Sheep draft - Raees vs Joga Bonito

[Balu]

Litti at his peak scored 1 in 2 for a rather meh Koln side in the Bundesliga.

Wouldn't call them 'meh'. The Cologne team from the early 80's usually finished in the top 5, challenged for the league title once or twice, won a cup. They reached an UEFA cup final and another UEFA cup semifinal. If only Schuster stayed and didn't leave so early, he could have been the difference and lead that team to several titles.

 

[Balu]

BTW what's the general opinion on Dzajic here. Raees was claiming he was on the same level as Garrincha and Best while claiming he's better than Czibor and that Burgnich isn't a match for him. We decided to disagree and leave it that but I'm curious to know what's the general view on this matter. I see quite a few comments on Raees's impressive left flank, is that due to Dzajic or Breitner or both?

Don't think there's much between them, both were fantastic left wingers. It's difficult to compare because both found themselves in so very different circumstances in their teams. I wouldn't put either of them on the same level as Garrincha and Best.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Wouldn't call them 'meh'. The Cologne team from the early 80's usually finished in the top 5, challenged for the league title once or twice, won a cup. They reached an UEFA cup final and another UEFA cup semifinal. If only Schuster stayed and didn't leave so early, he could have been the difference and lead that team to several titles.

Shh Balu, let me paint Littbarski in a better light

Don't think there's much between them, both were fantastic left wingers. It's difficult to compare because both found themselves in so very different circumstances in their teams. I wouldn't put either of them on the same level as Garrincha and Best.

Agreed and I'd never have made such an outrageous claim although I'd say Czibor was better than Dzajic.

It just astounded me seeing Raees making sweeping claims whereby Burgnich couldn't handle Dzajic and that Dzajic was up there with Best and Garrincha.

 

[Physiocrat]

It feels wrong to vote against Batigol but I've gone for Joga. Joga's midfield three is more balanced; I don't like seeing Effenberg being required to do the heavy lifting whereas Mascherano will be more in his element. Also Joga's centre-back pairing is excellent. I can see Vieri getting more joy than Batigol here.

 

[Joga Bonito]

It feels wrong to vote against Batigol but I've gone for Joga. Joga's midfield three is more balanced; I don't like seeing Effenberg being required to do the heavy lifting whereas Mascherano will be more in his element. Also Joga's centre-back pairing is excellent. I can see Vieri getting more joy than Batigol here.

Agreed it's a really tight match with few areas such as the flanks being an even battle which can go either way.

Where I have the advantage is in midfield (Raees concedes this himself in the OP) where there are obvious question marks over Boban and Hagi playing in a compact and deeper midfield. Effenberg does look a tad bit overburdened with too much to do imo. Plus Suárez & Schuster have the extra freedom and space afforded to them to shine.

My primary goalscoring threat will also have more joy against Vasoviv-Carvalho than Batigol against Kohler-Hierro. These 2 critical factors could very well decide the match imo.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Don't think there's much between them, both were fantastic left wingers. It's difficult to compare because both found themselves in so very different circumstances in their teams. I wouldn't put either of them on the same level as Garrincha and Best.

Indeed. We'd be faced with three dozen "pretty much the best winger in the world" if they were.

They're legendary players, both of them - one for being an important part of one of the best national sides ever (and, yes, doing a fine job on the club front too, but he ain't a legend for that), the other for being a legend, pretty much. And he is that. One of the big names from behind the iron curtain (well, all things are relative - as Tito himself would no doubt remind us if he were around) who never got to play for a big (or rather what is recognized as such - we don't seem to recognize either Eastern European or South American clubs as "big", in spite of the fact that they often enough ran circles round supposedly "big" sides from the hallowed side of the fence) club and make his mark.

Still, football people in the west weren't idiots and he wasn't perfectly unrecognized. Made an impression on the journos who awarded the Ballon back in the day - like, say, Masopust or Florian Albert. Only less so - 'cause our boy never actually won it.

I'd say the claim made in the OP - that he's the best left winger in history - is obviously debatable. Obviously. Great, dark horse sort of player, though - very happy to see him discussed here.

 

[Raees]

Nothing wrong with presenting your case properly, my friend. Spoilers are a good idea, though, as some might be inclined to take thoroughness for overkill - might piss off scan voters and so forth.

One detail (seeing as we're being thorough): The bit about Neeskens doesn't strike me as relevant. You don't have Neeskens - and I wouldn't say you have anyone like him either - which may actually turn the point against you. Not saying it does - it's obviously primarily meant as an illustration of how good your man was, but still. It doesn't say anything beyond "he was good and here's yet another point to prove it", and you don't really need that. If you had Neeskens - or if you had set up like Ajax in the early 70s - then it would've been a great point. But you don't - so it ain't.

mmm, partly agree. You need both. But if pushed to make a choice, I'd rate balance over individual technical ability. Take Real's Galacticos as a example, putting in a bunch of technically accomplished players does not necessarily equate to success. You need a balance to the team (a la Makelele sale) without which the overall impact is greatly reduced. I haven't made my choice yet, as despite the balance you still have raw firepower to push through even on goals. Let me put this on for a bit later.

Yes, it makes a interesting read. But you should differentiate between player profile and tactics discussion. They have overlaps, but posting full profile kind of shadows the tactical point you are trying to make.

That is the key point, I will bear that in mind for the next draft.

• Don't think either midfield is perfectly balanced so there's no tactical advantage to either side there.
• Joga's defence is brilliantly imposing and looks a cut above Raaes in getting the job done. What it lacks is ability on the ball but he does have Hierro in there opening up play with his raking long balls and Cole providing short-and-sharp interplay.
• Gerets and Breitner will contribute significantly to the shape of the game here and it would be important that Joga's wingers do their fair share of tracking.
• Vasovic and Carvalho were great defenders but as a partnership they will be vulnerable to Vieri's bullying and aerial strength. It's a bit like when I faced up to Anto with Nordahl up front against Vasovic and Rio. You'd fancy Vieri to get something off one of the creative geniuses behind him.
• In contrast you'd feel that Kohler would have a better chance of nullifying some of Batistuta's strengths because he is both the best defender on the park and a grizzly man-marker who'd relish the battle.
• Schwarzer stands out like a sore thumb in this company.

Vieri is being made to look like he is superhuman.

Vieri received his first international cap during the 1996–97 season after some impressive displays for Juventus. He scored a key goal for Italy in the play off against Russia during qualification for the 1998 World Cup. At the finals of the tournament in France he formed a strong partnership with Roberto Baggio. Vieri opened the scoring against Chile after an assist from his strike partner. He went on to score three more goals against Cameroon and Austria during the group stage. Vieri scored Italy's only goal in the round of 16 match against Norway. He scored Italy's fourth penalty in the quarterfinal shooutout against France butLuigi Di Biagio missed the fifth and Italy were eliminated. That quarter-final showdown against France was the only game of the tournament in which Vieri was unable to score.

Vieri missed out on Euro 2000 after suffering a recurrence of an old thigh injury, during the fourth place playoff with Parma at the end of the 1999–2000 seasonafter a collision with Gianluigi Buffon, who would also miss out on the tournament.

Italy played Vieri as a lone striker in the 2002 World Cup, scoring an impressive four goals in four games. He managed a brace in the opening game againstEcuador and scored Italy's only goal in the 2–1 defeat to Croatia despite having a previous goal incorrectly ruled out for offside. In the round-of-16 match against South Korea he opened the scoring in the 18th minute, scoring a powerful header from a Francesco Totti corner. Italy led the game until the Koreans equalised 3 minutes before the end. Italy was eventually eliminated by South Korea by a golden goal. The only game in which he failed to find the net was against Mexico in a 1–1 draw.

His world cup exploits are against weaker sides, can someone explain to me, his effectiveness against top top defenders. How is he rated so highly?

I simply can't separate the teams either. Joga has a slightly better defense, but his keeper is Schwarzer. How did you end up with him again?!

Raes playing a compact midfield, on the other hand, just invites way too much pressure IMO, even with a solid defense. I'm not convinced about the argument he presented against that.

It could well be a coin toss for my vote

I did say it will occasionally press too. It is a sensible midfield, it won't just completely sit off like sitting ducks.. it is just a tad more cautious than his, I am not going toe to toe but I am not a shrinking violet by any means.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

1) Raees is trying to play a compact and disciplined midfield who are sitting deeper. Firstly conceding space and time to Suárez & Schuster isn't the best way to go about things.

2) Secondly he doesn't have the midfield personnel to pull this off. Hagi isn't going to contribute much defensively, Boban is primarily a creative midfielder and has the tenacity & industry but not necessarily the defensive nous to play such a demanding defensive role and Effenberg will be overburdened and chasing shadows. Once again regarding sajeev's point on individual quality. Boban might look like a more quality and talented player than Mascherano but the latter would much more at ease and better in Raees's set up.

That's the difference maker in this match in my opinion. Raees has great individual quality in midfield but the balance and tactics seem off to me.

 

[Gio]

His world cup exploits are against weaker sides, can someone explain to me, his effectiveness against top top defenders. How is he rated so highly?

He thrived in Serie A when it was still a proper league and there were a lot of top top defenders kicking about - Maldini, Nesta, Cannavaro, Thuram, Stam, Montero, etc. Had a brilliant season with Atletico in La Liga as well.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Vieri is being made to look like he is superhuman.


His world cup exploits are against weaker sides, can someone explain to me, his effectiveness against top top defenders. How is he rated so highly?

As Gio says, he was prolific in Serie A, and he did the business against the bigger teams as well.



That goal was against a Parma defence containing Buffon, Thuram and Cannavaro.

 

[Raees]

He thrived in Serie A when it was still a proper league and there were a lot of top top defenders kicking about - Maldini, Nesta, Cannavaro, Thuram, Stam, Montero, etc. Had a brilliant season with Atletico in La Liga as well.

I am aware of that, I wanted more specific info in terms of his big match performances against those particular stars.

As Gio says, he was prolific in Serie A, and he did the business against the bigger teams as well.



That goal was against a Parma defence containing Buffon, Thuram and Cannavaro.

Thanks, that is what I am looking for. They were still up and coming at the time, fantastic goal nonetheless.. any more examples. I am genuinely interested to know because my knowledge on him is pretty limited to be honest, I didn't realise he was so highly rated.

 

[Gio]

This is draft suicide extolling the virtues of the opposition's front man, but if you insist:



A few notable scalps in there.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I am aware of that, I wanted more specific info in terms of his big match performances against those particular stars.



Thanks, that is what I am looking for. They were still up and coming at the time, fantastic goal nonetheless.. any more examples. I am genuinely interested to know because my knowledge on him is pretty limited to be honest, I didn't realise he was so highly rated.

Not sure he is - as such. Nor that he should be - as such.

He was magnificent for a spell. Powerful as feck, more slick than you'd think, fast as a fecker too for a supposed big man and...a big man, hell in the air - in short, an incredibly dangerous striker. His peak was short, though. He seemed to blossom somewhat unexpectedly, everything sort of fell into place for him and for a short while he was practically unplayable, as several others have been before him, in various positions.

He isn't an all time great striker for my money. Not even close. Bloody good at the top of his game, though. Needs the right setup to shine too, clearly. Which he might have here. Sort of. Not a bad set-up anyway - it suits him well.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Vieri is being made to look like he is superhuman.

His world cup exploits are against weaker sides, can someone explain to me, his effectiveness against top top defenders. How is he rated so highly?

That is quite literally the last card you should be playing when it comes to downplaying Vieri with Batistuta in your side...

Flat track bully (Batistuta) at World Cups, honest.

Yep, I was saying the same as Anto in the game.

His 10 goals were against:

Greece x 3
Romania
Japan
Jamaica x 3
England
Nigeria

 

[Raees]

This is draft suicide extolling the virtues of the opposition's front man, but if you insist:



A few notable scalps in there.

The games gone anyway. I'd rather widen my knowledge here and maybe pick him up in a future draft. Thanks gio and @Chesterlestreet.

Fwiw I agree with you Joga, I don't think Batigols wc record is much to write home about but he had some cracking big game club performances which live long in the memory hence making him scan voter friendly. I wanted to know if Veiri had that same sort of history club wise.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

For what it's worth, 'Stuta is closer to a truly great player for me than Vieri. I don't think either of them are, though. Truly great, as in - among that select few you speak of with a certain tremble in yer voice. They ain't there. Below, both of 'em, but arguably close at the top of their game.

'Stuta was top of the line for longer, I'd say. That's to his advantage. He was technically better too. Better finisher all in all, I'd say, as well.

Not any sort of chasm between 'em, mind. Vieri was immense on song. And he was more terrible to deal with one-on-one for a centre half - clearly so, I'd say.

But, yeah, if I had to pick one - not knowing what set-up I'd use 'em in, I'd pick 'Stuta. Others may - and will - disagree, no doubt.

 

[Joga Bonito]

The games gone anyway. I'd rather widen my knowledge here and maybe pick him up in a future draft. Thanks gio and @Chesterlestreet.

Fwiw I agree with you Joga, I don't think Batigols wc record is much to write home about but he had some cracking big game club performances which live long in the memory hence making him scan voter friendly. I wanted to know if Veiri had that same sort of history club wise.

Fair enough and no, the game's not gone yet mate. Just 4 votes in it and I remember being up 11-4 and waking up to find myself 13-11 down in my last match .

He played extremely well for Inter in a pretty strong league and put in some terrific performances. If I'm not mistaken being plagued by injuries took something away from his game. If not he could have even been better for a more consistent period of time. At his peak he was probably the best striker in the world (being transferred for a world record fee from Lazio)with Ronaldo being injured.

In fact that world record transfer led to a fan throwing himself under the train.

http://m.espn.go.com/soccer/story?storyId=831633

Just imagine those two, Ronaldo & Vieri together . As if one of them wasnt bad enough to contend with for Series A defenses. Shame about those injuries which deprived their time together at Inter and had a severe negative impact on both their careers.

 

[Joga Bonito]

For what it's worth, 'Stuta is closer to a truly great player for me than Vieri. I don't think either of them are, though. Truly great, as in - among that select few you speak of with a certain tremble in yer voice. They ain't there. Below, both of 'em, but arguably close at the top of their game.

'Stuta was top of the line for longer, I'd say. That's to his advantage. He was technically better too. Better finisher all in all, I'd say, as well.

Not any sort of chasm between 'em, mind. Vieri was immense on song. And he was more terrible to deal with one-on-one for a centre half - clearly so, I'd say.

But, yeah, if I had to pick one - not knowing what set-up I'd use 'em in, I'd pick 'Stuta. Others may - and will - disagree, no doubt.

Spot on. I don't think many would take Vieri over Batigol, I certainly wouldn't at least. At their respective primes there wasn't too much between them but Batigol clearly deserves his glowing reputation for his longer peak. If not for injuries Vieri could have very well matched him but that's hypothetical. That said Vieri would in all likeliness have the better game here like many have stated.

It was actually a toss up between Vieri & Ruud (a personal fav) for my pick but had to go for the better tactical fit really.

 

[Gio]

Agree with what has been said so far. Vieri is a good call for drafts insofar as he can do the big-man-up-front role, but equally can do the play-off-the-shoulder job as well. That way he can exploit either a lack of pace or a lack of strong aerial ability, and few draft defences nail both. Other forwards, even better ones, can be more singular in their threat and feasibly stopped by a defender exceptionally strong in a specific set of attributes.

 

[antohan]

Post injury Barca.

Right version IMO. I share Gio's view that both midfields need a bit of polishing, but that Schuster is the closest you would be to having it balanced. I don't think the early one would work at all, and Real's was far too withdrawn. This team dooesn't need a quarterback.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Thanks, that is what I am looking for. They were still up and coming at the time, fantastic goal nonetheless.. any more examples. I am genuinely interested to know because my knowledge on him is pretty limited to be honest, I didn't realise he was so highly rated.

Here's him scoring twice against Barca for Atletico. It certainly wasn't the finest defence Barcelona have ever fielded but its a big game nonetheless. The video is well worth a watch as it was a cracking game. Rivaldo's goal...



Also, I just have to post one of my favourite goals, Vieri assisted by Baggio against a useful Chile team:

 

[antohan]

The games gone anyway. I'd rather widen my knowledge here and maybe pick him up in a future draft. Thanks gio and @Chesterlestreet.

Fwiw I agree with you Joga, I don't think Batigols wc record is much to write home about but he had some cracking big game club performances which live long in the memory hence making him scan voter friendly. I wanted to know if Veiri had that same sort of history club wise.

Welll, I've picked Vieri a few times, never attempted Batistuta or had an interest in him given the markup he commands. Just look at when they both went in this draft and it's clear to me Joga got the better deal. Vieri has won two drafts and been in the final twice AFAIK (one win and one runner-up for me, think the same is the case with Gio?), I don't think Batistuta ever got close to that.

Most teams tend to go for lone centreforwards to lead the line. With that in mind, Vieri is a better package and in Joga's team I would play Vieri ahead of Batistuta, no two ways about it. I don't really like Batistuta upfront alone, maybe I'm biased from seeing him come through the ranks as an AM, but I always felt he was better off with a partner. In fact, I'd take Crespo ahead of Batistuta as a lone man upfront.

The point overall though isn't who is better (I think both of you have the striker that better suits you and how you would play the game) but who is more likely to score, and Vieri has an easier job here. Three of your four defenders were best known for their attacking play/projection. Not bad defenders, but I can see Carvalho thinking about your mum quite a lot. I don't see such isssues at the other end.

Overall, you win the flanks, but he wins the middle back to front (better spine, bar the keeper). Ultimately, goals are scored through the middle. Stretching play is a good way of opening up the middle, but I don't see your flank superiority adding a differential that would stretch him enough to make him more vulnerable than you.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Right version IMO. I share Gio's view that both midfields need a bit of polishing, but that Schuster is the closest you would be to having it balanced. I don't think the early one would work at all, and Real's was far too withdrawn. This team dooesn't need a quarterback.

In what aspects do you think it needs polishing. I was of the impression that it is fine enough balance wise as it is.

 

[antohan]

In what aspects do you think it needs polishing. I was of the impression that it is fine enough balance wise as it is.

Mascherano could be improved on. The big issue though was Which Schuster, the other two would imbalance it to top heavy or overly cautious.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Mascherano could be improved on. The big issue though was Which Schuster, the other two would imbalance it to top heavy or overly cautious.

Agreed. Mascherano was forced since there weren't too many other options in the last round.

I initially had a headache trying to fit in Suárez and Schuster in their 'perceived' best roles esp in this match. Schuster as the AM that he's perceived as and Suárez as the La Grande Inter's deeper metronome version. When in truth Schuster is as complete as they come and Suárez was equally brilliant as a goalscoring playmaking midfielder winning the Ballon d'oR ahead of Puskas and Di Stefano in this role.

Schuster also has precedence in dovetailing beautifully with Maradona (another goalscoring playmaking forward-midfielder, with Suárez arguably better than that version of El Pibe) pulling the strings in midfield without really being understated or playing second fiddle to Maradona and nullifying his effectiveness by any means. In fact they both enhanced each other. Shame injuries (Butcher of Bilbao and Hepatitis ) and Maradona falling out cut short that partnership.

Also have the option of playing Schuster in a more unleashed free attacking midfielder role (post Maradona La liga winning role or pre injury role) with the ability to drop back and help the midfield with Suárez playing his trademark deeper role in matches calling for that. So it's great to have that tactical flexibility.

So I was surprised about the lack of balance view as I had different specialized incarnations of both and not just pure 'limited' playmaking versions with ability to play only a singular role, which I hope am using correctly. Obviously not going to use hybrid versions which would be unfair before someone misinterprets my intentions.

 

[antohan]

Agreed. Mascherano was forced since there weren't too many other options in the last round.

I initially had a headache trying to fit in Suárez and Schuster in their 'perceived' best roles esp in this match. Schuster as the AM that he's perceived as and Suárez as the La Grande Inter's deeper metronome version. When in truth Schuster is as complete as they come and Suárez was equally brilliant as a goalscoring playmaking midfielder winning the Ballon d'oR ahead of Puskas and Di Stefano in this role.

Schuster also has precedence in dovetailing beautifully with Maradona (another goalscoring playmaking forward-midfielder, with Suárez arguably better than that version of El Pibe) pulling the strings in midfield without really being understated or playing second fiddle to Maradona and nullifying his effectiveness by any means. In fact they both enhanced each other. Shame injuries (Butcher of Bilbao and Hepatitis ) and Maradona falling out cut short that partnership.

Also have the option of playing Schuster in a more unleashed free attacking midfielder role (post Maradona La liga winning role or pre injury role) with the ability to drop back and help the midfield with Suárez playing his trademark deeper role in matches calling for that. So it's great to have that tactical flexibility.

So I was surprised about the lack of balance view as I had different specialized incarnations of both and not just pure 'limited' playmaking versions with ability to play only a singular role, which I hope am using correctly. Obviously not going to use hybrid versions which would be unfair before someone misinterprets my intentions.

Good luck is all I can say. I think I've picked Bernd three times now and I get the distinct impression people just overlook him. Early stages? Fine. Further down the line he doesn't get the credit he is due, let alone the one you need from someone whose role can only ever be a pivotal one. He is not one to have as "one more guy in midfield", not if you are honest about it.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Good luck is all I can say. I think I've picked Bernd three times now and I get the distinct impression people just overlook him. Early stages? Fine. Further down the line he doesn't get the credit he is due, let alone the one you need from someone whose role can only ever be a pivotal one. He is not one to have as "one more guy in midfield", not if you are honest about it.

I know, he gets criminally underrated. Absolutely love him as a player. So complete, talented and with the rugged winning mentality.

I even picked him as my 2nd pick ahead of Breitenigge, Brehme and Vogts in the manager draft. Not one of my finest moments but I couldn't afford to lose him with Matthäus already gone and I just really rate him very highly. The only German midfielder who was more talented and a better playmaker than him was Netzer (who also doesn't get the recognition) imo.

I generally don't care about the scan voter and underappreciated thing but I had to for my 3rd midfielder. I was this close to picking Szymaniak but a midfield with him, Suárez and Schuster? Might as well pack my bags despite their obvious quality. Went for Burgnich instead .

I even went for Mascherano, hoping his recent WC performances would be fresh in people's minds but that doesn't seem to be the case. Hope no one watched the Barca game yesterday . Seriously wonder what was going through their minds... Buying one of the best, if not the best, DM in the world and sticking him in defense

 

[MJJ]

Went for joga in the end, also dont really get the criticism of mascherano. Is one of the finest DMs of the modern generation.

 

[Skizzo]

I know, he gets criminally underrated. Absolutely love him as a player. So complete, talented and with the rugged winning mentality.

I even picked him as my 2nd pick ahead of Breitenigge, Brehme and Vogts in the manager draft. Not one of my finest moments but I couldn't afford to lose him with Matthäus already gone and I just really rate him very highly. The only German midfielder who was more talented and a better playmaker than him was Netzer (who also doesn't get the recognition) imo.

 

[Joga Bonito]

It backfired spectacularly for me with my attack always being a sore point and I should have obviously gone for Rummenigge instead of Schuster. We screwed each other's team so hard . Simonsen .

Great game @Raees . Really enjoyed debating with you. Minimum dirt slinging and an enjoyable discussion. It's a shame but if you just had Breitner in midfield and had gone for Evra in the last round, it would have been much closer with you winning even. That's how ridiculously tight this match was despite the eventual scoreline which flatters me and is harsh.

 

[Skizzo]

It backfired spectacularly for me with my attack always being a sore point and I should have obviously gone for Rummenigge instead of Schuster. We screwed each other's team so hard . Simonsen .

Great game @Raees . Really enjoyed debating with you. Minimum dirt slinging and an enjoyable discussion. It's a shame but if you just had Breitner in midfield and had gone for Evra in the last round, it would have been much closer with you winning even. That's how ridiculously tight this match was despite the eventual scoreline which flatters me and is harsh.

We certainly did. Too good a manager to leave with a full pool...but just not quite strong enough to beat when split up against some of the others. Ah well..it was fun plotting against each other

Thought this might have been a bit closer. Although as often is the case, if 100 people decide one team just barely edges it, it can make it look a one sided result.

Good game to both of you. Some great discussions.

 

[Raees]

Great game @Joga Bonito Upon reflection, nailing a left back would've helped majorly but the way the last few rounds went I couldn't get my hands on Schnellinger who I had my eye on all along. Should have got a stop gap in like Evra or Panucci.

Thoughts on your side going forward. ..

I too don't see the Mascherano issue. I personally. . Love him think hes sublime and that your midfield is probably the best balanced in this draft.

Keeper needs an upgrade.

id make one of your fullbacks more attacking, both of them is defensive overkill especially if you have such a strong CB pairing and Mascherano covering.

Aside from that.. don't really see much areas for upgrades unless a goat is available on wings or up top.

Best of luck mate.

@Pat_Mustard thanks for the video and the rest of you for your analysis through out. Tbh pre match I had no hope but I think it was a fair result, as anto said his spine was simply stronger.

 

[Raees]

Oh and on the Czibor v Dzajic point, now we can talk more objectively and without a game on. I genuinely do rate Dzajic higher. . I think Czibor is quicker but he doesn't have the same level of presence of Dzajic.

I'd need to dig up more footage on Czibor to perhaps change my mind but on what I have seen.. Dzajic could run teams from his flank. Most places I researched Dzajic seemed to be higher placed and even Beckenbauer was miffed that Bestie got the ballon d'or ahead of him.

It's like trying to compare Giggs v Robben, the latter has more influence and is seen as the reference point in sides he plays in.. Czibor gets mentioned as part of a collective, Dzajic is seen as a one man band.. and his match clips definitely back up that perception.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Great game @Joga Bonito Upon reflection, nailing a left back would've helped majorly but the way the last few rounds went I couldn't get my hands on Schnellinger who I had my eye on all along. Should have got a stop gap in like Evra or Panucci.

Thoughts on your side going forward. ..

I too don't see the Mascherano issue. I personally. . Love him think hes sublime and that your midfield is probably the best balanced in this draft.

Keeper needs an upgrade.

id make one of your fullbacks more attacking, both of them is defensive overkill especially if you have such a strong CB pairing and Mascherano covering.

Aside from that.. don't really see much areas for upgrades unless a goat is available on wings or up top.

It's a real dilemma. Obviously one of my pick is reserved for a GK and the other one is tough to decide.

I could do with an attacking LB for a more balanced back line but at least Cole is recognised for his defensive qualities.

Mascherano on the other hand, is a contentious subject in that some don't rate him highly enough. Frankly I think he wouldn't look out of place in a final with the right set up and midfield. I can hardly think of too many pure DMs better than him in recent history. Gattuso springs to mind but that's about it. He was one of the best performers in WC 2014 and was Argentina's leader and arguably their best player throughout the tournament.

It's frankly retarded what Barcelona is doing with him. Why the feck did they even want to buy him? Just lunacy. His time there isn't helping his cause at all.

 

[Raees]

It's a real dilemma. Obviously one of my pick is reserved for a GK and the other one is tough to decide.

I could do with an attacking LB for a more balanced back line but at least Cole is recognised for his defensive qualities.

Mascherano on the other hand, is a contentious subject in that some don't rate him highly enough. Frankly I think he wouldn't look out of place in a final with the right set up and midfield. I can hardly think of too many pure DMs better than him in recent history. Gattuso springs to mind but that's about it. He was one of the best performers in WC 2014 and was Argentina's leader and arguably their best player throughout the tournament.

It's frankly retarded what Barcelona is doing with him. Why the feck did they even want to buy him? Just lunacy. His time there isn't helping his cause at all.

I don't rate Gattuso as highly as him. I would keep him personally unless a stronger midfielder is available. You could take Effenberg back? Depends on what players become available. I hate upgrading keepers!

 

[Gio]

I am comfortable with Mascherano in that role going forward. It's clearly defined, plays to his strengths, and his pedigree at the job hasn't been bettered in many a year.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Oh and on the Czibor v Dzajic point, now we can talk more objectively and without a game on. I genuinely do rate Dzajic higher. . I think Czibor is quicker but he doesn't have the same level of presence of Dzajic.

I'd need to dig up more footage on Czibor to perhaps change my mind but on what I have seen.. Dzajic could run teams from his flank. Most places I researched Dzajic seemed to be higher placed and even Beckenbauer was miffed that Bestie got the ballon d'or ahead of him.

It's like trying to compare Giggs v Robben, the latter has more influence and is seen as the reference point in sides he plays in.. Czibor gets mentioned as part of a collective, Dzajic is seen as a one man band.. and his match clips definitely back up that perception.

Like Balu aptly said it is just hard to compare them because of the drastically different circumstances they found themselves in.

I have to dispute the stand out point tbh. It's no fault of Czibor that he played with Bozsik, Puskas, Hideguti and Kocsis for Hungary and Suárez, Kubala and Kocsis for Barca. Same thing for Giggs. If you manage to stand out from a truly outrageous team like Di Stefano, Garrincha, Best, Pele etc did then you truly are special and have a legitimate claim to be a proper all time top 5-10 GOAT imo. Or if you manage to drag a mediocre group of players to the top on the biggest of occasions. Tough criteria but it has to be that way for an all time top tier GOAT.

Moreover, how do we know that Czibor wouldn't have performed as well as or even better than Dzajic did for that Yugoslavia & Red Star teams, with everything going through him and the team built around him, instead of just being a vital cog in a star studded team?

Would Dzajic have looked as brilliant as he did for those teams if he played for Hungary and Barça amongst those all time greats? He might very well have but we can't know for sure.

It's a shame that his best performances came in the Euros. Whilst still a great competition, it's a notch below the European Cup and WC. Take Netzer for example, he performed exceptionally for Germany in Euro 1972, outshining both Müller and Beckenbauer. He was equally magnificent for Gladbach but ultimately he doesn't get the plaudits he deserves for the lack of WC appearances. Same thing for Schuster despite bossing the midfield for 3 of Spain's biggest clubs and winning the Euro 1980 being the star of the team as a precocious 20 year old.

Look at Masopust, Varela and Florian Albert, I know feck all about their club careers but you kind of rate them due to their WC performances. It is absolutely unfair on some players but both these competitions figure heavily when you generally try to gauge a player's 'greatness'. The coorelation also increases heavily the further you go back due to the lack of footage and info that we possess. Obviously there are counter examples but few if I'm not wrong.

I am curious to know more about Dzajic's European Cup and WC performances though and wouldn't mind reading about it if you have more info on that. I just read about the semi final loss due to the bribe in the last page.

On the flipside, Dzajic must have clearly been a talented player to take his unfancied team that far in the Euros, winning the ballon d'Or bronze ball and also for not looking out of place against Camacho and Vogts, two rock solid defensive FBs. If I'm not wrong both eventually got the better of him but it was a intense battle with Dzajic giving them twisted blood at times.

I would rate him as a great left winger but just not someone who's on par with the best of the best. Just think one needs to do more. Who knows Dzajic might have had it in him but didn't have the right platforms to exhibit this.

 

[Raees]

I am comfortable with Mascherano in that role going forward. It's clearly defined, plays to his strengths, and his pedigree at the job hasn't been bettered in many a year.

Agreed.

 

[Raees]

Like Balu aptly said it is just hard to compare them because of the drastically differnt circumstances they found themselves in.

I have to dispute the stand out point tbh. It's no fault of Czibor that he played with Bozsik, Puskas, Hideguti and Kocsis for Hungary and Suárez, Kubala and Kocsis for Barca. Same thing for Giggs. If you manage to stand out from a truly outrageous team like Di Stefano, Garrincha, Best, Pele etc did then you truly are special and have a legitimate claim to be a proper all time top 5-10 GOAT imo. Or if you drag mediocre group of players to the top on the biggest of occasions. Tough criteria but it has to be that way for an all time top tier GOAT.

Moreover, how do we know that Czibor wouldn't have performed as well as or even better than Dzajic for that Yugoslavia & Red Star teams, with everything going through him and the team built around him, instead of just being a vital cog in a star studded team?

Would Dzajic have looked as brilliant as he did for those teams, playing for Hungary and Barça amongst those all time greats? He might well have but we can't know for sure.

It's a shame that his best performances came in the Euros. Whilst still a great competition, it's a notch below the European Cup and WC. Take Netzer for example, he performed exceptionally for Germany in Euro 1972, outshining both Muller and Beckenbauer. He was equally magnificent for Gladbach but ultimately he doesn't get the plaudits he deserves for the lack of WC appearances. Same thing for Schuster despite bossing the midfield for 3 of Spain's biggest club and winning the Euro 1980 being the star of the team as a precocious 20 year old.

Look at Masopust, Varela and Florian Albert, I know feck all about their club careers but you kind of rate them due to their WC performances. It is absolutely unfair on some players but both these competitions figure heavily when you generally try to gauge a player's 'greatness'. The coorelation also increases heavily the further you go back due to the lack of footage and info that we possess.

I am curious to know more about Dzajic's European Cup and WC performances though and wouldn't mind reading about it if you have more info on that. I just read about the semi final loss due to the bribe in the last page.

On the flipside, Dzajic must have clearly been a talented player to take his unfancied team that far in the Euros, winning the balloon d'Or bronze ball and also for not looking out of place against Camacho and Vogts, two rock solid defensive FBs. If I'm not wrong both eventually got the better of him but it was a intense battle with Dzajic giving them twisted blood at times.

I would rate him as a great left winger but just not someone who's on par with the best of the best. Just think one needs to do more. Who knows Dzajic might have had it in him but didn't have the right platforms to exhibit this.

Fair points.

 

[RoadTrip]

Trippy! Where have you been in this draft?

Mega busy at work, haven't had a chance t ofollow the drafting. But in a way it's quite fun going into match threads and not knowing what the teams will be and the stories behind them!