yup that's fair.
Still being 37 is understandable not having the engine to gallop up and down like in his youth.
Sheep Draft S/F: Indnyc vs Enigma/TRV
- Thread starter Pat_Mustard
- Start date
Still being 37 is understandable not having the engine to gallop up and down like in his youth.
That wouldn't be his peak though. This is probably a closer representation of how he would play here (though we'd need to find some Botafogo footage to really see his peak):
The reason I'm sceptical of Nílton as an attacking full-back is that Marzolini was also considered an attacking full-back and even from his time at River the footage shows a rather defensive full-back, at least that's what the video Pat put together shows. So I'm dubious of how attacking Nílton was at club level for this reason.
Why? I've always advocated him as the Cafu type that would do exactly what the latter would do in draft games - not just because we've picked him here. Nilton was a pioneer of the position. You have to take into account that managers put the hand break on him in terms of attacking contribution. I don't think it's question of qualities as well whether he would be able to fill into Facchetti role - he had them both physically and tactically.
enigma mentioned 62 so i answered just that as i watched those games earlier this(last) year.
Here's a clip that has a few brief from his younger Botafogo days and you can see more explosiveness
From memory he was advancing more against England in 62 due to having more "freedom" in tactical sense. Still he was 37 as you mentioned.
So you know whether he was playing full back at this time? From the clips he looked like he was on the wing
I'm not aware of Nilton ever playing as a winger. He was always a fullback from everything I've seen.
On the player profile Enigma posted said he was originally an attacker and was converted to a full-back at Botofogo. The question is when did it happen at Botofogo.
At botafogo he was converted to full back.
In all reports I could find described him being forward initially.
From Eoin Coyne in one of the better Nilton’s reports out there.
Last edited:
As a youth player I'd say.
As a senior player he was always listed as defender here is 1949 and every year after he is defender on every team sheet I've seen.
https://www.worldfootball.net/teams/botafogo-rj/1949/2/
Just came online.
Hello everyone.
Good luck, @Indnyc !
I was about to post about how basing Nilton not being an attacking full-back based on video clips from 1958 WC and 1962 WC doesn't do him justice as he was already 30 odd years old and past his physical prime. But @oneniltothearsenal and @Enigma_87 have elaborated on that really. Man was called the pioneer of the attacking full-back for a reason. He was a genuine attacking outlet from the left flank.
Also, it needs to be highlighted that Nilton won't be the only one providing any sort of attacking output from the left flank. We don't have the Real Madrid Puskas here. We have the Honved Puskas. Far far more mobile, great burst of pace and excellent in tight space, making him an outstanding inside forward. While he wasn't an out and out winger like Czibor he still contributed in terms of creativity from that zone. A role similar to the role a young ADP had where he was not only an excellent goalscorer but a primary creator as well.
Indnyc's team is really good and his defense is his MO. But like we mentioned in our OP, our defense isn't far off either. Especially when we consider the gap between Nilton vs Cole and Preud'homme and Tancredi. And, Cole who is Indnyc's weakest link is up against Best. A clear mis-match. We have got a better midfield and a much superior attack. An attack filled with some of the best match-winners the game has seen. I trust the likes of Puskas, Zidane and Best to come up with that moment of magic and win us the match.
Hello everyone.
Good luck, @Indnyc !
I was about to post about how basing Nilton not being an attacking full-back based on video clips from 1958 WC and 1962 WC doesn't do him justice as he was already 30 odd years old and past his physical prime. But @oneniltothearsenal and @Enigma_87 have elaborated on that really. Man was called the pioneer of the attacking full-back for a reason. He was a genuine attacking outlet from the left flank.
Also, it needs to be highlighted that Nilton won't be the only one providing any sort of attacking output from the left flank. We don't have the Real Madrid Puskas here. We have the Honved Puskas. Far far more mobile, great burst of pace and excellent in tight space, making him an outstanding inside forward. While he wasn't an out and out winger like Czibor he still contributed in terms of creativity from that zone. A role similar to the role a young ADP had where he was not only an excellent goalscorer but a primary creator as well.
Indnyc's team is really good and his defense is his MO. But like we mentioned in our OP, our defense isn't far off either. Especially when we consider the gap between Nilton vs Cole and Preud'homme and Tancredi. And, Cole who is Indnyc's weakest link is up against Best. A clear mis-match. We have got a better midfield and a much superior attack. An attack filled with some of the best match-winners the game has seen. I trust the likes of Puskas, Zidane and Best to come up with that moment of magic and win us the match.
Nilton of 1958 probably comes closest. Though providing width all through the match is not really the norm those days. He was adventurous and has the tendency to move up the flank. As a standard back 4 fullback, I don't have any questions on his attacking output. But as a wingback, he does fall short as would everyone from the old era.
For this match, it may not be optimal, but I don't really see Nilton as a misfit there. Though with Puskas, would have preferred a more modern attacking wingback.
Yeah.. I mentioned that before.. Don’t have a problem with Nilton as an attacking fullback but feel with Rummenigge he isn’t going to enjoy the same freedom in such a tight game
The more narrow the pitch the better it is for my team
Good find. I think Nílton now deserves to be considered more attacking than Marzolini, but where I'd put him in comparison with more modern players I'm still not sure. I mean Maldink got forward really well early in his career but I wouldn't want him overlapping Puskas on a regular basis
I think his assessment as an attacking full back are fair.. I feel for a Zona Mista type formation he isn’t the best fit..
If Nilton was playing in modern times and with the Brazilian heritage I think he’d be closer to Bobby Carlos rather than Maldini.
Still his superior reading of the game and defensive skills were ahead of his time and far superior of those of his contemporaries.
In a 4-2-3-1 in terms of modern formation as an attacking full back I’d say he will be at home and in his zone.
Tried to explain it (the reason we mentioned zona mista) but ever since the first round we have moved piece by piece from zone Mista to a 4-2-3-1 or more of a lopsided variation of it with one defensive full back and right winger and one more attacking full back and inside left in Puskas.
Personally I think both Nilton and Puskas will thrive in their partnership here (bias aside of course)
Off to bed, good luck mate and will check the game back tomorrow.
Last edited:
The best of Puskas has been with a more traditional winger and similarly for Nilton.. Anyway.. Good luck to you as well.. We’ve both made our points
a great documentary of Puskas. Truly one of the very best to play the game.
And of course some more of Zidane, who is in the final stages and certainly one of the big game players when it comes to clutch moments.
Which game do you want me to checkout. I'd have preferred a couple of gifs from the games you have watched to prove me wrong, but game and time of move should be okay too. I have seen most of these in the past and I don't think he played a proper wing back role in either of those tournaments. Let alone one at an all time great full backs level.
A few runs forward doesn't make him a wing back capable of running a flank in an all time draft on his own while also being wary of a multiple Ballon dor winning mammoth in Kalle.
I am not going to count the reports you posted because that logic has been dismissed with a lot of pre footage players, so no reason Nilton should be treated any differently.
I have watched a couple of his full games from pre 1958 WC too when he was slightly younger for Brazil, and even there he was nowhere at a wing backs level. In fact, I didn't even see him cross the half way too many times.
Regarding Puskas, I'll be honest, I havent seen his work at Honved but his work at Madrid (of which there is a hell lot of footage) is a testimony of his inside left work and he was always in and around the box playing between Gento/Di Stefano. His left sided role here is similarly questionable unless you have footage to prove.
Adding both those, your left flank is questionable in every sense. I know its not seen that way in draft games as we have established our favorites and the Nilton/Puskas arguments would still end up in the drain, but then there has to be uniformity and less hypocrisy across players.
Quite a few have already discussed this I guess but to be fair to my earlier point, I will put my thoughts.
1. Kocsis would have preferred a supplier from the right, especially one who would constantly get use of his heading ability.
2. Kalle without a wing back again is going to be difficult to pull off. He is not going to score from the touchline and you would constantly need someone to stretch the pitch of Kalle has to chip in with goals. I guess you would have watched United's game yesterday. Mata can drift central all he wants, as long as a shit wing back in Valencia is there, that right side will be non existent and become a pain in the ass. It would only make Enigma's team defend easily against you since it becomes very predictable in certain zones.
Garrincha here would have been draft winning IMO.
The only full games that are on unfortunately are from the WC in 58 and 62.
In 58 against Austria he scored for 2-0 and you can see his advance position:
Onenil also posted some short video on his explosiveness from his early days.
Nilton isn't really pre footage mate. A lot of credible journalists including Jonathan Wilson present him as one of the first attacking full backs. He came from an era where Facchetti also began revolutionizing that full back position and I've rarely saw the latter being criticized as an attacking full back, shouldn't be different for Nilton IMO.
Bear in mind that he was already 33-37 by the time of those world cups and if we're just discarding players like that from the 50's and 60's (note not pre war ones) then players like Didi, Di Stefano, Djalma, Pele should be no where near GOAT statuses and would "struggle" in modern game.
As you mentioned below Kalle would have little support from Bergomi. Indnyc attack is more predictable to us and our defensive unit IMO would have less work compared to dealing with Puskas, Zidane, Greaves and Best.
If you are scrutinizing our left flank the same should be done for the opposition right.
Also younger Puskas was the peak one that was much more explosive and mobile than the one at Real with Gento and Di Stefano around where he was more of a pure striker.
exactly so. In any sense our left flank isn't less narrow compared to the opposition right IMO.
Also you are disregarding a bit Best on Cole IMO. With Desailly engaged with Zidane - for example you can see how many times he's stepping up here to him:
Best would have a lot of opportunities to isolate Cole.
Sure Czibor might be tasked to regularly track back, but then Indnyc attack will lose a lot of supply and make it even more predictable to our defence.
Scirea, Forster, Nilton, Gentile, shielded by Mackay and Neeskens is a formidable unit that is up to the task and well matched to what is against IMO.
And also we have the better keeper, which sadly means crap these days in drafts.
Cole's performances against Ronaldo make me feel he wouldn't do too bad against Best. I think its a fair fight. Cole never really struggled against the young Ronaldo who was a trickster much like Best.
You are right I should and I have, but Kalle on the right is still functional. He is still a wing forward. Peak Puskas isn't one from what I have seen.
That is where he slightly edged my vote. Cheers for the discussion, but I am out of posts count again
Cole's performances against Ronaldo make me feel he wouldn't do too bad against Best. I think its a fair fight. Cole never really struggled against the young Ronaldo who was a trickster much like Best.
You are right I should and I have, but Kalle on the right is still functional. He is still a wing forward. Peak Puskas isn't one from what I have seen.
That is where he slightly edged my vote. Cheers for the discussion, but I am out of posts count again
Best at his peak was a natural winger though, and young Ronaldo as good as he was was not peak Best on the wing mate
Thanks for the thoughts.. My idea was to have a goal scoring wing forward in Kalle and an out and out winger in Czibor. I can understand the reservations and the flaws
Anyway, my build was around Beckenbauer and I couldn’t have provided a better platform for him.
Cole's performances against Ronaldo make me feel he wouldn't do too bad against Best. I think its a fair fight. Cole never really struggled against the young Ronaldo who was a trickster much like Best.
You are right I should and I have, but Kalle on the right is still functional. He is still a wing forward. Peak Puskas isn't one from what I have seen.
That is where he slightly edged my vote. Cheers for the discussion, but I am out of posts count again
Best was a different kind of winger than Cristiano though. Best's game was a lot more about trickery, twists and turns compared to Cristiano.
Also, I completely disagree that Indnyc's right side is more balanced or has more width than our left's. Its ok if you consider Kalle to be more natural out wide than Puskas. But you're not counting the full-backs here. Nilton would offer a lot lot more in attacking phase than Bergomi. So, a lot of the creativity burden falls on the shoulders of Kalle.
While Indnyc has got a good team, he simply doesn't have enough attacking prowess to really trouble us defensively. His major source of goals would be from Czibor to Kocsis and we have Gentile dealing with Czibor and Forster dealing with Kocsis with Scirea helping them out.
Compare that to us, we have Puskas, Best and Zidane. Three All-Time Greats in attack who can impact the game with their genius by rising to the occasion.
Puskas for instance is criminally underrated. Here's one of the most knowledgeable football writer about Puskas.
Jonathan Wilson:- Best, Beckenbauer, Platini, Zidane - Puskas topped them all.
Ferenc Puskas was, along with Johan Cruyff, one of the two greatest European footballers of all time, says Jonathan Wilson.
How great was Ferenc Puskas? Such things, necessarily, are subjective - and, particularly when you're going on video footage, almost impossible to judge - but for me he stands alongside Johan Cruyff as one of the two greatest European players of all time.
It is not just his technical ability. Other players have had that. It is not even the fact that he had key parts in two of the most celebrated games ever played on British soil - Hungary's 6-3 victory over England at Wembley in 1953 and Real Madrid's 7-3 victory over Eintracht Frankfurt in 1960. It is the fact that that ability was allied to a brain that understood how best to use his ability for the team.
That is why his nickname, the 'Galloping Major', was so appropriate - even if he hardly galloped and, at the time it was bestowed, was only a lieutenant - because he was so good at marshalling his side towards a common goal. "If a good player has the ball, he should have the vision to spot three options," the full-back Jeno Buzanszky said. "Puskas always saw at least five."
Team-mates complained about Puskas's influence over coaches and about his constant hectoring on the pitch, but nobody ever accused him of being selfish. Along with everything else, he was a hugely astute leader. In his first season at Real Madrid, for instance, he and the notoriously difficult Alfredo di Stefano were joint leading scorers going into the final match of the season. Late on, Puskas had a chance to score but opted instead to wait and square it for Di Stefano, recognising the problems it could cause for morale if the Argentinian did not finish as top scorer. He showed similar selflessness after that 1960 European Cup final, handing the match ball to Erwin Stein, who had scored two of Eintracht's three goals. Puskas had scored four.
There are those who carp that Puskas was very left-footed. He was, but it hardly diminished him. "You can only kick with one foot at a time," he once said. "Otherwise you fall on your arse." As an example of how his turned a weakness into a strength, you only have to look at that game against England in 1953.
With Hungary leading 2-1, a cross from the left found him at the back post. He took the ball down and it seemed that he had to hit it with his right foot. Billy Wright, England's captain, went flying in to make a challenge, "rushing," as Geoffrey Green put it in the Times, "like a fire-engine going to the wrong fire". Puskas, slipped the ball back with the sole of his left foot, leaving Wright sprawling and, with barely any backlift, thrashed his finish past Gil Merrick. The Hungarian radio commentator Gyorgy Szepesi remembers walking on to the pitch after the game and examining the spot. "They should have laid down a plaque," he said.
Comparisons are made with George Best, not least because Puskas enjoyed a similarly hectic social life. Tales of his drinking exploits with Jim Baxter are legion, and the late Scotland winger, who maintained that the Hungarian had just two words of English - "vhisky" and "jiggy-jig" - often told the story of arriving at a party in Drumchapel on the outskirts of Glasgow to find Puskas "jiggy-jigging" in the scullery.
But Puskas's habit never got in the way of his football and, after the two-year exile he served following his defection in 1956, he had the self-discipline to lose 18kg before lining up for Real Madrid. With an Olympic gold, a World Cup silver, five Hungarian league titles, five Spanish championships and a European Cup, plus the fact he was top scorer in Spain four times, his achievements dwarf those of Best.
The decline of Hungarian football since has only magnified the greatness of Puskas's side. I arrived in Budapest last month, in the week they lost to Malta, and I even heard it said that at least Puskas, suffering then the later stages of Alzheimer's, would not understand.
"His brain is over," said the Olympic water-polo champion Gyorgy Karpati, who visited him regularly. "He is just a body waiting for the day when it will be over." Sentimentally, there were those who wished he would hold on until Saturday week, November 25, the date of the 6-3. Amid all the commemorations of the Uprising, no anniversary will be so soaked in tears as that.
"If I say Hungary, I say Puskas," Karpati went on. "If you go to Venezuela or Naples or Australia and you say Hungary, people would say Puskas. That says it all."
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2006/nov/17/sport.comment2
good game @Indnyc . Your team was the one I didn't want to face and was beautifully crafted. Not much to criticize, could've gone either way.
Cant believe indy lost this one, was 3-8 when i voted which is absurd.
That defense is near perfect with only cole needing an upgrade.
That defense is near perfect with only cole needing an upgrade.
Not fully seduced by both strategies and I'm note sure I have voted for the best team.
Voted for Enigma/TRV despite his left flank and the big hole between Puskas and Nilton Santos. The former doesn't look suited to defend on the wing while Nilton seems to be a kind of playmaking LB with long passing skills and sometime cutting inside.
I would have voted for Indnyc if:
- he had a more offensive right-back or a midfielder who can bring something offensively on the right.
- or Desailly in central defence and Beckenbauer in midfield.
Zidane made the difference and Indyc's midfield is a bit congested.
I was the last to have voted: making the score from 7-8 to 7-9 for Enigma. So I guess somebody has changed his vote to transform 3-8 into 4-7.
Voted for Enigma/TRV despite his left flank and the big hole between Puskas and Nilton Santos. The former doesn't look suited to defend on the wing while Nilton seems to be a kind of playmaking LB with long passing skills and sometime cutting inside.
I would have voted for Indnyc if:
- he had a more offensive right-back or a midfielder who can bring something offensively on the right.
- or Desailly in central defence and Beckenbauer in midfield.
Zidane made the difference and Indyc's midfield is a bit congested.
I was the last to have voted: making the score from 7-8 to 7-9 for Enigma. So I guess somebody has changed his vote to transform 3-8 into 4-7.
Felt the RR Indnyc had by far the best team but let us back in with Kalle and Desailly. Not that either of them were bad choices, far from it, but considering the pool going with Pele/Maradona/Di Stefano and MvB/Muller would've made it really unbeatable.
Having Best and Neeskens really bridged the gap there and IMO made our attack better to edge it here.
I reckon if Indy could have drafted Best instead of Kalle he would have won this. He doesn't need an attacking full back and can score goals. He'd fit perfectly in this setup
Yeah thats true, kalle maybe wasn't ideal and those are two GOAT picks from you but I do love his midfield and desailly adds a lot there. Maybe swapping Desailly and Beckenbauer might have been better.
I liked Johnstone more in that formation. Two out and out wingers on both sides stretching play seemed ideal.
I don't have objections of Kalle in that role either. If the other LW was the goalscorer type it wouldn't be much of an issue for others either. Having Kalle who is Indnyc 2nd best (and why not even best) goalscoring option however does him disservice if he has to be more of a provider and stretch the pitch. Without a goalscoring LW and a #10 you'd need Kalle much closer to the box and that was my only criticism of the set up.
Swap Best and Kalle and we most likely would've lost the game.
Yeah i would have put kalle up top and have johnstone as a right winger but yeah indy with any other goat is game over basically.
You have Mackay sandwiched between Souness and Kalle there, which imo is a recipe for disaster. Both Souness and Kalle are superior to Mackay and he is in for a very troubled game.
Kalle will drift all around and will mostly have a straight shot at Enigma's defence. I didn't want to argue too much, but thought Indy had this covered.
One more draw @Enigma_87 , eh? Doing this the England way!