with a lot of young players. Including Braut Haaland who gives a lot of credit to OGS to this day.
 
andersj said:
Being a good youth manager is not about giving most debuts. It is rather about matching young players correctly.

I think OGS has done very well with Greenwood overall. And at Molde he did very well with a lot of young players. Including Braut Haaland who gives a lot of credit to OGS to this day.
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with your post, I have just said that Ole doesn't give youth a chance in that aspect that people claim (not any debut this season, and in general very reserved about putting them on, see Luton, see Tranmere, see Watford, see West Ham, see Sociedad). And maybe he's right to do that, maybe he's wrong! That's not what I'm talking about though. And when I say THE FACT, people talking about an agenda. Laughable.
 
Think he might get his debut next week against Sociedad off the bench. 10-15 mins, similar to what Amad got this week.
 
Mickson said:
What in my post was wrong? And Mourinho was the best manager in the world in 2004. Solskjaer hasn't given a debut to any youth academy player this season and people still talking like he is some kind of youth coach.



Yeah, I had a discussion with you, and when you realized that I was right, you strangely disappeared. I wonder why. Maybe you can tell me now, which youth player has Ole played this season? Or am I gonna give the example of players that Mourinho and Guardiola have used, MORE DEBUTS than the mighty youth manager Solskjaer? If you are going to talk of agenda, you should at least try to put a hole in my arguments, which you can't do because it's a fact. So please stop talking shit when it doesn't fit you. I don't have an agenda against anything. I call things as I see them. It gets me very pissed off when people say I have an agenda, lazy argument.
Click to expand...

Which one of them has deserved it?
 
Red_toad said:
Which one of them has deserved it?
Click to expand...

We have a fantastic youth squad now. I would have given a debut to Hannibal, Shoretire, Elanga and Hugill. I have the opinion that if you score four goals against Liverpool U23, you should get rewarded with a place in the squad. It's not like Ole uses it that much either way. I think he had four defenders on the bench against WBA.. He could easily have had Mengi, Galbraith, Laird etc in ONE squad too (even if these players already have debuted).
 
Mickson said:
What in my post was wrong? And Mourinho was the best manager in the world in 2004. Solskjaer hasn't given a debut to any youth academy player this season and people still talking like he is some kind of youth coach.



Yeah, I had a discussion with you, and when you realized that I was right, you strangely disappeared. I wonder why. Maybe you can tell me now, which youth player has Ole played this season? Or am I gonna give the example of players that Mourinho and Guardiola have used, MORE DEBUTS than the mighty youth manager Solskjaer? If you are going to talk of agenda, you should at least try to put a hole in my arguments, which you can't do because it's a fact. So please stop talking shit when it doesn't fit you. I don't have an agenda against anything. I call things as I see them. It gets me very pissed off when people say I have an agenda, lazy argument.
Click to expand...

Because when you have the youngest squad in the league, you obviously have given youth chance.

He’s Sold, Loaned or Released many far more experienced older players who would have helped in the short term but have now gone for the good of the squad going forward, this is common knowledge. You clearly have an agenda, maybe you should listen to those people.
 
Bwuk said:
Think he might get his debut next week against Sociedad off the bench. 10-15 mins, similar to what Amad got this week.
Click to expand...
I’d give them longer, possibly start them, the tie is over and our main starters need the rest, don’t care what Ole says but Bruno is wrecked.
 
I'm still recovering from gomes not being a united senior player. I refuse to get excited about his lad.
 
Cast5 said:
Because when you have the youngest squad in the league, you obviously have given youth chance.

He’s Sold, Loaned or Released many far more experienced older players who would have helped in the short term but have now gone for the good of the squad going forward, this is common knowledge. You clearly have an agenda, maybe you should listen to those people.
Click to expand...

That's not the youth I'm talking about... It's not really impressive buying AWB for 50 million and then say that you give youth a chance, nor is it impressive to play one of your best players in Rashford who has been playing for several years before Ole took over and claim that he is giving youth a chance, someone has to have the youngest squad, doesn't really mean anything. You have to read what I'm saying. The club and Ole itself always stand tall with "we give youth a chance, we play academy players!" and if you look in the last year, he hasn't done that. I have posted this in another thread but Pep and Mourinho have given more debuts this season to academy players, two managers who are not really famous for bringing through youth. So for a club and a manager that always brags about this, he's not really doing it anymore. Maybe he did, but he doesn't do it now. It's a fact but you still talk about an agenda. IT'S A FACT. IT'S A FACT. YOU CAN LOOK IT UP YOURSELF. God.
 
Oh look another thread that has turned into a disaster, Christ guys can we not just have conversations anymore?
 
Mickson said:
We have a fantastic youth squad now. I would have given a debut to Hannibal, Shoretire, Elanga and Hugill. I have the opinion that if you score four goals against Liverpool U23, you should get rewarded with a place in the squad. It's not like Ole uses it that much either way. I think he had four defenders on the bench against WBA.. He could easily have had Mengi, Galbraith, Laird etc in ONE squad too (even if these players already have debuted).
Click to expand...
Hannibal got promoted once his form merited it. Laird got injured at a bad time, Hughill is 17 and I’d say he needs to fill out a bit before he’s ready for 1st team action. Elanga is injured and hadn’t been particularly good until just prior to his injury. Mengi went to shit when he got into first team training, his form fell off a cliff. And finally Shortire has taken some time to adjust to life in the under 23’s. Can’t bag Ole for not picking players who’ve been adjusting to under 23’s and not throwing them into the first team the instant they show some good form.
 
Red_toad said:
Hannibal got promoted once his form merited it. Laird got injured at a bad time, Hughill is 17 and I’d say he needs to fill out a bit before he’s ready for 1st team action. Elanga is injured and hadn’t been particularly good until just prior to his injury. Mengi went to shit when he got into first team training, his form fell off a cliff. And finally Shortire has taken some time to adjust to life in the under 23’s. Can’t bag Ole for not picking players who’ve been adjusting to under 23’s and not throwing them into the first team the instant they show some good form.
Click to expand...

Well, I agree that they all need more development before they are ready to compete at that level regularly. However, that is not necessary when we are talking about the ethos at the club and short cameos. Was Macheda ready? Was Rashford deemed ready (IMO not)? Also don't agree that Elanga hasn't been particularly good. Our most productive player going forward, almost every game. Shoretire could have got an opportunity against Sociedad. I still stand by that I would have given a chance to them. I remember when Rashford made his debut, he hadn't been better than any of these players. In fact, Hugill has absolutely smashed Rashford's goal-scoring at U23 level in only a few games.
 
Mickson said:
What in my post was wrong? And Mourinho was the best manager in the world in 2004. Solskjaer hasn't given a debut to any youth academy player this season and people still talking like he is some kind of youth coach.



Yeah, I had a discussion with you, and when you realized that I was right, you strangely disappeared. I wonder why. Maybe you can tell me now, which youth player has Ole played this season? Or am I gonna give the example of players that Mourinho and Guardiola have used, MORE DEBUTS than the mighty youth manager Solskjaer? If you are going to talk of agenda, you should at least try to put a hole in my arguments, which you can't do because it's a fact. So please stop talking shit when it doesn't fit you. I don't have an agenda against anything. I call things as I see them. It gets me very pissed off when people say I have an agenda, lazy argument.
Click to expand...

Debuts given are a poor measure of a coaches youth policy. Mourinho tried to claim a few years back a huge number of young players he gave debuts to. Does that mean he developed them effectively?

If you want to compare Guardiola, Mourinho and Ole you could look at the right backs they’ve all signed. Guardiola bought Kyle Walker when he had years of PL experience at Tottenham. Mourinho signed 28/29yr old Matt Doherty and Ole signed a young promising full back in AWB.

We are regularly playing an 18yr old forward in our front three in Mason Greenwood. Guardiola and Mourinho don’t do this unless they have an injury crisis. Phil Foden has had to wait until he was 20 and injuries to Kevin De Bruyne and others to get into the City team regularly.

As for Utd this season we’ve seen Henderson return to the club after a loan spell and replace Sergio Romero as our no2 (could be no1 by seasons end). A conservative coach would have kept the experienced hand and loaned him out again.
 
Mickson said:
Well, I agree that they all need more development before they are ready to compete at that level regularly. However, that is not necessary when we are talking about the ethos at the club and short cameos. Was Macheda ready? Was Rashford deemed ready (IMO not)? Also don't agree that Elanga hasn't been particularly good. Our most productive player going forward, almost every game. Shoretire could have got an opportunity against Sociedad. I still stand by that I would have given a chance to them. I remember when Rashford made his debut, he hadn't been better than any of these players. In fact, Hugill has absolutely smashed Rashford's goal-scoring at U23 level in only a few games.
Click to expand...

Rashford only played against Midjtylland cos of injuries though. Literally Will Keane was starting and got injured in the warm up.
 
Mickson said:
We have a fantastic youth squad now. I would have given a debut to Hannibal, Shoretire, Elanga and Hugill. I have the opinion that if you score four goals against Liverpool U23, you should get rewarded with a place in the squad. It's not like Ole uses it that much either way. I think he had four defenders on the bench against WBA.. He could easily have had Mengi, Galbraith, Laird etc in ONE squad too (even if these players already have debuted).
Click to expand...

There is a couple of issues at tolaynthere though. One, giving a youth team player a spot on the bench ahead of a senior player is making a big statement.

Secondly we generally have a large squad and even senior players like Van De Beek or Mata or James haven’t been used enough.

Also, there are COVID protocols in place meaning you can’t just add players on a whim this year.

We have also had some tough draws in the cups. So had we drawn a league two side then maybe you throw Hannibal or Mengi in but we’ve played Liverpool and West Ham.
 
sparx99 said:
Debuts given are a poor measure of a coaches youth policy. Mourinho tried to claim a few years back a huge number of young players he gave debuts to. Does that mean he developed them effectively?

If you want to compare Guardiola, Mourinho and Ole you could look at the right backs they’ve all signed. Guardiola bought Kyle Walker when he had years of PL experience at Tottenham. Mourinho signed 28/29yr old Matt Doherty and Ole signed a young promising full back in AWB.

We are regularly playing an 18yr old forward in our front three in Mason Greenwood. Guardiola and Mourinho don’t do this unless they have an injury crisis. Phil Foden has had to wait until he was 20 and injuries to Kevin De Bruyne and others to get into the City team regularly.

As for Utd this season we’ve seen Henderson return to the club after a loan spell and replace Sergio Romero as our no2 (could be no1 by seasons end). A conservative coach would have kept the experienced hand and loaned him out again.
Click to expand...

That has nothing to do with what I'm arguing about though. I still talk about: how many academy players does he give a chance to? This season: none. Mourinho and Pep have more. And yes, in general, Ole is better than Mourinho. But many people here and Ole and the club always brag about this, and he just doesn't do it anymore! I'm sorry! He did it before, but he doesn't anymore.

sparx99 said:
Rashford only played against Midjtylland cos of injuries though. Literally Will Keane was starting and got injured in the warm up.
Click to expand...

I know.
 
Mickson said:
We have a fantastic youth squad now. I would have given a debut to Hannibal, Shoretire, Elanga and Hugill. I have the opinion that if you score four goals against Liverpool U23, you should get rewarded with a place in the squad. It's not like Ole uses it that much either way. I think he had four defenders on the bench against WBA.. He could easily have had Mengi, Galbraith, Laird etc in ONE squad too (even if these players already have debuted).
Click to expand...
It would be terrible youth management to play these players. They simply aren't ready yet and would end up wrote off and under huge pressure when they inevitably fail to perform to premier lewgue quality.
 
Mickson said:
That's not the youth I'm talking about... It's not really impressive buying AWB for 50 million and then say that you give youth a chance, nor is it impressive to play one of your best players in Rashford who has been playing for several years before Ole took over and claim that he is giving youth a chance, someone has to have the youngest squad, doesn't really mean anything. You have to read what I'm saying. The club and Ole itself always stand tall with "we give youth a chance, we play academy players!" and if you look in the last year, he hasn't done that. I have posted this in another thread but Pep and Mourinho have given more debuts this season to academy players, two managers who are not really famous for bringing through youth. So for a club and a manager that always brags about this, he's not really doing it anymore. Maybe he did, but he doesn't do it now. It's a fact but you still talk about an agenda. IT'S A FACT. IT'S A FACT. YOU CAN LOOK IT UP YOURSELF. God.
Click to expand...

Who says it’s not impressive? You?

Giving youth a chance by buying young players is giving youth a chance, We have younger squads than both City and Tottenham, We also have more academy graduates in our starting 11 than both of those teams combined. This is a fact.

You’re saying giving a player the odd debut in the FA Cup against a league 2 side is giving youth a chance over someone who has moulded his squad around young players? Who has currently the 5th youngest squad in the whole league and the youngest squad in the league last year? Poor Frank Lampard had to rely on kids last year and was given heaps of praise for it when Ole’s squad was younger. Stop with the agenda you are talking complete rubbish, comparing Ole to Mourinho on youth is why I don’t take you OleOut lot seriously.

Again - He’s Sold, Loaned or Released many far more experienced older players who would have helped in the short term but have now gone for the good of the squad going forward. You can’t disagree with this and say with a straight face you don’t have an agenda.


Mickson said:
You should start reading what I'm saying. I don't care what he did, how young his squad is, and what kind of car he is driving. Totally irrelevant. How many youth players has he given a debut to this season? How many youth players debuted against the mighty Tranmere? Or Luton? Or Watford? You still talk about an agenda, can you even read? I'm starting to worry about that. Regarding the bolded, I have never disagreed with that either. So why are you talking about things I don't even discuss?
Click to expand...

You say the club and Ole boast about giving youth a chance, you agree with the fact that he’s removed older players and given youth a chance. Now you’re saying he didn’t give the academy lads debuts against Luton and Tranmere which proves that he hasn’t given youth a chance, have you heard yourself? You’re just making yourself look silly with this agenda now.

I’ve edited my this response into my previous post because I’ve ran out of posts @Mickson
 
Last edited:
spontaneus1 said:
It would be terrible youth management to play these players. They simply aren't ready yet and would end up wrote off and under huge pressure when they inevitably fail to perform to premier lewgue quality.
Click to expand...

How do you know that? Was Rashford better than anyone of them at the stage he made his debut? Doubtful. And I'm not talking about starting an away game to City. Play Elanga left wing for the last 20 minutes against Luton. No way he would feel huge pressure and criticism. Elanga has been tearing up League One sides by himself, I'm sure he would be fine against the mighty Luton. He's not a baby...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.